Don't Touch My Junk [Archive] - Wilderness Survival Forums

BENESSE

11-22-2010, 10:37 AM

The most sensible op-ed piece I've read so far on the topic of TSA's latest lunacy. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/18/AR2010111804494.html?wpisrc=nl_pmopinions

"Don't touch my junk is the anthem of the modern man, the Tea Party patriot, the late-life libertarian, the midterm election voter. Don't touch my junk, Obamacare - get out of my doctor's examining room, I'm wearing a paper-thin gown slit down the back. Don't touch my junk, Google - Street View is cool, but get off my street. Don't touch my junk, you airport security goon - my package belongs to no one but me, and do you really think I'm a Nigerian nut job preparing for my 72-virgin orgy by blowing my johnson to kingdom come?

That riff is a crowd-pleaser because everyone knows that the entire apparatus of the security line is a national homage to political correctness. Nowhere do more people meekly acquiesce to more useless inconvenience and needless indignity for less purpose. Wizened seniors strain to untie their shoes; beltless salesmen struggle comically to hold up their pants; 3-year-olds scream while being searched insanely for explosives - when everyone, everyone, knows that none of these people is a threat to anyone.
The ultimate idiocy is the full-body screening of the pilot. The pilot doesn't need a bomb or box cutter to bring down a plane. All he has to do is drive it into the water, like the EgyptAir pilot who crashed his plane off Nantucket while intoning "I rely on God," killing all on board.
But we must not bring that up. We pretend that we go through this nonsense as a small price paid to ensure the safety of air travel. Rubbish. This has nothing to do with safety - 95 percent of these inspections, searches, shoe removals and pat-downs are ridiculously unnecessary. The only reason we continue to do this is that people are too cowed to even question the absurd taboo against profiling - when the profile of the airline attacker is narrow, concrete, uniquely definable and universally known. So instead of seeking out terrorists, we seek out tubes of gel in stroller pouches. The junk man's revolt marks the point at which a docile public declares that it will tolerate only so much idiocy. Metal detector? Back-of-the-hand pat? Okay. We will swallow hard and pretend airline attackers are randomly distributed in the population."

Political correctness is quickly becoming the most dangerous threat to our security and God given common sense.

Rick

11-22-2010, 10:54 AM

1. I do agree with profiling. If old, chubby white guys had brought the towers down then I'd have no problem being singled out every time. If you happen to be of Eastern decent then I'm sorry but you need to step over here, please.

2. As for the pat down and the full body scan, if you get a kick out of groping me or seeing me sans clothes, well, then you deserve what you get. Who knows, I may even enjoy it and become your next stalker. If you are opposed to either, I get it and I'll stand behind you 100%. If you feel something, don't worry, it's just me practicing the pat down.

3. If gels and shampoos are so danged dangerous then why do they toss them in the trash can and stand beside that can all day? Shouldn't they be rushed to a bomb disposal unit or to a woman's shelter?

4. I started to wonder about TSA before it was TSA. You remember, back when they asked, "has anyone you don't know asked you to carry on any luggage?" That happens every day, doesn't it? "Excuse me. I can't make this flight but would you mind terribly to carry my briefcase on board for me?"

5. Which line does the sky marshal go through? That's the one I want to stand in. I want to watch that bit of comedy.

6. Does a black belt in karate have to leave his hands at security? How about his feet?

Code Red!! There's a baby in a stroller approaching security.

Justin Case

11-22-2010, 12:00 PM

See This yet ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skkCpnCm7iM

BENESSE

11-22-2010, 01:14 PM

I suppose if I had to choose, freedom grope would be the lesser of two evils than being irradiated, modesty aside.
Wednesday should be interesting. Can't wait to watch from my cushy sofa how "Opting Out" works out across the land. I'm sure there'll be a lot of war stories around the Thanksgiving table by our flying relatives.

Justin Case

11-22-2010, 01:23 PM

Heck, i would look forward to a pat down ! lol

Rick

11-22-2010, 01:25 PM

Maybe we should stop by the airport just to be patted down? Just tell them we're here for the free grope. The older I get the more I can dream up.

crashdive123

11-22-2010, 01:28 PM

You just know that some sleaze bag criminal defense attorney (no offense Ken) is going to use the TSA grope as an example of government sanctioned groping to get his/her client off from a molestation charge.

nell67

11-22-2010, 01:50 PM

Plain and simple,I refuse to pay money to allow some jerk to get their jollies groping my body,if you are touching me,it's because I WANT you to,not because I chose flying as a quicker way of getting to a destination.

I have flown once in my life,boarded 4 planes on that trip,and was singled out 4 times for extra security checks,so I am sure that would mean for me 4 different people groping my person if I chose to fly again.Not gonna happen.

SARKY

11-22-2010, 02:01 PM

Before TSA was, and after I retired from the Navy, I applied for a job at an airport security company. Now remember I was IN aviation for 15 years and SERE for 5. And at SERE we did base incursions to test their security. To say I was qualified for the job I had applied for would be moot. I came to them with 20 years experience both hands on and instructing. But NO they said I wanted too much money. I was asking for the same pay I retired at 36K , I didn't need any medical plan because of VA. Their loss!
Then when TSA was formed I went down and applied, passed all all their tests and even had a still valid TS clearance. I should have known it was a joke when they told me there would be no preferance to vets. I had applied for a supervisor position. I get a call 9 months later asking me if I want a part time baggage inspector job. What the hell, did you bother reading my application??? They have their collective heads so far up their asses they can't see squat!

Alaskan Survivalist

11-22-2010, 02:05 PM

I agree and quit flying when they started making me remove my shoes. That was the limit of my submission and gave away my Las Vegas time share I used to use 3 weeks a year. We still have the power to determine how much we will tolerate. Excersise it or....loose it!

Justin Case

11-22-2010, 02:22 PM

I have been frisked by the cops lots of times,,,all in the name of "Officer safety" no big deal..... I couldn't care less if TSA gave me a pat down,, I have more of a problem with how long it takes to get through security,,

every time you go into a federal building or a courthouse you must pass through a scanner,, so what if you have to do it at airports too,, I wonder if people would prefer NO security checks before letting people on planes,,?

BENESSE

11-22-2010, 02:29 PM

Israel has figured it out.
They don't give a flying fig about racial profiling, psychological profiling or PCness, much to their success. We could learn a great deal from them.

Rick

11-22-2010, 02:34 PM

BENESSE

11-22-2010, 02:44 PM

BEN-GURION AIRPORT, Israel

Airport security around the world isn't good enough, an Israeli airport official said Tuesday while showing international experts Israel's near-legendary methods as a possible solution.

Israel, which prides itself on airport and airplane security, showed off robots and procedures to keep passengers safe. One method has been condemned in other countries — profiling.
Nahum Liss of the Israeli Airports Authority said Israel's heavily fortified international airport is the most protected in the world, speaking as authorities on three continents were investigating cargo bombs intercepted at airports last week in Britain and Dubai.
A confident Liss told about 50 visiting security experts that security procedures at Ben-Gurion International Airport "are built in order to confront this kind of threat."
Israel is known for its stringent airport security, the result of a string of Palestinian attacks on Israeli planes in the 1970s.
Before approaching the ticket counter, passengers are thoroughly questioned by "selectors" who look for travelers who match a suspicious profile.
"In the U.S., profiling is a bad word," Liss said, but he defended the practice, saying it is done by "intelligent, motivated" university students who served in Israel's military and can identify passengers who could pose a potential risk.
Liss said that heightened screening of passengers and carry-on luggage in international airports has pushed terror organizations to look for other vulnerable areas to attack at airports. He said many of the world's airports do not properly secure their perimeters.
"We need to protect our back door as well," said Liss, offering a look at an advanced technique the Israelis are working on.
The visitors, including experts from the U.S. and Europe, watched as security officers staged a live simulation, stopping three armed "terrorists" who broke through a rear gate.
Then they observed an unmanned vehicle patrolling the airport perimeter by remote control — a technology soon to be introduced at the Israeli airport.
Routine security procedures start far away from the terminal.
Before even entering the airport, all cars are stopped for a security check by armed guards. Cameras scan license plates to match them with a database of suspicious vehicles. Security officials said it's one of the many security filters passengers pass before boarding flights, some of them unknown to the passengers and many others still kept secret.
The Israeli airport's spokesman's unit said the main terminal is equipped with 700 closed-circuit cameras and is fortified against explosions. The large glass wall at the front and even the trash cans inside are bombproof, they said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101102/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_airport_security

kyratshooter

11-22-2010, 02:47 PM

Not the same kind of scanner, JC.

I would not want either of my granddaughters subjected to a pat down nor would I want them to go through the scanner regardless of who is seeing the picture or how long the picture is retained. There are some things that go to common decency.

I have yet to see any studies that proclaim an improvement in interception of banned items using these new methods.

Even more important Rick, if YOU patted down your grandaughters like TSA is doing you would be placed on the sex offender list of your state.

These pat downs fill all the requirements fitting the definition of rape.

This is government sanctioned rape in the "interest of public safty".

I have flown once in the past 20 years and I doubt that I will ever fly again. Going through the scanner is no big deal to me. If I flew several times a month or week it would be a health concern.

The pilots and aircrew have valid arguments. They should be exempt due to government ignorence and everyone's BS indicators shoud be going off like crazy!!!

!!!PILOTS ARE ALLOWED TO BE ARMED IN THE COCKPIT!!!!

Trabitha

11-22-2010, 02:54 PM

This is how I see all of this...

When you board a commercial airliner, you are in essence boarding a "cruise missile". I'm all for the government actually doing what they are SUPPOSED to do in this regard. Our government is supposed to protect us, why aren't we putting more focus on things that they are doing and their not supposed to be doing?

Yes, rights are important, and when American's are the only ones that ride these airplanes, and Americans aren't being found to be following some of these terror groups, I'm all for giving travelers a break. But, we've seen time and time again that full blooded American's "switching sides", eliminating the ability to profile even if they were willing to.
Sadly there are far too many dishonest people in this world, and the idea of using children to commit crimes is NOT outside their thought process. If we change the rules so children are not searched when they set off the alarm, because they are crying...where do you think the terrorists will hide their goods?

Finally, I've flown many times since 9/11 and regardless of my small stature, blue eyes, and child in tow, I am ALWAYS pulled out of the line to be searched. My CHILD is always pulled out of the line to be searched. Sadly TSA's job does not stop with stopping terrorists from entering this country, them must also stop or try to stop drug trafficking, and it has been proven for decades that they use children to traffic on commercial airlines.

Am I a "sheep" for thinking this way? I don't think so...but I've heard my share of name calling for it. My logic? Let them do their jobs. Their jobs are to lessen the likelihood of another "Underwear bomber" or "9/11" and to lessen the use of children in crimes.
I think that if we lived in a world where we could believe that everyone had good morals and that we could all rely on each other...sure...by all means demand TSA lay off. However...we don't. We live in a world where people who hate us, USE us to kill others. Airline attacks kill not only those on the plane, but those below them. We KNOW our airlines can be used as weapons, and it's irresponsible to ignore that fact.

It's irritating to be delayed when you forget to pack your carryon correctly, or you set off the alarm, but other than that...is it really worth putting us all in an unsafe position?

I'll admit, that they need to be more understanding of some and more delicate with others...but I think the other side should be seen too. Those who ARE being delicate and understanding are being portrayed all over the web in a terrible light. Thank God for those stupid phone cameras. Ugh. Not a fan...
We live in a world, where too much is being seen out of context in an attempt to enflame the situation. We live in a world where too many WANT us to fight amongst each other, over things that have been fabricated, because it may help them politically.

Some of the crap that this group is upset about, is not all fact and because the are falling for this sort of thing, they are harming their own cause.

That is all. ;) Just thought I would share my POV.

Alaskan Survivalist

11-22-2010, 02:59 PM

The problem with the "it's no so bad, since they aready.." aguement is what's coming next after you get used to this?

BENESSE

11-22-2010, 03:04 PM

T, I'm all for them doing what they're supposed to do--they're just not being smart about it. The Israelis are.
A lot of who shot John is no substitute for real intelligence work.

Alaskan Survivalist

11-22-2010, 03:16 PM

Rush Limba just made the comment that if this is the reaction to the underwear bomber the terrorists are probalby laughing and the next effort will be a woman Tampax bomber to see how we react. Imagine that.

BigDaddy

11-22-2010, 03:17 PM

My generation was told to ‘Just Say NO!’ and taught to ‘never talk to strangers’. And now we are supposed to let our children get publicly molested by some pervert with a GED?!?

Listen…Can you hear that??? That’s the rest of the world…Laughing at us!

Trabitha

11-22-2010, 03:29 PM

T, I'm all for them doing what they're supposed to do--they're just not being smart about it. The Israelis are.
A lot of who shot John is no substitute for real intelligence work.

Oh, I agree. If we used Israel as an example...on a LOT of things...I think we would be better off. However, you know our government. They really suck at this kind of thing, because it gets too politicized.
Plus the PC crew will never allow for profiling in this country. *roll eyes*
Not like it matters now though. We've seen that the enemy can be blond haired and blue eyed. Profiling just seems to be a waste. Not to mention they will just change what they are doing and who they are recruiting. It's just a never ending battle.

I just see too many people, (not here, in general) that seem to think that they shouldn't be checked at all. FOX had a story of a flight attendant that set off the alarm and when it turned out to be a prosthetic, the TSA agent needed to make SURE that it was a prosthetic, so agent took her to a private room so that the attendant could show her discretely. That's the way it SHOULD have been handled. My husband had medical "equipment" on him that he needed to wear through security. He had to prove that it was medical equipment (doctors always give you a card), and show it to security. What if they just took your word for it...ya know?
It just seems that there are far too many nieve people in this world now days...

BENESSE

11-22-2010, 03:38 PM

Really worth reading:

While North America's airports groan under the weight of another sea-change in security protocols, one word keeps popping out of the mouths of experts: Israelification.
That is, how can we make our airports more like Israel's, which deal with far greater terror threat with far less inconvenience.
"It is mindboggling for us Israelis to look at what happens in North America, because we went through this 50 years ago," said Rafi Sela, the president of AR Challenges, a global transportation security consultancy. He's worked with the RCMP, the U.S. Navy Seals and airports around the world.
"Israelis, unlike Canadians and Americans, don't take s--- from anybody. When the security agency in Israel (the ISA) started to tighten security and we had to wait in line for — not for hours — but 30 or 40 minutes, all hell broke loose here. We said, 'We're not going to do this. You're going to find a way that will take care of security without touching the efficiency of the airport."
That, in a nutshell is "Israelification" - a system that protects life and limb without annoying you to death.

Despite facing dozens of potential threats each day, the security set-up at Israel's largest hub, Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport, has not been breached since 2002, when a passenger mistakenly carried a handgun onto a flight. How do they manage that?
"The first thing you do is to look at who is coming into your airport," said Sela.
The first layer of actual security that greets travellers at Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion International Airport is a roadside check. All drivers are stopped and asked two questions: How are you? Where are you coming from?
"Two benign questions. The questions aren't important. The way people act when they answer them is," Sela said.
Officers are looking for nervousness or other signs of "distress" — behavioural profiling. Sela rejects the argument that profiling is discriminatory.
"The word 'profiling' is a political invention by people who don't want to do security," he said. "To us, it doesn't matter if he's black, white, young or old. It's just his behaviour. So what kind of privacy am I really stepping on when I'm doing this?"
Once you've parked your car or gotten off your bus, you pass through the second and third security perimeters.
Armed guards outside the terminal are trained to observe passengers as they move toward the doors, again looking for odd behaviour. At Ben Gurion's half-dozen entrances, another layer of security are watching. At this point, some travellers will be randomly taken aside, and their person and their luggage run through a magnometer.
"This is to see that you don't have heavy metals on you or something that looks suspicious," said Sela.
You are now in the terminal. As you approach your airline check-in desk, a trained interviewer takes your passport and ticket. They ask a series of questions: Who packed your luggage? Has it left your side?
"The whole time, they are looking into your eyes — which is very embarrassing. But this is one of the ways they figure out if you are suspicious or not. It takes 20, 25 seconds," said Sela.
Lines are staggered. People are not allowed to bunch up into inviting targets for a bomber who has gotten this far.
At the check-in desk, your luggage is scanned immediately in a purpose-built area. Sela plays devil's advocate — what if you have escaped the attention of the first four layers of security, and now try to pass a bag with a bomb in it?
"I once put this question to Jacques Duchesneau (the former head of the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority): say there is a bag with play-doh in it and two pens stuck in the play-doh. That is 'Bombs 101' to a screener. I asked Ducheneau, 'What would you do?' And he said, 'Evacuate the terminal.' And I said, 'Oh. My. God.'
"Take Pearson. Do you know how many people are in the terminal at all times? Many thousands. Let's say I'm (doing an evacuation) without panic — which will never happen. But let's say this is the case. How long will it take? Nobody thought about it. I said, 'Two days.'"
A screener at Ben-Gurion has a pair of better options.
First, the screening area is surrounded by contoured, blast-proof glass that can contain the detonation of up to 100 kilos of plastic explosive. Only the few dozen people within the screening area need be removed, and only to a point a few metres away.
Second, all the screening areas contain 'bomb boxes'. If a screener spots a suspect bag, he/she is trained to pick it up and place it in the box, which is blast proof. A bomb squad arrives shortly and wheels the box away for further investigation.
"This is a very small simple example of how we can simply stop a problem that would cripple one of your airports," Sela said.
Five security layers down: you now finally arrive at the only one which Ben-Gurion Airport shares with Pearson — the body and hand-luggage check.
"But here it is done completely, absolutely 180 degrees differently than it is done in North America," Sela said.
"First, it's fast — there's almost no line. That's because they're not looking for liquids, they're not looking at your shoes. They're not looking for everything they look for in North America. They just look at you," said Sela. "Even today with the heightened security in North America, they will check your items to death. But they will never look at you, at how you behave. They will never look into your eyes ... and that's how you figure out the bad guys from the good guys."
That's the process — six layers, four hard, two soft. The goal at Ben-Gurion is to move fliers from the parking lot to the airport lounge in a maximum of 25 minutes.
This doesn't begin to cover the off-site security net that failed so spectacularly in targeting would-be Flight 253 bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab — intelligence. In Israel, Sela said, a coordinated intelligence gathering operation produces a constantly evolving series of threat analyses and vulnerability studies.
"There is absolutely no intelligence and threat analysis done in Canada or the United States," Sela said. "Absolutely none."
But even without the intelligence, Sela maintains, Abdulmutallab would not have gotten past Ben Gurion Airport's behavioural profilers.
So. Eight years after 9/11, why are we still so reactive, so un-Israelified?
Working hard to dampen his outrage, Sela first blames our leaders, and then ourselves.
"We have a saying in Hebrew that it's much easier to look for a lost key under the light, than to look for the key where you actually lost it, because it's dark over there. That's exactly how (North American airport security officials) act," Sela said. "You can easily do what we do. You don't have to replace anything. You have to add just a little bit — technology, training. But you have to completely change the way you go about doing airport security. And that is something that the bureaucrats have a problem with. They are very well enclosed in their own concept."
And rather than fear, he suggests that outrage would be a far more powerful spur to provoking that change.
"Do you know why Israelis are so calm? We have brutal terror attacks on our civilians and still, life in Israel is pretty good. The reason is that people trust their defence forces, their police, their response teams and the security agencies. They know they're doing a good job. You can't say the same thing about Americans and Canadians. They don't trust anybody," Sela said. "But they say, 'So far, so good'. Then if something happens, all hell breaks loose and you've spent eight hours in an airport. Which is ridiculous. Not justifiable
"But, what can you do? Americans and Canadians are nice people and they will do anything because they were told to do so and because they don't know any different."

http://www.thestar.com/printarticle/744199

Alaskan Survivalist

11-22-2010, 03:42 PM

Just think of the kind of persons that will be applying for this job.

Justin Case

11-22-2010, 03:55 PM

Sarge47

11-22-2010, 06:27 PM

Sorry if this sounds a bit off-color, but I see an opportunity here to have a little fun. 1st, all of you guys that are going to fly, get to your nearest adult book-store and buy a huge fake penis. Attach it properly in your groin area & when they scan you just smile like the Cheshire cat! Ladies do the same, then watch the expression on the person doing the scan's face. If it's a guy, say: ''You're disappointed, aren't you?"

Next, if you're a guy & you opt for the "pat-down" & you get a male, look at him adoringly while he does his job & say: "Hey, you got great hands! Do you work out?"

Ladies, keep the fake male organ in place & watch the expression on their face!

Dang, I wish I didn't hate to fly, this sounds like fun! :shifty:

BENESSE

11-22-2010, 06:47 PM

I'll do it (even make sound effects as in 'When Harry Met Sally" diner scene) only if you stand on the side and film it and Ken gets me out of jail for free when they arrest me.

2dumb2kwit

11-22-2010, 07:02 PM

I'll do it (even make sound effects as in 'When Harry Met Sally" diner scene) only if you stand on the side and film it and Ken gets me out of jail for free when they arrest me.

Um....I don't want to sound like a pig......but....can I get a copy of that?:whistling:

crashdive123

11-22-2010, 07:32 PM

I watched a clip on the news tonight where a TSA official (fairly high up I think) said <<this is as close to a quote that I can remember>> Of course people don't want their Fourth Amendment rights violated. It's just something that they are going to have to accept.

Really? What other Constitutional rights are some group of bureaucrats going to decide that we have to accept?

Rick

11-22-2010, 07:39 PM

Well I'm certainly glad they backed off on patting the pilots down. Lord knows we don't want the guy drivin' the bus to carry a bomb on board. Hello? He's flyin' the plane! Why would he need a bomb when he can just fly it into the ground? Patting him/her down made so much sense. Not.

LowKey

11-22-2010, 08:30 PM

I've flown quite a bit in the past. Not so much recently.

You can't find a single instance on the TSA website or anywhere else that gives you statistics on how many smugglers/felons/terrorists these security measures have stopped.

Are they merely going overboard in the interests of making it difficult for a terrorist to get aboard a plane? While making it uncomfortable for the 99.9% of people just trying to get from here to there?

Has anyone done the math? How many planes go down in a year due to mechanical failure? Now how many to terrorists BEFORE all this pat down, underwear scanning nonsense? Getting on a plane in itself is putting an exceptional amount of trust in a huge, overworked piece of machinery. You're probably more like to die in a non-terrorist related crash. They roll em in, fuel em up and send em out, probably with far less of a pat down than you are going to get...

How much does one of these scanners cost? Who has the contract? Who is getting rich?
(edit: Raytheon...)

I'd begin to wonder if my child was repeatedly singled out for pat down...

I'm hoping there is a big stink on Wednesday. Simply because I am tired of the Government Red Tape BS that surrounds every aspect of our lives. But there won't be. I've heard it all before. Big plans for big protests that fizzled because everyone wants to be where they are going or had other plans. Unless there are an awful lot of people buying tickets to not get to their destinations, the only thing I can really see happening is the sheep getting angry at any person who opts out (even though it is their right) rather than at the TSA.

Edit: and in scoping around the internet on this topic the information that, nationwide, there are 385 machines but 2100 security lanes means that 1715 lanes of people aren't being invasively patted down or scanned. They are simply taking off their shoes and going through the metal detector, business as usual. And if TSA is still using metal detector and x-ray, and feel it is good enough for over 81% of the travelers, why are they even using the pat downs and FBScanners?????

Now a real protest I'd like to see is all these folks who see nothing wrong with the full body scanner demanding the people on their flight going through one rather than "just a metal detector and luggage x-ray" so they'll feel safe on the plane. Or they should refuse to get on the plane. To do less is hypocrisy.

SARKY

11-22-2010, 10:35 PM

What really pisses me off is most of these morons took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against ALL enemies foreign and domestic. But feel it is OK to impose on our Constitutional rights. Judge Napolitano was on ORiely and spoke to this, comparing it to the right of a woman to get an abortion. I am para phrasing here, "your body is yours and no one has the right to touch it or look at it(naked) without your permission, as such you have the right to refuse both being irradiated and fondled by TSA.

LowKey

11-22-2010, 10:37 PM

But they didn't promise to protect the Constitution from themselves, whom they see as neither an enemy nor as doing wrong.

RunsWithDeer

11-24-2010, 05:33 PM

I fly at least twice a month, and have gone through the new full body scanners many times. I have no problem with them.
Security lines move very quickly when everyone does what they are supposed to. I know enough to remove anything that will set off either a scanner or the metal detectors, and I can't remember the last time I had to get a pat down. This is all blown way out of proportion. The new pat down is no different that what most other countries already do. I am glad they have increased the level of screeening to keep our planes safe. We need to do even more, there are a lot of bad people out there.

LowKey

11-24-2010, 08:57 PM

This is always a 50/50 argument.
And the only one that wins is the terrorist.

Rick

11-24-2010, 08:59 PM

I fly at least twice a month, and have gone through the new full body scanners many times. I have no problem with them.

Yeah? Have you looked in the mirror lately? All your fur fell off in the back. Nothin' worse than a naked wolverine.

I think I'll force them to pat me down THEN ask to go through the scanner. That will mess with them.

Justin Case

11-24-2010, 09:00 PM

some people pay to have their junk touched,,,,, just sayin ,, lol

BENESSE

11-24-2010, 09:05 PM

At the airport?

Pal334

11-24-2010, 09:06 PM

Israel has figured it out.
They don't give a flying fig about racial profiling, psychological profiling or PCness, much to their success. We could learn a great deal from them.

You hit it directly on the head. The Israelis don't pat everyone down, they rely on profiling, and they interview EVERY SINGLE PASSENGER, the interviews are conducted by trained professionals. They can and do deny passage to anyone that is in their opinion may be a threat. Think of the last time they had an airborne problem. Having these low paid unprofessional louts doing our security is ludicrous

Rick

11-24-2010, 09:07 PM

Would you rather have high paid unprofessional louts doing it?

BENESSE

11-24-2010, 09:11 PM

We already do!
They are paid too highly for being unprofessional, louts or otherwise.

DOGMAN

11-25-2010, 11:16 AM

Justin Case

11-25-2010, 11:21 AM

Rick

11-25-2010, 01:32 PM

I was wondering, what if I displayed my junk for inspection? You think that would help them? Might get through security faster.

crashdive123

11-25-2010, 02:06 PM

I dont think anyones constitutional "Rights" are being violated, and I don't think anyone is being "raped"...

Flying is a choice! You decide to "fly the friendly skies"...no one is making you do it. If its required for your job- well, quit your job and get a job that doesnt require air travel-...its plain and simple- if you want to fly- you have to go through the checks...There are highways and interstate systems that you can travel on in the comfort of your own vehicle, or you can even fly your own plane without going through the security checks. But, if you want to fly "commercially" you gotta go through the security checks.

As far as the workers getting their jollies by patting YOU down....get over yourself. Go to the airport and look at the people....Most of us Americans are fat and ugly....nobody is going to enjoy patting me, Rick, Crash, Ken or Sourdough down...very few of the people traveling commercially are Victoria's Secret models....most are middle aged slightly overweight wonks that nobody (including their spouses) wants to see nude- much less touch!

I disagree. I agree that nobody has to fly and that security is important. The methods that the Federal Government are employing to provide that security are suspect. Since it is the Federal Government mandating this, I believe it is a violation of 4th Amendment Rights.

If you follow the money on how the body scanners were selected it may raise concern. The fact that these more aggressive pat downs are in response to something that happened almost a year ago (the underwear bomber is the reason being given) also raises concerns (for me). The fact that the materials used in that bomb cannot be detected by the technology being used concerns me. The pat down procedures being employed would, in any other instance constitute sexual assault. If an adult consents to that pat down - fine. Having a minor child being subjected to that is criminal. The fact that once you enter the "process" and then decide that you do not want to complete it and will just leave - but are threatened with legal action that could cost you $11,000 gives me concern. The fact that TSA bureaucrats have enacted these penalties void of any Congressional input gives me concern.

Travelers that have implants such as pace makers, knee or hip replacement have no choice but to go through the enhanced pat downs. It is also a violation of human dignity IMO. An elderly man having to drop his trousers in a public location at the airport is not only wrong, but as I said, a violation of the 4th Amendment. As a father, I would not stand by as my young teen son or daughter were treated like that. I would not let my four year old child be subjected to that. Think about all that we teach young children - parents, schools, etc. - about not letting strangers touch them....

I realize it is a small percentage of people being subjected to this. The odds of randomly being selected (random selection being a huge problem) are relatively low. But......not having the choice once you are selected is a problem.

SARKY

11-25-2010, 02:54 PM

I dont think anyones constitutional "Rights" are being violated, and I don't think anyone is being "raped"...

Flying is a choice! You decide to "fly the friendly skies"...no one is making you do it. If its required for your job- well, quit your job and get a job that doesnt require air travel-...its plain and simple- if you want to fly- you have to go through the checks...There are highways and interstate systems that you can travel on in the comfort of your own vehicle, or you can even fly your own plane without going through the security checks. But, if you want to fly "commercially" you gotta go through the security checks.

As far as the workers getting their jollies by patting YOU down....get over yourself. Go to the airport and look at the people....Most of us Americans are fat and ugly....nobody is going to enjoy patting me, Rick, Crash, Ken or Sourdough down...very few of the people traveling commercially are Victoria's Secret models....most are middle aged slightly overweight wonks that nobody (including their spouses) wants to see nude- much less touch!

It is truly a shame that some people don't understand the Constitution! Do you or do you not have the freedom movement (ie traveling from where you are to else where including across state lines)? The Constitution doesn't say that you have the right to transport yourself via horse or buggy but not cars, trains or planes. FLYING is simply another MODE of transport. Not to mention those lying sacks of dog turds are bragging about how much contraband they have intercepted. Yeah well the next person who trys to hijack an airplane with nail clippers with me on the plane is going to be carpping nail clipper for a week!
So DM, got any kids? Do you want them groped by strangers?
I am having a hard time controlling my ire on this issue.
This system doesn't work. What is next? After a bomber put a pound of C-4 up his keester are you ready to line up for a body cavity search???? Well are you??? What these morons are doing is getting us used to being man handled, turning us into sheeple. So tell me, are you a government shill?
Yes I can get into my car and avoid the fondling, but for how long??
Get over yourself, the government is not mother, the government is not father. There are better ways to keep us safe but this balless administration refuses to address the problem and instead addresses the symptoms. Try PROFILING!!!!!!!!! It works!

Alaskan Survivalist

11-25-2010, 03:12 PM

I agree that rights are not violated since there is a choice not to fly. My thoughts that as individuals we have given up our duty to act responsibly with the rights we have. Why do so many willingly subject themselves to this? Safety? Convenience? The path of least resistence? I quit flying years ago. I don't feel my rights have been violated but I do feel the indoctrination and acceptence by so many will result in more of the same kind of control measures. I don't believe in helplessness and this is what they do in airport security, render you helpless, in total submission. Better you than me!

crashdive123

11-25-2010, 03:27 PM

Please - let's not let this discussion get personal.

Alaskan Survivalist

11-25-2010, 03:50 PM

How far have we come that even talking about personal responsibilty is offensive?

DOGMAN

11-25-2010, 04:25 PM

First, i do have a kid. And, yes I would let him be pat down. Kids are routinely checked out in doctors appointments from birth until getting the physical for football (turn your head and cough)....its no different with this- except the kids have clothes on.

Next, profiling...you really think that works? Tell that to all the people in OKC who lost loved ones in the biggest terrorist act in the USA prior to 9-11. Timothy McVeigh nor Ted Kacinsky fit into the "profile" for terrorist- but yet they wreaked alot of damage . If you look at the majority of terroristic acts that have happenend on US soil over the years- it was not Middle Easterners who did them. It was homegrown whiteboys.

Its simple- if you don't want to get pat down- don't fly. No rights are being violated....you can still fly- you just have to undergo a search first....

Rick

11-25-2010, 04:29 PM

Talking about personal responsibility is not offensive. Personalizing a post is. There is no reason for folks to lose the ability to reason when DISCUSSING current events. Because someone disagrees with me does not make them wrong and me right. They simply disagree and under the Constitution have that very right.

Alaskan Survivalist

11-25-2010, 04:35 PM

Kids are routinely checked out in doctors appointments from birth until getting the physical for football (turn your head and cough)....its no different with this- except the kids have clothes on.

Don't you see this is how indoctrination works? A little here and a little there. That is why they are called progressives. They don't just want more, they want it all, but they are patient about and it will come as fast as it will be accepted.

DOGMAN

11-25-2010, 04:48 PM

My generation was told to ‘Just Say NO!’ and taught to ‘never talk to strangers’. And now we are supposed to let our children get publicly molested by some pervert with a GED?!?

Your preconceived notion of what a TSA employee is seems wrong from what I've learned here....

From SARKY,

"Then when TSA was formed I went down and applied, passed all all their tests and even had a still valid TS clearance. I should have known it was a joke when they told me there would be no preferance to vets. I had applied for a supervisor position. I get a call 9 months later asking me if I want a part time baggage inspector job."

So, according to the one member here who has applied for a job doing this- it sounds like a hard job to get...even with his immense experience in the field he couldn't get hired easily....so, "profiling" them as all pervert high school drop outs seems unreasonable....

Alaskan Survivalist

11-25-2010, 04:55 PM

This may be homophobic but if it had to happen I would prefer to be groped by a woman.

DOGMAN

11-25-2010, 04:59 PM

Don't you see this is how indoctrination works? A little here and a little there. That is why they are called progressives. They don't just want more, they want it all, but they are patient about and it will come as fast as it will be accepted.

Yeah right...its a conspiracy...30 years ago during the Reagan administration, some bureacrat convinced all the doctors, health care professionals and football coaches to agree to get kids to submit to physicals, so 3 decades later they'd be submissive and allow for less intrusive "pat-downs" at the airport....now that is progressive thinking!!!

Justin Case

11-25-2010, 05:00 PM

Nobody has to be patted down,,, just go through the darn scanner,,,, No big deal. :)

But I agree AS,,, depending on the person doing the pat downs, i may choose to "Opt out" !

DOGMAN

11-25-2010, 05:03 PM

This may be homophobic but if it had to happen I would prefer to be groped by a woman.

Now, this is something I can agree with! I'd prefer to be pat down by a woman than a man as well!

Alaskan Survivalist

11-25-2010, 05:23 PM

Yeah right...its a conspiracy...30 years ago during the Reagan administration, some bureacrat convinced all the doctors, health care professionals and football coaches to agree to get kids to submit to physicals, so 3 decades later they'd be submissive and allow for less intrusive "pat-downs" at the airport....now that is progressive thinking!!!

The progresive method is to take full advantage of any trend that may already exist and need not necessarily be part of the the conspiracy. People complacient about this serves thier purpose. They need not be informed of the consequences or know who they serve, they just do.

Rick

11-25-2010, 10:06 PM

COWBOYSURVIVAL

11-25-2010, 10:23 PM

groped...I mean patted down by a woman. Hmmmm. My luck, it'd be a transvestite. (no offense to any survivalists that happen to be a transvestite.) Wait. What would a transvestite stock? Never mind. I don't want to know. Forget it. I'm usin' the scanner.

Forgive me Rick, I am just a dumb southerner, But I was wondering? Can a women be a transvestite?:innocent::huh:

BENESSE

11-25-2010, 10:31 PM

What's next...checking orifices manually? (the scanner can't show what could potentially be hidden there)
While all this is in reaction to the underwear pyro "they" are 5 steps ahead with god knows what.
We've always reacted never pro-acted which is exactly the wrong approach and people are just fed up.
I wouldn't mind putting up with hell if only I had the confidence we were doing our absolute best.
I don't.

BENESSE

11-25-2010, 10:34 PM

Forgive me Rick, I am just a dumb southerner, But I was wondering? Can a women be a transvestite?:innocent::huh:

No, because women dressing up in men's clothes is nothing new or a taboo. At least IMO.
Now if they wore fake mustache or beard...

SARKY

11-25-2010, 10:38 PM

You know DG, I am begining to believe you are a shill for the government! That or you have been so indoctrinated , that you can't tell right from wrong.
PROFILING does work if TRAINED people do it correctly just ask the Israelis. So are you ready for your body cavity search? Would that be going too far for you?
As to TSA being elitist, oh yeah..... that is why so many felons were hired when fully qualified and vetted people were not. Go and ask a TSA person what there qualifications for the job were before they were hired. You won't be impressed.
As to JC..... well he is a produt of the CA school system.

COWBOYSURVIVAL

11-25-2010, 10:39 PM

No, because women dressing up in men's clothes is nothing new or a taboo. At least IMO.
Now if they wore fake mustache or beard...

Always knew I liked to see a women in a dress! Didn't really equate it with avoiding transvestite women though....Thats why I come here, it is the wealth of knowledge!

DOGMAN

11-25-2010, 11:06 PM

SARKY

11-25-2010, 11:19 PM

Have you ever heard of the 4th amendment to the Constitution??? Are you telling me that people don't have the right to travel if the refuse an illeagal search???? Remember before you respond the courts have already said you CAN'T use a broad brush criteria to implement a search.
DUI check points are not the same. They don't just drag you out and feel you up! They talk to you (part of profiling) to determine if you have or haven't been drinking.
GET REAL! So we don't have the man power at all these airports to profile???? Are you even familiar with the Isreali system and the process ???

BENESSE

11-25-2010, 11:23 PM

Comparing the USA to Israel makes no sense...they are a nation of 7.5 million people....The USA has approx 310 million people...its alot simpler to manage a nation that tiny. To put into perspective- New York City has a larger population than Israel...

It is not a violation of our rights to have to undergo a pat down or screening- if you pass the security checkpoint- you can still travel freely by airplane...you can travel by car, bike, foot, etc...freely all around the country without being patted down...

So, are drivers licenses, license plates, and DUI checkpoints unconstituational?

Well, the Israeli experts are quite confident that their system can be implemented here and they are willing to assist us in every way. I'm no expert but I've read about it extensively and feel that it's doable and we have the resources to pull it off.
I can't think of anything more important than doing this right, can you? We are fighting a new kind of war and this is part of it.
btw, I am not looking for less security, just smarter security.

Justin Case

11-26-2010, 08:36 AM

Justin Case

11-26-2010, 08:37 AM

Justin Case

11-26-2010, 08:40 AM

Rick

11-26-2010, 10:20 AM

Making posts personal will stop. Period. I'll close this thread if one more person makes a personal attack. It's not necessary, certainly doesn't aid your position, and demonstrates you're inability to deal with issues rationally. I hope that gets my point across.

Alaskan Survivalist

11-26-2010, 10:29 AM

Sarky may be right about Constitution violation. My fiirst reaction was that you had a choice not to fly, but this is being instituded by the federal government not a private company. It is certainly an expansion of authority in a grey area at best. I will have to wait to hear what Mark Levin has to say when back. He is the best authority on the Constitution I am aware of.

Rick

11-26-2010, 10:35 AM

Amendment 4: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'm not a Constitutional scholar but I think the key adjective is "reasonable". As long as the courts deem pat downs as reasonable then there is no violation. No more so than a police officer patting you down after a traffic stop.

Justin Case

11-26-2010, 10:45 AM

I agree Rick,,,,

Times have changed since the Constitution was drafted,, Nobody was blowing up airplanes back then ,, lol,,

LowKey

11-26-2010, 10:46 AM

You've already broken a law if patted down during a traffic stop. That's different.

I'm still going to ask. Why are the airports not closed if they feel random pat-downs and scanning is necessary? Not all airports have them and not all flights use them. Most still have just the luggage xray, the sniffers, and the metal detector. If it's not safe to fly without a random selection of the public being pulled aside for scanning and pat down, then it's not safe to fly. Period. No double standard.

If given the option over the scan or the pat down, I'd take the pat down. The only real outcry here is that the pat down has gotten more aggressive and that the TSA authorities in some reported (but unconfirmable) instances have gotten loud and abusive about those asking for the option. If they step it back a notch, simply point the person to the proper line and continue on, I think you'd find there would have been far less uproar at the outset.

I don't have to like it. I don't agree with it. I do feel it is an erosion in American values, but I see that everywhere now, not just in the act of getting on an airplane. You can't argue with those who see it one way or the other on this. You cannot change either's mind. It falls into a gray area that people find difficult as laymen to rationalize in legal terms what their stance is and they depend on simple gut feeling. The simple truth of the matter, beyond all this airport crap, is there is a lot of 'norming' going on all around you these days. You need to be aware of it.

Alaskan Survivalist

11-26-2010, 10:55 AM

I agree Rick,,,,

Times have changed since the Constitution was drafted,, Nobody was blowing up airplanes back then ,, lol,,

The Constitution has the ability to be changed if they have the votes. It is those that don't have the votes that try to subvert it. They blew up a plane, not the Constitution.

Justin Case

11-26-2010, 11:03 AM

The Constitution has the ability to be changed if they have the votes. It is those that don't have the votes that try to subvert it. They blew up a plane, not the Constitution.

Yes, i agree,, and refer back to Ricks post,, :)

DOGMAN

11-26-2010, 12:18 PM

I just dont see any constitution violation here. I dont think its unreasonable to be pat down, and we are not being kept from traveling, as there are other ways to get from point a to point b....

and as far as profiling- I say do that as well as screening and patting down. THe problem with just profiling is there are people that dont fit the profiles who wish to cause harm...terrorist will learn what they're looking for and make sure to not fit the profile. Drug runners have mastered that in the USA as to not get caught, there are ways around profiling. But, a screening and pat down make it hard to sneak anything onboard

Alaskan Survivalist

11-26-2010, 12:51 PM

Batch

11-26-2010, 01:07 PM

Terrorism isn't about killing people. It is about scaring the rest of the people into modifying there behavior.

Instead of 289 lives being lost or modified. The terrorist achieved a much bigger goal and modified the lives of hundreds of millions.

DOGMAN

11-26-2010, 01:45 PM

Reasonal seems to be the the question. That question does not stand alone. How could it be reasonable to do such thorough pat downs and not take other drastic measures on a par with it like profiling? Like barring the front door and leaving the back door wide open. Our basic premise is wrong dealing with Moslums. It should be if you aren't with me you're against me. Moderate Moslums my ***!

The only problem with that type of profiling or mind-set is- what about Timothy McVeigh?, what about Ted Kacinsky?....what about all the terrorist who have reaked havoc in the name of ELF and ALF? School shooters, etc...there are alot of home grown terrorist in this country that don't fit profiles and look and act just like "regular Americans" just because those types of folks haven't brought down an airliner yet doesnt mean they arent thinking about it....trying to prevent just "Muslim extremist" from taking over an airliner is missing the majority of domestic terrorist we've been attacked by!

Timothy McVeigh was a freedom loving, gun-toting veteran...and look at what he did! This problem we are dealing with isnt just a war against middle-easterners...we are breaking apart at the seems here....

Justin Case

11-26-2010, 01:55 PM

The only problem with that type of profiling or mind-set is- what about Timothy McVeigh?, what about Ted Kacinsky?....what about all the terrorist who have reaked havoc in the name of ELF and ALF? School shooters, etc...there are alot of home grown terrorist in this country that don't fit profiles and look and act just like "regular Americans" just because those types of folks haven't brought down an airliner yet doesnt mean they arent thinking about it....trying to prevent just "Muslim extremist" from taking over an airliner is missing the majority of domestic terrorist we've been attacked by!

Timothy McVeigh was a freedom loving, gun-toting veteran...and look at what he did! This problem we are dealing with isnt just a war against middle-easterners...we are breaking apart at the seems here....

Again, i totally agree ! The situation is what it is,,, These types of screening is necessary,,,,,, and warranted, Like DOGMAN says,,, Terrorists come in all colors ,, also, Remember the guy that flew his plane into the IRS building ? In Fact,, I am pretty sure there have been a lot more incidents committed on our soil by our own people than have been from "terrorists",,,, It is what it Is,, If people are such babies they cant handle a pat down,,, stay home !

Alaskan Survivalist

11-26-2010, 02:19 PM

There are few all inclusive answers to most problems. It does not mean you don't do something, it means you have to do it all. My point was that do do only one thing is pointless since the attack will come in an area where nothing is done to prevent it. Do it all if you are going to take that route. I prefer to go after them.

Rick

11-26-2010, 02:31 PM

You've already broken a law if patted down during a traffic stop. That's different.

Not necessarily. LOE only needs probable cause to stop you not an actual violation although it could be one and the same.

The only thing I disagree with in this whole effort is whether or not the new methods are producing finds that otherwise would not have been discovered. I've seen no evidence that it has. If there is no additional benefit to either the pat down or the scanners then I fail to see why we are doing it. If, on the other hand, TSA can clearly show that objects/substances have been found that could not have been detected in any other way then that presents another case all together. I do not see this as a Constitutional issue. That's just my opinion but any LEO can request to pat you down whether we agree or not. I see little difference between that and TSA.

I do think Crash has listed a couple of grievances that I would tend to agree with as well.

LowKey

11-26-2010, 02:45 PM

You all define Profiling as if it only looks at the color of your skin or the type of clothes you wear. True professional profiling goes far beyond that. When they ask you seemingly innocuous questions they are looking at your eyes. Those of you who have traveled abroad and come back through US Customs, do you remember any of the questions you've been asked after the usual plant-or-animal-products. US Customs is not the TSA and those questions are not just questions. They watch you while you answer. The TSA has tried profiling but admittedly has not had much success. This isn't something you learn in a one day seminar. It's a serious study in psychology.

People have traveled with medical devices before. I have. It required a note from the doctor and an actual visual. I know a lot of people with 'hardware' too that have been required to show the scar or have a note from the doctor. When a visual by TSA is needed, there are privacy areas and you can request it to be done there. That's been in place forever. No need to drop trou in the public area.

Alaskan Survivalist

11-26-2010, 04:00 PM

There must be little resistence to accepting this because Janet Napoliano has just said it should be expanded to buses and trains. Why don't I feel safer?

crashdive123

11-26-2010, 08:00 PM

I'm not an attorney (I'll bet y'all knew that already), but I do believe that in addition to not being the most effective method of screening, these new pat down procedures do violate the Fourth Amendment (as I previously stated). Apparently a former TSA official agrees with me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78OvO4iDI6g

DOGMAN

11-26-2010, 08:06 PM

One thing I'd like to add....Crash, Rick, AS, Sarky, etc...I do like all you guys and your posts and contributions to this community. Although I didnt see any of the insults in this thread if any where directed to me- i dont care....i want us still to get along and not let beliefs associated with this topic bias us or make us combatitive towards one another in other threads....all and all, I think all of us here are more alike than different....

crashdive123

11-26-2010, 08:10 PM

Discussion and disagreement is healthy. Rick and I were just trying to head off what appeared to be taking a personal slant to it. Regardless of your opinion on the topic, I plan on Mrs. Crash and I taking one of your dog sled tours some day.........we'll be driving out.:innocent:

Rick

11-26-2010, 09:06 PM

I agree, DG. I take no offense to anything whether someone agrees with me or disagrees. That discourse, if done objectively and supported with facts when possible, makes learning possible for all of us. I value the other person's opinion as highly as I value my own.

LowKey

11-26-2010, 09:29 PM

A brief discussion of Norming. It's a United Nations agenda. You might want to read up on it...

http://www.nelsonprice.com/index.php/?p=260

Rick

11-27-2010, 12:23 AM

Sorry, I don't buy his precept. He should purchase a dictionary.

nell67

11-27-2010, 09:30 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KucnZVKZfKQ

crashdive123

11-27-2010, 09:34 PM

Hehehehehe.

LowKey

11-28-2010, 12:12 PM

How bout a bombproof box that you step into and it just sets off any explosives you might be carrying? Solves several problems all at once.

<not my idea, new spam email circulating.>

Justin Case

11-28-2010, 12:25 PM

Batch

11-28-2010, 02:28 PM

How bout a bombproof box that you step into and it just sets off any explosives you might be carrying? Solves several problems all at once.

<not my idea, new spam email circulating.>

Problem is the type of bombs they are looking for don't seem to detonate too well. Other than I think the idea is the bomb!

Rick

11-28-2010, 04:36 PM

Well, let's do this. Strip everyone down. Insert helium line in ... well ... insert. Inflate and let go. Drift with the wind. Of course you can only "fly" on those days the wind is right but it should eliminate that awful security problem and hidden cavity searches. Viola! Problem solved.

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yellowcab

12-08-2025, 11:51 PM

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yellowcab

03-09-2026, 03:25 AM

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Will (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1370036)Ð¨Ð°Ð²Ñ€ (http://habituate.ru/t/1343125)ÑÐ·Ñ‹Ðº (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1242330)Ð‘Ñ€Ð°Ð³ (http://hackworker.ru/t/1480834)Ð*Ð¾ÐºÐ¾ (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1230721)Ð“Ð¾Ð»Ð¸ (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1254403)Ð›ÐµÐ½Ð¸ (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1250720)Ñ‡Ð¸Ñ‚Ð° (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1321200)Alex (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1348965)Ñ€Ð¾Ð´Ð¸ (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1378302)Ð’ÐŸÐµÑ€ (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/1250639)Ð“Ñ€Ð°Ðº (http://haltstate.ru/t/1256466)ÐŸÑ€ÐµÐ» (http://handcoding.ru/t/1346916)ÑÑ‡Ð¸Ñ‚ (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1695369)XVII (http://handradar.ru/t/1342524)
Alex (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1348891)Thom (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1244655)VIII (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/1240521)Ð*Ð¶ÐµÑˆ (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/851929)Ð¡Ð¾Ð´Ðµ (http://hardasiron.ru/t/948368)Ð”Ð¡Ð¡Ñƒ (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/1050700)Ð´Ð²Ð¸Ð¶ (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1255308)Ð¥ÑÐ¿Ð³ (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/1238845)ÐžÑÐ¸Ð¿ (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1352811)MODO (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1547901)Sela (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1547169)Circ (http://headregulator.ru/t/1547949)Ð±ÐµÐ·Ð¾ (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1644382)Leig (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1314543)thes (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1547312)
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yellowcab

03-09-2026, 03:26 AM

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yellowcab

05-19-2026, 12:11 PM

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yellowcab

05-19-2026, 12:12 PM

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