been on my mind

[wareagle69]

so at first i found it amusing, then annoying now just baffling, what WE what is it, well i'll tell ya, the threads asking what to take into the bush, like what 8 items or how much to pack in a backpack.
the more i research this, by doing and reading, currently a book by calvin rutstrum paradise below zero it just makes me wonder what some are thinking.
But it always makes me wonder what the true mountain men and bushmen and trappers would think if they came across this

[Sourdough]

But it always makes me wonder what the true mountain men and bushmen and trappers would think if they came across this.


One group lived with their boots in the field, and One group lives with their A$$ at a computer having daydreams........:innocent:

[hunter63]

But it always makes me wonder what the true mountain men and bushmen and trappers would think if they came across this

They would just shake their head, go about their business, betting amongst themselves, on how long before they saw that scalp on a lodge pole.

Mostly they wouldn't care less, they went out there because they were running from something, couldn't stand being told what to do or just like being on their own.

Still a lot of them out there, I expect, just don't have much to do with technology.

[BENESSE]

One group lived with their boots in the field, and One group lives with their A$$ at a computer having daydreams........:innocent:

Now let's get real. There's a time for boots in the field, and there's a time for a$$ at computer screen. The two aren't mutually exclusive and are equally valuable.
At a time when a lot of battles are fought remotely (not a hand to hand combat) a fat pimply faced nerd can wreak more havoc or save the day just by sitting on his beehind knowing what buttons to push. It doesn't take a lot of imagination or prompting from Hollywood to contemplate the various scenarios.
All I can say is this: Be prepared, be well rounded, be a "Renaissance Person" of survival.

[rwc1969]

I appreciate all the threads on here, even the ones I severely disagree with.

No such thing as a stupid question in my book, poorly thought out questions yeah, responses that lack original thought yeah, but no such thing as a stupid question.

Maybe if some of these posts were tolerated more the folks would stick around long enuf to learn a thing or two and they'd quit asking them there types a questions in the first place.

[wareagle69]

ironically i used to learn from books and computers when living in the city, now in the country i have better access to the bush for research and also contacts that have good experience, a co worker is a trapper a neighbor and co worker is a dog sledder and of course allen beauchamp.
one thing that is pounded into my head is the knives, i too have carried the ramob knife and a kukhri, thn an axe cuz survivorman does in the north.
I have found that my 2in folding gerber blade will skin any animal even a moose yes a 2in blade, then i also carry a 4" fixed blade for battoning firewood and also a small buck saw which is much safer than an axe and also muck less effert and sharpening.
food,clothing,shelter and actually being able to dicern what i need from what i have read and seen that others need, now i rarely carry a large pack, if i go into the bush for a week i find a way to transport via a travois or sled, saves energy and can transport much more

[rwc1969]

There's definitely a huge difference between what someone wants based on the coolness factor vs. what someone needs or what is more practical.

But, if it weren't for the computer searchin' and day-dreamin' types that have been heavily influenced by Rambo, Bear Grylls, Chris McCandless or what have you, these forums would likely not exist.

A lot of the bushcraft skills some strive to learn are un-neccessary if you really get down to the nuts and bolts of it. Most people who have internet access would rarely if ever find themselves in a situation where there wasn't access to some modern means to get the same result without resorting to hot rock boiling, or rubbing sticks together to get fire.

But, that doesn't mean it's stupid to practice bushcraft. A lot of the things we do because we want to, not because we're planning for the inevitable. I guess that's the difference. If a kid wants to have a cool knife or limit his or her BOB to ten items that will fit into an Altoids tin then so be it.

I think we all spend too much time sitting in front of the computer screen though. I know I do. If I'm not looking for work, writing code, setting up my website, or other homework I'm on here.

I've spent the last week writing code for GUI apps and putting the finishing touches on my website project. Endless hours in front of this screen. This morning I wanted to get out and harvest some Ground cherries, acorns, and hazelnuts. But, decided to do a Google search for Ground Cherry look-similars and varieties, got distracted by all the mis-information about them and here I am, typing a bunch of dribble that really isn't gonna affect any good change instead of getting out to the gravel pit while it's still cool, catching some fish, pickin some Ground cherries and trying to figure out what those two overly abundant yellow flowered plants are.

[rwc1969]

Now let's get real. There's a time for boots in the field, and there's a time for a$$ at computer screen. The two aren't mutually exclusive and are equally valuable.
At a time when a lot of battles are fought remotely (not a hand to hand combat) a fat pimply faced nerd can wreak more havoc or save the day just by sitting on his beehind knowing what buttons to push. It doesn't take a lot of imagination or prompting from Hollywood to contemplate the various scenarios.
All I can say is this: Be prepared, be well rounded, be a "Renaissance Person" of survival.

I like that, not so sure about the Renaissance part, but I do like it.

[welderguy]

I appreciate all the threads on here, even the ones I severely disagree with.

Maybe if some of these posts were tolerated more the folks would stick around long enuf to learn a thing or two and they'd quit asking them there types a questions in the first place.

First thing a newbie should do is search the forum and see what the responce is to the other 100 plus posts on the same subject. Maybe it's just me but I have no desire to wonder off into the woods with out my comfort items unless I have to, if I want to practice my primitive skills or my bush craft I can do that in my backyard.

[Sarge47]

Some, like WE & Sourdough, are blessed to be in the enviable position that they are with the skill level that they have achieved. However that doesn't mean that we "throw the baby out with the bathwater." If someone isn't in a position to do what others have done simply because they don't have access, there's no reason to criticize them. There are those who are "city-bound, sometimes with ongoing diseases or old age; who lack the strength &/or fortitude to do what the others have done on a daily basis. Does that mean that they shouldn't do everything possible to learn what they can about Survival?

On the other hand, there are those who do simply want to daydream or come up with unrealistic thoughts based on reality survival shows. I do agree with WE that these endless questions like the one he posted are silly, however, if it helps somebody to understand survival techniques, then I'd have to say that's what this site is here for.

Finally, I'd only "baton" a knife to cut firewood if I had no other choice, it's what the axe was invented for, and with the new, lightweight, models of hand axes or folding hand-saws on the market, there's no reason not to carry one, especially if you're a "hardy" individual. :sneaky2:

(BTW, I would carry my Mora in most outdoor situations.)

[BENESSE]

I like that, not so sure about the Renaissance part, but I do like it.

:)
I took some liberties with the Renaissance Person. The actual term is a Renaissance Man and this is what it means:

"The terms Renaissance man is used to describe a person who is well educated or who excels in a wide variety of subjects or fields.[3] The idea developed in Renaissance Italy from the notion expressed by one of its most accomplished representatives, Leon Battista Alberti (1404–1472): that "a man can do all things if he will." It embodied the basic tenets of Renaissance humanism, which considered humans empowered, limitless in their capacities for development, and led to the notion that people should embrace all knowledge and develop their capacities as fully as possible. Thus the gifted people of the Renaissance sought to develop skills in all areas of knowledge, in physical development, in social accomplishments, and in the arts.

I also believe in that approach when it comes to preparedness & survival.

[tsitenha]

The common understanding of a Samurai was/is the "renaissance man" after the great wars in feudal Japan this class of Japanese extended their daily life/education to be a more complete person.

Right Sarge that's what an ax is for, nice to know how to "baton" but use the right tool for the job if available, not a butter knife as a screwdriver.

[Rick]

Benesse - I like your #4 post. I think there is a place for both and an opportunity to learn and/or teach from both. Knowledge is knowledge no matter how it is obtained. It would be ideal if everyone could spend quality time in the bush as Sarge said but not everyone has the time, geography or even the inclination to do so.

About the batoning. I think there is a place for it too. I use my RAT-7 for batoning on occasion. It's a dang site lighter than hossin' an axe and splitting a couple of sticks hasn't done it any harm. If I need to split wood then I use a maul, not an axe. Never use a butter knife as a screwdriver.:innocent:

[PNW]

There is a continuing request for newby information;......and a continuing reply to search the archives, from the established members.

You do not know what to ask for when you are new. So the search function is helpful, but not the end all that you established members think it is.

Common terms are used here, that are not common to a new person.

This is not a criticism of ANYONE. It is hopefully a understanding of why the tedious repeat of certain questions.

[Sourdough]

Rick, I disagree. A young man could have spent the entire summer, helping me build the new cabin (Hands-on), watched me make mistakes now and then, Helped build the septic system, cribs, drain fields, waste water lines, insulate the water lines, harvest wood. And could go off and do it himself, build his own homestead.

I have offered, Dogman has offered, others have offered, but people don't really want to do it.........they want to dream about it, live vicariously through "Wildwomen, Dicks, "One mans Wilderness". It is all entertainment. People get all upset when "Wildwomen" and "Alaskan Survivalist" stop posting. They supply the entertainment (Content) Chris gets the money, and the 15 year old dreamer logs on, learns some information so he can chirrup about it to his friends.

I learned a lot from "Some" of the members, on how to install a septic line, how to do a waste water vent, and much more, but then but boots in the field and built it. I got that info from guys like "Nightshade" who has years of plumbing with "Boots in the Plumbing field".

I say you can not top hands on experience. "Boots in the Field" You can read about butchering a moose on a flat dry meadow, you can watch the video, but till you have butchered a moose while standing in 4 feet of water alone with no help, and you are roped off to a tree, in 34* water, well you ain't got no field time.

I just wish one 20 year old would come back, and give his account of his year in the wilderness alone, hell hundreds have come on here proclaiming they were going to do it, or walk across Canada. (End of RANT)

[Winter]

I've been doing the interweb thing for about 10 yrs now. I'm a member of 6 forums.

Two military forums, two knife forums, one massive firearm forum, and this one which I am a newb in.

The same questions are always asked by newbs. It is the nature of the internet.

I find that in all forums, this one included, that the "old salts" are often frustrated with the same question and instead of ignoring the question they criticize it being asked.

I have done this myself on other forums. I just wanna smack the originator of every "what's the best knife?" post.

This is the C&P of my last answer to this question.


"There is no best survival knife.

If you don't have the skills and practice, it really doesn't matter what knife you have. If you have the skills, a $10 mora will do what a $500 custom will. I own $10 Moras and $500 customs. Anything more then the mora is just for my vanity. "



I damn near wanna pull my hair out in these threads when people show their brand new knife and tout it as the BEST survival knife on the planet.

I understand the frustration. I also understand that there are more then one way to skin a cat.

Once I was told that "No serious woodsman carries a large knife. They carry a hatchet."

That is the kind of trolling crap that really annoys me and if true, I'd be dead already because I've never carried a hatchet and I've been marooned on the beach after our boat sunk. My bowie did all I needed it to do.

People who go out and have tools that work for THEM have opinions I trust.

My assumption that this forum has quite a few people who do get out there is why I'm here. I'm here to learn but someone with less experience than me is someone I can teach/help.

So, when you old salts get an annoying redundant question. Let your newer people deal with it and avoid causing yourself unnecessary stress.

[welderguy]

When I was in my late teens early twentys all I did was work ranches From southern arizona to jacksonhole wy. I lived off horse back out of saddle bags and cantle bag. I ran fence in everything from 120 degrees to minuse 20 below . I have had my share of boots in the field now I prefer my azz in a hamock with all the comforts I can carry in my truck when my boots are in the field.

[Erratus Animus]

This post is not entirely about what ruffles feathers but it is the same ground that all our ancestors faced; that is the changing of the guard. Ppl are taught to guess and to rely on others for their information. while this is not all bad there is a clear gap in every generation. We are now seeing the product of our past teachings too the future of tomorrow.

This may and does upset ppl from time to time but let us all remember that how we handle ourselves now will encourage or discourage others to want to know more. Not one person on this forum was born with innate wilderness skills, they were taught to us or learned through self motivation. As the popularity of "survival tv" increases it is natural that those that want to know more about a subj will come here with what seems like dumb questions because they are armed only with the information that is "commonly" promoted.

It would be helpful to have stickies with FAQ for each section. A person can be referred too them and then a follow up with them to see how they are doing would be more beneficial than just saying search it out.

Knowledge gained from a book , a computer, radio, an instructor is just that knowledge gained. The application of that knowledge is called experience. Experience is what refines the knowledge we received. So if a person may be able to learn things but based on where they live or their age, and possible their parents it maybe hard or impossible to put into application. This of course does not mean that they cant do anything , just some things.

If we dont take the time to properly GUIDE them then who will?

E A

[Sourdough]

When I was in my late teens early twentys all I did was work ranches From southern arizona to jacksonhole wy. I lived off horse back out of saddle bags and cantle bag. I ran fence in everything from 120 degrees to minuse 20 below . I have had my share of boots in the field now I prefer my azz in a hamock with all the comforts I can carry in my truck when my boots are in the field.

That is fine, and I am almost there. My issue is that people don't really want to learn, I watch the times of day that people are logged on, and I think many are bored sitting in their office, they can't have a TV, so they get entertainment on the forums. I would be real impressed if someone said, "I am taking 3 weeks vacation, and spending it at "Dogmans", or "WildWomans".

I think people are just masturbating about survival, and will not remember squat about what they learned here, in a book, or You-tube when their personal "CHIT" hits the fan.

[trax]

I just want to add, and maybe someone said it because I skimmed through some responses, but---the old time mountain men, trappers etcetera took the technology that they had available to them. If they had today's technology, they'd jump on it. They went into the wilderness facing a tough way of life and faced it, but they didn't go out trying to make it tougher on themselves. As far as the what should I take questions, I'm of a mind that a lot of people don't necessarily have the option of going out into the bush immediately and learning hands on, so they come here and ask. We provide a pretty nice service by giving them sensible answers.

That being said, and given my own background, the posers make me want to puke just as much as the next guy.

[welderguy]

That is fine, and I am almost there. My issue is that people don't really want to learn, I watch the times of day that people are logged on, and I think many are bored sitting in their office, they can't have a TV, so they get entertainment on the forums. I would be real impressed if someone said, "I am taking 3 weeks vacation, and spending it at "Dogmans", or "WildWomans".

I think people are just masturbating about survival, and will not remember squat about what they learned here, in a book, or You-tube when their personal "CHIT" hits the fan.

absolutly agree with you about that point as well as other points. My whole problem with the what do I need to survive question is it's over done to the point it's funny.

[Rick]

Sourdough - I don't disagree with anything you said. I've always valued hands on experience but I don't discount information from any source. That was my only point. It would be ideal to have a mentor like you to spend time with. Not everyone has that opportunity for a variety of reasons (even thought it's been offered). And, as you point out, most simply don't want to.

I'd like to address a couple of other comments/suggestions.


There is a continuing request for newby information;......and a continuing reply to search the archives, from the established members.

You do not know what to ask for when you are new. So the search function is helpful, but not the end all that you established members think it is.


I can't speak for all members so I'll only yack for me. I KNOW the search function is not that great. It's good but not perfect. I ask new members to use it so they will learn to search for things on their own and not simply rely on someone else telling them something. Research is a valuable tool in most of life's endeavors. I also tell them if they can't find it then ask. Some of my best mentors have told me to figure it out then helped me out when I brought the answer back to them. That's learning that generally stays with you.


Common terms are used here, that are not common to a new person.

That's why I put together an abbreviations and terms sticky. Actually three of them because of the size.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8


So, when you old salts get an annoying redundant question. Let your newer people deal with it and avoid causing yourself unnecessary stress.

I don't do stress. :) Questions like that really don't bother me. I may crack wise or make some joke but I don't get ruffled very easily. I KNOW that we've all been in that place at one time or another and move us into the right environment and we'd be the newbie all over again. So if I can help, I try to. That's why you see me post a lot of threads that have already covered the subject being asked about.


It would be helpful to have stickies with FAQ for each section. A person can be referred too them and then a follow up with them to see how they are doing would be more beneficial than just saying search it out.

We actually do have that. There are loads of stickies in each section. We don't have FAQs per se for the section (we do have a FAQ for the forum) but the stickies generally cover those things most asked about. Some of the newer sections like the gun or knife section don't have stickies yet. But that's only because they are new sections.


My issue is that people don't really want to learn,

Sadly, a lot of truth there. They want the accolades. The want the benefit. They want the result. But they don't want to work for it. I see it more and more.

[Ken]

That is fine, and I am almost there. My issue is that people don't really want to learn, I watch the times of day that people are logged on, and I think many are bored sitting in their office, they can't have a TV, so they get entertainment on the forums. I would be real impressed if someone said, "I am taking 3 weeks vacation, and spending it at "Dogmans", or "WildWomans".

Some do and some don't. I'm often logged in from my home office, and I can still have a TV on if I want to. :) And I've still got a few pairs of those boots that I wore out in the field. Still, the Forums have evolved to a point where we discuss far more than surviving in the wilderness alone. And just think -- if TSHTF, even an urban area can quickly transform into a wilderness where the same skills may mean the difference between life and death.

But yeah, I'll be the first to admit that except for a handful of day hikes, I haven't been out in the bush, or more accurately, on the mountains, in a lot longer than I'd like. Columbus Day weekend in 2008 was my last trek up to the White Mountains. Three days and two nights of keeping up with my 2 sons (then 19 and 21) and 62 miles of popping Advils when they weren't looking. :innocent:

Thing is, Sourdough, life often gets in the way of playtime. Sometimes I envy you and other times ......... We've all chosen different lifestyles. But it's like a bicycle. Once you learn how to ride..........

So for what it's worth, I've done it, I've taught many others how to do it, and I can still do it today, just a little bit :innocent: slower and with a little more caution than when I was 25. From my teens into my 40's, if I wasn't on the ocean, this neck of the woods, in Robert Rogers neighborhood, was my year-round playground, for a few days or for a few weeks at a time.

http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/forestpolicy/qwXmolk8TbfivFaMVzV8b9jWIiF4dZGO2Z9awGTFIff2SXgG4x VNXTGCeIW3/m_whitnf.gif

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/Nick_48_48/WhiteMountainsNewHampshire54.jpg

[Ken]

I just want to add, and maybe someone said it because I skimmed through some responses, but---the old time mountain men, trappers etcetera took the technology that they had available to them. If they had today's technology, they'd jump on it. They went into the wilderness facing a tough way of life and faced it, but they didn't go out trying to make it tougher on themselves.

*Chuckle*

trax, have you ever heard of EMS? Eastern Mountain Sports? http://www.ems.com/home/index.jsp Today, it's a chain of over 50 retail stores throughout New England down to Virginia. When I began my travels into the woods, there were 2 stores, one in Boston and one in New Hampshire. Today, EMS reminds me of a designer boutique in some ways. I don't believe that REI even existed at the time - not around here, anyway.

Back then, we bought our rope out of a box and cut it off at the length we wanted with our pocket knifes. Carabiners weighed about 20 times what they weigh today, and ultralight was any pack under 50 lbs. If you asked them to see a 3 lb. tent, they'd have probably thought you were tripping on acid. We carried canteens and camelbaks were humps on dessert animals. GPS was three random letters of the alphabet. Sleeping bags stuffed down to the size of a microwave oven. Water purification meant boiling or using iodine tablets.

Yeah, I gladly embrace today's techology. :blushing:

[Ken]

One group lived with their boots in the field, and One group lives with their A$$ at a computer having daydreams........:innocent:

There's something you may have forgotten:

Many of us were kept away from the fields we once spent so much time in because our time was required on OTHER fields. Little league fields, soccer fields, baseball fields, football fields........ And then there were the karate lessons, and swimming classes, and gymnastic meets, and helping with the homework, and .............

As much as I loved being in the field, I wouldn't trade the time I spent on those OTHER fields for anything in the world. :)

[Sarge47]

We get different types of people on here, & many of you know how I feel about the Numpties who want to risk their lives pursuing foolish ideas on endangering their lives by entering the Wilderness with hardly any equipment at all. Trying to talk sense to them is like talking to a large rock!

Then there's the Newbies, new both on here & in the wilderness. A few listen & learn, some think they know it all and find themselves moving over to the Numpty side of the room. I believe in this old saying: "You can't tell a fool anything, but a word to the wise is usually enough."

Then we have the "Pioneers." These are the folks that live like they did back in the old days. I'll tell you right now, if I was young, single, & had the money I'd of been up there in Alaska helping Sourdough with his cabin. Hey, I was going to follow my best friend up there & he didn't know crap about how to get along in the Wilderness; from Sourdough I could learn a lot! I'd even go to Maine, if I could, & help Ken with the wilderness in his back yard! Screw Canada though, their gun-laws stink! :innocent: :sneaky2:

I'm not going to argue that we all have to see everything the same way. The reality is that because of the fact that people like us get this way because of our independent nature, we couldn't all agree on the color of the sky or the grass! It's one of the reasons I like to watch Cody & Dave bust each other's chops yet, come together at the end of the day.

For those of you who want to know what to take into the Wilderness, read the freakin' sticky on Survival Kits! If you're young enough to join any type of organization, like the Boy Scouts, that promotes experiencing the wilderness 1st hand; then for cryin' out loud, DO IT AND QUIT YOUR BIT*HIN'! If none of the BSA Troops in your local area don't do anything like that, then find a Backpacking club, Sierra Club, or join the military! Listen to the experienced ones on here, learn 1st, by sittin' on your a$$ at the computer, reading everything you can, including the blogs; watching Discovery's "reality survival shows", & reading books, sure! But that's only the beginning of your learning, not the extent of it! Survival means using EVERY resource available, even other people, groups, and getting out there and getting your boots muddy! Just think, you might be able to help an old curmudgeon even make a door for his out-house! His neighbors won't be able to thank you enough, not to mention the effect it'll have on the local wildlife! :innocent: Just my "buck-two-fifty!" :cool2:

[rwc1969]

Lots of good thoughts so far in this thread.

The only thing I can think of offhand that urks me about these and other forums and their members is the lack of focus on food. I think it's because it's one of the most difficult and maybe least exciting parts of it all.

People want to know if a plant is edible, but not many want to take the time to learn how to ID the plant themselves. "Oh, them's just too big a words for me. I'll just stick to killing deer and let them figure out how to ID the plants or leach out the acorns."

People want to learn what's the best deadfall, etc, is or how to set it up, attract critters to it, etc. but they don't want to learn how to field dress, process, cook and or preserve it. "I want to know how to kill food, but could care less about actually knowing how to be able to eat it."

Plenty of people ask what's the best survival gun/ rifle, but they don't seem too interested in the practical application of such a tool. "Which rifle is best and why?" Well, if you put aside all the hype, consider the purpose it will serve, and get down to practical application you'd quickly learn the answer.

Many are interested in the best survival knife and how to hone it to a Mach 3's razor edge and then question whether the razor edge is actually too sharp under certain apps, but they don't seem to interested in learning how to properly and safely use the tool. It's unlikely they will ever need to use the knife under any of the suggested apps in the first place.

So many, including myself, have dreamed of going off hundreds of miles and living in the wilderness. But most fail to realize that if they had the proper skills they could live in the wilderness right outside their backdoor. "Give me a fish", not "Teach me how to catch fish for myself". Once you start teaching them how to fish they get bored and the "fun" looks more and more like work. "That's not what I read or saw on TV!" "Well, maybe so but it's what I've been doing for nearly forty years now and it seems to be working just fine."

Does this make us all stupid or ignorant? No! It just means that we all put values on different things and some of us really aren't intersted in wilderness survival or the like AT ALL, but, actually are just interested in the entertainment factor of it all.

Packing up your BOB with a few really cool and useful items, heading off to the bush to be at one with or against nature, setting really intricate traps and building organic huts that are as watertight as a bullfrog's *** are easier, more available, and more interesting things to dream about and do than say; field dressing a squirrel, or making due with a less than razor sharp knife, or discovering the best utilitarian use for a certain item. "I don't want to skin a squirrel or reach inside and pull his guts out." "Just teach me how to set the trap."

It's much funner and seemingly more impressive to build sticks with fire than it is to preserve a moose for the season using entirely primitive means. It's much funner using your Billy can to cook ramen noodles than using a burdock leaf to steam up some wild veggies and fish that you got by learning to safely and properly ID and harvest them. who the hell wants to know how to can veggies, keep milk good without refrigeration, process acorns, know the right time to gather roots, or build a root cellar or smokehouse? Not nearly as many as those who want to know "What's the best survival knife?" or "What's this plant?"

Or, maybe it's just that people can relate to it better than say, SD putting a roof vent in. You know? that's not really a wilderness skill, but I guess it has everything to do with actually living up there in AK because SD is doing it, uh, and he lives up there.

I think you can tell the ones who are serious and have thought about it by their questions. Questions that include when, why or how are ones that are most likely more well thought out. VS. Questions that simply say who, what or where.

What is this plant vs. how can I determine what this plant is?

Who is the best survivalist vs. Why is so and so considered a good survivalist?

Where should I go to live in the wild vs. How can I live in the wild?

Where can I find Dogbane vs. Where can I find Dogbane, when is the time for harvest, and how did you determine that?

Does that mean a simple who, what, where, when, why or how question isn't well thought out or is stupid or ignorant? No! It just means the other ones are "more well thought out" and in some eyes more deserving of a good "more well thought out" answer.

You ain't gonna learn nothing by not asking those six types of questions, but you will get better answers if you use them in combination or with follow up questions of the same type.

You can learn it all by simply doing it "boots in the field style" and not asking any questions, but it will take longer, you might get hurt or die, and mistakes will be made.

Regardless, you will never learn a single thing if you don't get out in the field and practice the stuff you think you learned by asking these questions in the first place. Because until you've done it, you haven't learned a thing.

I've asked questions, practiced skills, made mistakes, "plenty of boots in the field" too, but, I haven't lived in the wilderness. So, I haven't learned a thing about living in the wilderness. I've learned lots of skills that may be applied to wilderness living/ survival, but I haven't lived it, therefore I know nothing about living in the wilderness. I think I know, but, I don't really know for sure.

I guess if something good could come from this thread it'd be that the greenhorns think their questions through more carefully, and the sourdoughs would be more lenient when they don't. Steer them in the right direction instead of shoving them off into the ditch.

But, when it comes down to it if you don't know how to ID, become familiar with, harvest, prepare, eat and store wild foods, or cultivated foods for that matter, you are putting yourself at a loss and all the wilderness skills and fancy gear won't help you one bit when the S do hit the F. You can learn primitive fire, shelter and water, but without food, the foundation of survival, you'll still die, just a lot slower and much more uncomfortably.

People think they can go long time without food, and many do on a regular basis, but try it for a day, 3 days, a week and tell us how you feel. I guarantee after day one you won't be feeling so well even if you're dry, warm, and well hydrated. If you don't eat after day one you will be thinking unclear, probably have a massive headache and gutache and will be wishing you knew if that plant was edible. Then you'll start making mistakes because you let your hunger get the best of you. You'll end up eating something that might make you sicker or kill you and when you do find that moose or a bunch of fish you won't be able to preserve them even for a few days. then you'll have your cake....eat it!

All these forums have endless threads and sub-forums on a multitude of subjects and only one teeny weeny sub-forum of a sub-forum on food. If you are lucky enough to find one, most of the info is just re-gurgitated bullcrap about the ancient uses and very little first hand knowledge.

That's the only thing that urks me about the questions WE started this thread over. It's those kinda questions that breed these kinda forums.

[Sarge47]

Lots of good thoughts so far in this thread.

The only thing I can think of offhand that urks me about these and other forums and their members is the lack of focus on food. I think it's because it's one of the most difficult and maybe least exciting parts of it all.

People want to know if a plant is edible, but not many want to take the time to learn how to ID the plant themselves. "Oh, them's just too big a words for me. I'll just stick to killing deer and let them figure out how to ID the plants or leach out the acorns."

People want to learn what's the best deadfall, etc, is or how to set it up, attract critters to it, etc. but they don't want to learn how to field dress, process, cook and or preserve it. "I want to know how to kill food, but could care less about actually knowing how to be able to eat it."

Plenty of people ask what's the best survival gun/ rifle, but they don't seem too interested in the practical application of such a tool. "Which rifle is best and why?" Well, if you put aside all the hype, consider the purpose it will serve, and get down to practical application you'd quickly learn the answer.

Many are interested in the best survival knife and how to hone it to a Mach 3's razor edge and then question whether the razor edge is actually too sharp under certain apps, but they don't seem to interested in learning how to properly and safely use the tool. It's unlikely they will ever need to use the knife under any of the suggested apps in the first place.

So many, including myself, have dreamed of going off hundreds of miles and living in the wilderness. But most fail to realize that if they had the proper skills they could live in the wilderness right outside their backdoor. "Give me a fish", not "Teach me how to catch fish for myself". Once you start teaching them how to fish they get bored and the "fun" looks more and more like work. "That's not what I read or saw on TV!" "Well, maybe so but it's what I've been doing for nearly forty years now and it seems to be working just fine."

Does this make us all stupid or ignorant? No! It just means that we all put values on different things and some of us really aren't intersted in wilderness survival or the like AT ALL, but, actually are just interested in the entertainment factor of it all.

Packing up your BOB with a few really cool and useful items, heading off to the bush to be at one with or against nature, setting really intricate traps and building organic huts that are as watertight as a bullfrog's *** are easier, more available, and more interesting things to dream about and do than say; field dressing a squirrel, or making due with a less than razor sharp knife, or discovering the best utilitarian use for a certain item. "I don't want to skin a squirrel or reach inside and pull his guts out." "Just teach me how to set the trap."

It's much funner and seemingly more impressive to build sticks with fire than it is to preserve a moose for the season using entirely primitive means. It's much funner using your Billy can to cook ramen noodles than using a burdock leaf to steam up some wild veggies and fish that you got by learning to safely and properly ID and harvest them. who the hell wants to know how to can veggies, keep milk good without refrigeration, process acorns, know the right time to gather roots, or build a root cellar or smokehouse? Not nearly as many as those who want to know "What's the best survival knife?" or "What's this plant?"

Or, maybe it's just that people can relate to it better than say, SD putting a roof vent in. You know? that's not really a wilderness skill, but I guess it has everything to do with actually living up there in AK because SD is doing it, uh, and he lives up there.

I think you can tell the ones who are serious and have thought about it by their questions. Questions that include when, why or how are ones that are most likely more well thought out. VS. Questions that simply say who, what or where.

What is this plant vs. how can I determine what this plant is?

Who is the best survivalist vs. Why is so and so considered a good survivalist?

Where should I go to live in the wild vs. How can I live in the wild?

Where can I find Dogbane vs. Where can I find Dogbane, when is the time for harvest, and how did you determine that?

Does that mean a simple who, what, where, when, why or how question isn't well thought out or is stupid or ignorant? No! It just means the other ones are "more well thought out" and in some eyes more deserving of a good "more well thought out" answer.

You ain't gonna learn nothing by not asking those six types of questions, but you will get better answers if you use them in combination or with follow up questions of the same type.

You can learn it all by simply doing it "boots in the field style" and not asking any questions, but it will take longer, you might get hurt or die, and mistakes will be made.

Regardless, you will never learn a single thing if you don't get out in the field and practice the stuff you think you learned by asking these questions in the first place. Because until you've done it, you haven't learned a thing.

I've asked questions, practiced skills, made mistakes, "plenty of boots in the field" too, but, I haven't lived in the wilderness. So, I haven't learned a thing about living in the wilderness. I've learned lots of skills that may be applied to wilderness living/ survival, but I haven't lived it, therefore I know nothing about living in the wilderness. I think I know, but, I don't really know for sure.

I guess if something good could come from this thread it'd be that the greenhorns think their questions through more carefully, and the sourdoughs would be more lenient when they don't. Steer them in the right direction instead of shoving them off into the ditch.

But, when it comes down to it if you don't know how to ID, become familiar with, harvest, prepare, eat and store wild foods, or cultivated foods for that matter, you are putting yourself at a loss and all the wilderness skills and fancy gear won't help you one bit when the S do hit the F. You can learn primitive fire, shelter and water, but without food, the foundation of survival, you'll still die, just a lot slower and much more uncomfortably.

People think they can go long time without food, and many do on a regular basis, but try it for a day, 3 days, a week and tell us how you feel. I guarantee after day one you won't be feeling so well even if you're dry, warm, and well hydrated. If you don't eat after day one you will be thinking unclear, probably have a massive headache and gutache and will be wishing you knew if that plant was edible. Then you'll start making mistakes because you let your hunger get the best of you. You'll end up eating something that might make you sicker or kill you and when you do find that moose or a bunch of fish you won't be able to preserve them even for a few days. then you'll have your cake....eat it!

All these forums have endless threads and sub-forums on a multitude of subjects and only one teeny weeny sub-forum of a sub-forum on food. If you are lucky enough to find one, most of the info is just re-gurgitated bullcrap about the ancient uses and very little first hand knowledge.

That's the only thing that urks me about the questions WE started this thread over. It's those kinda questions that breed these kinda forums.

Okay Remy, Where is RWC & what have you done with him! :innocent:

RWC, You make some good points; 1st just let me say that, for myself, I really don't give 2 farts in the wind about "edible wild plants;" but for those who go far afield I suppose it's important. Going along with what you said about the priorities some members place on guns or knives over most everything else, I'd have to add that their dis-interest also includes 1st aid knowledge & kit along with what you've listed. What they oft-times fail to realize is that they just might need these things in case, for example, they cut themselves really bad with that "razor-sharp" survival knife! :innocent: :sneaky2: :cool2:

[Justin Case]

Good Post RWC !! :)

[Sourdough]

This has evolved into a good thread.........But the "Title" Sucks......Is there a way that WarEagle and one of the Mods could agree on a more gooder title that would grab the attention of a new viewer/loiter/member......?

[rwc1969]

That's kinda the point too Sarge, we all have different ideas of survival, skill priorities, and likes/ dislikes.

So, it's hard for me to judge what is a good or bad question/ good or bad post, but it's easy for me to judge which ones I like, dis-like or have no interest in.

[Trabitha]

IMHO, we're here to learn from one another, and as human beings that have come together, I thought those with lots of knowledge CAME here to TEACH those of us willing to learn from you.
With all due respect...the arrogant, "what are you thinking" mentality does nothing but make people think that this site was more for personal grandstanding rather than education and discussion.

Computers have become our modern day library in many respects. I can gain more information from my home computer than my local library even offers on the subject. Why NOT fill my brain with every bit of knowledge I can find and practice it when I can? Isn't that what preparedness is?

Did I take the original post wrong? Maybe...but to ME...someone that has yet to formally be considered "one of you" and who has repeatedly asked what some may consider "silly questions"...I kind of took it as a jab...and I honestly don't like ot be poked.

[BENESSE]

Well said Trabitha. I share your sentiments.

[Justin Case]

Well said Trabitha. I share your sentiments.

+1,,,,,,,,,

[Sourdough]

IMHO, we're here to learn from one another, and as human beings that have come together, I thought those with lots of knowledge CAME here to TEACH those of us willing to learn from you.
With all due respect...the arrogant, "what are you thinking" mentality does nothing but make people think that this site was more for personal grandstanding rather than education and discussion.


Some get tired of getting used for entertainment and leave, we have lost some very knowledgeable people who have simply tired of giving help to people who are not serious, and only want to be entertained. "WildWoman" is one who just went away, and then "Alaskan Survivalist" got run off, Kevin rarely posts anymore, Chuck has faded away, and many more. Some move to other forums where members are more serious. "This forum is more social than serious". And that is OK.

There are forums where members are drop dead serious, are all adults, and have no time for entertaining or being entertained as they are wide'eyed concerned about the future. The most glaring feature being they are ALL adults.

[rwc1969]

I don't think it has anything to do with being adult, I've visited other forums where there is less horseplay and many of the folks are very young, younger than me actually. Many are under 18 years old and practice these skills and are quite well at them, better so than me or any one I personally know. They joke around too, but they don't let the threads become buried in dribble and nonsense. And they usually delete threads and posts that are fishing or trolling for trouble.

[klickitat]

When it comes to those asking questions:
#1 Those who are totally given over to the lifestyle in all stages of learning.
#2 Those who find the topic interesting.
#3 Those who out of fear feel they may need it some day and view it as a side topic.

In all cases there are different attitudes, experience levels and expectations.

When it comes to those who answer questions:

#1 Those who have done, do and continue to learn themselves and want to pass that information on because they love the topic and want to teach. They usually have patience and are willing to help all that come along. These are the people who make up the foundation of a good site

#2 Those who are all about their own ego. Look at how smart I am and how much better than the next survivalist. I am better and only my ideas are valid. Some of these will move on when offended or bored answering the same question over and over.

I personally like all the groups listed.
The naive kid will some times ask a question I never thought of.
The new will some times bring up a piece of equipment that I never thought of before.
The imaginative will come up with a new way of using something.
As for those who answer the questions (the pros) arrogant or humble, they have experience and a point of view based on experience.

BTW: How people answer questions and or snipe can tell you a lot about that person.

[Sourdough]

rwc1969, Perhaps I should have use the word Mature and not Adult........

[Justin Case]

Forums are all the same in that people come and go, Some get mad if they dont have all the green thingys, some leave because they have found a site they like better, some come here from other sites for the same reasons, some leave after the newness wears off, there are a million reasons why people come and go, It is what it is. JMHO :)

[wareagle69]

how anyone reponds to a post is a relfection upon themselves, not the poster, with out nameing names in a thread a when you read it you think its about you-then it must be about you.
now let me ask a question of all those that feel this thread is about you
out of all the questions you have asked here, have you gone out in the feild and done the research, or just simply read the advice and said"hmm thats cool,next question"

I live by the mantra-knowlege without experience is just information.
if you come here and ask a question you must be prepared for the answer you get.
yes i am extremley fortunate to have the resources i have had in my life,if someone wants to learn then i will share my efferts with them
thats it thats all.

[Justin Case]

Its a discussion forum, not a trade school proper, That said, There is way more knowledge shared here than any one person can go out and practice, I have learned LOTS of stuff here that would be advantageous should I find myself in certain situations,, People learn about History without reliving it for example,, :)

[welderguy]

Its a discussion forum, not a trade school proper, That said, There is way more knowledge shared here than any one person can go out and practice, I have learned LOTS of stuff here that would be advantageous should I find myself in certain situations,, People learn about History without reliving it for example,, :)

True, but there are certain crafts you do want to practice so you can perfect it, like me I am still without success trying to get fire from a bow drill. I want to know i can do it prior to having a need for it.

Now do I need to spend a month in a remote bush area to perfect it Nope.

[Justin Case]

True, but there are certain crafts you do want to practice so you can perfect it, like me I am still without success trying to get fire from a bow drill..

Tape a bic to it :innocent: lol , just kidding, YES there are LOTS of things one should practice , I was just saying that one still benefits from just reading , Its better than nothing if you are unable to practice for whatever reason :)

[BENESSE]

Some get tired of getting used for entertainment and leave, we have lost some very knowledgeable people who have simply tired of giving help to people who are not serious, and only want to be entertained. "WildWoman" is one who just went away, and then "Alaskan Survivalist" got run off, Kevin rarely posts anymore, Chuck has faded away, and many more. Some move to other forums where members are more serious. "This forum is more social than serious". And that is OK.

There are forums where members are drop dead serious, are all adults, and have no time for entertaining or being entertained as they are wide'eyed concerned about the future. The most glaring feature being they are ALL adults.

I am sorry to hear that, I really am! I enjoyed and have learned from his posts even though a lot of stuff I couldn't put into practice. But just because I am not in a position to build a log cabin from the foundation up doesn't mean I am not interested in knowing how it's done.
On a smaller scale, I was so intrigued by how clever and simple it seemed to build a tepee (AS's instructional) that I practiced with 6' long branches just to understand the principle behind it. I can't describe the satisfaction I felt when it actually worked!

I wish I could put into practice everything I ever read about or even everything my parents taught had me. But it all gets filed away somewhere in my brain and with enough informational reinforcements and revisits to that place, I hope I'll be able to bring it forth when I need to.

[Sourdough]

I am sorry to hear that, I really am! I enjoyed and have learned from his posts even though a lot of stuff I couldn't put into practice. But just because I am not in a position to build a log cabin from the foundation up doesn't mean I am not interested in knowing how it's done.
On a smaller scale, I was so intrigued by how clever and simple it seemed to build a tepee (AS's instructional) that I practiced with 6' long branches just to understand the principle behind it. I can't describe the satisfaction I felt when it actually worked!


He (AS) comes here and reads the forum so you could send him a thank you. I truely hope he comes back, as he is a wealth of knowledge. I wish "Wildwoman" would come back as she was a real asset.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Understand this, I quit posting because of my own character flaws not other peoples. This forum is better than most but all forums have similar problems. I come for interesting conversation that can be just as interesting whether I post or not. I wish we could post anonymously and leave the personalities out of it all together. I like to see topics posted and information added to them not picked apart but that is just my preference. I would like to see information that can stand on its own merits and not have to be justified by a persons credentials. It seems that just knowing something is not good enough and must be presented in a form it will be accepted. I have decided to just step back to figure out how to do this. In the meanwhile keep it interesting, I know you will.

[Rick]

One of the things I enjoy about the forum is the diversity in talent, experience and knowledge. Having nothing but experts on here would be a tad boring after a while. New people, even to wilderness survival, bring a new perspective and often new ideas. At the very least those of you with no bush time come in with no bad habits. But make no mistake, I've learned from newbies, too.

WE - I think you are blessed with where you live but if the rest of us are honest then we could have the same environment IF WE TRULY WANTED IT.

Sourdough - If anyone gets run off from a forum then they were pretty thinned skinned no matter what the forum. Some mighty good folks have left, that's true, but they did so on their own accord. No one forced them out the door. But that's the nature of forums in general. Sometimes a forum isn't a good fit for a particular person even though they are gifted in the subject of that forum. Some folks can't get along in real life. Some can't get along on a forum. That's just life.

RWC - That was a good post on wild edibles. You offered up some keen insight into the subject. 1+. Nice post.

[hunter63]

My hat is off to all y'all, this has to be a record....47 good, well thought out, well written, knowledgeable, posts in a row.

I do get discouraged at times especially when a newbie leaves after a couple of posts, You never know what we might be missing.

But y'all are right, people leave for their own reasons.
Experience is the best teacher, and in most of life, it doesn't come easy.
Thanks to all for their input

I have been reminded why I stuck around here in the first place.
Thanks again

[Rick]

Oh, yeah. WE - If you want to change the title just let me or one of the other guys know. Be happy to change it to anything you want......well, within reason. :blushing:

[Sarge47]

Rick makes a great point; anybody that WANTS TO could do what WE & others do. I totally agree, & just let me say that I don't want to. I prefer modern society with all of it's perks, sans politicians of course. If I had the $$$ I'd live in a nice, rural, timbered area and pay some farmer to plow a large garden for my wife to plant her veggies & to help them grow. She won't let me near them because I have a "brown thumb." She blames every crop failure on me. But I do like the primitive wilderness, just not as a lifelong place to live without my creature comforts. :cool2:

[Trabitha]

how anyone reponds to a post is a relfection upon themselves, not the poster, with out nameing names in a thread a when you read it you think its about you-then it must be about you.
now let me ask a question of all those that feel this thread is about you
out of all the questions you have asked here, have you gone out in the feild and done the research, or just simply read the advice and said"hmm thats cool,next question"

I live by the mantra-knowlege without experience is just information.
if you come here and ask a question you must be prepared for the answer you get.
yes i am extremley fortunate to have the resources i have had in my life,if someone wants to learn then i will share my efferts with them
thats it thats all.

That's not at ALL how you approached this thread, wareagle. You entered into this discussion with a chip on your shoulder, implying that people like me who are new to this issue are silly or crazy for asking such questions or starting such topics. This last post now implies that you feel no guilt for your arrogance, yet I should feel guilt for having the audacity of taking it personally.
Not for nothing, but you remind me of that kid in the class room who went out of his way to pick on those who needed more explanation from the teacher and raised their hand in class.

Do I take your post "personally?" Hell no. I don't know you, I know some MANY more knowledgeable members here, and I really don't hold you in high enough regard to take it personally. However your tone is all wrong, and your arrogance has the potential to offend MANY who have not had the time to meet other more personable members.

Let me make this rather simple for you. If you don't like the "silly questions"
simply avoid them. If you don't wish to assist with certain people, don't. But don't post an arrogant, self righteous post and think you're going to come out smelling like anything other than pig dung. *sniff-sniff *

[LowKey]

With forums, it's usually a good idea to poke around a bit before you start posting. Especially one that has an established hierarchy and you're coming in on the ground floor.

Every poster here has their own personality. It's the information and the discussion I come for, and if the information and discussion happens to be shrouded in a gruff tone or maybe a little condescension, eh, so what. It's the skills I respect, most times, not always the attitude.

I've admitted to far less time in the field, not as dirt poor a childhood to require actually living off the land but had parents who were part of the Back to Earth movement and learned a lot from their trials and mistakes. They were the ones who grew up with the impending threat of real nuclear war and sort of instilled that preparedness instinct in me. They are both gone now and it's made me realize that I need to step up more.

Most of the skills I'm interested in are not "what can I carry into the wilderness to survive" but more on "what can I do to be more self reliant and prepared." Sure there are other forums more into the bare-hands survivalist stuff but that's not what I'm after. I came here to find out the current techniques and equipment for Being Prepared, with the hopes someday soon of owning a small piece of land and having a place I can retire into in a decade or two that will have the things I'll want and getting them while I'm in the shape to acquire them.

In return I try to help with some of the plant ID stuff and some of the food preservation stuff. It really does horrify me when newbs really don't know what they are eating out there and can't take the time to learn it right but I'm not particularly caring if they know how to dress a rabbit or clean a chicken.
That's their problem.

[Winnie]

+1 on that Lowkey.

[wareagle69]

That's not at ALL how you approached this thread, wareagle. You entered into this discussion with a chip on your shoulder, implying that people like me who are new to this issue are silly or crazy for asking such questions or starting such topics. This last post now implies that you feel no guilt for your arrogance, yet I should feel guilt for having the audacity of taking it personally.
Not for nothing, but you remind me of that kid in the class room who went out of his way to pick on those who needed more explanation from the teacher and raised their hand in class.

Do I take your post "personally?" Hell no. I don't know you, I know some MANY more knowledgeable members here, and I really don't hold you in high enough regard to take it personally. However your tone is all wrong, and your arrogance has the potential to offend MANY who have not had the time to meet other more personable members.

Let me make this rather simple for you. If you don't like the "silly questions"
simply avoid them. If you don't wish to assist with certain people, don't. But don't post an arrogant, self righteous post and think you're going to come out smelling like anything other than pig dung. *sniff-sniff *

once agin, how do you know my intent, it is your issue not mine, if you felt it was aimed at you then obviously it was.
look we get new folks here that come here and ask what do i need to live in the bush for a year? looking to awe us with the decision they have made, that is after never even spending 2 weeks or a month alone in the bush.
Is that a stupid question? sure as heck is, and as well documented i do not care what people think of me, i am not here for green thingies or freinds, i am here to learn to make my life esier and also to share what i have learned
i am not well gifted with words, i say what i say and some get ruffled at it, oh well, some learn from it-and for that i am pleased. if you are easily upset by how you see some words put together then most are best at passing me by, but when it comes to doing what i do. i do it well and share it, is that arrogant, sure, but i have earned that right. i only post about what i know and have done, not what i speculate about or have read about. maybe i am to much like my mentor, in haveing no use for stupid people, and yes there are alot of them out there, but......there are also alot of good ones out there, but... iwill call a spade a spade, and not get upset with what someone says back, after all its just an opionion

[Rick]

Okay.....let's let it go here, please. You've both had a say back and forth so let's agree to disagree if we must and call a truce.

[Batch]

I have seen respected members post here things I know to be untrue. I mean to make a claim to have has an experience that made no sense what so ever to anyone who had ever been in that environment.

I have members who admit to having little actual experience give me a solid reason for doing something differently.

Forums are all a waste of time and a wealth of information. Like everything it is up to you to try to balance the good with the bad. Get as much information as you can in the amount of time you have to waste.

Give what you can, take what you need and if so inclined get out there and do it.

BTW, I have read several books on climbing Everest. I enjoyed the books and I have absolutely no desire to climb that freaken mountain, aight! :innocent:

[yellowcab]

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Ð*аÑ�у (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1718412)Soul (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/1998863)Марь (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/1778759)Dori (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1996939)Musi (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/1987848)Dark (http://jobstress.ru/t/1903968)Грин (http://jogformation.ru/t/1903940)КинÑ� (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1884141)Сима (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1792727)Eliz (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1788035)Соде (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1745131)Яков (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1811548)орга (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1695496)Корш (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1746692)Иван (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1641687)
Sunr (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1994912)Ибра (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/1718298)Hell (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1903822)Enjo (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1783646)ориг (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/1742306)Gell (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/1720147)тетр (http://keyserum.ru/t/1786891)Timo (http://kickplate.ru/t/1801222)Zone (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1827807)Мое� (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1920259)Goin (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1973893)логи (http://kinozones.ru/film/3092)Harr (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1930563)Diam (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1920241)Ever (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1815355)
Lath (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1850616)That (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1977613)Гимн (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1933210)Jewe (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1920016)Ever (http://laborracket.ru/t/1942909)Stop (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1998836)Boys (http://labourleasing.ru/t/2006056)Linw (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1714882)войн (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1720387)Ð*ощи (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1718423)Ster (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1780210)Thir (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1815350)Соде (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1641688)Live (http://laggingload.ru/t/1825268)Free (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1848477)
Keep (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1902575)Hand (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/2004288)Zone (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1827838)Just (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1772364)Berl (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1762492)�дам (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1718199)Панф (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1637506)Kade (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1994934)Lion (http://landreform.ru/t/1785554)Krea (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1828698)Jewe (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1987862)клей (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161584)замф (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1163619)ме�� (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/948)прои (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590860)

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

раÑ�Ñ� (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/3273)195.9 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/849)CHAP (http://eyesvision.ru)Equa (http://eyesvisions.com/physics/33)Shir (http://factoringfee.ru/t/262037)Guru (http://filmzones.ru/t/129222)Ñ�апо (http://gadwall.ru/t/129408)наро (http://gaffertape.ru/t/298298)Желе (http://gageboard.ru/t/279527)Zodi (http://gagrule.ru/t/15928)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://gallduct.ru/t/166479)Tesc (http://galvanometric.ru/t/68063)Deko (http://gangforeman.ru/t/106102)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/136428)Ð�нда (http://garbagechute.ru/t/295225)
1Ñ�58 (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/135951)Mosc (http://gascautery.ru/t/130782)CONS (http://gashbucket.ru/t/96094)Gard (http://gasreturn.ru/t/166471)Hist (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/175780)Пруд (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/442977)Ð*оди (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/442954)Tesc (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/391323)авто (http://geartreating.ru/t/315561)Тума (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/280104)Pons (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/291841)Ñ�туд (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/300046)Bril (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/137402)Hero (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/138029)Aloe (http://getthebounce.ru/t/136925)
Ð*удо (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/284145)Ð*рне (http://habituate.ru/t/301176)Pant (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/69016)пове (http://hackworker.ru/t/298382)роди (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/497275)Clau (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/296373)Laca (http://hailsquall.ru/t/102672)Phil (http://hairysphere.ru/t/96880)Ð*йдл (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/293391)Alan (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/490016)худо (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/278544)Моха (http://haltstate.ru/t/284471)Федо (http://handcoding.ru/t/284060)Rich (http://handportedhead.ru/t/316890)Lazo (http://handradar.ru/t/280836)
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Зори (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/293609)(190 (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/247258)Kenn (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/289406)Марк (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/242573)Дуби (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/281716)VIII (http://jobstress.ru/t/285632)Jero (http://jogformation.ru/t/293979)Яро� (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/300860)Envi (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/537598)Tomb (http://journallubricator.ru/t/140284)�ерт (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/140459)изда (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/248155)веле (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/30333)Barb (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/254055)Вино (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/29177)
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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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