Cold....."Bitter COLD"........and long term survival???

[Sourdough]

I feel like there is some piece of information that I am NOT understanding about long term nomadic survival in the arctic. There is just so much about this subject area that I can't really grasp. Even with the best modern clothing and the best equipment it does not seem doable over a long period of time. And yet they did do it 125 years ago.

Maybe it was in the different diet. I have read extensively on the early explorers in Alaska from 1875 to 1940 and there is no deigning they did it, yes many died, frozen to death. Maybe it was the extensive use of fur clothing.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Seasonal preparation and routine maintenence of yourself and all you have. The first is what most won't accept and the second is why they go home after two weeks.

[Sourdough]

AS.......I was hoping you would join this conversation, as we both have extensive arctic experience. They used HUGE fur robes that were 8' by 8' and when ever they stopped for "Boil-up" they would wrap in that heavy blanket. To be clear I am referring to the musher who hauled freight over hundreds of miles of unbroken trail at -40* to -60* They never were indoors. In this thread I am referring to spending months at sub-zero with no break from the cold. They themselves say that the "Boil-up" was critical to survival.

[Sourdough]

You are correct about the fitness factor, especially the lungs.

[aflineman]

Surviving and being comfortable are two different things. I am sure that most of those folks had at least a case of frost nip and/or frost bite to show for their way of life. I am not sure I could do it over the long term. I would think that preparation (mind/body/gear) had much to do with it. That, and just sheer determination. I have read some accounts of Byrd at the South Pole that just amaze me.

[Trabitha]

Can't do it. Just can't do it. I hate being cold...just shoot me if we ever go back into an ice age. It will be far less cruel!! LOL!!

[Rick]

How did the dogs cope at those extreme temps?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

SD, I have read the Bible, The Book of Morman, The Richest Man in Babylon and How to Catch Trophy Halibut. That's it, period. "Boil up" is a term I am not familiar with. I make a point of not getting too comfortable just because most of the time I'm not and it only makes me notice it more when I am not. Some environments just suck and always will, get used to it and try not to notice it. I like my comforts as much as the next guy and have many ways to accomplish it, I just try not to over indulge. To FEEL warm at those temps needs a heat source and the colder it gets the more the heat neads to be contained. I heat up water in a canteen and use it as a hot water bottle in my bag or under my coat. It's kind of something I learned as a kid when my mother would hard boil eggs and put one in each pocket to keep my hands warm for the walk to school.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

How did the dogs cope at those extreme temps?

Most animals have the good sense to curl up in ball an hunker down in bad weather.

[Rick]

Well, I get that but these guys were transporting freight or mail or both or whatever by dog sled. I know the dogs were built for the work but -60F is cold by anyone's standard.

[Sam]

If you take a look at Ray Mears world of survival series on you-tube.com he spends time with folks in Siberia and in Finland and they are nomadic people that live out doors in tents year round.
-Sam

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Well, I get that but these guys were transporting freight or mail or both or whatever by dog sled. I know the dogs were built for the work but -60F is cold by anyone's standard.

The dogs of that day were not like the sled dogs of today. It's like comparing a race horse to a mule. They could take it and if you have dogs you always have a warm place to sleep.

[Rick]

Maybe that was part of their secret. A few warm dogs sure wouldn't hurt.

[randyt]

I don't know what boil up means to others but to me it means tea time.

[randyt]

I think it takes some getting used to. for example in the fall of the year you are cold with only a tee shirt on but in the spring your re comfortable in a tee shirt on a day that is colder than the fall day was. I don't know how this would apply to arctic conditions but the principles should be the same.

[Sourdough]

If you take a look at Ray Mears world of survival series on you-tube.com he spends time with folks in Siberia and in Finland and they are nomadic people that live out doors in tents year round.
-Sam

That is part of my point.......these guys did not use tents, they curled up in a fur robe.

[Sourdough]

I don't know what boil up means to others but to me it means tea time.


Yes, the rule was no matter what every two or three hours you stopped and made tea and had a bite of something to eat, not a lot, maybe one biscuit or one bite of meat.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Now that I know what you are talking about, yeah I do that. My favorite is hot buttered rum but most often just a shot of brandy or Crown Royal in my coffee. Thats why I like that Swiss Army stove so much.

[finallyME]

SD, I have read the Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Richest Man in Babylon and How to Catch Trophy Halibut. That's it, period.

What you haven't read "The Greatest Salesman in the World" by Og Mandino? Highly recommended and easy reading.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

My lack of education is my weak point. Having read so little I try to choose carefully what I do read. I found the complete works of Shakespear at a garage sale last summer I am trying to read when I find the time now. Spell check makes me look smarter than I am but don't be fooled, you are talking to a truck driver that never finished school. If I have any advantage at all is that I know I'm an idiot unlike some very educated people.

[Sourdough]

My lack of education is my weak point. Having read so little I try to choose carefully what I do read. I found the complete works of Shakespear at a garage sale last summer I am trying to read when I find the time now. Spell check makes me look smarter than I am but don't be fooled, you are talking to a truck driver that never finished school. If I have any advantage at all is that I know I'm an idiot unlike some very educated people.

Well your my kind of people.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Well your my kind of people.

Well there are lots of us up here. Part of why we stay. I'ts certainly not the weather.

[Rick]

Well your my kind of people.

We gotta find that boy a woman.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Maybe a thong would help?

[BENESSE]

OK Rick, it wasn't me that said it now, was it?

[Rick]

He was eyein' AS so I'm not even in this fracas.

[Batch]

My lack of education is my weak point. Having read so little I try to choose carefully what I do read. I found the complete works of Shakespear at a garage sale last summer I am trying to read when I find the time now. Spell check makes me look smarter than I am but don't be fooled, you are talking to a truck driver that never finished school. If I have any advantage at all is that I know I'm an idiot unlike some very educated people.

Are you saying that some very educated people don't know your an idiot? :innocent:

Up until last year I had me a ninth grade edjumication.

My boss had to go to court and the opposing lawyer was implying that the mechanic was an idiot because of his misspelling of several words in a report.

My boss said, "So, he can't spell very well. But, can you rebuild a diesel engine?"

How's that for a nice hot cup of shut the f@#K up!?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Are you saying that some very educated people don't know your an idiot? :innocent:

No they know it and feel the same about everybody else is too except themselves of coarse. They are almost right.

[crashdive123]

My lack of education is my weak point. Having read so little I try to choose carefully what I do read. I found the complete works of Shakespear at a garage sale last summer I am trying to read when I find the time now. Spell check makes me look smarter than I am but don't be fooled, you are talking to a truck driver that never finished school. If I have any advantage at all is that I know I'm an idiot unlike some very educated people.

Don't sell yourself short. The very educated people knew that about you too.:innocent:


I hope that humor came through:eek:

[Rick]

Er, um, Crash. Have you read about the poison cake yet? Or the rigged shotgun? Just remember that if you can see AS then he can see you, too. If you can't see him then you are seconds from death.

[Batch]

I hope that humor came through:eek:

I was hoping the same thing when I posted my comment above.

Your post made me feel better though. Cause he has to come through you first on his way down here. If he flies to Miami and asks for directions in English he'll be lost for years.

¿Qué? No hablamos ingles aqui gringo! :dodge:

[Rick]

AS can not only speak every language in the world, he invented them.

[BENESSE]

...and on the sixth day, he created all those who speak them.

[crashdive123]

You guys are giving him entirely too much credit. If he were standing in front of me right ...................Hey! Who's behind me?.........:shuriken:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I'm not like that. To prove it let me bake you a cake.

[Rick]

Oh, see??????? I think the lesson of how to give respect is going to be a hard one. I, for one, respect the man. (Besides, I don't have enough good bones left to break)

[Rick]

I had to resurrect this thread because I've been doing a lot of research on it since SD posted it. I thought it was an excellent question.

I've stated in past threads that I try to look at folks that have lived specific events to try and understand how they survived that event. What secrets did they have that enabled them to survive when others perished. In this case, I turned to the Battle of Moscow in late 1941 and early 1942. The temps were -20° to -40° F with significantly lower wind chills. While the Germans were ill prepared for such bitter cold the Russians were well prepared and wore Telogreika padded coats and pants with a full length wool overcoat. The term Telogreika is Russian for "body warmer". We would know them as quilted coats and pants with draw strings at the ankles. Everything buttoned closed, even the sleeves, to keep cold air out. Many of the jackets had high collars although that varied quite a bit it seems.

The wore velenkis or felt boots. In this case the boots were made of wool felt. Since felt is not waterproof they wore a cover boot of rubber. We refer to them as galoshes rather than a true rubber boot that we're so familiar with. They also had a foot wrap that was made of flannel. It mimics our socks but was simply a cloth that was wrapped around the foot. It's called a Portyanki.

The Ushanka is the head covering we equate with Russia and some other countries. It has the flat fur front and the ear flaps on the sides. The word comes from the Russian word Ushi, which means ears. They were mostly sheepskin during WWII but could be made out of any available fur such as rabbit or even muskrat.

Underwear, as unbelievable as it seems, was made of cotton. Both summer and winter were long underwear with winter being heavier than summer wear for obvious reasons. I just have to believe they had wool long johns but I can not find any reference to them at all. Only cotton.

The gloves were five finger wool gloves rather than mitts. However, they also had leather trigger finger mittens. I haven't been able to determine if the wool gloves served as liners for the mittens but I assume they did.

I've provided the actual names in case anyone wants to look the items up.

Winter survival in extreme temps is a pretty straight forward affair in terms of clothing. Basics such as wool and felt, things we know all too well, and layering all seem to be key to not freezing to death.

The long wool coats, which can still be purchased if you are interested, are simply a modernized version of your wool blanket, SD. It's exactly the same principle, I think. Both very warm and capable of retaining body heat should you get wet.

I hope that adds some insight into surviving in extreme cold. There's hardly anything we could encounter that someone, somewhere hasn't already successfully gone through. It's just a matter of understanding what their strategy was to be successful and then trying to mimick it or improve upon it should we find ourselves in the same situation.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Rick, Don't get hung up on the cotton thing. I've been 70 miles into the Arctic ocean wearing wearing 100 percent cotton duck (Carharts) and there is nothing better. The weave makes as big a difference as the material. I've said that a dozen times.

[Rick]

Well, the weave is everything in cotton isn't it? A loose weave allows the loss of heat when wet. Wool expands closing the weave when cotton doesn't.

Just a bit of additional info. Here's how a Portyanki is folded around the foot.

http://3vzvod.com/Portyanki_files/portyanki.png

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Weave is important to wool as well. There is much more to it. In serious cold matted wool sucks. Used properly for what it does best nothing is better than heavy knit virgin wool. This is a portion of something I posted on a friends forum that explains it.

Keeping the blood flow to extremities keeps them warm and overheating to the point of sweating presents the danger of loosing insulation effectiveness. Regulating that temperature is critical and physical activity needs to be factored in. You guys get all that but there is two pieces of clothing that accomplishs heat regulation better than any other. Removing hat or gloves to regulate temperature in extreme cold can be hazardess. Frostbite can happen in an instant and fingers and ears (and toes) are most vulnerable. Even if they just get cold they will be harder and take longer to warm up. That's what you don't do but what should you do? The answer is to regualate your core directly and if more cooling needed to do it through arms. A vest with a heavy knit wool sweater under it can be used like this. First a vest maintains your mobilty better than wearing another layer with sleeves that will bind you and secondly insulates core where most of your heat is. If wearing a parka unzipping it will release the air between vest and parka. If further cooling is needed then unzip vest exposing heavy knit wool. I say heavy knit wool because weave is important. Dead air space is what insulates and large heavy weave will hold more of it there as long as it is covered. Without being covered wind removes the dead air. So by controlling how much of it is exposed you can control temperature very effectively to match activity. If more cooling is needed remove parka and that is why I have a stuff sack and a way to strap it to my kit. With vest zipped up and arms coverd with wool you are still good for cold temperature and physical exertion because the wool will also bleed off moisture. By the time you are are unzipping vest or removing it temperatures should no longer be life threatening. I know this is old school but I continually try the new materials and new methods and nothing has come even close to being as effective yet.

Rick believe me, I have tried everthing over my life working in the cold. If there was a a btter way I would do it in a heart beat. I just found something new I have accepted. It's a gear bag that when unziped lays flat and can be used as a ground cloth or tarp, then to fill with gear you just throw all your stuff in it and zip it up. Some places I drive I am required to carry specific gear and this is the bag I will use and liked it so much I got another for personal use.

This is how I am using my bags. One has all my miltary arctic gear, rain gear, 2 pairs of chest waiders and 4 pairs of boots.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_1607.jpg

The it zips up into water resistent bag about 4 feet long. Cinch straps tighten it up and handles can be used to lash it down. I will be painting logo to camo it.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_1606.jpg

In the second bag I put my Carhart work gear and Lacrosse Boots. This is top of the line arctic work gear and will be still in use decades after my military gear is rags. Some of it has already been on the job 20 years!

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_1608.jpg

[Rick]

That is a pretty neat bag. They have lots of variations it looks like and several different sizes.

I like jackets that vent under the arms. I have a couple of North Face coats that allow me to reduce core temp without shedding clothes. It's pretty handy and an easy way to regulate temps very quickly.

[Sourdough]

I wonder too what degree the metabolism of the individual is a factor. I have warm gear, and have rode snow machine all day at -30* and only once we were out riding at -55* up at Lake Louise. What interests me is long term, like three months of 24/7 sub-zero, never getting out of it.

[BENESSE]

Anything about Shackleton is inspiring.
It's a great read in general, but helpful on this particular topic.
http://main.wgbh.org/imax/shackleton/sirernest-four.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/shackleton/

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Gear maintenence is the key. Having an extra pair of boot liners so one can be airing out. I change underwear a lot and clothing not so much. Under wear is easier to wash, lighter to carry and takes up less space. The only real diffierence for long term is you won't be coming home to clean cooking gear, air out sleeping bags, dry clothing, shave and shower. You just have to do the best you can with these tasks and get used to the results not being what you may be used to. For example I use stainless cook ware because creosote is hard to remove without steel wool and when I'm out for a long time I just burn off what I can and leave the rest. I have melted aluminum cook kits doing this. Often gear that would seem to need more maintenence is actually superior in the long term because it can be maintained wear other gear that needs less maintenence can't be. Knowing what nature provides helps to keep you supplies for when really needed. Using snow to wipe your but every chance you can saves toilet paper. You can wash any part of the body with snow just do one part at a time, dry off quick and do the rest later. Keeping a fire going saves lighter fluid to start another. It is the unglamorous, routine maintence that makes life easy. All the things you do when you return from a trip you have to get used to doing in the field. That's it, period. The only difference. For some reason people quit shaving or bathing when they go in the woods. Not me and the reason my handle was "Dandy" amoung the miners in your neck of the woods back in the 80's.

[ravenscar]

i do not know how true this is, but i read in "Horsemasters" that old "post caveman" gnawed frozen fish to keep warm. smells like a barrel full of em to me

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Amazing there is so much stock put in these people that just venture here. I am always amazed how people come here and become experts in thier short time here. Environmentalists are the worst. Maybe instead of studying visiting white men you should study the indigenous people that have lived it for thousands of years. That's what the explorers that lived did. Thanksgiving should be for thanking the Indians that saved thier ***.

[ravenscar]

ok, jeez i was just asking if it was true

[Alaskan Survivalist]

ok, jeez i was just asking if it was true

It wasn't just you but an overiding theme. There is just better ways than how many of the explorers did it. Columbus was famous for discovering America yet Indians were here long before he was. I havn't read any of those books but then again I've lived amoung the Natives. I have no concerns about cold weather yet people that have done all this reading continue in uncertainty.

[BENESSE]

Personally, I think it's useful to learn from both-- the natives and the explorers.

The natives, because their knowledge is generations old and part of who they are, their DNA. It's not unusual to see among tribes even physical changes in response to their environment. Thicker soles, resistance to insect bites and the ability to ingest stuff that would make the rest of us violently ill, for example.

The explorers, because they overcame unimaginable challenges in a relatively short time (historically speaking) and who can teach us what's possible if only there's ingenuity, will and perseverance.

When it comes to legitimate knowledge, I am not picky, just grateful to get it.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Personally, I think it's useful to learn from both-- the natives and the explorers.

The natives, because their knowledge is generations old and part of who they are, their DNA. It's not unusual to see among tribes even physical changes in response to their environment. Thicker soles, resistance to insect bites and the ability to ingest stuff that would make the rest of us violently ill, for example.

The explorers, because they overcame unimaginable challenges in a relatively short time (historically speaking) and who can teach us what's possible if only there's ingenuity, will and perseverance.

When it comes to legitimate knowledge, I am not picky, just grateful to get it.

Just don't let your knowledge get in the way of your common sense if you find yourself out in the cold. Honestly I'm more interested how the "Pie Poll" turns out.

[DOGMAN]

I think proper mindset is a key ingredient to long-term extreme winter living...My main mushing mentor grew up in the Bush in Alaska. His family lived in tarp houses year round, he mainly just had layers and layers of cheap, handme down cotton clothes and over sized bunny boots...but, he enjoyed his child hood.
He never had a "Man vs nature" mentality...he accepted nature on its terms, and did whatever it took to stay warm. You never admit defeat- if you don't feel your at war...thats a big factor. If you can keep your mind calm, and just deal with things objectively and not put yourself in self-imposed mental turmoil you can deal with alot....

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I have more of the "Man vs Nature" attitude, but I can kick its ***.

[DOGMAN]

a real tough guy...beating up on "Mother Nature"....

[Alaskan Survivalist]

That's what people do and always have. Homesteaders conquer the land and if your friend lived under a tarp most his life was not very good at it. I harvest the land and protect it for maximum harvest. Never bought into all the fairy tale garbage.

[ravenscar]

humans will always try to alter there surounding to better suit their needs.

[DOGMAN]

That's what people do and always have. Homesteaders conquer the land and if your friend lived under a tarp most his life was not very good at it. I harvest the land and protect it for maximum harvest. Never bought into all the fairy tale garbage.

Well he was just a kid- living with his parents...they were very nomadic...so, you can say they, were not very good at it...However, I believe thats just how they chose to live...because they dedicated all thier energy to their dogs.... for several decades now they have been considered one of the most respected familes in dog mushing...as Dad- has finished the Iditarod over 20 times (top 20 several times) and son, was rookie of the year his first Iditarod, most improved musher in his second Iditarod, and has finished in the top ten in the Iditarod twice. They are considered two of the most winningest mushers in Sled dog racing....so, say whatever you want about them. But they are tougher than nails....

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Well he was just a kid- living with his parents...they were very nomadic...so, you can say they, were not very good at it...However, I believe thats just how they chose to live...because they dedicated all thier energy to their dogs.... for several decades now they have been considered one of the most respected familes in dog mushing...as Dad- has finished the Iditarod over 20 times (top 20 several times) and son, was rookie of the year his first Iditarod, most improved musher in his second Iditarod, and has finished in the top ten in the Iditarod twice. They are considered two of the most winningest mushers in Sled dog racing....so, say whatever you want about them. But they are tougher than nails....

Are you talking about one of the Mackies?

[DOGMAN]

Are you talking about one of the Mackies?

No....I'll pm you

[Rick]

SD - One of the reasons I looked at the Battle of Moscow was because of the length of the Battle. It began in October 1941 and ended in January 1942. Four months in extremely cold conditions would be long term to me. It's not years but it would sure seem like it.

Another good example to look at are the Vikings for quite the opposite reason. Their journey into Greenland failed miserably because they did NOT learn from the indigenous folks, who they considered inferior.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

SD, It seems as if you are looking for particular answer you find suitable to yourself. As I have said before I am an all of the above kind of guy. I have several kits starting with basic web gear to packs and even the bivy bags we discussed.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_1612.jpg

But maybe you want the next level of survival. You need some method of transportation to pack it. I made this kit to be packed by either Zodiac, Coots or my chevy AVEO. I went through gear and had to do some down sizing and get a few things to to get mobile base camp to a size I can hual. For food I have 48 #10 cans of Mountain House freeze dried food. There are 10 servings per can. 8x10 frame tent with Sheepherders stove for warmth. 40 inch double wide cot with three inch foam pad and sleeping bag rated to -35 are all part of a matched sleep system. To simplify and reduce size I went with dual fuel Coleman lantern and stove. 2 folding chairs. 12x16 camo tarp to cover tent. 5 gallon collapsable water jug.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_1611.jpg

Some of the down sizing was in my camp kitchen. This is what I had to get down to.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_1597.jpg

I down sized my tools to a minimum for camp chores.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_1599.jpg

More will be coming with me but this is all the space I will dedicate to mobile base camp. This is just a miners basic grubstake.

[Rick]

Sir, there is something seriously wrong with you. You are way too neat.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Sir, there is something seriously wrong with you. You are way too neat.

Just one of my problems. I even have holes drilled in all my gear so it can be hung in orderly fashion around camp. Forgive me for saying so but I don't think a guy with 300 lanterns and a thong for every occasion has any room to talk.

[DOGMAN]

Nice looking set-up AS...I wish I was so organized...

[Rick]

Well, I...uh...I don't have holes drilled in anything.....yet.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Not everything is organized. I have yet to figure out how to maintain proper rotation with any semetry to my food buckets.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_1614.jpg

I try to stay busy so I don't have to think about.

[DOGMAN]

Not everything is organized. I have yet to figure out how to maintain proper rotation with any semetry to my food buckets.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_1614.jpg

I try to stay busy so I don't have to think about.

FIFO (first in, first out) date them with masking tape and a sharpy- then rotate them in a counter clockwise order

[hoosierarcher]

2 Wool Union suits, one worn over the other the first just barely snug to the skin the second one or two sizes larger, two pairs of wool socks they same way. Fur mukluks loosely fit over the socks, wool overalls under walrus skin overalls fur side in, wool shirt, wool sweater, fur parka, wool toque under the fur parkas hood, fur mittens the cuffs of which went up to the elbows and lastly a very high fat(whale and seal blubber) diet. Oh and they avoided getting wet either form the outside in or the inside out at all costs. As far as the native peoples, Inuit have a 33% higher metabolism that most of the rest of the world population. They burn through calories faster and have higher body temps. I went to college with a full blooded Inuit. He HAD to go home in the Summer time and in Winter he could walk around in Michigan's 10 below zero in a wool plaid shirt and wool pants, no hat no gloves or mittens with a smile on his face. Of and he wore tennis shoes when I took him ice fishing.

[Rick]

Dang it! WalMart was fresh out of Walrus skin overalls. On the plus side, I think, I've got the high fat diet down pat.

[Brazito]

How did the dogs cope at those extreme temps?

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g40/Pirate_jess/samoyed.jpg

Samoyed

Cold doesn't bother these dogs. If it snows on them all the better, it's like more insulation. Oh and they pull like a freight train.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g40/Pirate_jess/samoyed.jpg

Samoyed

Cold doesn't bother these dogs. If it snows on them all the better, it's like more insulation. Oh and they pull like a freight train.

In fact they where in the genetic mix of the wheel dogs I used to raise. They where too small but when mixed with other Alaskan breeds the build and the fur with a lion like main would remain in a much larger dog. Imagine a 150 pound Samoyed.

[DOGMAN]

maybe historically Samoyeds pulled like a freight train (as did Alaskan Malamutes)....but modern day versions of those "breeds" have lost their serious work drive...for the most part both of those dogs now are nothing more than furry companion animals that look like a northern dog. There are still a handful of kennels that breed these dogs for their work traits...but most people breeding them do it for their apperence.

If you want to seriously haul freight, and have an expediton tough dog a Greenland Dog, or Polar Husky are the way to go. Malamutes and Samoyeds are best left on the couch

[Rick]

Dogman, I thought you might enjoy these.

http://veryveryfun.com/pics/polar-bear-husky-dog-playing/polar-bear-husky-dog-playing-1.jpg

http://veryveryfun.com/pics/polar-bear-husky-dog-playing/polar-bear-husky-dog-playing-2.jpg

http://cdin.us/blogsites/polar-bear-loves-husky-dog/

[DOGMAN]

I love those pics....

[Rick]

Check out the video below them. The tan dog wasn't quite so happy.

[Brazito]

maybe historically Samoyeds pulled like a freight train (as did Alaskan Malamutes)....but modern day versions of those "breeds" have lost their serious work drive...for the most part both of those dogs now are nothing more than furry companion animals that look like a northern dog. There are still a handful of kennels that breed these dogs for their work traits...but most people breeding them do it for their apperence.

If you want to seriously haul freight, and have an expediton tough dog a Greenland Dog, or Polar Husky are the way to go. Malamutes and Samoyeds are best left on the couch

The one we had as a pet when I lived at home many years ago hated cats, don't know why but he did. He was chained to a large steel work bench inside his own fenced area. If he saw a cat in the yard he would lunge for it dragging the bench about a foot. It took three of us to replace the bench to it's original position (very heavy). Around people he was the most loving dog you could ask for, just don't bring a cat in to his domain. If it snowed you would see a mound in the yard but no dog. Call out his name (Sam) and the mound would come alive. He was an awesome dog.

[1stimestar]

Here's the real story of what happened to the dogs.
http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/polar-bear/22/200-polar-bears-and-dogs.html

[1stimestar]

I know one trick that the Alaska Natives used to stay warm was eating their dried meat with as little chewing as possible. The process of digesting the unchewed meat created heat in the form of expanded energy.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I know one trick that the Alaska Natives used to stay warm was eating their dried meat with as little chewing as possible. The process of digesting the unchewed meat created heat in the form of expanded energy.

I do the same with meat natives dry. I do it because they seldom trim fat enough and it tastes cold and greasy so it get it down fast. Native food has never settled on my stomach very good either and after a few weeks I can't take it and have to prep my own food. My wife is native and find myself argueing over what I call great fish bait and what she considers a delicasy. Particulary salmon bellies that hold a hook better than anything else.

[1stimestar]

The wore velenkis or felt boots. In this case the boots were made of wool felt. Since felt is not waterproof they wore a cover boot of rubber. We refer to them as galoshes rather than a true rubber boot that we're so familiar with. They also had a foot wrap that was made of flannel. It mimics our socks but was simply a cloth that was wrapped around the foot. It's called a Portyanki.



I have felted wool boots called Lobbens. They are really good for the dry snow we have here in the Interior. They are comfy and warm though I wish I had the knee high version.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/1stimestar/Lobbens003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/1stimestar/Lobbens006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/1stimestar/Lobbens002.jpg

[1stimestar]

I do the same with meat natives dry. I do it because they seldom trim fat enough and it tastes cold and greasy so it get it down fast. Native food has never settled on my stomach very good either and after a few weeks I can't take it and have to prep my own food. My wife is native and find myself argueing over what I call great fish bait and what she considers a delicasy. Particulary salmon bellies that hold a hook better than anything else.

Yea, not found of salmon belly, muk tuk, or seal oil.

[Batch]

Yea, not found of salmon belly, muk tuk, or seal oil.

The natives in North Miami in consume salmon belly quite often and really enjoy it on a bread they call bagel with cream cheese.

Down here they call it Lox. :whistling:

[1stimestar]

The natives in North Miami in consume salmon belly quite often and really enjoy it on a bread they call bagel with cream cheese.

Down here they call it Lox. :whistling:

My experience with lox.

(http://cloud9doula.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/4th-of-july-and-mile-101-fun/)

[randyt]

how about some fermented caribou stomach? I've been curious to know how that tastes.

[Batch]

Nice blog. I like the photo of the moon.

[1stimestar]

how about some fermented caribou stomach? I've been curious to know how that tastes.

Lol I've never even heard of that! I'm pretty open to what ever but I'd have to be pretty hungry to eat that. Mind over stomach can only go so far!

[randyt]

Mind over stomach lol. the montagais considered fermented caribou stomach a delicacy. I think it 's a acquired taste.

[Rick]

Sorry, 1stimestar, I had to remove the link to your blog. The link in your signature is fine but you can't put it in the body of a post. It's just a way to keep spammers from joining only to post their spam but it goes for all of us.

[1stimestar]

Sorry, 1stimestar, I had to remove the link to your blog. The link in your signature is fine but you can't put it in the body of a post. It's just a way to keep spammers from joining only to post their spam but it goes for all of us.

Oops sorry. No problem letting me know if I commit any other faux paus.

[Rick]

Yeah, we're easy. We're cheap, too but that's a whole other story.

[1stimestar]

Yeah, we're easy. We're cheap, too but that's a whole other story.

Hahha yea but I can't date a message board.

[crashdive123]

Hahha yea but I can't date a message board.

Well, there is this one refined gentleman in Alaska I know. Of course, we'd have to find out how you feel about doors on out houses first. :innocent:

[ClayPick]

maybe historically Samoyeds pulled like a freight train (as did Alaskan Malamutes)....but modern day versions of those "breeds" have lost their serious work drive...for the most part both of those dogs now are nothing more than furry companion animals that look like a northern dog. There are still a handful of kennels that breed these dogs for their work traits...but most people breeding them do it for their apperence.

If you want to seriously haul freight, and have an expediton tough dog a Greenland Dog, or Polar Husky are the way to go. Malamutes and Samoyeds are best left on the couch

It’s awfully nice to hear someone mention the Greenland Dog. I have a Labrador Husky. She is 13 and still very powerful! Chances are good that we’ll be up that way this summer and bringing home a couple of pups! No doubt I’d have a team if the wife would let me.

[Rick]

No doubt I’d have a team if the wife would let me.

Men would have so much "stuff" if their wives would just let them. :crying:

[BENESSE]

From the sounds of it, Mrs. Rick has been more than accommodating.

[DOGMAN]

Claypick...thats cool you have a Labrador Husky.....those true huskies are such awesome working animals! For those of you reading who arent familiar with the terms..."Labrador Husky, Greenland Dog, Canadian Inuit Dog, etc..." those are all basically the same lines of traditional working huskies that have been continually maintained by Natives that have kept sled dogs since sled dogs were invented!...these arent any sort of AKC registered dogs....these are doglines that have been maintained since before any registery started naming dogs.
In Greenland they are so protective of their lines of Huskies, that people aren't allowed to bring dogs there because they don't want to mix any other strains of genetics- those dogs are as pure working huskies as you can get...in Ladrador and around Hudson Bay the traditional people there have also maintained a really pure strain of huskies as well. These dogs are very tough- primitive dogs....and its nearly impossible to buy one from a person if your intention is to move it to non-Northern climates...there are very few of these dogs in the USA (lower 48 anyway).
It is definetly a dog breed that deserves respect and mention.

[crashdive123]

Cool. I learned another new thing today.

[1stimestar]

Well, there is this one refined gentleman in Alaska I know. Of course, we'd have to find out how you feel about doors on out houses first. :innocent:

Lol personally I like having a door on my outhouse!

http://cloud9doula.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/img_2446.jpg?w=420&h=315

[Rick]

I didn't imagine you'd have a line waiting to use it, though.

[1stimestar]

Lol he was licking the salt off the door knob. I have since put a whistle out there as my daughter spent the next few days asking me to go out with her. She's has a moose run in before and is still pretty scared of them.

[Rick]

Yeah, well, I probably would have too and I've never run into a moose or had the moose runs. Whichever.

[NCO]

Moose aside...

How people used to, and partly still do, it here. (long term survival, as in generations long)

First thing is stockpile: During summer people gather resources, food, furs, wool, firewood, etc. Meat and fish was preserved by salting, smoking and drying, root vegetables by digging cellars and rock lined holes and piling them there, berries(cowberry/lingonberry) mushed and preserved in it's own juices. Also a heard of living reindeer can be seen as a stockpile.

Shelter: During the summer you built one. Be that a reindeer skin tent of the Sami-people or sturdy log and/or peat cottage of the Finns. Generally you need a form of warm shelter where you rest. And a tent or a cottage has proven to be the best option for it, depending on if you are living on a stockpile or herding reindeer.

Transportation: Reindeer pulled sled and skis for the Sami. Skis and man pulled sled, a sturdy finnhorse and a horse pulled sled for the Finns. Btw, those horses are the kind that still survive and work with only dried grass and straw, if necessary. They can pull awfully lot for their size and withstand cold very well. They are calm, reliable, loyal and tough, just like the men that work with them.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_z3XxWflhvyQ/S0zdycqBUvI/AAAAAAAAEgc/fkW5PpDdEuk/s640/IMG_0635.jpg

Clothing: Wool, wool, wool and furs + furs. Do I need to say more.

[Rick]

That was a very good post, NCO. On the sled you have a felling ax, a two man cross cut saw and what appears to be a draw knife. A very large draw knife. I don't think I've ever seen what quite that large. I've seen many that were 53 cm long but that thing looks like it might be 91 cm or longer. Do you know anything about it?

[NCO]

I'm pretty sure it is for cutting branches from the logs. Pine and spruce branches on the top 3/4th of the tree aren't big enough to justify the use of an axe.

Actually you can see scrape marks on those logs left from the draw knife.

EDIT: Judging by the axe, which looks like almost regular size one, the draw knife isn't much longer than 50-60cm..

[Rick]

That's the problem then. A felling axe here is about 88 cm in length. That's pretty typical anyway. That's a smaller axe which gave the draw knife a larger appearance. Thanks!! Again, good post.

[NCO]

Thank you Rick.

Why that probably isn't a felling axe, but a general purpose axe, is that they have that saw... No point of felling a tree with an axe when you can saw it... The axe is there for larger branches and splitting firewood, and as a hammer...

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