Surviving immersion in cold water

[wildWoman]

RBB wrote some sage advice about travelling on frozen rivers and lakes, I think this merits a new thread:
"At about age 12, I stepped through such a hole with my snowshoes on. It took me a long time to get out. It was about 20 below and I was 10 miles from home. Fortunately, there was no wind. I went trough up to my chest, and I had a shotgun shell match holder in my breast pocket which stayed dry. I was able to get a fire going, on the bank, and got my clothing dry enough to make my way home. My feet were pretty well froze, though, and I had to watch for frostbite the rest of that year.

I'm sure you know about carrying ice picks - to help you get out of a hole in the ice. I won't set foot on a frozen lake without mine. I use two 6"X3/8" lag bolts, wrapped around the top with friction tape, for a handle, and attached to one another by a cord that runs through my parka sleeves.

Here is another way to make them:

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/ice/claws.html"

RBB, that experience sure will turn a person into a very well prepared traveller on ice! It's amazing how many people up in this area carry no tools to haul themselves out.

I would highly recommend to people travelling on ice or even on northern waterbodies in the summer to always carry a few handwarmers with them (those small chemical packages that release heat once you knead them). I had to go for a swim in cold water a couple of times and found my hands pretty much useless for quite a while after I got out again. Making a fire would have been very difficult to do. If you have handwarmers with you, it's an easy way to regain body heat and get control of your hands again.

We always, summer and winter, carry a complete set of warm clothing and extra boots in a drybag with us if we go on the lake. Plus the handwarmers, a metal mug for heating up water/food, one of these little one-time use emergency stoves, and a fair bit of food. In the winter also ice screws and an ice pick plus rope. It's a bit of a pain to carry so much gear but potentially lifesaving. :)

[Rick]

Similar deal, similar age. Not nearly so deep water. Clothes were frozen on me solid by the time I got home. Had to climb into the bath tub fully clothed so the ice would melt and I could get out of them.

On a similar note. I ran across something on the net that said if you were out in high winds and had no clothing to break the wind you could soak your wool outer pants in water, let them freeze and wear them as a wind break. After walking a short distance, the ice would crack around the joints (knees, hips) making walking very easy. Have you northern folks ever heard of that?

[Sourdough]

Nope, but I have some experience getting snowshoes off underwater. Often you are holding the edge, and your top half is up on the ice, but your legs won't come out till you get the shoes off. As long as you stay with your weight spread out the ice will hold, however when you roll over on your butt and sit up (if the tangle of ice and shoes even allows this) now all your weight is concentrated, the ice breaks and down you go.

TIP: buy the right bindings..........or die.

[Rick]

Hey, I found the article. Here is it:

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/eskimo-windproof-clothing-trick/

[Sourdough]

I think "WILDWOMEN" ment Lag screw. As they come with sharp points. And Lag bolts are squared off (flat).

[MCBushbaby]

Remember that if you warm your extremities too quickly you could go into cardiac arrest when the cold blood hits your heart (when the HotHands pack expands your capillaries, allowing blood to flow freely again). So while the chemical pouches are a good idea, be sure not to do it immediately. Heat your core, then your limbs.

[explodingearth]

number one tip. stay the hell away from cold water or be extremely careful near it if way out in the bush. 2 get out of the water asap and take off all your clothes and get a fire going asap. 3 if you cant make a fire take off all your clothes and burn energy to keep yourself warm. 3 may be incorrect but i wouldnt know what else to do. thats all i would think to do if ihad no means of lighting fire but then again i would never ever even find myself immersed in cold water with no firelighting materials

[Sarge47]

number one tip. stay the hell away from cold water or be extremely careful near it if way out in the bush. 2 get out of the water asap and take off all your clothes and get a fire going asap. 3 if you cant make a fire take off all your clothes and burn energy to keep yourself warm. 3 may be incorrect but i wouldnt know what else to do. thats all i would think to do if ihad no means of lighting fire but then again i would never ever even find myself immersed in cold water with no firelighting materials

You left off doing the push-ups in the snow while nude!:rolleyes::D;)

[MCBushbaby]

You left off doing the push-ups in the snow while nude!:rolleyes::D;)

Oh, and according to bear grylls you should rub snow on your body to absorb residual water. I can't lol loud enough.

[RBB]

Similar deal, similar age. Not nearly so deep water. Clothes were frozen on me solid by the time I got home. Had to climb into the bath tub fully clothed so the ice would melt and I could get out of them.

On a similar note. I ran across something on the net that said if you were out in high winds and had no clothing to break the wind you could soak your wool outer pants in water, let them freeze and wear them as a wind break. After walking a short distance, the ice would crack around the joints (knees, hips) making walking very easy. Have you northern folks ever heard of that?

Sounds cold! Don't think I'd care to try it.

RE: Lag bolts. Wildwoman was quoting me. Up here, we call them lag bolts, and the ends are sharp. I'd rather use lag bolts than nails (as mentioned in the DNR report) as the steel is harder.

[RBB]

number one tip. stay the hell away from cold water or be extremely careful near it if way out in the bush. 2 get out of the water asap and take off all your clothes and get a fire going asap. 3 if you cant make a fire take off all your clothes and burn energy to keep yourself warm. 3 may be incorrect but i wouldnt know what else to do. thats all i would think to do if ihad no means of lighting fire but then again i would never ever even find myself immersed in cold water with no firelighting materials

If you can't light a fire, you better be wearing wool. It will do you better than synthetics, though it is a bad situation. Hopefully you won't be too far from some place warm. I'd get moving, though you are now in a dire situation. Hypothermia sets in quick.

I've gone through the ice two times, and several more times when the water (and air) was very cold. It immediately saps your strength. Wildwomen's handwarmer idea sounds like a very good one. Things you'd think you could do - you just can't. If at all possible, don't let your head go under - that will really throw you.

If at all possible, get a fire going right away. It will have to be a big fire. A wimpy little fire won't do anything for you. Get your clothes off, ring them out, and hang them to dry. While you are roasting one side of your body, the other is freezing. Sit down (even in the snow) and roast your feet until you can feel them again. It will hurt like hell. If you have a kettle, put it on to boil. Hot drinks will help a lot.

If you are with someone that goes through, and you have camping gear, get all their clothes off and get them into a sleeping bag and force hot drinks. If all else fails, skin to skin is best to transfer heat. It can be a matter of life and death - no time to be bashful.

[Rick]

I have followed this guy's work for some time. He's a hypothermia expert from the University of Manitoba and does a lot of work for the Discovery Channel. Here is a link to his site that offers three videos on what to do in a cold water immersion scenario. The fist video shows you how to escape, the second how to survive the night and the third is about how important your clothing is. The videos are about half way down the page. If the video does not load or is taking some time to load, refresh your page. In my book, these are excellent and will change some of the ideas you have about cold water immersion. Enjoy!

http://www.yukonman.com/cold_water.asp

[Sourdough]

So what is the safest type binding. Must work for primary objective, (snowshoeing) and be removeable quickly.....

[Sourdough]

So what is the safest type binding. Must work for primary objective, (snowshoeing) and be removeable quickly.....

[Rick]

Hopeak, just trying to think through this. No practical experience here, whatsoever. If you are dressed appropriately, then you have a few minutes to extricate yourself. As the doc said, you spend the first minute just trying to get hold of yourself and your breathing then remove whatever device you have on your foot (ski, snowshoe, etc). If I had skis on, then I'd probably try to get them off but I don't think I'd be all that concerned about snowshoes. If you kick the way he describes then they shouldn't be a hindrance and might serve a purpose of distributing your weight once you got out and provide another tool (digging, scraping) to build a shelter, etc. He had skis on for the demo and I wonder what he would have said if he had snowshoes on.

Am I totally off base here? By the way, I have no intention of testing this out....:rolleyes:

[Sourdough]

Hopeak, just trying to think through this. No practical experience here, whatsoever. If you are dressed appropriately, then you have a few minutes to extricate yourself. As the doc said, you spend the first minute just trying to get hold of yourself and your breathing then remove whatever device you have on your foot (ski, snowshoe, etc). If I had skis on, then I'd probably try to get them off but I don't think I'd be all that concerned about snowshoes. If you kick the way he describes then they shouldn't be a hindrance and might serve a purpose of distributing your weight once you got out and provide another tool (digging, scraping) to build a shelter, etc. He had skis on for the demo and I wonder what he would have said if he had snowshoes on.

Am I totally off base here? By the way, I have no intention of testing this out....:rolleyes:

Sherpas and other alum. tube shoes will float, as will wood shoes like Iverson snowshoes. And yes, "IF" you needed them in the first place to even travel, Then you are d*mn sure going to need them "IF" you get out of the water, to move in any direction.

As to getting out with shoes on. Depends on the weight of the ice you have to lift, how long the shoes are (some are 60" long). And how big of a hole you made when you went in. You are going to climb out face down, now your shoes have flipped down because of the pivot of the binding, Your knees won't bend both ways; So there you are upper body out. lower body trapped. "IF" and this is a big if you can roll over and sit up, and the ice will support you, well O.K. now you can remove the shoes. If the ice will not support you sitting, you can make the hole large enough that you can keep flopping and clawing with your spikes.

I should point out that generally you find yourself standing on the bottom, and your arms are on the top of the ice. So this is where you wish you could push a button to extract your boot from the snowshoe.

If you go into fast moving water. Well the odds are not Good.

I have found two style bindings that kind'a work, not perfect but better than any lace or nylon lace hook-eye type bindings, which Sherpa makes. I like Sherpa Snowshoes O.K. but not Sherpa Bindings.

[Rick]

Do you think you could kick and "swim" out like the video shows? Here again, I guess it would depend on the size of the hole.

[Sourdough]

Do you think you could kick and "swim" out like the video shows? Here again, I guess it would depend on the size of the hole.

Rick, This is such a important subject relative to what I do for "KICKS N' GIGGLES", that I hope some one comes forward and say HEY, look at this manufactured binding or We make our own out of intertubes, (which does work, not great but O.K.).

Ps. I did "not" watch the video, but I get the concept, and without some sharp object, swimming and flopping are your choices.

Did the video go into how to rescue someone????

[Rick]

I actually sent the good Dr. an email with two questions. 1. What does he consider to be the safest bindings and 2. Would he be concerned with trying to remove his snowshoes. I think removing skies are a given.

You might take some time and look at the videos. He contends you can survive a good fifteen minutes in water without entering hypothermia. Several hours in the water is not an unreasonable survival time depending on the person.

[Sourdough]

I actually sent the good Dr. an email with two questions. 1. What does he consider to be the safest bindings and 2. Would he be concerned with trying to remove his snowshoes. I think removing skies are a given.

You might take some time and look at the videos. He contends you can survive a good fifteen minutes in water without entering hypothermia. Several hours in the water is not an unreasonable survival time depending on the person.

It was painful but I watched it.

[RBB]

So what is the safest type binding. Must work for primary objective, (snowshoeing) and be removeable quickly.....

Probably the gum rubber ones. We used to make them, years ago, out of the old yellow gum rubber truck inner tubes. I doubt as you could find something like that today. They do sell the gum rubber bindings commercially, or have in the past. You can also make them out of a black rubber truck inner tube, but they don't stretch as well.

Most often, I use lamp wick, tied in a trapper or squaw hitch. You need to get the wick out of Canada as they don't sell it in length in the US anymore (asbestos in the wick). These are tied with a bow in the front of the foot, and are pretty easy to get out of. The time I went through the ice with my snowshoes on, I was using a leather binding, and needed to cut the binding with my hunting knife (on one foot) to get the thing off.

[RBB]

He contends you can survive a good fifteen minutes in water without entering hypothermia. Several hours in the water is not an unreasonable survival time depending on the person.

Oh, I don't know about that. I live near Lake Superior, and work with the local rescue squad. Half an hour is what we figure...

...though there was this old commercial fisherman, Oliver Wright. Oliver had an old boat. One day, while he was out fishing, the transom fell off and the boat sank. Oliver's assistant, a man in his 30s (name escapes me) died after about an hour. Oliver was out in Lake Superior for three days before being picked up by a Laker. Oliver was about 70 years old at the time, but everyone put it to the fact that Oliver hadn't been sober for the last 40 years. Lot of anti-freeze on board.

Oliver died a few years ago, but it wasn't from hypothermia. He lived on the corner of 2nd Ave and Third St in Two Harbors, MN (not an uban legend).

[Rick]

If you watched the video, he was in the water for over 45 minutes and still conscious. He had to be helped out of the water at that point but he was still alive and his core temperature hadn't dropped very much. It's all about the type of clothing you have on. The last video showed how important the type of boots you wear can be. He had to be rescued in that one because his boots were pulling him lower and lower in the water.

[AdventureDoc]

Rick-thanks for the links to the videos. Great stuff! I have seen a few cases of hypothermia and there were a few points that were "hammered home" during those events. "People aren't dead until they are warm and dead". The mamalian diving reflex is a key component of people having surived prolonged underwater immersion, especially in cold water. For some reason, kids do better than adults, too. If a person is recovered from a cold water immersion and CPR is started, you should generally continue CPR and and efforts for at least 30 minutes. Or until the body physically warms up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammalian_diving_reflex

Second, don't move an unresponsive hypothermic patient, too much. A few studies have shown that jarring of these patients has resulted in life threatening cardiac arrythmias. They have to come out of the water, but just remember to be as gentle as possible, real gentle. In the ED, I have seen patients attented to without even taking them off the paramedic stretcher, for fear of movement.

Emergency Medicine Secrets quotes:
Pathology occurs when core body temp drops below 35 C

Mild hypothermia: 90-95 F
Moderate hypothermia: 80-90 F
Severe hypothermia: less than 80 F

Great thread! Thanks!

[Sourdough]

If you watched the video, he was in the water for over 45 minutes and still conscious. He had to be helped out of the water at that point but he was still alive and his core temperature hadn't dropped very much. It's all about the type of clothing you have on. The last video showed how important the type of boots you wear can be. He had to be rescued in that one because his boots were pulling him lower and lower in the water.

Rick, The sound is disabled on my computer, I watched the video, Did he have a wetsuit on under the ski cloths...??? The standard here is 15 min. to 30 min. with many variables like age, how fat you are, how much of your body is in the water.

[Rick]

AD, thanks. I appreciate the additional information. None of us know when something like this will happen be it in the bush, a lake, a farm pond or a retention pond in the middle of suburbia. If I have been a first responder to a child, I know the first thing I would have done was swoop them up and try to get them to some place warm. What a mistake that could have been.

No, hopeak. No wet suit. He did have flotation ski mobile clothing on. That was covered in the third video but much of that was audio. I also think that was key to his lasting as long as he did in the water. Some old fat dufus (checking mirror as I type) wearing cotton clothing would have made a nice ice cube.

[Sourdough]

Probably the gum rubber ones. We used to make them, years ago, out of the old yellow gum rubber truck inner tubes. I doubt as you could find something like that today. They do sell the gum rubber bindings commercially, or have in the past. You can also make them out of a black rubber truck inner tube, but they don't stretch as well.

Most often, I use lamp wick, tied in a trapper or squaw hitch. You need to get the wick out of Canada as they don't sell it in length in the US anymore (asbestos in the wick). These are tied with a bow in the front of the foot, and are pretty easy to get out of. The time I went through the ice with my snowshoes on, I was using a leather binding, and needed to cut the binding with my hunting knife (on one foot) to get the thing off.

RBB yes, I have used lots of the cross cut tube bindings, they don't last long as you know, however they are almost "FREE". You could put 6 pairs in one pocket, I have relagated these to energency bindings. And anyone doing long crosscountry snowshoeing will encounter broken bindings, and broken snowshoes.

My primary Binding is the "BOB MAKI" made by Northwoods Ind. Hancockm, MI. (Rick can import there Website) After 40 years of Snowshoeing I am still wanting a better binding. Stability, does the binding hold the shoe straight, and yet permit some flexability on uneven ground. Is it easy on, and easy off. Is it longlasting, quality, and field repairable. The "MAKI" is not perfect, just the best I have found.

[Rick]

Well, I didn't find a web site for Northwoods Ind. and Hancock, Mi. only turns up Northwoods Sporting Goods. But here's a link so folks can see what a Bob Maki binding looks like.

http://www.northwoodsoutfitters.com/Pages/AdvStore/Snowshoes.htm

[Beo]

Here are the things I got from the U.S. Coast Guard friend of mine on this subject. Take a look and agree or disagree as you see fit but I just posted it and hope it helps.

The primary pathophysiologic effects of hypothermia are a decrease in tissue metabolism and a gradual inhibition of neural transmission and control. However, in the initial stages of cooling of an intact, conscious victim, secondary responses to skin temperature cooling predominate. Sudden immersion in cold water results in an immediate decline in skin temperature which, in turn, initiates shivering thermogenesis with increases in metabolism (VO2), ventilation (VE), heart rate (HR), cardiac output (CO), and mean arterial pressure (MAP). As body temperature declines and shivering ceases, VO2, HR, MAP and CO decrease proportionally with the fall in core temperature, while hematocrit and total peripheral resistance increase. Renal diuresis and extravascular fluid shifts can lead to a considerable loss of intravascular volume, thus decreasing systemic perfusion. The body's responses to cold-water immersion can be divided into three phases: 1) initial immersion and the cold-shock response; 2) short-term immersion and loss of performance; and 3) long-term immersion and the onset of hypothermia. Each phase is accompanied by specific survival hazards for the immersion victim from a variety of pathophysiologic mechanisms. Deaths have occurred in all three phases of the immersion response.

Phase 1: Initial Immersion and the Cold Shock Response:

The cold shock response occurs within the first 1-4 minutes of cold water immersion and is dependent on the extent and rate of skin cooling. The responses are generally those affecting the respiratory system and those affecting the heart and the body's metabolism. Rapid skin cooling initiates an immediate gasp response, the inability to breath-hold, and hyperventilation. The gasp response may cause drowning if the head is submersed during the initial entry into cold water. Subsequent inability to breath-hold may further potentiate drowning in high seas. Finally, hyperventilation causes arterial hypocapnia, which leads to decreased brain blood flow and oxygen supply. This may lead to disorientation, loss of consciousness and drowning.
Skin cooling also initiates peripheral vasoconstriction as well as increased cardiac output, heart rate and arterial blood pressure. The increased workload on the heart may lead to myocardial ischemia and arrhythmias, including ventricular fibrillation. Thus, sudden death can occur either immediately or within a matter of minutes after immersion (i.e., due to syncope or convulsions leading to drowning, vagal arrest of the heart, and ventricular fibrillation) in susceptible individuals.

Phase 2: Short-Term Immersion and Loss of Performance:
For those surviving the cold shock response, significant cooling of peripheral tissues, especially in the extremities, continues with most of the effect occurring over the first 30 minutes of immersion. This cooling has a direct deleterious effect on neuromuscular activity. This effect is especially significant in the hands, where blood circulation is negligible, leading to finger stiffness, poor coordination of gross and fine motor activity, and loss of power. It has been shown that this effect is primarily due to peripheral and not central cooling. The loss of motor control makes it difficult, if not impossible, to execute survival procedures such as grasping a rescue line or hoist, etc. Thus the ultimate cause of death is drowning, either through a failure to initiate or maintain survival performance (i.e., keeping afloat, swimming, grasping onto a liferaft, etc.) or excessive inhalation of water under turbulent conditions. These phenomena have obvious survival implications. It is, of course, advisable to avoid cold water exposure completely. If cold-water immersion does occur however, it is best to quickly determine and execute a plan of action: 1) try to enter the water without submersing the head; 2) escape (i.e., pull oneself out of the water, inflate and board a liferaft); 3) minimize exposure (i.e., get as much of one's body as possible out of the water and onto a floating object); 4) ensure flotation if one must remain in the water (i.e., don or inflate a personal flotation device); and 5) call for assistance (i.e. activate signaling devices). It may be difficult to execute these actions while the cold shock responses predominate. However, once the respiratory effects are under control, immediate action should be taken. If self-rescue is not possible, actions to minimize heat loss should be initiated by remaining as still as possible in the Heat Escape Lessening Position (HELP), where arms are pressed against the chest and legs are pressed together, or huddling with other survivors. Drawstrings should be tightened in clothing to decrease the flow of cold water within clothing layers.

Phase 3: Long-term immersion and the onset of hypothermia:
Most cold-water deaths likely result from drowning during the first two phases of cold-water immersion, as discussed above. In general, true hypothermia usually only becomes a significant contributor to death if immersion lasts more than 30 minutes. The individual who survives the immediate and short-term phases of cold-water immersion faces the possible onset of hypothermia as continuous heat loss from the body eventually decreases core temperature (Tco). Many predictive models to determine the core temperature response to cooling are based on the relationships between body composition, thermoregulatory response (i.e., shivering thermogenesis), clothing/insulation, water temperature and sea conditions. These variables and their impact on survival time are discussed in more detail in the Cold Water Survival section of this chapter.
Normal body Tco fluctuates around 37° C. The clinical definition of hypothermia is a Tco of 35° C or lower; however, any exposure to cold that lowers the temperature below normal levels results in the body becoming hypothermic. Although various temperatures and terms have been used to classify different levels of hypothermia, the following classifications will be used here. In mild hypothermia (Tco = 32-35° C) thermoregulatory mechanisms continue to operate fully, but ataxia, dysarthria, apathy and even amnesia are likely. In moderate hypothermia (Tco = 28-32° C) the effectiveness of the thermoregulatory system (i.e., shivering thermogenesis) diminishes until it fails; there is a continued decrease in level of consciousness; and cardiac dysrhythmias may also occur. In severe hypothermia (Tco ‹ 28° C) consciousness is lost, shivering is absent, acid-base disturbances develop, and the heart is susceptible to ventricular fibrillation or asystole. Death from hypothermia is generally from cardiorespiratory failure.

The rate of body core cooling during cold-water immersion depends on the following variables:
Water temperature and sea state
Clothing
Body morphology
Amount of the body immersed in water
Behavior (e.g. excessive movement) and posture (e.g. HELP, Huddle, etc.) of the body in the water
Shivering thermogenesis
Other non-thermal factors

Cold water survival depends on avoidance of drowning and hypothermia and on the many factors related to these risks.

Ability to swim
Ability to keep the head out of water (even without flotation aids)
Ability to avoid panic
Sea state
Availability and type of personal flotation device (PFD)
Availability of a life raft
Availability of other floating objects to increase buoyancy (such as a capsized boat)
Water temperature
Physical characteristics of the survivor
Type of protective clothing worn against immersion hypothermia and initial immersion cold shock
Behavior of the survivor in the water
Availability of signaling devices (whistles, flares, strobe lights, radios, and mirrors) and the ability to use these devices
Proximity of rescue personnel

Drowning is the most immediate survival problem following water entry. To maintain airway freeboard and to avoid drowning, a survivor must possess the physical skills and psychological aptitude to combat the effects of wave action. Although a PFD assists in maintenance of airway freeboard, waves can still submerge a survivor's head, even in moderately calm seas. To reduce the risk of drowning in rough seas, a survivor can increase effective airway freeboard by partially exiting the water (for example, clinging to an overturned vessel or other debris floating in the water) or by climbing totally out of the water into a life raft or onto a capsized vessel. In both these environments the survivor may still have to cope with the effects of cold wind, spray, and waves. Prehospital management of hypothermia patients, both in the field and during transportation to a site of definitive medical care, varies with the patient's level of hypothermia, with the rescuer's level of training, with the resuscitative equipment available, with the type of transportation, and with the time required for delivery to definitive care. Medical personnel must exercise good clinical judgment in balancing all these factors to select appropriate therapeutic modalities.

[Beo]

Rescue and Management
The primary goals in prehospital management of victims of accidental immersion hypothermia are prevention of cardiopulmonary arrest, prevention of continued core temperature decline, moderate core rewarming if practicable, and transportation to a site of definitive medical care. Aggressive rewarming in the field is usually contraindicated, since the means to either diagnose or manage the many potential complications of severe hypothermia are unavailable in this setting. In unusual circumstances, when transportation to a site of definitive care is impossible, definitive rewarming in the field, using the principles and techniques of management described in the following paragraphs, may be appropriate.
Retrieval of a victim from cold water immersion must be performed with caution. Sudden reduction of the "hydrostatic squeeze" applied to tissues below the water's surface may potentiate hypotension, especially orthostatic hypotension. Since a hypothermic patient's normal cardiovascular defenses are impaired, the cold myocardium may be incapable of increasing cardiac output in response to a hypotensive stimulus. A victim's vertical posture may also potentiate hypotension. Hypovolemia, secondary to combined cold- and immersion-induced diuresis, and increased blood viscosity potentiate these effects. Peripheral vascular resistance may also be incapable of increasing, since vasoconstriction is already maximal because of cold stress. The net result of sudden removal of a hypothermic patient from the water is similar to sudden deflation of antishock trousers on a patient in hypovolemic shock: abrupt hypotension. This has been demonstrated experimentally in mildly hypothermic human volunteers, and it has been suspected as a cause of post-rescue death in many immersion hypothermia victims. Accordingly, rescuers should attempt to maintain hypothermic patients in a horizontal position during retrieval from the water and aboard the rescue vehicle. If rescuers cannot recover the patient horizontally, they should place the victim in a supine posture as quickly as possible after removal from cold water. The patient's core temperature may continue to decline (depending on the quality of insulation provided, the patient's endogenous heat production, active or passive manipulation of extremities, and the site of core temperature measurement) even after he or she has been rescued, because of the physiologic processes described earlier for "afterdrop." To diminish this effect, the patient's physical activity must be minimized. Conscious patients should not be required to assist in their own rescue (for example, by climbing up a scramble net or ship's ladder) or to ambulate once out of the water (as by walking to a waiting ambulance or helicopter). Physical activity increases afterdrop, presumably by increasing perfusion of cold muscle tissue with relatively warm blood. As this blood is cooled, venous return (the circulatory component to afterdrop) contributes to a decline in myocardial temperature, increasing the risk of ventricular fibrillation. Experiments on moderately hypothermic volunteers (esophageal temperature 33° C) demonstrated a threefold greater afterdrop during treadmill walking than while lying still. Such an exercise-induced enhancement of afterdrop could precipitate post-rescue collapse. Throughout the rescue procedures and during subsequent management, hypothermic patients must be handled gently. Excessive mechanical stimulation of the cold myocardium is another suspected cause of deaths after rescue.

Scan'd this into my computer from his manual. Hope its good info for all.
Beo,

[Beo]

I left this page out in the begining, maybe Sarge can put it in order for me.
Gee thanks pa :D

Immersion in cold water is a hazard for anyone who participates in recreational, commercial or military activities in the oceans, lakes, and streams of all but the tropical regions of the world. Recreational aquatic activities include swimming, fishing, sailing, power-boating, ocean kayaking, white-water rafting, canoeing, ocean-surfing, wind-surfing, water-skiing, diving, hunting and the use of personal water craft. In addition, use of a snowmobile, although not technically a water sport can involve cold-water exposure due to accidental entry into lakes and streams. Commercial activities involving water include fishing, shipping, offshore oil drilling, and diving. Military operations over cold water include Coast Guard, Navy and Marine Corps missions; Army, Air Force and Marine Corps forces, as well, may encounter cold-water exposure during winter operations on land.

The definition of cold water is variable. The temperature of thermally neutral water, in which heat loss balances heat production for a nude subject at rest (i.e., not shivering), is approximately 33-35° C. Hypothermia eventually results from immersion in water below this temperature. For practical purposes, significant risk of immersion hypothermia usually begins in water colder than 25° C. Using 25° C as the definition of cold water, the risk of immersion hypothermia in North America is nearly universal during most of the year.

Cold water immersion is associated with two significant medical emergencies: near drowning and hypothermia.

[Rick]

Beo - I think that's what the good doctor demonstrated in the videos only he put it in English.:D

[Beo]

True I just like to give Remy a hard time although he has some great posts, they just get to looooong for me and too muh high-n-mighty talk, wonder where what site he gets his info from.

[RBB]

RBB yes, I have used lots of the cross cut tube bindings, they don't last long as you know, however they are almost "FREE". You could put 6 pairs in one pocket, I have relagated these to energency bindings. And anyone doing long crosscountry snowshoeing will encounter broken bindings, and broken snowshoes.

My primary Binding is the "BOB MAKI" made by Northwoods Ind. Hancockm, MI. (Rick can import there Website) After 40 years of Snowshoeing I am still wanting a better binding. Stability, does the binding hold the shoe straight, and yet permit some flexability on uneven ground. Is it easy on, and easy off. Is it longlasting, quality, and field repairable. The "MAKI" is not perfect, just the best I have found.

This Bob Maki binding looks similar to the gum rubber ones we would make - and to commercial gum rubber bindings I've bought, but the foot area on the ones I have is oval shaped - and the gum rubber is yellow.

My favorite, for stability and flexibility, is the trapper or squaw hitch. The Bob Maki style is easier to get in and out of.

[Sourdough]

This Bob Maki binding looks similar to the gum rubber ones we would make - and to commercial gum rubber bindings I've bought, but the foot area on the ones I have is oval shaped - and the gum rubber is yellow.

My favorite, for stability and flexibility, is the trapper or squaw hitch. The Bob Maki style is easier to get in and out of.

What we carry for back-up is, .375 H&H, no just kidding, well kind'a. For snowshoe binding back-up, (read blow-out, total failure of primary binding), We cut the inner-tube across so as to end up with a 1" to 1 1/2" wide rubberband. The rubberband goes over your boot toe, wrapped around the snowshoe and back up over the heel.

They are better than nothing in 12' of snow.

Come on Wolvies somebody must have a gooder idea, or we are doomed, Think 3-pin X-Cross-country, hinged plate, must work with multiple size boots,( bunnyboots, pack-boots, etc.).

[Sourdough]

Sticky thread bindings, well not great, but better than what the sticky thread is used for mostly.....

[Rick]

Can you post a picture of that bad boy? I can visualize over the boot toe and around the snowshoe but I'm having trouble seeing the back up over the heel.

[AdventureDoc]

Beo--thanks for the info...very clear and to the point. You mentioned this was from a Coastie book, right? What was the name of the book? Manual? I ask because I am interested in finding this and seeing what they say on other topics. Thanks!

[Sourdough]

Can you post a picture of that bad boy? I can visualize over the boot toe and around the snowshoe but I'm having trouble seeing the back up over the heel.

Sorry, I do not have a digital camera.....but try this, Lay a good size rubber band over your finger or a pen, or anything. Now loop it around and through once or twice (this is how you adjust how thight the binding is) Up one end up over your boot toe; and the other up over your heel.

[RBB]

Did some search on the web for a photo or drawing of a trappers hitch snowshoe binding (in case anyone is not familiar with it). Found very little. One site did mention that a trappers hitch is the one style of binding you can kick off if you go through the ice (in keeping with the initial point of the thread).

Besides being a good binding, the trappers hitch is good to know how to tie - as a back up - because anything narrow, and three feet long, will work as a binding. I've hobbled home using my shoe laces for a binding, and a friend once used a piece of wiigob (basswood bark).

I've had quite a bit of experience with snow shoes, as my grandfather made me my first pair of moggasin snowshoes in 1964. A year later, I took my trap line money and bought a good pair of Cree built boot snowshoes (which I still have). Been snowshoeing, and making snowshoes, ever since.

One of my ancestors, Grandma Artichone, who was Ojibwe, was a premier snowshoe maker in our area. The year she was 97, she built 47 pairs of snowshoes for the Us Forest Service. She lived to be 105, still living in the woods. I have a pair of her shoes, very tight weave. Can't get a pencil through it.

Here are some bindings that can be done with lamp wicking or rope - none of which is the Trappers Hitch I use (note, the taller moggasin is the type my family generally used in the winter):

http://www.inquiry.net/images/Copy_of_FFHB451.gif

More hitches:

http://www.inquiry.net/images/Copy_of_FFHB452.gif

Grandma Artichone generally used something like this, tyeing off the ankle with a couple of pieces of cord or raw hide.

Here is another style of inner tube binding:

http://www.inquiry.net/images/ich053c.gif

Some of my winter moggasins:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/pjjgirard/Tools%20and%20Camping%20Gear/DSC02543.jpg


A snowshoe style pack board:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/pjjgirard/Tools%20and%20Camping%20Gear/DSC01998.jpg

And Grandma Artichone's snowshoe (left) next to some of the snowshoes I've made:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/pjjgirard/Tools%20and%20Camping%20Gear/snowshoes002.jpg

[Sourdough]

RBB, That is not how we do the innertube binding. Hopefully Rick can figure it out and do a photo.

RBB, are those old snowshoes worth anything to people even to hang on the wall..???
They will bring $100.00 to $125.ish here. But I think they are real neat wall art.

[Rick]

Most helpful, RBB. I was trying to bring that binding up from underneath and "over the heel". Even though I know how the darn things work, the "over the heel" part had me messed up.

You have a ton of heritage there and something to be very proud of. Very nice post!

[Sourdough]

Rick take the illistration and from the heel run it under the pivot bar, or pivot web, loop it through it's self and up over the toe. This is the reverse of how one would do it in the field.

[Rick]

I'm finally with you. I'm slooowww but I gggeeeeettttt ttttthhhhheeerrrrreeeeee.

[Sourdough]

At some point we could talk the relative merrits of Pointed shoes, long tails, etc.

[Beo]

I have a pair of Faber Snowshoes I got for $165.00 and they're new (haven't got to use them yet cause my Canadian Trek got cancelled (totally pissed about that one) and we've had no real snow around here, here's a pic of my style snowshow and bindings note the back strap on mine is leather strap not nylon. And you are correct if I fell in a deep river or creek around here or anywhere else I'd be in a world of sheeeit partner, but that's a risk I take treking traditional. Doc I'll find the manual number and name for you no problem.
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2107/ojibwesnowshoeqb0.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ojibwesnowshoeqb0.jpg)http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/74/snowshoeharnessdb9.th.jpg (http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snowshoeharnessdb9.jpg)

[Beo]

1
LACING SNOWSHOES
Par
Louis Alarie
PURPOSE OF ARTICLE
In preparation for 18th century winter treks, I decided to replace the lacing on my snowshoes to be more appropriate for the period. I had already replaced the lacing on two pairs about a year ago, but they did not
come out as good as I’d hoped. The emphasis of this article is to document how I replaced the heavy cowhide lacing in my modern wood snowshoes with more period correct lacing. Mine all had the heavy, wide cowhide laces
typical of modern snowshoes, see photos 1, 2 & 3. This wouldn’t do for period treks in moccasins. I decided to replace the lacing with a more acceptable material and weave. Please note that this article does not get into the types of snowshoes used during the 18th century. I’ve left that for others. Fred Gowan has an excellent article (A Typical Day’s Journey in Winter) in Book of Buckskinning VII that should be a must for all period trekkers to read. Fred’s references included Camp and Trail Methods by E. Kreps. I purchased Kreps’ book and used it for the instructions on lacing my snowshoes. This book is worth purchasing. It has a lot of useful information.
Chapter 12 covers snowshoe making. The process is rather simple, gather materials, prepare frames and rawhide, lace the sections, and finally finish the shoes. Doing it is another matter.
Photo 1 Photo 2 Photo 3
2
GATHERING MATERIALS
Being an ebay user, I checked ebay regularly for snowshoes with damaged lacing. After all, who wants to pay top dollar for shoes with good lacing, only to tear them out and replace them? Once I had the snowshoes I wanted,
next was to get the rawhide. There are many types of hides that can be used for lacing. I had some moose and elk rawhide. Since I didn’t have enough of either, I used the moose for the center sections and elk for the toe
and heel portions. I like the moose because it dries a nice cream color. Elk dries a dark brown. If you are looking for rawhide, I usually get my hides from Moscow Hide & Fur in Idaho. They have a web site listing all their offerings, www.hideandfur.com. Their telephone number is 208-882-0601. I’m sure there are other sources.
PREPARING FRAMES
Once all the materials were ready, the next thing was to cut all the lacing from the old shoes. Tin snips with serrated cutting edges worked well for me, since heavily varnished lacing is a pain to cut out. Once the lacing is
removed (see photo 4), the varnish can leave behind sharp edges. You don’t want to leave anything to damage your new lacing. I used a sander to take off the bulk of the varnish and thin down the frames a little. I know it’s
not period, but time was short and I used what I had. Some spots, especially at the ends, have to be done by hand. You won’t be able to get the sander in there. Make sure that you ream out the lanyard holes. They may be
plugged with varnish. You should be able to remove the braces easily. You can then sand them separately. Modern wooden frames are thick and should be thinned down, if you have the time and patience. I did not, so removing the varnish was my main goal (see photo 5). Make sure to sand down the edges of the frame so you have no sharp edges to damage the new rawhide. I also had some shoes with lanyard holes that were not placed
symmetrically around the toe & heel. It makes for neater lacing if they are symmetrical. For those that were off by ½ inch or more, I drilled new holes and filled the old ones.
Photo 4 Photo 5
3
PREPARING RAWHIDE LACING
Next, I cut my hides into 6-inch diameter circles (see figure 1) and then carefully cut all around spiraling inward towards the center (see photo 6). I used the same tin snips to cut the new rawhide. How wide you cut your
lacing will depend upon the material that you are using. It will vary depending on the type of skin you have and also what part of the animal’s body you get your material from. It will also depend on how wide you want the final lacing to be after it dries. Remember, the rawhide gets narrower after stretching and will get even narrower still after drying in the frame. From the finished photos you can see how much they shrink. You may want to cut a few test pieces, stretch and dry them before you settle on the final width that you want to cut your material. My starting point was to cut ¼” wide laces. After cutting, soak rawhide in water. Once soft enough, I stretched as much as possible. If you have a weak spot, now is the time to find out. After stretching the first time, you’ll want to trim off any uneven areas to keep the lacing uniform in width. They will be easily identified, as they will not stretch with the rest of the lace, and will remain dark. I used a single edge razor
blade over a wood board to do my trimming. BE CAREFUL OF YOUR FINGERS. You want to end up with a consistently stretched width to the lace. If you take care cutting the original lace, trimming will be minimal. Before using, I dried the laces, soaked them again and stretched a second time. Long laces keep splices to a minimum, but they can tangle and knot easily as you weave. Make sure that the hide you use has been properly cleaned and watch for holes and knife cuts in the hide. My 6” moose circles stretched to approximately 13 feet. The elk stretched to approximately 15 feet. Your results will vary.
FIGURE 1 PHOTO 6

[Beo]

LACING
Make sure that you fully understand the lacing sequence prior to starting. Review the figures carefully. Check the diagrams and make sure that you understand the sequence from start to finish. Do not start until you are
sure of how to proceed. Even then, it is still easy to get lost as you lace. Make sure that you have cut and soaked enough laces to do a complete section. My heel sections took 1-2 of the 6” circles and the toe sections took 2-3. The center sections vary greatly with the different snowshoe types and can take from 7 to 10+ of the 6” circles. If you cut too many laces, you can always dry them and reuse at a later time. The lacing of a section of
the snowshoe must always be continued without stop until it is finished. During the process, the lacing will get drawn out of shape. You’ll need to straighten it up as you go. Don’t rush. Pay attention to details. I found in one
source that the heel and toe are usually cut very light and strung close, with the center usually laced with a heavier rawhide laced much coarser. I’m not sure if this is period correct and from what I found, this was not always the case. In some samples that I’ve seen on display, centers were laced the same as the ends. How you do it is up to you. My elk and moose seemed to dry to the same width. Kreps states that splices should never be made underfoot or on the frame. You need to be watchful of this while lacing. Make sure to keep all lacing wet until you are finished with that section. You can dampen laces as you go. Most of the figures used in this article came from Kreps.
Lanyard
Before you start the heel or toe, you need to string the lanyard in the frame (see figure 2). Stretch it very tight and allow it to dry before adding the lacing. Figure 2 also shows the lacing needle and splicing method. My
pattern was too narrow to use a needle, so I laced it in as best I could.
5
Heel Section
I prefer to do the heel first (see figure 3). It is the simplest section to do. Lacing the heel is relatively easy and is plainly shown on the sketch. Therefore, no description is provided. It is helpful to keep the sketch in view
while you are lacing any of the sections.
Figure 3
6
Toe Section
Lacing the toe section is shown in figure 4. Notice that every other pass loops back around the one preceding it. Once the process of lacing has reached the entire width of the end of the toe, the looping back is discontinued. The lacing is then strung the same as loop #3, until the toe is complete. As can be seen in the sketch, you’ll need to use string, or other non-stretching material to lash the lanyard against the crosspiece. This will hold it in place while it dries. The center section lacing will hold it down when it is installed later. Before lacing the toe, mark off the toe hole boundaries. Only support the lanyard outside this opening, leaving the center open. The center lacing won’t wrap around the crosspiece inside the toe hole area.
Figure 4
7
Center Section
Lacing the center is more complicated than the heel or toe. It is laced on the same idea as the toe, except instead of the lacing twisting around the lanyard, it loops around the frame. The toe cord is put in first, see
figure 5 for details.
8
The lacing goes on as shown in figures 6 and 7. Every other round loops back the same way as in lacing the toe. I made my toe hole 4 ¼” long x 4 ½” wide. When only that much of the opening remains, the lacing should
discontinue twisting around the forward cross bar and should only wrap around the toe cord. As you lace diagonally down, diagonally up and straight across you’ll notice that the lacing always leaves its anchor point (frame or rear brace) under the strands preceding it (see photo 7). You come in on top and go out on the bottom. There comes a point as you lace across, when you can no longer just go under the preceding strands and over the next. What you need to do is come up and over a diagonal strand. Then lace under the next diagonal strand, up and over to the frame (see photo 8). As you fill in more of this section, you do more of this interlock lacing. Eventually, the entire section will be filled and interlocked. This can get a little confusing if you don’t pay attention. Please review carefully the sketches/photos before starting. After the center is finished, a strand of rawhide should be looped around the cross bar at the side of the toe hole and it should be passed down along side of the toe cord support, around the toe cord, and around the cross bar(see figure 8). Then it should wind closely about the entire bunch, all the way down to the toe cord, in and out through the cord to the other toe cord support. It should be strengthened and wound with the same material, in the same way as the first. This gives additional strength and prevents wear on the most vital part of the lacing. You can now put your snowshoes away to dry slowly.
9
10
11
12
FINISHING
Once the lacing is dry you now have the choice of varnishing or not. Varnishing will protect the wood and lacing, but it may not be period correct. Also, once varnished, the lacing is not reusable. If you have to make repairs
later, removing and reusing the lacing is easy if it is not varnished. To remove lacing from toe or heel of unvarnished shoes, cut lanyards at toe and heel and the lacing will come out. To remove lacing from center, wrap with a towel and soak with water. After a few hours the lacing will begin softening and allow you to unlace. Take your time, but keep the lacing wet. The lacing can be reused, assuming that it is still in good condition. If your first lacing effort does not come out the way you wanted, don’t be afraid to remove the lacing and start again. You can reuse it to get a better weave pattern. I did not varnish any of my snowshoes. If anyone knows of any coatings used on 18th century snowshoes, please let me know. Bear grease sound like something that might have been used to protect the wood and lacing, but I have found no reference to anyone using it. Two pairs of my snowshoes were made from two separate pieces of wood. There was an overlap of wood at the toe of one and the heel of the other. I wrapped additional moose hide around these sections to protect them. This can be seen in the photos. Finished snowshoes are shown in photos 9, 10 and 11. I still made a few mistakes, but they are more period correct than what I previously had.
Photo 9 Photo 10 Photo 11
13
TOE STRAPS/SQUAW HITCH
Both references describe how to do this, so I won’t go into the details here. Fred does mention that leather thongs don’t work as well as rope. I plan on trying both this winter to see for myself. CONCLUSION I hope that the reader has gotten enough useful information from this article to try lacing a pair of snowshoes for themselves. If anyone has any questions, comments or additional information to share, please let me know, so it can be included in a followup article. If anyone has information on period correct snowshoes or coatings, please send that also. If anyone has any questions, or needs any help, I can be contacted at [email protected]. All we need now is snow. Hope to see you on the trail in your new snowshoes.

[Beo]

Here are picks on lacing new or old traditional snowshoes.
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/1278/cdocumentsandsettingsmiuu5.th.png (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cdocumentsandsettingsmiuu5.png)http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3719/lacingcj3.th.png (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lacingcj3.png)http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4781/lacing2vf7.th.png (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lacing2vf7.png)

[RBB]

Just for you Rick.

LACING SNOWSHOES

PREPARING RAWHIDE LACING
I cut my hides into 6-inch diameter circles and then carefully cut all around spiraling inward towards the center. I used the same tin snips to cut the new rawhide. How wide you cut your lacing will depend upon the material that you are using. It will vary depending on the type of skin you have and also what part of the animal’s body you get your material from. It will also depend on how wide you want the final lacing to be after it dries. Remember, the rawhide gets narrower after stretching and will get even narrower still after drying in the frame. From the finished photos you can see how much they shrink. You may want to cut a few test pieces, stretch and dry them before you settle on the final width that you want to cut your material. My starting point was to cut ¼” wide laces. After cutting, soak rawhide in water. Once soft enough, I stretched as much as possible. If you have a weak spot, now is the time to find out. After stretching the first time, you’ll want to trim off any uneven areas to keep the lacing uniform in width. They will be easily
identified, as they will not stretch with the rest of the lace, and will remain dark. I used a single edge razor blade over a wood board to do my trimming. BE CAREFUL OF YOUR FINGERS. You want to end up with a consistently stretched width to the lace. If you take care cutting the original lace, trimming will be minimal. Before using, I dried the laces, soaked them again and stretched a second time. Long laces keep splices to a minimum, but they can tangle and knot easily as you weave. Make sure that the hide you use has been properly cleaned and watch for holes and knife cuts in the hide. My 6” moose circles stretched to approximately 13 feet. The elk stretched to approximately 15 feet. Your results will vary. LACING-Make sure that you fully understand the lacing sequence prior to starting. Review the figures carefully. Do not start until you are sure of how to proceed. Even then, it is still easy to get lost as you lace. Make sure that you have cut and soaked
enough laces to do a complete section. My heel sections took 1-2 of the 6” circles and the toe sections took 2-3. The center sections vary greatly with the different snowshoe types and can take from 7 to 10+ of the 6” circles. If you cut too many laces, you can always dry them and reuse at a later time. The lacing of a section of the snowshoe must always be continued without stop until it is finished. During the process, the lacing will get drawn out of shape. You’ll need to straighten it up as you go. Don’t rush. Pay attention to details. I found in one source that the heel and toe are usually cut very light and strung close, with the center usually laced with a heavier rawhide laced much coarser. I’m not sure if this is period correct and from what I found, this was not always the case. In some samples that I’ve seen on display, centers were laced the same as the ends. How you do it is up to you. My elk and moose seemed to dry to the same width. Kreps states that splices should never be made underfoot or on the frame. You need to be watchful of this while lacing. Make sure to keep all lacing wet until you are finished with that section. You can dampen laces as you go. Lanyard-Before you start the heel or toe, you need to string the lanyard in the frame Stretch it very
tight and allow it to dry before adding the lacing. Figure 2 also shows the lacing needle and splicing method. My pattern was too narrow to use a needle, so I laced it in as best I could.

You take a lot more care than I do. I just cut the babiche (lace) and weave it on to the frame. Seems to come out okay. My grandfather would cut his babiche by pounding his (freshly sharpened) hunting knife into a table and going round and round with the rawhide circle. How he could get an even cut this way - I've never been able to figure out, but it worked for him.

I use moose hide and cut it in circles about 16 to 18 inch across. That way, with the larger circle, I get one continuous piece of babiche. I never have to splice while lacing a large area. Good point about getting the whole section done while the rawhide is still wet. Can get tedious, so you should never plan to do it - if you haven't the time to finish. If you do have to splice a section - especially the center section - always make sure to do it toward the edge, rather than the center, of the section.

Older native shoes were often laced with beaver. These older shoes were only expected to last one season, and were not varnished. The oily beaver hide was not as prone to stretching when wet, and the shoes were laced much finer.

If you are going to lace snowshoes, there is an excellent book out by a guy named Gil Gilpatrick from Maine which explains it better than I ever could. Even though I learned how to lace from my grandfather, I've learned things from this book. There is a real sequence you want to follow, and this book shows it - step by step. The only complaint I have is - the "knots" he uses on the sides of the frame are excessively complex - which doesn't allow you to weave as tight as you might. The down side to suing a simple knot is - you have to keep the tension on steady on the lace - which can lead to carpel tunnel problems in your wrists if you do it all the time.

Hopeak:

I don't really care to make snowshoes for people I don't know. It is a lot of work. so when they ask - I tell them $350 a pair. I still end up making a couple pair a year. Some people have too much money. Think I'll go to $450 next year.

RE: Relative merits of pointed toe, long tails...

The only merit of a pointed toe, far as I could ever see, was it is easier to bend the wood. Someone once told me. "It makes it easier to make a trail through the brush." He must never have walked in brush. Some newer companies call these pointed shoes "Ojibwe" or "Chippewa" style. Never seen a pointed pair made by an Ojibwe (of course the Ojibwe tribe stretches from New York State to Montana, so I'm sure it is possible). I figure they were made by prairie people or arctic people who didn't have access to long enough splits to make a regular pair - and also - who didn't have to worry so much about brush.

Long tail: Longer the tail, the more weight there is to lift your snowshoe's toe and keep you from tripping



There are all different types of shoes for use in different conditions. In late autumn, I might carry a pair of bear paws - not because I think they are worth anything, but because they are an easy carry "just in case."

For breaking trail, I use a Michigan (also known as a "Maine") style snowshoe. These are usually 14 inch wide by 48 inch long.

For trails that are already laid down, I use an "Alaskan Trail." These are usually eight to ten inches wide by 56 inches long and have a high lift on the toe.

My Grandma Artichone's shoes were usually about 16 inch wide by 42 inches long, and my great grandfathers "breaking" shoes were 14 inches wide by seven feet long (he was a large man).

[Beo]

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7991/lacing4iu9.th.png (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lacing4iu9.png)http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2940/lacing5rx7.th.png (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lacing5rx7.png)http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7536/lacing6tc4.th.png (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lacing6tc4.png)http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/1528/lacing3ka4.th.png (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lacing3ka4.png)

[Beo]

RBB you can get a really good traditional pair for $150.00 to $165.00 at Faber Snowshoes or go to http://www.fabersnowshoes.com/ and pick a pair you like. The traditional snowshoes are handmade.

[Rick]

What kind of strap cutter to you use to cut your lace? Either of these?

[RBB]

RBB you can get a really good traditional pair for $150.00 to $165.00 at Faber Snowshoes or go to http://www.fabersnowshoes.com/ and pick a pair you like. The traditional snowshoes are handmade.

I like the looks of those MONTAGNAISTRESE, though why the larger pair is cheaper than the smaller pair - is a mystery.

You miss my point. I don't like to make snowshoes for people - so I name a high price. And I certainly don't care to pay for snowshoes when I can make them myself.

A case in point: Ray Boesell is probably the best birchbark canoe builder in our area - and maybe well beyond. He builds a superior product and gets $2000 for a 16 foot canoe. My second cousin lives on Red Cliff Rez and gets $8000 for a 14 foot canoe. I don't think he does as good a job. I asked him about this, and he said, "Some people just have to have their canoe built by a real Indian - and who am I to argue with them."

If people are stupid enough to pay $350 for something that is worth at the most - $200 - who am I to argue with them.

[Sourdough]

RBB, I was wondering if you ever saw old retired snowshoes for sale. I have three pair in storage that are 60 plus years old, I keep them for an investment. People here hang them on the wall. It just seems that the work that goes into making them that the old ones should sell for much more to collectors. I was not suggesting you make and sell snowshoes.

[RBB]

RBB, I was wondering if you ever saw old retired snowshoes for sale. I have three pair in storage that are 60 plus years old, I keep them for an investment. People here hang them on the wall. It just seems that the work that goes into making them that the old ones should sell for much more to collectors. I was not suggesting you make and sell snowshoes.

No I don't.

A few years back, you could buy a used pair for $35 to $50 -or $5 at a rummage sale - then antiques people started buying them up, right and left. One of them told me he would take a truckload to Texas, every year, and it would pay for his winter vacation. He said for some reason people in Texas were mad to have snowshoes hanging on their wall (go figure). Around here, people hang them in a garage or shed - and use them in the winter.

I've heard that since 9-11 - the going rate for (antique) snowshoes has dropped substantially - along with the prices on most antiques. Out of about five antique stores, locally, only one remains. However, the old snowshoes were pretty much cleaned out by the antiques people prior to 9-11 so you just don't see them around like you used to.

[Rick]

So, if someone falls in, what binding is the best based on the discussion?

[Sourdough]

So, if someone falls in, what binding is the best based on the discussion?

Rick,
Do you want to get rich, (slowly) let's invent it. until then I will keep using my "Bob Maki" Bindings, not perfect, just the best I 've used. I still like the three pin ski binding idea. The problem is you must use a three pin boot.

[Rick]

So can we summarize by saying that:

1. The type of clothing is paramount to survival.
2. The first minute +/- is spent gaining control over breathing.
3. Remove foot equipment if wearing snowshoes/skies
4. Kick to assume a horizontal position and "swim" back onto the ice. Roll to safety.
(if carrying spikes, then use them to pull yourself onto the ice as you kick.)
5. If unable to extricate yourself, place your arms as far onto the ice as possible to reduce heat loss. Allow arms to freeze to ice to prevent sliding into the water. (This may be futile where help would not be expected).

Anyone care to make corrections?

[RBB]

So, if someone falls in, what binding is the best based on the discussion?

Lamp Wicking Trapper (or squaw) hitch. You can kick yourself out of them.

Little disgusted. Have looked through pages and pages of web sites and am unable to find a photo or drawing of a trapper (squaw) hitch binding. Everyone snowshoeing in a wilderness area should know how to tie this binding for emergency use.

[RBB]

So can we summarize by saying that:

1. The type of clothing is paramount to survival.
2. The first minute +/- is spent gaining control over breathing.
3. Remove foot equipment if wearing snowshoes/skies
4. Kick to assume a horizontal position and "swim" back onto the ice. Roll to safety.
(if carrying spikes, then use them to pull yourself onto the ice as you kick.)
5. If unable to extricate yourself, place your arms as far onto the ice as possible to reduce heat loss. Allow arms to freeze to ice to prevent sliding into the water. (This may be futile where help would not be expected).

Anyone care to make corrections?

Sounds perfectly reasonable (he said, as he sat inside with his feet up in front of the fire place).

[wildWoman]

Sounds good, hope none of us will ever have to do it...Do carry some sort of sharp tool or gadget to pull yourselves out, people...On the river, we had a guy go through the ice last winter on a skidoo, he was just out visiting the neighbours, and all they found was his gloves and helmet on the ice. Pulling yourself onto ice when your body is all the way in the water may be next to impossible if you don't have something sharp to drive into the ice and haul yourself out with.

[Rick]

Go back and view the video of how to extricate yourself without tools. I do agree with you, however, that pointy things have a use.;)

[wildWoman]

Will have to view the video at another time.....I stil wonder how it would work if you have really thick ice. I had to go rescue my dog one time in spring and swam out to where he had gone through the candle ice (there was a creek coming into the lake, so there was quite a bit of open water). I managed to boost the dog back on and while I was in there tried briefly if I could get myself out, just to see. Wouldn't have worked, it was too high up and the ice was really sharp and cutting me. But I'll watch the video another time, preferably still before the ice goes out in June...

[Rick]

In June!?:eek: If there's ice around here in June it had better be in my iced tea!

[RBB]

Another issue is the good doctor was (relatively) lightly dressed. If you are wearing wool pants and a parka - you are trying to pull probably close to double your body weight up out of the water. The kicking is a good idea, but I think the ice picks are real must.

We have numerous local instances of people going through the ice while snowmobiling - and drowning. Alcohol is often (almost always) involved.

[Rick]

I couldn't agree more. I don't think it was the fact that he was lightly dressed, I think it was the fact he had buoyant snowmobile clothing on. A tremendous difference between that and wool for sure. Imagine that same scenario at some retention pond and the kid is dressed in cotton jeans and a cotton sweatshirt. Little wonder so few survive.

I'm taking a lesson from you northern folks. My water time adventures aren't many but they will include some sharp instruments for clawing my way out.

[Sourdough]

Just fell through again this afternoon. And wanted to point out, try not to over react to quickly. Only the left foot and snowshoe went through to the knee, the slinged firearm slid off left shoulder and went in river, but I caught it by the sling. Because I was pitched forward the snowshoe was stuck. The right foot and knee was up on top of ice. The river current was pushing left foot forward. Got firearm up on the ice in front of me to spread the weight. I did not want to loose the snowshoe in the current under the ice, so removing the snowshoe was going to be a last effort. Saw that if I could dislodge a 12" X 16" by 5" thick chunk of ice on the heel, it might be O.K.. Used the firearm to push ice off and down in the current. Now I could get the heel up and the toe out. All is well.

[Rick]

Man. All I can say is I'm glad everything worked out okay. Heart stopping moment, no doubt. Glad all is well.

[wildWoman]

Glad you got out okay, hopeak! Hey there's easier ways to wash your feet ;) Hope that was your immersion for the season!

[Sourdough]

Glad you got out okay, hopeak! Hey there's easier ways to wash your feet ;) Hope that was your immersion for the season!

Nope that was the second one this year, the other was through the lake. No snowshoes, was not bad, but got both legs washed that time.

[wildWoman]

Do you have much winter moose traffic where you are, hopeak? Have you noticed how they stay away from new ice for a few weeks but keep going out on rotten candle ice in spring? What's your theory on that?

[Assassin Pilot]

Back in Finland we used to go swimming in the winter a few times. We just drilled a hole, swam around and popped back out for air. When we got cold we went into the sauna. I don't think anyone ever got frostbite or anything doing that, we always had a nice hot sauna to go into that warmed our whole body. Plus beer, lots of it too :)

[RobertRogers]

RBB, where did you get the winter mocs?

[RBB]

RBB, where did you get the winter mocs?

Made them.

The first two pair on the left are made of moose hide, the pair on the right is from an oiled cow hide.

The first pair to the left are the style my grandmother and great aunt would make. The center pair are the style my g-g-g-grandmother would make. The pair on the far right were made from leather that is too thick to make a proper pair of mocs, but they seem to work well enough, though they don't look as good as they could. I coat them with a mix of beeswax and bear oil, or Hubbard's Shoe Grease, but they are still only good during dry cold conditions (such as we are having right now).

[RBB]

Back in Finland we used to go swimming in the winter a few times. We just drilled a hole, swam around and popped back out for air. When we got cold we went into the sauna. I don't think anyone ever got frostbite or anything doing that, we always had a nice hot sauna to go into that warmed our whole body. Plus beer, lots of it too :)

We do this as well. Our sauna is about 20 feet from the lake, though we have to go out on the ice about 30 feet to make sure the water is deep enough. The kids had a bunch of friends over a week ago and I cut a hole with the chain saw. I had to warn the kid's friends to jump straight down so they didn't come up under the ice. It is also a good idea to mark the hole afterwards so snowmobiles don't end up going through.

This sauna I tried something different. Instead of pouring a concrete floor or having a solid wood floor - which usually leads to come kind of moisture or rot problems eventually - I did something I'd seen at a friend's hunting shack. The floor on this sauna is 2" X 6" green treated decking material with gaps between each plank - just like a deck. Surprisingly, this works just fine. While the moisture drains away, the heat stays in just fine, as it rises. The kids had the sauna up to 250 degrees Farenheidt last week. That's hot enough for most people.

[Rick]

Back on post 19 of this thread, I told you I sent Dr. Giesbrecht an email and asked him two questions. He has responded:

1.Do you have a preference on the safest type of binding? Removing skis or snowshoes is necessary to extricate yourself from the water. I would think the type of binding could impact how quickly this can be accomplished.

RESPONSE: I do not have a preference. rather it is important to practice undoing whatever binding YOU have with one hand, and without looking at the bindings. In the water you won't be able to see your feet. I did practice this in a pool before the shoot.


2. In your opinion, is it necessary to remove snowshoes? I wouldn't think they offer that much resistance to kicking your feet in the water when trying to get back on ice and might serve a purpose to more evenly distribute your weight while on the ice.

RESPONSE: The proof is in the pudding. You will probably try before taking them off and you might make it. If you don't however, the advice above is important. Can you undo them with one hand and not looking at them.

I did follow up with another email because I was trying to ascertain what the safest binding is. So we'll see. He does bring up several good points in his response. They are A. You should be able to remove your bindings with one hand. B. You should be able to do so without looking at your feet. C. Perhaps practice during the summer might come in handy during the winter.

[Sourdough]

RICK, thanks for doing this. If you find a perfect binding I'll put a door on the Outhouse.

[Rick]

Woo hoo. I'm heading North for sure. Good food and good poo....never mind.

[RBB]

Back on post 19 of this thread, I told you I sent Dr. Giesbrecht an email and asked him two questions. He has responded:

1.Do you have a preference on the safest type of binding? Removing skis or snowshoes is necessary to extricate yourself from the water. I would think the type of binding could impact how quickly this can be accomplished.

RESPONSE: I do not have a preference. rather it is important to practice undoing whatever binding YOU have with one hand, and without looking at the bindings. In the water you won't be able to see your feet. I did practice this in a pool before the shoot.


2. In your opinion, is it necessary to remove snowshoes? I wouldn't think they offer that much resistance to kicking your feet in the water when trying to get back on ice and might serve a purpose to more evenly distribute your weight while on the ice.

RESPONSE: The proof is in the pudding. You will probably try before taking them off and you might make it. If you don't however, the advice above is important. Can you undo them with one hand and not looking at them.

I did follow up with another email because I was trying to ascertain what the safest binding is. So we'll see. He does bring up several good points in his response. They are A. You should be able to remove your bindings with one hand. B. You should be able to do so without looking at your feet. C. Perhaps practice during the summer might come in handy during the winter.

In reference to the above:

The trapper (or squaw) hitch is the only binding I'm aware of that you can get out of simply by kicking hard. It is also easy to remove with one hand as it is tied with a bow across the top of the ankle. I will take some photos of how to tie this hitch when I get time to do so.

[RobertRogers]

Made them.

The first two pair on the left are made of moose hide, the pair on the right is from an oiled cow hide.

The first pair to the left are the style my grandmother and great aunt would make. The center pair are the style my g-g-g-grandmother would make. The pair on the far right were made from leather that is too thick to make a proper pair of mocs, but they seem to work well enough, though they don't look as good as they could. I coat them with a mix of beeswax and bear oil, or Hubbard's Shoe Grease, but they are still only good during dry cold conditions (such as we are having right now).

Yeah, I was looking at the first pair on the left. They would be perfect for my neck of the woods where winters are cold enough that the snow remains "dry" (well, usually - but with that non-existent global warming people think is not happening our winters are getting quirky).

Do you have a pattern? Moose hide is abundant hereabouts.

[yellowcab]

http://audiobookkeeper.ruhttp://cottagenet.ruhttp://eyesvision.ruhttp://eyesvisions.comhttp://factoringfee.ruhttp://filmzones.ruhttp://gadwall.ruhttp://gaffertape.ruhttp://gageboard.ruhttp://gagrule.ruhttp://gallduct.ruhttp://galvanometric.ruhttp://gangforeman.ruhttp://gangwayplatform.ruhttp://garbagechute.ru
http://gardeningleave.ruhttp://gascautery.ruhttp://gashbucket.ruhttp://gasreturn.ruhttp://gatedsweep.ruhttp://gaugemodel.ruhttp://gaussianfilter.ruhttp://gearpitchdiameter.ruhttp://geartreating.ruhttp://generalizedanalysis.ruhttp://generalprovisions.ruhttp://geophysicalprobe.ruhttp://geriatricnurse.ruhttp://getintoaflap.ruhttp://getthebounce.ru
http://habeascorpus.ruhttp://habituate.ruhttp://hackedbolt.ruhttp://hackworker.ruhttp://hadronicannihilation.ruhttp://haemagglutinin.ruhttp://hailsquall.ruhttp://hairysphere.ruhttp://halforderfringe.ruhttp://halfsiblings.ruhttp://hallofresidence.ruhttp://haltstate.ruhttp://handcoding.ruhttp://handportedhead.ruhttp://handradar.ru
http://handsfreetelephone.ruhttp://hangonpart.ruhttp://haphazardwinding.ruhttp://hardalloyteeth.ruhttp://hardasiron.ruhttp://hardenedconcrete.ruhttp://harmonicinteraction.ruhttp://hartlaubgoose.ruhttp://hatchholddown.ruhttp://haveafinetime.ruhttp://hazardousatmosphere.ruhttp://headregulator.ruhttp://heartofgold.ruhttp://heatageingresistance.ruhttp://heatinggas.ru
http://heavydutymetalcutting.ruhttp://jacketedwall.ruhttp://japanesecedar.ruhttp://jibtypecrane.ruhttp://jobabandonment.ruhttp://jobstress.ruhttp://jogformation.ruhttp://jointcapsule.ruhttp://jointsealingmaterial.ruhttp://journallubricator.ruhttp://juicecatcher.ruhttp://junctionofchannels.ruhttp://justiciablehomicide.ruhttp://juxtapositiontwin.ruhttp://kaposidisease.ru
http://keepagoodoffing.ruhttp://keepsmthinhand.ruhttp://kentishglory.ruhttp://kerbweight.ruhttp://kerrrotation.ruhttp://keymanassurance.ruhttp://keyserum.ruhttp://kickplate.ruhttp://killthefattedcalf.ruhttp://kilowattsecond.ruhttp://kingweakfish.ruhttp://kinozones.ruhttp://kleinbottle.ruhttp://kneejoint.ruhttp://knifesethouse.ru
http://knockonatom.ruhttp://knowledgestate.ruhttp://kondoferromagnet.ruhttp://labeledgraph.ruhttp://laborracket.ruhttp://labourearnings.ruhttp://labourleasing.ruhttp://laburnumtree.ruhttp://lacingcourse.ruhttp://lacrimalpoint.ruhttp://lactogenicfactor.ruhttp://lacunarycoefficient.ruhttp://ladletreatediron.ruhttp://laggingload.ruhttp://laissezaller.ru
http://lambdatransition.ruhttp://laminatedmaterial.ruhttp://lammasshoot.ruhttp://lamphouse.ruhttp://lancecorporal.ruhttp://lancingdie.ruhttp://landingdoor.ruhttp://landmarksensor.ruhttp://landreform.ruhttp://landuseratio.ruhttp://languagelaboratory.ruhttp://largeheart.ruhttp://lasercalibration.ruhttp://laserlens.ruhttp://laserpulse.ru

[yellowcab]

http://laterevent.ruhttp://latrinesergeant.ruhttp://layabout.ruhttp://leadcoating.ruhttp://leadingfirm.ruhttp://learningcurve.ruhttp://leaveword.ruhttp://machinesensible.ruhttp://magneticequator.ruhttp://magnetotelluricfield.ruhttp://mailinghouse.ruhttp://majorconcern.ruhttp://mammasdarling.ruhttp://managerialstaff.ruhttp://manipulatinghand.ru
http://manualchoke.ruhttp://medinfobooks.ruhttp://mp3lists.ruhttp://nameresolution.ruhttp://naphtheneseries.ruhttp://narrowmouthed.ruhttp://nationalcensus.ruhttp://naturalfunctor.ruhttp://navelseed.ruhttp://neatplaster.ruhttp://necroticcaries.ruhttp://negativefibration.ruhttp://neighbouringrights.ruhttp://objectmodule.ruhttp://observationballoon.ru
http://obstructivepatent.ruhttp://oceanmining.ruhttp://octupolephonon.ruhttp://offlinesystem.ruhttp://offsetholder.ruhttp://olibanumresinoid.ruhttp://onesticket.ruhttp://packedspheres.ruhttp://pagingterminal.ruhttp://palatinebones.ruhttp://palmberry.ruhttp://papercoating.ruhttp://paraconvexgroup.ruhttp://parasolmonoplane.ruhttp://parkingbrake.ru
http://partfamily.ruhttp://partialmajorant.ruhttp://quadrupleworm.ruhttp://qualitybooster.ruhttp://quasimoney.ruhttp://quenchedspark.ruhttp://quodrecuperet.ruhttp://rabbetledge.ruhttp://radialchaser.ruhttp://radiationestimator.ruhttp://railwaybridge.ruhttp://randomcoloration.ruhttp://rapidgrowth.ruhttp://rattlesnakemaster.ruhttp://reachthroughregion.ru
http://readingmagnifier.ruhttp://rearchain.ruhttp://recessioncone.ruhttp://recordedassignment.ruhttp://rectifiersubstation.ruhttp://redemptionvalue.ruhttp://reducingflange.ruhttp://referenceantigen.ruhttp://regeneratedprotein.ruhttp://reinvestmentplan.ruhttp://safedrilling.ruhttp://sagprofile.ruhttp://salestypelease.ruhttp://samplinginterval.ruhttp://satellitehydrology.ru
http://scarcecommodity.ruhttp://scrapermat.ruhttp://screwingunit.ruhttp://seawaterpump.ruhttp://secondaryblock.ruhttp://secularclergy.ruhttp://seismicefficiency.ruhttp://selectivediffuser.ruhttp://semiasphalticflux.ruhttp://semifinishmachining.ruhttp://spicetrade.ruhttp://spysale.ruhttp://stungun.ruhttp://tacticaldiameter.ruhttp://tailstockcenter.ru
http://tamecurve.ruhttp://tapecorrection.ruhttp://tappingchuck.ruhttp://taskreasoning.ruhttp://technicalgrade.ruhttp://telangiectaticlipoma.ruhttp://telescopicdamper.ruhttp://temperateclimate.ruhttp://temperedmeasure.ruhttp://tenementbuilding.rutuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)http://ultramaficrock.ruhttp://ultraviolettesting.ru

[yellowcab]

запр (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/4384)153.9 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/748)CHAP (http://eyesvision.ru)Glau (http://eyesvisions.com)ЕМед (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1350633)пред (http://filmzones.ru/t/1307335)Вино (http://gadwall.ru/t/1250617)И�по (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1104558)Roll (http://gageboard.ru/t/1099313)надо (http://gagrule.ru/t/1035090)�ере (http://gallduct.ru/t/1177243)Love (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1553272)Rose (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1481854)Clos (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1700583)Miss (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1400218)
Сайк (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1229036)Мель (http://gascautery.ru/t/1328687)Nico (http://gashbucket.ru/t/1340817)Иллю (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1343115)Fran (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/1312970)твер (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1372415)клей (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1686215)Коне (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/1246249)Lang (http://geartreating.ru/t/1221991)Simo (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1231873)Dave (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1354556)Иллю (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/1387774)Гуда (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/1530100)�мли (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/1321156)Marl (http://getthebounce.ru/t/937668)
Викт (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1252203)Бере (http://habituate.ru/t/1251520)ХоуÑ� (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1231999)чита (http://hackworker.ru/t/1400126)ТаÑ�Ñ� (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1225761)Мини (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1239625)Куха (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1242532)Вите (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1169718)Гром (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1345166)Adob (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1349837)Ð*ицо (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/1228462)Дубо (http://haltstate.ru/t/1239573)Wahl (http://handcoding.ru/t/1300871)Loui (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1687627)XIII (http://handradar.ru/t/1221248)
Соде (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1251286)Фели (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1224921)Гара (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/1221249)Rich (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/835671)Ench (http://hardasiron.ru/t/854798)�игн (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/1048514)Neil (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1240866)ра�� (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/1224814)Зало (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1345949)ELEG (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1547805)Worl (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1547061)Modo (http://headregulator.ru/t/1547844)Прих (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1626605)втуз (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1240225)Sela (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1547209)
remi (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1183289)Яцев (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/820464)Коле (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/1048329)Лохо (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1379374)Luch (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/1003473)Петр (http://jobstress.ru/t/1245983)XVII (http://jogformation.ru/t/1195036)Иллю (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1242735)Пол� (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1224580)Урла (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1370688)Arth (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1223450)thes (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1181191)Bern (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1182682)�ире (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1188038)Circ (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1180832)
Roxy (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1181939)указ (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/852209)Pete (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1187902)ELEG (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1192411)Ð*уби (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/1060284)Geor (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/846478)Бирк (http://keyserum.ru/t/1181723)Zone (http://kickplate.ru/t/1549967)Миро (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1379658)Aroo (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1142797)Орте (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1556332)Пите (http://kinozones.ru/film/4384)Хали (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1244964)Шуку (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1342825)Circ (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1711461)
Come (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1310353)школ (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1248127)Zone (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1549084)Cynt (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1381882)Zone (http://laborracket.ru/t/1549718)Zone (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1549551)Zone (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1549047)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1191394)XIII (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1245842)Arth (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1198010)�рхи (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1355253)Zone (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1194543)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1192774)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1191041)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1192714)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1192814)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1194539)Мору (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1556305)Хамр (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1224710)Zone (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1185849)Chet (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1187270)Zone (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1189836)Ð*ожд (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1579762)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1188129)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1186079)Swam (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1247253)изго (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1159530)Губи (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/151870)Harm (http://laserlens.ru)Agfa (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/588719)

[yellowcab]

Пбмц (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1030401)Heat (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/453437)Heat (http://layabout.ru/shop/99444)Wrap (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/21408)Ð�Ñ€Ñ�л (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/63651)Arth (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/174913)Sauv (http://leaveword.ru/shop/144680)HS-2 (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/54301)Libe (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/176890)B863 (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/145173)Pres (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/46847)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/266770)Adri (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/145308)помо (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159084)ARAG (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/612783)
Бурц (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/153866)хиру (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1026)kbps (http://mp3lists.ru/item/4384)Hiro (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/144524)Edit (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/103784)�кре (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/343550)мате (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/145751)книг (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/11503)Кита (http://navelseed.ru/shop/100389)Sale (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/123167)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/25325)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/175136)Beif (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/23547)FASB (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/106794)DeLo (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/97338)
Unit (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/97920)Ñ�ерт (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/458500)Dars (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571345)Орло (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147278)Тать (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/151006)Мель (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/30628)Anto (http://onesticket.ru/shop/353649)Mist (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/578717)Code (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/585465)Бара (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/200815)Life (http://palmberry.ru/shop/204116)ЛитÐ* (http://papercoating.ru/shop/579895)Ð�тил (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/684146)Rich (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1165530)Гриб (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1165601)
Rode (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1066782)Го�у (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1167347)поте (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/154044)Khwa (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/153050)thra (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/586726)Come (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/504122)авто (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/124284)Vyta (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1068391)Кома (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/123965)Гера (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/69421)Санк (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/326222)Back (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/508499)Волк (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/620527)Dead (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/125681)(Вед (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/125390)
Vide (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/86510)Сиде (http://rearchain.ru/shop/318243)�ику (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/472883)назв (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/13960)Robe (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1046389)Липа (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1058169)41-4 (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1066991)Каза (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1692140)Селе (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1198872)изда (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/120553)Worl (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1297699)Коло (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1033736)Opro (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1063796)PopS (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1400394)(лам (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1407263)
Jewe (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1423040)Цирк (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1217584)наÑ�Ñ‚ (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1487287)Лука (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/166193)Edwa (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/246569)Ð�реф (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/107353)ИÑ�по (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/39774)выру (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/47183)Darr (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/398005)Форм (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/66355)Harm (http://spicetrade.ru)Harm (http://spysale.ru)Harm (http://stungun.ru)маши (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/460191)Ð*адз (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/467431)
Моро (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/82272)Липи (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/83244)Воро (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/484421)Чи�т (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/496220)Musi (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1813793)Aren (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/619883)John (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/619684)орга (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/259190)штра (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/397429)Дроз (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/429770)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Сева (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/460354)Dmit (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/475304)

[yellowcab]

audiobookkeeper (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)