quest for food-scenario

[wareagle69]

so lets say it happens, what ever it may be, but now there are no vehicles and for the next year or so the government syas its not going to be much better, projected time to normal life is two years.
so my question is, even if you are a bug in type of person, such as myself two years is a long time, how would you feed yourself, but more importantly where (say it again) where would you look for food, get it? where? how far off the beaten road whould you go?
if you came to a fork in the road one heading to a small town of 5,000 5 miles down a or a road headed to a couple of camps 15 miles down the road (according to the map)
or maybe would you try the small side roads or would you head deep into the bush? in hope of what?
just trying to get a handel on where you would look for food, remember this is a two year scenario there is light at the end of the tunnel btu who has 2 yrs of food stored, so what would you do and where would you look.
thanks for participating in this thought experiment
WE

[gryffynklm]

For me the hardest to find will be animal protein. Around me, many households have a hunter. This has been brought up before in other discussions. After a while over hunting and folks protecting their hunting grounds will make hunting difficult. Unless you know some body. Good hunting for me is a mile away but can in itself be dangerous. Fishing is 200 yards away but can quickly become over fished. There again just like hunting folks living at the river will likely try to protect their resource. I will do all I can as long as I can. My diet will likely lean toward vegetarian.

This year I'm sharing produce from the garden. So far this season, my garden is doing great with zucchini, yellow squash, Bush Beens, Snap Peas, Peppers and similar are doing well, Still waiting on tomatoes. I have three tomato spots in my yard, I'm trying to find the best spot (lots of shade trees). I will trade my produce for some tomatoes, spinach, broccoli, cabbage, corn and a few other things.

There are three gardens now focusing on non hybrid crops so we can harvest seeds and keep things going. The subject of survival has only lightly come up in discussion, its been more an organic produce sort of thing. There are a few there in the neighborhood that want to participate next year. So fine.... we have a garden in a survival situation like WE describes. Just like above, We will want to defend and protect our resource. Its never ending, No matter how much we prepare if others know what you have, someone will want in and possibly by force.

I enjoy studying wild edibles and have identified some of what is growing locally, I need to work more on this. I couldn't estimate what quantities I would be able to harvest in a situation seasonally. Not exactly something to count on.

I'm definitely not were I want to be on this subject but thought I would post what I have been doing and my thoughts.

As far as food stores go I'm doing well testing out what I have. A little rotating of stock and a little cash short. I Will be able to restock by Sept. At least I got a good look at what I need to change on what I buy and find recipes to use the things I avoided. Need to stock more rice, and less creamed corn. I also discovered how much bread and grains I missed. I'm not prepared for making bread or have a grain or flour storage. I used to think that it wasn't such a big deal not preparing for this food group, well I have changed my mind, I miss the carbs. This was a good exercise.

[wareagle69]

the reason i ask this question - of where would you look- is because last tuesday the pager goes off at work, wildfire, ah a reason to leave was working on a rotary joint on the wet end of the paper machine, only about 120 with humidity, and the mill has an agreement to let firefighter go, anywho, i respond to this fire down a back road and turn down this small trail that leads to some rather large feilds just packed full of wild edibles, like hundreds of acres of feilds surrounded by forest, would never have known it was there, just driving down the road on would assume that it was just lots of bush back there.
second reason is at the mill we have a cafateria and also several lunch rooms as it is a large mill, in all these lunch rooms are full kitchens and lots of food stored in these kitchens, would never have thought to look for food there.
also another reason i ask is i wonder how far off the beaten path someone might go to look for food, like i leave a bit of food at the house but then have several caches, would you lloot the house then move onto other homes, orwander in the bush, i think the probability of findiong food in the bush is remote compared to small towns so i stash food in remote areas in buried freezers.
just trying to get a handel on where some might look for food

[Rick]

I think a lot depends on when the event occurs. At the start of winter puts a lot of folks at high risk just because wild edibles are more scarce and the cold. In any case, I would imagine that if you survived six months then things would become a little easier because most will have passed on by then. I'll give them two months of resources in house but once all the food is gone then folks will begin to starve off. The Irish Famines would be a good example of folks that knew and understand wild edibles still perishing for lack of food.

So year two, assuming you survive, should become a bit easier with less folks competing for resources. If you have seed then your garden will be like a cornucopia to help sustain you. Far less people trying to steal your bounty.

It would be a difficult scenario. As to where I would look...

Lake offers fish, turtle and muscles. Farm fields will begin to revert so a lot of field edibles beginning in spring.

All frozen meats would have to be thawed and smoked or jerkied or salted to preserve.

Farm fields would also be a good source of seed for corn or milo, etc., even non-traditional field foods like tomatoes if you live near a corporate farm. Lot's of pine and roses in the area so Vitamin C will be good over the winter.

[wareagle69]

that is the problem.
most city folks with migrate to the rural areas thinking the farms will feed them. lets look at a few problems with that.
first off, most domestic crops have to be planted, sure some will revert to the wild ,but, as with wild edibles they will only have a short season for harvest, just look at rwc's post to confirm that, with haveing to harvest allot in such a short time, how do you transport it all and secure it.only by becoming a memebr of said community will that happen.
2nd, i think most farm animals will be killed off in the first year, it takes allot to feed them especially thru a winter now sure some farms may be able to feed the first yr but how to harvest after that enough hay to sustain them.
lakes are a great source of food, but how many here practice shore fishing, i do and i suck at it, easier to fish with a mask and a net, currently against the law, but i still try it and release
there is also the issue of food fatigue

[Rick]

I didn't mean harvesting seed from plants. There are all kinds of seeds that will be laying on the ground from the current crop. Either because folks trampled the plants trying to get food or because harvesting (if it already happened) invariable drops seed. You can then gather that seed to plant in your own garden the next spring unless its hybrid. Even if it is you could use the seed to make flour.

The second year the farm fields will begin to revert to wild edibles because no planting was done (you said no vehicles) so those flat farm fields will gather in all of nature's seeds and begin to sprout. They should be an abundant source of things like thistle and nettle and dandelion.

I agree on the fishing. If you expect to survive that has to be done with some method that produces a lot with little effort. Weirs and nets.

[wareagle69]

so i gather from the banter here that you plan to make your way to the agricultural areas, or lakes. but most likley not into the bush in search of food.
so even if you made it to these meccas of food then what?
how would you harvest and prepare your food for consumption and preservation.
makes me think tho that even tho i have a few stashes in the wilds i need to add some ways of cooking like some small pots and utensils at each cashe just in case(no pun intended)

[gryffynklm]

In my area there are many locations along the train tracks that offer wild edibles. The tracks follow the river going through farm fields and occasional farm fields. There are copperheads and Timber rattlers to watch out for. The plants and animals in these areas are unknown as a food source by most of the folks that live here.

WE you bring up a good point. Like this field you mention the train tracks path takes me to a lot of resources that I have glanced at but have not made it part of my wild edibles study. A glance to recognize a few plants in passing is not the same as knowing what is out there. Time to go for a hike and do a survey.

[gryffynklm]

The preservation is a part I'm lacking right now. The Pickle recipe Nell posted and your mention of pots utensils and preservation has made me realize that that Although I'm putting up harvest for later consumption, I haven't stocked up on jars and extra lids. Lets not forget the spices, salts, vinegar and other ingredients necessary for the preservation process itself. With out the supplies i couldn't sustain canning. Thanks for the reminder.

I also want to incorporate solar dehydration into my preservation preps but haven't built it yet.

[Rick]

Personally, I'm already there. I live next to a lake and several decent sized rivers/creeks. The farm fields are all around me. The closest is about three blocks. I have no desire to head to the bush unless it's a blackberry bush.

[Winnie]

Personally, I'm already there. I live next to a lake and several decent sized rivers/creeks. The farm fields are all around me. The closest is about three blocks. I have no desire to head to the bush unless it's a blackberry bush.

I'm right there with you, Rick. My location is more or less identical, except I'm more isolated. Don't know whether that's a good or bad thing. I certainly don't intend leaving unless forced to do so.

[Pal334]

As I have stated in the past, our plan now is stay put as long as possible. I live on a dead end street near a large military complex. Most neighbors are retired military with a sprinkling of active duty military. THere is just about enough food stuffs stashed to make it the 2 years, and with us taking care of active duty neighbors there should be enough of an influx of goods from the base to make things last. Worst case, if a bug out is called for, by our "table topping" (see my post that subject) our plan and routes, we should be able to get out to a decent place which is already doing farming etc to get us by. There are of course "curve balls" that could come our way, but am comfortable with the basic plan (and constant improvements) for now. I personally would avoid "built up" areas in the event of a bug out if at all possible (although they are noted in "The Plan" if needed)

[Rick]

The thing that gets sticky, I think, is where to draw the line. You have to include your kids and grandkids and that certainly means DIL/SIL but what about his or her parents? Their brothers/sisters? Your parents, your aunt/uncle, neices and nephews? (those are listed in no particular order). You have food to last you and who you planned for to last X amount of time. Then you have others showing up because they are kin.

What about your pets. When food runs scarce will you eat them? I know some on here will, I sure would, but a lot of folks won't. What about dog and cat food?

[Winnie]

All good points, Rick. Thankfully I'm hard-nosed enough to turn away all but immediate family if i needed to. It's not that I don't want to help. But you have to draw a line. Supplies can only stretch so far and I would see a few family members come through it intact than all fail because there is insufficient stores.
It's not a decision I came to lightly, but I also happen to think people should take more resposibilty for themselves.
There are certain circumstances where less close family, friends or neighbours would be welcomed. If they had stores of their own or skills that could enhance the survival of the family.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

that is the problem.
most city folks with migrate to the rural areas thinking the farms will feed them. lets look at a few problems with that.
first off, most domestic crops have to be planted, sure some will revert to the wild ,but, as with wild edibles they will only have a short season for harvest, just look at rwc's post to confirm that, with haveing to harvest allot in such a short time, how do you transport it all and secure it.only by becoming a memebr of said community will that happen.
2nd, i think most farm animals will be killed off in the first year, it takes allot to feed them especially thru a winter now sure some farms may be able to feed the first yr but how to harvest after that enough hay to sustain them.
lakes are a great source of food, but how many here practice shore fishing, i do and i suck at it, easier to fish with a mask and a net, currently against the law, but i still try it and release
there is also the issue of food fatigue

In this statement I think you have accurately portrayed the problem and by doing so the solution as well. Most food harvesting is seasonal and a person MUST harvest as much as they can when it is time to do so. I have stated this several times in severals ways. You have to always stay on top of your food supply. If you harvest your food at the grocery store NOW would be the time to stock up. The sea has always provided me with easy food and I believe it will be the last resource to go since there are more places for creatures to escape man. There will be competition and all the easy fish will be taken from all the easy places but the best fisherman will still catch fish. I don't hold out much hope judging by the posts I've seen on fishing that many possess the needed skill but that encourages me knowing there will be more for me. If the ocean dies so does the planet.

[NightShade]

I live on a not-so-well-known body of water that is loaded with a variety of fish and very few fisherman k ow about this spot... Mostly due to the fact that very close by (within 2 mile radius) there are many much bigger and well known lakes...along with a ton of smaller ponds... Within a few hundred yards of my house there is 1 major river and 3 smaller rivers.. All with many fish.
I also live resonably close to the coast and have plenty of experience harvesting seafood from the ocean 3 seasons a year....
I have decent knowledge of wild edibles and also have a small garden... I have done extensive surveying of wild edibles in the area I live.. My house now is 5 miles from the house I grew up in.. I have intimate knowledge of the woods and fields locally.
I am an acomplished hunter of all large and small game available locally... In the anti-hunting suburbias in Massachusetts there is a huge overpopulation of many game animals.... Deer and squirrel pop into mind immediatley.
I have experience in raising livestock.. And have family close by who still do...
I have a stockpile of food but its not to big and I would imagine rather unimmpressive by WSF member standards.

I intend in using all the methods mixing them up due to productivity seasonally.

[rwc1969]

Food is the last thing I'd be worried about now and I would be hunting right in the backyards of all my "non-outdoorsy types" houses. They won't even know I'm there and the law will hopefully be busy with other things. There is so much state land around it ain't funny, lakes, rivers, ponds every seven or so miles. I will garden, hunt and gather. There is so much food just laying out in the woods rotting and getting ran over by cars and such it ain't funny. I'd probably just grow starchy foods like taters and carrots to make the most of the garden and supplement the things that are hard to find, are generally hard to procure, or taste bad from the wild.

The hard part would be keeping all the numpties outta my garden cuz they'd be starving big time. They wouldn't eat the foods I eat unless they saw it on a menu in a fine restaurant. Then they'd give their last dollar/ ounce of salt just for a chance to fit in with the cultural elite.

I've thought before that everyone would be doing the same and all the game would be gone, but it ain't so. They wouldn't have the motivation to get out there and hunt em down like I do. I could see a problem of people poaching my spots and selling their finds to the numpties after they've raped their own spots, but I'd have to put a stop to that as well. I'd put them on my dinner plate or sell them to the numpties as venison. They wouldn't know the difference. Heck they'd probably like the taste of human better than a good fat free strap of unspoiled goodness. Let the govt. work on getting things back in order for them I'll be busy living.

I'd like to find some info on the caloric content of the wild foods I eat to see just how much it would take. One deer a month?, 300 bluegills?, 5 galon bucket full o' nightcrawlers?, 50 lbs. of cattail shoots, daylilys, milkweed, nettle, the list goes on. I wonder how much it would really take. If taters and carrots were my only real source of carbs how many would I need for me, my family, neighbors, friends? One acre? ten?

[Rick]

Here it is for wild game:

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.hunting-game-nutrition-value.html

[rwc1969]

Interstingly enough whitetail deer and squirrel have the same caloric content, more than chicken if I read it right, which is surprising.

After reading thru everyone else's posts I think the biggest concern isn't where you'd get food, but how you'd keep others from getting to it before you, taking it from you, or protecting it from them. How do you divy it up among the tribe? and how do you let tribe members who aren't pulling their weight down easy? You sure can't keep em suckling off everyone else or everyone dies.

As far as family goes, neighbors and the like they're all welcome here, but they gotta pull their own weight. If they're old or feeble then we'll find a way to provide for them, but otherwise you either learn the ways, provide input, and go along with the plan or your fired. No unemployment, no welfare, just the horse you rode in on. Oopps! too late, we ate your horse yesterday, now GTFO or we'll eat you.

I know that might sound like I'm joking but it's the real deal.

Another thing that worries me is how to store all the food without electricity or the like. I'm not up on food storage and that's something else I need to work on in a bad way. I've heard of ways, but when you're life depends on it it's another story. What if the food rots, or you eat it and get sick? How do you know if it's safe to eat? Eat it? What if it looks and smells good, but is full of bacteria or the like?

Up the creek without a paddle, a real bad tummy ache, and a whole canoe full of food.

Besides that, if there was ever a govt. declared 2 year collapse there would be so much chaos it would take twenty years to get things back to normal. I doubt many here in the US would starve. We'd just end up killing each other off before we ever got real hungry.

[crashdive123]

I think the key would be to gather as much, as fast as you can and preserve it. For me, seafood is definitely going to top the list as far as proteins go. I don't possess the skills to survive on wild plantlife, and I don't believe that many of my neighbors do either. I think that we, as a neighborhood (at least those that stay) could effectively organize and turn our residential, landscaped and manicured yards into gardens. I'm talking about the entire yard. All of them. I know that my food preps, along with a few others would last for at least a year with sensible rationing. I am slowly increasing them. I know that some of the neighbors do not prep at all. The attrition rate would probably be rather high after a few months, and up to a year. After that, those that have stayed and worked together would probably do quite well.

[justin_baker]

Try harvesting stuff like cat tails and thistle. They are plentiful and nobody goes after them.

[Sourdough]

As far as family goes, neighbors and the like they're all welcome here, but they gotta pull their own weight. If they're old or feeble then we'll find a way to provide for them, but otherwise you either learn the ways, provide input, and go along with the plan or your fired. No unemployment, no welfare, just the horse you rode in on. Oopps! too late, we ate your horse yesterday, now GTFO or we'll eat you..



Hell, almost nobody really PULLS their own weight now, they are so out of shape, Lazy, and entitled to a certain quality of life, by virtue of being in America.

I think most people will just sit around and complain, whine, and basically do nothing. I really think most people will keep going back to the same store expecting/hoping it is open and full of food, just like a mouse when you move the cheese.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Hell, almost nobody really PULLS their own weight now, they are so out of shape, Lazy, and entitled to a certain quality of life, by virtue of being in America.

I think most people will just sit around and complain, whine, and basically do nothing. I really think most people will keep going back to the same store expecting/hoping it is open and full of food, just like a mouse when you move the cheese.

That's the only thing keeping civilization going now, pure momentum, nothing else. No one knows how to do anything else. The ones trying to fix things will only disrupt that momentum and it all will collapse.

Have a nice day

[SARKY]

In the urban areas. First there will be the food riots, which will cull part of the herd. Then will come the house raids where people will do home invasions to take food from others. Then the starvation time and during and after that the disease die off. Most city dwellers don't understand where meat actually comes from. Living in Oakland I can tell you that i've had more game trying to enter my home then i did when i lived in the coutry.
I've got almost a years worth of food stored. With that are also seeds for my garden plus I can hunt, trap, and fish.

[2dumb2kwit]

In the urban areas. First there will be the food riots, which will cull part of the herd. Then will come the house raids where people will do home invasions to take food from others. Then the starvation time and during and after that the disease die off. Most city dwellers don't understand where meat actually comes from. Living in Oakland I can tell you that i've had more game trying to enter my home then i did when i lived in the coutry.
I've got almost a years worth of food stored. With that are also seeds for my garden plus I can hunt, trap, and fish.

You bring up a point that I have thought about. If it gets really, really bad, then the urban areas will do just what you said. At that point, the city herd will be culled, and most of the "survivalist" will have headed out to the bush. As others have said, hunters and fisherman will be fighting for resources. In my mind, that leaves a fairly empty city, that is full of resources, that people there (the few that are left) won't recognise, or know what to do with. I'm thinking that after a period of time....the cities may be the place to go.

[Winnie]

Being realistic about things, I think the worst that would probably happen is food rationing similar to that during both wars in this country.
Now I'm perfectly capable of living on not a lot of food and making it fairly interesting. A lot of people are not and this would, I'm absolutely certain cause food riots regardless. The problems would emerge between the disaster/emergency or whatever hapening and the government getting into gear to take over distribution of supplies to the public.
I think I've mentioned before, preparedness just isn't in the British psyche anymore. I have kept my preps to myself because I know I would be ridiculed and viewed with great suspicion.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Being realistic about things, I think the worst that would probably happen is food rationing similar to that during both wars in this country.
Now I'm perfectly capable of living on not a lot of food and making it fairly interesting. A lot of people are not and this would, I'm absolutely certain cause food riots regardless. The problems would emerge between the disaster/emergency or whatever hapening and the government getting into gear to take over distribution of supplies to the public.
I think I've mentioned before, preparedness just isn't in the British psyche anymore. I have kept my preps to myself because I know I would be ridiculed and viewed with great suspicion.

This is exactly what I think will happen with the addition of more restrictive laws and registration of people. To get food you will have to acceopt this. This is how people will survive but they will be subjscts of a totalitarian world government. They will determine who lives and who dies, a decision I will be retaining for myself.

[gryffynklm]

Keeping our preparations quiet is very important. Like Sarky and others have said after food riots there will likely be home invasions to take your preparations. No matter how prepared I am, I or my wife will be in line with the others for food distribution if the government starts doing that. It wouldn't take long for your neighbors to notice they haven't seen you there. They will put two an two together and figure you have food and are a target.

[Winnie]

Keeping our preparations quiet is very important. Like Sarky and others have said after food riots there will likely be home invasions to take your preparations. No matter how prepared I am, I or my wife will be in line with the others for food distribution if the government starts doing that. It wouldn't take long for your neighbors to notice they haven't seen you there. They will put two an two together and figure you have food and are a target.

Yup, totally agree. It makes sense to get in line. The reason you mention and your own preps and stores will last longer if supplemented with govt rations. I see nothing wrong in that.

[rwc1969]

Hell, almost nobody really PULLS their own weight now, they are so out of shape, Lazy, and entitled to a certain quality of life, by virtue of being in America....

That's true, even myself. I could live off the land right now and don't really need to buy any food whatsoever. But, I'm lazy. It's much easier just going to the fridge and pulling out a nice prterhouse, all fat laden, put it on the electric stove, with some canola oil, whip up some instant taters and canned green beans and I'm set.

No mosquitos, deer flies, blood, guts, dragging a dead body thru the woods, canning, it, drying it, etc,etc.

The amercan/ western way of life has spread to all corners of the world now. people in other countries have grown depend on the western world for sustenance. Rather than practicing safe sex, and looking for ways to improve their situation they just keep breeding like rabbits and waiting for the next shipment of rice, etc.

Regardless of who's fit or deserving of life, people will be the biggest factor in whether or not we make it thru such a scenario. Whether or not we can manage ourselves as a group will be the determining factor.

Being able to find food and resources won't be the problem, but being able to work with or avoid the masses will be the real issue. It will be pure chaos, and unrelenting sociological hell on earth.:bat:

[Rick]

Holy crap! This thread is running pretty high on the doom meter. Why does everyone think there will be home invasions? Do you intend to go out and invade other people's homes? No? I doubt the overwhelming majority of folks will either. I'm sure there will be a few but that will probably be short lived when they meet up with the right folks. I saw all kinds of armed folks after Katrina with very bold signs that said "You loot we shoot". That's neighbors pulling together in a real life disaster...food and clean water shortage and all.

And why are we so out of shape that we aren't pulling our own weight? I see tons of young men and women protecting our front and back door. Tough as nails folks. Military, cops, firemen, first responders. Sure there are few pot bellies in the mix but by and large they seem pretty fit and pulling their weight to me.

I don't see any difference in folks today than they were in the 1940's when WWII broke out. Or the Great Dust Bowl or the Great Recession. Or any other time in history. You can find pictures of fat porkers during any time in our history and you can find plenty of pictures of hard workers right now.

Whatever happens, assuming some survive, I'm confident that we will band together and begin the effort of putting the pieces back together. We always have.

[Rick]

Gees - I just have to follow up on this. You need to think strongly on all the times in history in which food shortages, serious starvation food shortages, have occurred. There is very little documentation in the history books about mass riots or home invasions. And there have been hundreds of famines. Here's some reading for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

If you think about the scenario then a lack of rioting really makes a lot of sense. Starving people don't have the energy to riot. You might see some very early sacking of stores but that will be short lived. Then it will just be people slowly starving to death.

What you will see are opportunists price gouging on food. Here in the U.S. that very scenario occurred during the famine of 1816 when the price of oats rose a full 8 fold virtually shutting down the economy (horses needed oats).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

[rwc1969]

...and what do you think the folks who don't have money to buy the overpriced food, medicine and such will do? Starve?

There's a lot more folks without in the US than with and when push comes to shove they're not going to go off and quietly starve to death leaving the rest of us to our huge stores of food and supplies.

[rwc1969]

We had a three day power outage and there was looting and stuff going on all over. It wasn't publicized much, because the govt. and media knew that by letting people see the truth would only compound the problem further.

[Rick]

I agree there will be store looting and said as much. What won't happen is ongoing rampages. There is no historical precedence for it. And they will certainly go off and quietly starve to death. There is no option. Once your body starts to digest itself there is little energy for anything but basic survival; breathing, etc. That's why you see starving folks laying around. They have to.

Unless you have access to ongoing food sources you won't have the strength to rape, pillage and plunder. And if you have access to ongoing food sources you have little need to do any of it.

[SARKY]

Holy crap! This thread is running pretty high on the doom meter. Why does everyone think there will be home invasions? Do you intend to go out and invade other people's homes? No? I doubt the overwhelming majority of folks will either. I'm sure there will be a few but that will probably be short lived when they meet up with the right folks. I saw all kinds of armed folks after Katrina with very bold signs that said "You loot we shoot". That's neighbors pulling together in a real life disaster...food and clean water shortage and all.

And why are we so out of shape that we aren't pulling our own weight? I see tons of young men and women protecting our front and back door. Tough as nails folks. Military, cops, firemen, first responders. Sure there are few pot bellies in the mix but by and large they seem pretty fit and pulling their weight to me.

I don't see any difference in folks today than they were in the 1940's when WWII broke out. Or the Great Dust Bowl or the Great Recession. Or any other time in history. You can find pictures of fat porkers during any time in our history and you can find plenty of pictures of hard workers right now.

Whatever happens, assuming some survive, I'm confident that we will band together and begin the effort of putting the pieces back together. We always have.

Rick, there is a great deal of difference between people today and people of my grandparents generation!
1: People today are lazy. When the dust bowl etc. happened, people were self sufficient
2: people today can't (as in don't know how) to do many of the things people knew how to do 30, 40, 50 years ago.
3: people today are so self absorbed, "it's all about ME!" . What the hell happened to WE!
4: Good people will band together..... as will bad people.
5: it will be much easier for these lazy schmucks to steal from you then to fend for themselves.

[SARKY]

You bring up a point that I have thought about. If it gets really, really bad, then the urban areas will do just what you said. At that point, the city herd will be culled, and most of the "survivalist" will have headed out to the bush. As others have said, hunters and fisherman will be fighting for resources. In my mind, that leaves a fairly empty city, that is full of resources, that people there (the few that are left) won't recognise, or know what to do with. I'm thinking that after a period of time....the cities may be the place to go.

I can't agree with you and yet I can't totally disagree with you. The big problem I see in an urban enviroment is clean drinkable water. If it gets that bad there will be no one to run the municipal districts (ie. running water). So where will you find enough water to drink, bath with, cook with and water your urban garden? Hauling water is not an option as the time and caloric expenditure will be enormous.

[Rick]

I addressed that in another thread. I don't see the difference. You are looking at farmer's in the Dust Bowl and comparing them to some town kid sitting in front of a Wii console. There were plenty of Fatsos during the Dust Bowl era. Google Sig Klein's Fat Men's Shop. It's a men's store for fat guys in 1930's New York. Guys like Teddy Roosevelt, John Adams, Jr or Taft sure weren't fit as fiddles. I don't see the difference. People are people.

[Rick]

On the water issue....Look for the lowest faucet in any high rise. There will probably be some water left in the piping. All the water heaters will have some water in them. All the toilet tanks. Easy pickins for city water.

[SARKY]

I agree there will be store looting and said as much. What won't happen is ongoing rampages. There is no historical precedence for it. And they will certainly go off and quietly starve to death. There is no option. Once your body starts to digest itself there is little energy for anything but basic survival; breathing, etc. That's why you see starving folks laying around. They have to.

Unless you have access to ongoing food sources you won't have the strength to rape, pillage and plunder. And if you have access to ongoing food sources you have little need to do any of it.

There can't be an historical precedence for this as we have never had a population so ill suited to survival before nor have we ever had such population density before. All the ills will occur well before peoples bodies start consuming it's selves. People today are not used to discomfort, and react badly/poorly to it.

[Rick]

You might be right. I think survival is sort of instinctive and spans generations. I see the initial problems but not the long term conquests that so many believe will happen.

[SARKY]

Being realistic about things, I think the worst that would probably happen is food rationing similar to that during both wars in this country.
Now I'm perfectly capable of living on not a lot of food and making it fairly interesting. A lot of people are not and this would, I'm absolutely certain cause food riots regardless. The problems would emerge between the disaster/emergency or whatever hapening and the government getting into gear to take over distribution of supplies to the public.
I think I've mentioned before, preparedness just isn't in the British psyche anymore. I have kept my preps to myself because I know I would be ridiculed and viewed with great suspicion.

Miss Winnie, The first riot will more than likely take place in a ration line. And do you really trust the governmet to be truly impartial in doleing out food? As elitist as politicians are, do you believe that they wouldn't insure that they got priority as to food stuffs?

[SARKY]

I addressed that in another thread. I don't see the difference. You are looking at farmer's in the Dust Bowl and comparing them to some town kid sitting in front of a Wii console. There were plenty of Fatsos during the Dust Bowl era. Google Sig Klein's Fat Men's Shop. It's a men's store for fat guys in 1930's New York. Guys like Teddy Roosevelt, John Adams, Jr or Taft sure weren't fit as fiddles. I don't see the difference. People are people.

Fat people back then, for the most part were people of power and/or money. Today we have kids that obese who are in families recieving food stamps!

[SARKY]

You might be right. I think survival is sort of instinctive and spans generations. I see the initial problems but not the long term conquests that so many believe will happen.

It will be during that transition period that most of the casualties will occur. As long as the smart, industrious survive, we will have a chance.

[SARKY]

On the water issue....Look for the lowest faucet in any high rise. There will probably be some water left in the piping. All the water heaters will have some water in them. All the toilet tanks. Easy pickins for city water.

I don't agree, by the time everything settles down in an urban area, any water available will be far between. This means expending calories to collect it. Plus any others in the cities will be protecting their resources, puting you at risk.
If you haven't guessed by now, i've done a lot of thinking and research on this. For the fiction book i'm writing, which takes place in an urban enviroment.

[Swamprat1958]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is what will you do when the area you are hunting and foraging in becomes over hunted/foraged? Even Native Americans had to move periodically because game and other food resources became scarce.

Most people think about deer, rabbits,squirrels, etc. but overlook furbearers. Raccoon, opossums, beavers, etc. are generally as abundant if not more abundant than common species of wild game. A knowledge of furbearers and trapping would be very helpful, if not essential, in a survival or SHTF situation.

[Winnie]

Miss Winnie, The first riot will more than likely take place in a ration line. And do you really trust the governmet to be truly impartial in doleing out food? As elitist as politicians are, do you believe that they wouldn't insure that they got priority as to food stuffs?

Categorically no on both counts Sarky, hence my preps. However, Gryff raised a very valid point when he mentioned getting in line for rations. If you're not there, but seem to be doing well and all your neighbours are in the queue, they will eventually start to wonder and as Gryff stated, come to the conclusion you may have your own stores.
My position is slightly different because of my location, but I'm certainly not going to turn down any food items offered.

[rwc1969]

Swamprat, around here the deer will go quickly, but the other critters will take much longer to be eaten. That's why I will be defending the areas I hunt with extreme prejudice. And I won't even have to be there to defend it. The woods will not be a safe place for people if it ever comes to this.

It appears some underestimate the mentallity of people today and also underestimate the effectivenes of gang warfare or whatever you want to call it.

Hopefully those of you that think the world ain't goong to hell have brought your neighbors together to enact a plan of defense. If not you will be the first to go. It doesn't matter how many guns you have or bars on the windows. You can't compete against a large group however disorganized or inept they may or may not be.

[Batch]

I would probably wait and see the situation out. Also, who would move with me would depend on the time of year. Most would opt out during the summer. It is hot, humid and the bugs will cause many to bug out.

If it ever did get bad enough, I would make my way to a camp I know where other like minded people will go. If there isn't a co-operative community there I will move deeper into the back country.

I also think that learning ways to cook food that most people will not know is edible or will turn up their nose to is smart. Gar is great example of fish that is in over abundance in this area and that most anglers will not touch. However, folks that have eaten gar all swear it is great fish to eat.

[SARKY]

Miss Winnie, You are most correct in getting in the food line. Don't ever give up any pretense of bring helpless if it allows you to fly under the radar.

The gangs have a leg up when it come to organization of a group as well as a hierarchy. If you put a group together, get it right the first time as the gangs will look at you as a rival and take you down if they can.

[SARKY]

Swamprat, around here the deer will go quickly, but the other critters will take much longer to be eaten. That's why I will be defending the areas I hunt with extreme prejudice. And I won't even have to be there to defend it. The woods will not be a safe place for people if it ever comes to this.

It appears some underestimate the mentallity of people today and also underestimate the effectivenes of gang warfare or whatever you want to call it.

Hopefully those of you that think the world ain't goong to hell have brought your neighbors together to enact a plan of defense. If not you will be the first to go. It doesn't matter how many guns you have or bars on the windows. You can't compete against a large group however disorganized or inept they may or may not be.

large groups can be whittled down to size by various means (unconvential warfare)

[rwc1969]

For those of you that are bugging in types, how do you intend to cook your meals, etc. for 2 years if there is no energy provided to you by the powers that be?

Say you live in a high rise apartment complex for instance.

Do you have 2 years worth of propane stored? will it be safe? What will you do with all the feces that is generated by eating since you may not have working plumbing?

[Winnie]

For me RWC, I have an open fire and a woodburning range indoors. One of the benefits of living in an old cottage. The other advantage is the room would be heated too. I also am now the proud owner of a Kelly Kettle. I also have a gas stove, but that is more for emergencies than long term.
I'd do the outhouse thing with regard to waste.

Here's the range.

[nell67]

That is a BEAUTIFUL range Winnie! Any idea of how old it is?

[Rick]

I have a fireplace with a very large box and a large outdoor grill that I'd probably convert to wood for three season cooking then use the fireplace on bad days. I also have 25 gallons of gasoline stored (with stabilizer) that can be used in Coleman stoves along with five 20lb propane tanks and probably a dozen small Coleman tanks and map tanks.

For hygiene, an outdoor toilet WITH DOOR would be pretty easy to install.

[Winnie]

That is a BEAUTIFUL range Winnie! Any idea of how old it is?

It is pretty cute isn't it. I think it's about 1930's.
I need to do some more research on it and get it safety tested. I haven't had much luck finding any info on the make so far on the interweb. Not quite sure where to go from here. It's a Carlyle Hobark. There are so many knobs and dampers it's not just a case of light it and away we go!

[wareagle69]

well this hasn't really answered my question of "where" would you look for food.
what i see are many relying on community and government.
as far as looting and rioting-possible at first but as energy dies down so will the criminals.
Sure some may make it up here, but then i don't see them dragging kitchens behind them so how to prepare the corn in the feild, how bout that rabbit-most will turn up there noses at it.
as far as wild food, both vegatative and meat, well maybe close to civilization it may be picked over but thats it, the game will go deep into the bush, maybe allot here don't have any large amounts of bush around, some here do and the capabilty to go deep- i mean like 7 days of walking in deep, those will live
Reminds me of a story
when i was married to the first wife she had spoiled her boy on take out food, partly because she was a busy single mom, and partly cuz she was lazy. so about 18 months into our relationship we goes to her moms for dinner, meat and taters type of chow, and what does little eddie do? well he truns of his nose looks at his mom and says" i want some real food"
and that my feinds sums up the world today- they won't want to eat weeds and porkypines, even when starving. ok by me, means more for me

[wareagle69]

let me say this, so as not to be a hypocryte.
i can be just as lazy as the next guy, in my very busy life it is easier to pop a frozen something in the microwave or stop by the firechiefs fish and chip stand or eat at the cafateria at work, but what i find most important to do is stay in shape and have adequate stores put away, what helps also is that at this point i have a 3 yr jumpstart on my wild edibles quest and that i moved far enough north that i can hunt and trap along with the other locals who know the area, now do i think i am alone in that? heck no but i think that if the hordes of folks that want to come to the bush because we have lakes and farms, they will not be dragging the proper supplies to sustain themselves and will be of no threat in the bush for overharvesting.
also even if the big city folks come this far north looking for food its a long walk400km from toronto to here, sure some will make it. also as rick says most of us in this small community will band together to help each other, will that happen in the large metro? i'm not hopeful of that

[wareagle69]

one other point on wildedibles
i have been out on walks with my sar group and pointing out WE's and it always strikes me as funny when i point out something, lets use sweet fern as it just happened this weekend, so anyways one young lady takes some and tries to eat it and spits it out. First off she wasn't paying attn when i said it makes a palatable tea, but that is the problem is folks think these foods are like clery or apples or carrots, just eat as you go, sure some are but for the most part there is an art to preparing these dishes to make them taste good, thats where learning to cook is important not just to id and harvest, so i think most will try a dandelion or cat tail as they are easy to id and spit them out with disgust and walk away from life saving and sustaining food

[crashdive123]

For those of you that are bugging in types, how do you intend to cook your meals, etc. for 2 years if there is no energy provided to you by the powers that be?

Say you live in a high rise apartment complex for instance.

Do you have 2 years worth of propane stored? will it be safe? What will you do with all the feces that is generated by eating since you may not have working plumbing?

Yes, I store enough propane to run a camp stove for two years. I also plan on taking advantage of living in the Sunshine State (solar oven and cooker).
I do not live in a high rise. My house has a septic tank. Toilet is easily flushed with a bucked of rain water.

I seriously do not envision any SHTF scenarios where there will be a total collapse of everything, everywhere.........but nothing is impossible.

[wareagle69]

well i wonder how many who have ever been in a shtf scenario ever thought it would happen to them

[crashdive123]

well i wonder how many who have ever been in a shtf scenario ever thought it would happen to them

Very true. That's why we all prepare as best we can for what is most probable.

[wareagle69]

can't argue with that logic
what else ya got?

[Batch]

Has anybody lived through a real long term SHTF scenario. I've been through hurricanes. But, honestly a week or two with out power is far from a SHTF. Even folks who had everything taken from them had folks that would help.

I have always had good times and bad. Sometimes the good times are a result of what initially looked like a bad thing.

I was fighting a decent size gator that had just dug in and a thunder storm hit us hard. We are in a metal boat and I finally pushed the issue and the gator got away cause the hook straightened. We are riding back in this freezing rain with thunder in lightning reminding us very frequently that we are in a metal boat in the middle of gosh darned no where. LOL

I said golly gee this is BS! My buddy says, "You know what they do when its raining like this in Russia?"

I said, "No, what?"

He says, "They let it rain. That's all they can do."

When the storm your preparing for comes. You may or may not be prepared for what it brings. But, each of us will live our lives. The other option sucks.

[SARKY]

well i wonder how many who have ever been in a shtf scenario ever thought it would happen to them

As an instructor, the first thing I teach my students is "I wish it wasn't like this" . I then tell them, now that you've gotten that out of the way, let's get down to the business of survival.

[SARKY]

Iwould say that the important part of this scenario is the preperation. Check out what game is available, what wild edibles are around and where you can get water.
For me, I am butted up to the Oakland hills, so there are deer and other game. Many of the weeds that people are always wacking down are edible and I have enough land to grow a fairly large garden as do the neighbors on either side of me. Heck I was up at the range and the deer and turkeys were comming down on the range as we were shooting. As for water, I have storage barrels and a rain catchment system. If need be there is a college campus just up the street and they have a pool, large green house and other amenities for a nice survival retreat (except that they are right next to a freeway and still in an urban enviroment). Once the population is trimmed down the campus would make a good place to settle for about 100 or so people.

[Rick]

I think the urban environment offers a lot that most folks overlook. Once you get away from the obvious stuff like stores and warehouses there are an unbelievable number of places you can acquire both food and water. Just sit down and start making a list of all the places you can think of. Restaurants, cafeterias, vending machine companies, trucking companies, railroad yards, homes of those that bug out, hospitals, nursing homes, salvation army, food pantries, and on and on. Those are just some quick examples. While everyone is arm wrestling over the last Hershey bar at their neighborhood Safeway, you can be packing your car with cases of food from the semi left parked down the street. Improvise and adapt is the message.

[coldlightning]

lol, reminds me of my teenage semi-homeless days. the donut shop hangout always provided food, in the way of free donut holes. the staff said they weren't allowed to give us any food, but ,hint hint, when they threw it away in the dumpster at the end of the night, well.... so we opened the trash bags full of donuts and trash, and took the sealed, unopened, still fresh-but-unsellable-by-law, bags of donut holes. like i said, lol!

[kyratshooter]

They call it prepping don't they?

That means that one does not wait until the last minute for anything. That year of food (don't tell me you only have the BOB!) gives you one year to prepare for the second year. If you wait until you are out of food and start roaming around you blew it.

If you do not know how to dehydrate food without power now is the time to learn. If you do not know how to wrangle a heard of goats, trap rats or skin and cook a dog now is the time to learn. If you have not figured out how to cook in severe situations now is the time to learn.

What will they do in the cities? Check out some history. We have modern precident. The Battle of Linengrad, Stalingrad, Hurricane Katrina. In the 1880s Memphis was quarinteened for Yellow Fever, sorrounded by troops with orders to shoot anyone leaving. Everyone will be ordered to leave or ordered to stay.

When Huricane Ike hit Cincinnati the power was out for 5 days. Even though the temperature was mild people were on the verge of panic as the ice supplies ran out and the beer trucks could not deliver. They never thought about the water supply. The entire city was 12 hours away from being out of water when the pumping stations regained power. 1,000,000 have a 5 day water supply, then the riots start. Then the disease starts. Within 2 weeks 25% will be dead. Within 2 months 30-50%.

Did they learn? NO! This is the same bunch that whines and expects the city to supply them with firewood when the show storms knock out the power every year.

We are the preparers. No matter what anyone thinks of us and our ideas. We are simply doing now what everyone that went through the Great Depression and survived did. The reminants of that generation do not belittle us.

[Rick]

Now wait a minute. Don't anyone go off whacking dogs just to get in practice. And don't be herdin' anyone else's goats either. You gotta be careful, Rat. Some of these yoyo's already had their guns out. Didn't you 2D?

[KhonHd]

I live on the Ottawa river. Across the river is Quebec, where there are no homes for... well util you go over the top and come back down at Russia. Lots of bush and Algonquin park to the south.

While there would be a lot of people hunting the land, I don't think there would be a lot willing to go the distance and hunt for a couple days. There are a lot of road hunters these days that are too lazy to get off their ATV. Overweight out of shape hunters with no ATV equals less competition. Also, I don't think a lot would hunt across the river. If they did, there is lots of land.

I'm not a Davy Crockett but I do hunt (walking, not on an ATV), fish and look for wild eatables. If push came to shove I wouldn't think twice of eating bugs and worms to keep me going while I hunted (but I do prefer apples and granola bars as a snack).

As far as the food lines and been seen out. I am 6" 192 lbs which is an ok weight but I would intensionally drop 10-15 lbs so I looked thiner in order not to raise suspicion about my food reserves and harvested food.

Probably wouldn't look good if I was putting on weight... while everyone was loosing.

Having said all this I really need to get my reserves built up more... a lot more

[Rick]

The flip side of that is if you look healthy folks might be afraid to tackle you since they are on the puny side.

[kyratshooter]

I did not intend anyone to start boiling water to poach the neighbors poodle. I am simply a historian that has studied many things other people have little interest in. I also remember things others seem to have forgotten.

Due to the records kept by physicians during the Warsaw Rising during WW2 and the receint medical work done combating and treating anorexia, we have a great store of information about just how long one can stay alive on minimal caloric intake.

More people will be killed doing stupid things to get food than will die from actual starvation. That includes wasting more energy to obtain the food than the food provides.

Think about it from a "weight loss program" attitude. How hard is it to lose weight on purpose? How long would it take us to reach "ideal weight"? If I had to drop down to 1000 calories a day it would take me 6 months to "lose down to what I never should have been up to", as long as I was sitting around doing nothing.

This is one positive aspect of bugging in. If you have a "months worth" of food at 3,000 calories a day, and strech it out to three months at 1,000 you will probably not be more than 10 pounds underweight if you started at normal. If you are running around like a wild man carrying a 50 pound BOB and trying to scrounge food you will be dead from starvation in a month. Or probably killed by some farmer protecting his chickenhouse. SHTF you are stealing food and food means life. Protecting the food is protecting your life.

[Rick]

Anyone seen my dog?

[Sourdough]

The flip side of that is if you look healthy folks might be afraid to tackle you since they are on the puny side.



I Figure to eat as well as possible, and if I get any Bull'snot, I'll say, "I am sorry you don't know how to subsist, what you got to trade, maybe I could teach you".

[crashdive123]

I Figure to eat as well as possible, and if I get any Bull'snot, I'll say, "I am sorry you don't know how to subsist, what you got to trade, maybe I could teach you".

Just leave a few skeletal remains strewn aroung the property - it'll do two things.

1) People won't question why you are putting on weight.
2) People won't bother you.

[randyt]

I curious have anybody seeded or developed wild foods?
the reason I ask is within a couple miles of me there are a few backwaters and I have thought about seeding some wild rice. not sure how this would work out but if I could get it going it would be a good source of food. I should drag a canoe back to some of those places and may find out there is wild rice there after all.

[LowKey]

You keep coming back to cities being full of food, restaurants, schools, business cafeterias...

Assuming you can get past the roaming gangs, most of that stuff will be spoiled by the time you would be able to get to it. It's a really sad fact that a lot of restaurants re-heat prepared food. Most of the chain restaurants and most of the schools re-heat packaged pre-prepared food that comes in from a supplier. The power goes, all that becomes so much garbage. Gone are the days where things are made from scratch, except maybe the high-end restaurants.

I once worked in a 24 hour grocery store as an overnight baker while in college. There was a threat of a bad snowstorm and I had one gentleman come in behind the counter and demand I sell him eggs from the bakeshop fridge. All of the eggs were gone out on the shelves and he wanted those bakeshop eggs and he knew they were in there. Goddam glad security was on the ball and took him away. But there are no eggs. All that bakeshop stuff is either frozen dough or par-baked and frozen. All we did was proof it and bake it, or thaw it and finish it. No scratch ingredients.

I cannot even begin to fathom why New Englanders go out and buy Milk, Eggs, and Bread in preparation for a snowstorm. What do they do, make French toast?

Anyway, as far as preps, you aren't likely to run out of food in 2 years. But if the government says 2 years they mean at least 4. Plan beyond what they are telling you.

Grym brings up a point I had missed. I do a lot of canning. I have a backstash of lids and have been trying to figure out how to afford some of those European canning jars that have the old-style reusable rubber gaskets. @#$@-ing expensive! But, unless I learn how to make vinegar and/or have a huge sugar source, I darn well better invest in a pressure canner and figure out an outdoor kitchen that'll burn hot for the amount of time you need for pressure-canning. You can't boiling-water-bath-can non-acidic stuff like meats and most vegetables. I do have a book on making vinegar. Haven't tried it yet. And Honey works for sugar, if you can get it.

It all depends on where you live whether folks are going to band together and help each other, or eat you for dinner. When we were without power here for 12 days during an ice storm (the authorities kept telling us it would be 4 or 5 days, then always 'maybe tomorrow' for 12 days), there were reports up and down the valley that generators were being stolen. The thieves would listen for them then wait for the people to go to work (?!) or leave to get supplies and just walk off with them. People were stealing gas, as no stations had power to run the pumps and no backup generators (!?!). People were stealing firewood... And this is rural. I have no doubt that people would come with guns looking to steal food if it came to down to it.

I have a lake for fish. It would be fished out quickly if people stayed. There are several wildlife preserves around but there are also a lot more people with guns out here than in the nanny-state cities. And more apt to protect their hunting grounds with them.
Squirrels. Chipmunks. Rabbits. Even the pretty birds at the birdfeeder are all fair game. Wild edibles, a little more difficult. The patches I've developed of wild edibles in the yard aren't nearly big enough yet to sustain any length of time. Most of where I live is overgrown hardwood forest. Not a lot of understory. Lots of acorns. Every other year. Best bet is walking the power lines for berries and such and avoid the roads.
I'd go down swinging, that's for sure.

[welderguy]

I think the urban environment offers a lot that most folks overlook. Once you get away from the obvious stuff like stores and warehouses there are an unbelievable number of places you can acquire both food and water. Just sit down and start making a list of all the places you can think of. Restaurants, cafeterias, vending machine companies, trucking companies, railroad yards, homes of those that bug out, hospitals, nursing homes, salvation army, food pantries, and on and on. Those are just some quick examples. While everyone is arm wrestling over the last Hershey bar at their neighborhood Safeway, you can be packing your car with cases of food from the semi left parked down the street. Improvise and adapt is the message.

maybe I miss read this , but wouldnt this be concidered looting?

[welderguy]

[QUOTE=kyratshooter;234804]I did not intend anyone to start boiling water to poach the neighbors poodle. [QUOTE]

My neighbors yapping little retarded bark at dirt crossedeyed crap on my porch steps chihuahua is the first to go if I run out of food, as a matter of fact it may be first to go in the stew pot so I dont run out of food.

[Rick]

Actually, it wasn't ya'll. It was me. I guess I was really off base with that post. I think everyone should just head for the bush if the SHTF. That would be the best thing all around. Everyone needs to evacuate their location and head for the woods. Now what did I do with that list?

LowKey - Don't blame the "authorities" on not getting the time lines correct for restoration. They are getting their information second hand. I've worked a lot of storm damage and it can change in an instant. You might think you're going to have a section up and flying by the end of the day and that's what you relay to the city or county. Then you turn a corner and it's a complete jungle of downed trees worse than anything you've been working. That changes the whole picture. Or the hospital goes down or the fire department and you get pulled off to go put them back on. That changes the time lines, too.

Welderguy - My assumption is TS has truly HTF and folks are starving and/or have died. At the point where my survival is the only consideration. Well, that and Mad Max and Kevin Kostner (that gilled freak of nature). He's always winning bets on how long he can hold his breath underwater.

[rwc1969]

Does anyone here using primitive methods dry food, meats specifically, on a regular basis enough to know if it really is safe?

[welderguy]

Welderguy - My assumption is TS has truly HTF and folks are starving and/or have died. At the point where my survival is the only consideration. Well, that and Mad Max and Kevin Kostner (that gilled freak of nature). He's always winning bets on how long he can hold his breath underwater.


Got ya , and I do agree at that point all's fair.

[Rick]

I had this guy in my mind that went quite a while without food but did consume water. I finally figured out who he was. Bobby Sands. He went on a hunger protest in an Irish prison and lasted 66 days. KYRAT is correct about caloric intake.

[wareagle69]

I curious have anybody seeded or developed wild foods?
the reason I ask is within a couple miles of me there are a few backwaters and I have thought about seeding some wild rice. not sure how this would work out but if I could get it going it would be a good source of food. I should drag a canoe back to some of those places and may find out there is wild rice there after all.

you bet. i touched on this earleir this year. as i grow along my journey i have realized a few things, one-its easier to let it go wild. i pretty much have quite mowing my lawn, and i have transplanted many many wild edibles to have to crazy and spread at will, also collect seeds so if i have to bug out i can grow my own wild garden, which takes allot less tending to than a domestic garden.
now when i say i quit mowing my lawn, you must understand i live out in a very rural area and my lawn is growing over with weeds more than grass, so as i look out the window i see tons of clover, you can do allot with just clover alone

[Rick]

I know dilligaf2u2 had posted on that quite a while back. He had some bottom land where he planted potatoes and some other typical garden veggies.

[LowKey]

Rick, you're right, it wasn't the authorities. The police department was just as in the dark (ha!) as the rest of us. The utility company, Unitil, was completely and utterly incompetent, overwhelmed, didn't have a rehearsed emergency situation plan in place and their field guys totally underestimated the damage. The Governor had to step in to keep the out-of-state crews here to do the work after they had finished their contracted agreements with all the other towns. Unitil didn't have a work-trade contract agreement. That's why we were out so long. It was actually National Grid and Verizon that did all the work putting the crappy outdated system back together. We lost a lot of transformers and in some places whole blocks of poles and wires were just bulldozed out of the way. Some of those poor guys didn't get home for Christmas and they were working in 0 degree weather by that time. When they got to our street I bought them 2 Box O' Joe's and a pile of donuts. Some people in town only complained and hated them all, especially if they saw one guy asleep in the truck (it looked to me like they were rotating crews of 3 or 4 guys so the trucks were out on long stints.) Some people just don't get it.

The Attorney General actually suggested the utility be fined for not having an emergency plan and not following through with the mandatory are-you-ok calls and progress updates they are supposed to have by state law. It was only a suggestion though.

The top man in the field for Unitil got a $300k bonus for his Storm Duty work. But it was National Grid that did it all from a command trailer they brought in. The utility has yet to come back and trim out the trees along the wireways. It's been 2 years. If they don't do it, the next bad storm is going to bring it all down again.

[kyratshooter]

Does anyone here using primitive methods dry food, meats specifically, on a regular basis enough to know if it really is safe?

I do it for demonstrations at historic sites all the time. It is the simplist process imaginable. The pioneers did it, the Indians did it, the Carribean Islanders did it and so did the Europeans.

I can do directions as a seperate post if you would like.

You can dry any meat from the Bovine critters, poltry and fish. All it takes is bright hot sunlight or a good smokey fire. One can also dry almost any fruit or vegatable.

It takes all day, but is worth the effort.

People used to preserve eggs, pickle meat and had all kinds of tricks for making food last longer than we do since refregeration became popular. Many of the "living history farms" specilize in reproducing these activities.

How did you guys think they preserved food up till the canning process was invented?

[Winnie]

Yes please! All methods of preserving are useful and good knowledge to have! Can you put it in Cooking, food Storage and Preserving, and give it it's own thread??

[Aurelius95]

I do it for demonstrations at historic sites all the time. It is the simplist process imaginable. The pioneers did it, the Indians did it, the Carribean Islanders did it and so did the Europeans.

I can do directions as a seperate post if you would like.



That would be a geratpost, KYRS.

[easyday]

Or probably killed by some farmer protecting his chickenhouse.

Uh, that will be me! :D


SHTF you are stealing food and food means life. Protecting the food is protecting your life.

Concur.

[easyday]

As for me, I'll not bug-out. I'll do better here where I'm in familiar terrain.

I feel fortunate to live where I do, but I can't say that it was by chance.
About 40 of my acres are woods teeming with wildlife, for now. About 1/2 mile down the road begins literally thousands of wilderness acres owned by various timber companies. Lots of deer, bear, turkey, squirrel, possum (last resort), armadillo (next to last resort), and coon (only good doused in BBQ sauce, IMO).

I have three ponds (two stocked, with one deep in the woods), and a year-round creek on one corner. I can hunt, fish, and have familiarized myself with local flora food sources. I've just begun researching snares for small game. It isn't always conducive to "privacy" to fire a weapon, not to mention that I would eventually run out of ammo.

I would eat my chickens early on. They're noisy, and would draw the zombies in my direction. I'd cry when I ate my goats :sob:, but better than someone else eating them. Someone mentioned eating a horse... I think my horse would prove more valuable alive for transportation and manual labor.
I can cook without power, but I do need to build a solar oven. Dang! Just haven't done that yet!

The people in my neck of the woods are all well-armed hunter types. Hillbillies are like that! :D Been roughin' it most of their lives, so they know how to get creative with stuff. My adult kids live in the city, but know that at the first rumor of something dire, they're packing up and heading here.

ARRGHHH! Sometimes I feel that I'll never be as prepared as I may need to be. I need to work on prioritizing better!

[Rick]

Sometimes I feel that I'll never be as prepared as I may need to be.

“It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!” - the Red Queen.

There is no end to being prepared. You'll find there is always "one more thing" you some how have forgotten.

[easyday]

There is no end to being prepared. You'll find there is always "one more thing" you some how have forgotten.

I know that you're right, Rick. I just hope that what I "forget" is a comfort item, not anything too essential to survival.

[klickitat]

Rabbits! 3 does and a buck can feed a family of 4 with no problems.

Here are a few ideas that will make it work for anyone.

#1 In eastern Europe, even today rabbits are raised in apartments. A small corner of the dwelling can be used. I have seen several setup where a plastic kiddy pool was placed under the cages to catch waste to be cleaned every day. The waste is then used to grow a small crop on the balcony.

#2 If you have a house in town you can raise them in hutches. No noise and as long as you keep the cages clean no smell. Very easy to hide.

#3 Cages can easily be transported to wherever one wants to go. In a remote area there are two ways to colony raise rabbits.

The first is to fence off a large section of ground. I like to use any old fence. It is not designed to keep the rabbits in but to allow places to hang snares for predators. In side the fenced area I like to make several piles of brush for the rabbits to hide in. Make sure they have water as well. A 1/2 acre for your core colony is plenty. As the colony grows it will leave the area. If you trap this is good for taking coyotes and bobcats or even fox in your area.

Second is to build a pen on wheels to move around. This is a 8x12 pen that has a wire roof and can be drug around when the rabbits need more feed.

Third is to just let the rabbits loose and bread naturally. I have done this in the past as well. You need to stay on top of the predator problem. I really like white rabbits because they are easy to see and hunt. This also works for if any reason you have to leave the colony, the predators will wipe them out in short order and not cause an ecology problem.

This last method is best done around your farm where you have a lot of control. The fence method was an offshoot of this method but allowed me to snare a lot of predators. open areas with lots of grass or weeds is the key to making these last two methods work.

One of the reason that rabbits are so attractive is not only can a small herd easily produce enough meat, but they can also be fed weeds that can be picked every day if you are using cages. Also if you provide the protection then they are very easily raised colony style. There are several sites that talk about raising rabbits with weeds and colony raising rabbits.

We raise rabbits right now and feed them commercial feed. My time is too valuable at this point to feed hand picked weeds. I would be raising them around the farm here in a colony as before but we are in the middle of a move so it was decided it best to keep them in cages until after the move.

One last thing, is to consider the trade value of fresh rabbit when everyone else is having a hard time finding meat.

[LowKey]

But do you let on that you have the meat? What would refuges have to offer you in trade? Are there other local neighbors you know that are doing the same thing as you or have you diversified and indeed have stuff to trade?

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

пе�н (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/2942)410 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/518)тое� (http://eyesvision.ru/tehnologiya)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com)Кова (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1465871)Янче (http://filmzones.ru/t/1389856)�адт (http://gadwall.ru/t/1640249)Копп (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1357582)Бубе (http://gageboard.ru/t/1312704)Кома (http://gagrule.ru/t/1226269)но�б (http://gallduct.ru/t/1651523)и�ку (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1663197)Satp (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1684459)Icur (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1703566)przy (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1713269)
и�то (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1559235)Prel (http://gascautery.ru/t/1764066)тек� (http://gashbucket.ru/t/1751744)Луиз (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1802375)-199 (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/1562370)Zone (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1859234)Лапт (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1708303)Char (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/1382503)�ади (http://geartreating.ru/t/1382963)Plat (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1439848)Майд (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1532872)Timo (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/1556843)Слей (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/1556550)�юрп (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/1599623)Кало (http://getthebounce.ru/t/1384832)
Воще (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1441517)Зыко (http://habituate.ru/t/1378305)Шату (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1377906)Сопр (http://hackworker.ru/t/1685813)Сиве (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1373727)Cliv (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1373382)Фрей (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1381874)Соде (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1385611)Заха (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1387756)пе�е (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1552398)Чума (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/1440718)Beat (http://haltstate.ru/t/1601492)и�ка (http://handcoding.ru/t/1643459)Enha (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1701952)Evil (http://handradar.ru/t/1715383)
BeOS (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1771344)Fran (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1567118)Хлоп (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/1577417)Joha (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/1262366)Char (http://hardasiron.ru/t/1296501)Кубб (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/1375819)физи (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1369206)ри�у (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/1374926)Anne (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1609188)Almo (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1548289)Circ (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1548331)Circ (http://headregulator.ru/t/1548357)Зазы (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1677218)Бело (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1389355)Золо (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1588094)
Сурд (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1352029)Ð*ери (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/1016671)Ð*утг (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/1259399)Пушк (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1712017)Трах (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/1346871)Бгаж (http://jobstress.ru/t/1485611)чита (http://jogformation.ru/t/1379394)Голь (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1473853)окру (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1376744)Комп (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1589421)Швей (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1377333)Волк (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1433411)Пеха (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1342795)ЯроÑ� (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1253429)Jose (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1345993)
Spli (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1182413)Моро (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/1249602)Мень (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1376392)Ð*еиз (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1438607)Бура (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/1351919)Gree (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/1256562)реце (http://keyserum.ru/t/1436476)Elec (http://kickplate.ru/t/1662937)Zone (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1783680)Gary (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1388631)Teen (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1703486)рабо (http://kinozones.ru/film/2942)Сидо (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1442674)КеÑ�Ñ� (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1440280)Apes (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1778678)
ра�� (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1564999)Волк (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1568486)Zone (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1549827)Zone (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1548627)Radi (http://laborracket.ru/t/1713064)Beat (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1964269)Zone (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1549767)Clar (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1373328)очер (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1439061)Take (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1662728)�ким (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1636810)Матв (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1352732)Стр� (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1230958)зада (http://laggingload.ru/t/1369734)Хвор (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1349417)
Plot (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1437555)и�ку (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1642417)Zone (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1783949)�тол (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1357386)Merc (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1256357)Бел� (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1240412)�зык (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1247800)Zone (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1711767)фено (http://landreform.ru/t/1377914)Loui (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1319818)Стаф (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1497100)клей (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161257)клей (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1162372)Pion (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/798)Санк (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590704)

[yellowcab]

проф (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1031232)Зуба (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/453686)Nodo (http://layabout.ru/shop/452791)Wilh (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/229074)Jerr (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/105890)Hain (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/465514)Firs (http://leaveword.ru/shop/465540)Pola (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/195346)3717 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/575025)Flip (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/196428)Vanb (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/268515)Кита (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/546261)9051 (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/470167)HEYN (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/160304)PROT (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/614035)
Latv (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/598556)у�ло (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2942)Ethn (http://mp3lists.ru/item/2942)Towe (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1041876)пазл (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/106206)ин�т (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461564)рабо (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1040861)авто (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/486927)Tran (http://navelseed.ru/shop/101398)Misu (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455146)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/176578)Brit (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/506832)Wind (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/615731)West (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/109325)Supe (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/16425)
Bosc (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98735)Inca (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570099)FD91 (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571220)Буто (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/148560)Ulri (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/201381)Bron (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/149221)Воро (http://onesticket.ru/shop/579478)Воль (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/581546)�екр (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/683771)Hoop (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/683128)Sofi (http://palmberry.ru/shop/578534)Вла� (http://papercoating.ru/shop/583251)Мо�к (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/688675)Браи (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1168010)Иллю (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1168032)
Попо (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1167077)Крыж (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1172069)ин�т (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1540205)Futu (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1420645)Herb (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/595437)изо- (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/597551)Саба (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1072011)газе (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1073410)Миро (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/322531)Infl (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/509813)Roll (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/518009)Пере (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/516863)Oleg (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/903601)Juli (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1078959)�тер (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/320576)
зрит (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/513590)Kath (http://rearchain.ru/shop/641595)Матв (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/557395)«Кук (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/914327)ребе (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1054251)Гавр (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1062937)Войч (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1680262)пере (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693447)Иван (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1760725)Look (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1217603)Глин (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1816726)орга (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1055224)Селе (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1323281)Lisa (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1856599)заве (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1466280)
музы (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1492899)�ики (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1464124)Pete (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1494352)Ирин (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1381616)Маха (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1407218)Со�н (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1486959)Brat (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/327595)Иллю (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/399997)Маль (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/401014)Патр (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1686381)Pion (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/798)Pion (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/798)Pion (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/798)адап (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/483174)Monk (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/490644)
пере (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/498609)ребе (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/483475)Stan (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/487948)Януш (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/499343)Форм (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1822000)Сотн (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1880698)Попо (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/731862)Хонд (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/366268)Тышк (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/401027)Кича (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/980587)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Тури (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/981245)ма�т (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/483581)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)инфо (http://cottagenet.ru)инфо (http://eyesvision.ru)инфо (http://eyesvisions.com)инфо (http://factoringfee.ru)инфо (http://filmzones.ru)инфо (http://gadwall.ru)инфо (http://gaffertape.ru)инфо (http://gageboard.ru)инфо (http://gagrule.ru)инфо (http://gallduct.ru)инфо (http://galvanometric.ru)инфо (http://gangforeman.ru)инфо (http://gangwayplatform.ru)инфо (http://garbagechute.ru)
инфо (http://gardeningleave.ru)инфо (http://gascautery.ru)инфо (http://gashbucket.ru)инфо (http://gasreturn.ru)инфо (http://gatedsweep.ru)инфо (http://gaugemodel.ru)инфо (http://gaussianfilter.ru)инфо (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)инфо (http://geartreating.ru)инфо (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)инфо (http://generalprovisions.ru)инфо (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)инфо (http://geriatricnurse.ru)инфо (http://getintoaflap.ru)инфо (http://getthebounce.ru)
инфо (http://habeascorpus.ru)инфо (http://habituate.ru)инфо (http://hackedbolt.ru)инфо (http://hackworker.ru)инфо (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)инфо (http://haemagglutinin.ru)инфо (http://hailsquall.ru)инфо (http://hairysphere.ru)инфо (http://halforderfringe.ru)инфо (http://halfsiblings.ru)инфо (http://hallofresidence.ru)инфо (http://haltstate.ru)инфо (http://handcoding.ru)инфо (http://handportedhead.ru)инфо (http://handradar.ru)
инфо (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)инфо (http://hangonpart.ru)инфо (http://haphazardwinding.ru)инфо (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)инфо (http://hardasiron.ru)инфо (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)инфо (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)инфо (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)инфо (http://hatchholddown.ru)инфо (http://haveafinetime.ru)инфо (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)инфо (http://headregulator.ru)инфо (http://heartofgold.ru)инфо (http://heatageingresistance.ru)инфо (http://heatinggas.ru)
инфо (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)инфо (http://jacketedwall.ru)инфо (http://japanesecedar.ru)инфо (http://jibtypecrane.ru)инфо (http://jobabandonment.ru)инфо (http://jobstress.ru)инфо (http://jogformation.ru)инфо (http://jointcapsule.ru)инфо (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)инфо (http://journallubricator.ru)инфо (http://juicecatcher.ru)инфо (http://junctionofchannels.ru)инфо (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)инфо (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)инфо (http://kaposidisease.ru)
инфо (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)инфо (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)инфо (http://kentishglory.ru)инфо (http://kerbweight.ru)инфо (http://kerrrotation.ru)инфо (http://keymanassurance.ru)инфо (http://keyserum.ru)инфо (http://kickplate.ru)инфо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)инфо (http://kilowattsecond.ru)инфо (http://kingweakfish.ru)инйо (http://kinozones.ru)инфо (http://kleinbottle.ru)инфо (http://kneejoint.ru)инфо (http://knifesethouse.ru)
инфо (http://knockonatom.ru)инфо (http://knowledgestate.ru)инфо (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)инфо (http://labeledgraph.ru)инфо (http://laborracket.ru)инфо (http://labourearnings.ru)инфо (http://labourleasing.ru)инфо (http://laburnumtree.ru)инфо (http://lacingcourse.ru)инфо (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)инфо (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)инфо (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)инфо (http://ladletreatediron.ru)инфо (http://laggingload.ru)инфо (http://laissezaller.ru)
инфо (http://lambdatransition.ru)инфо (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)инфо (http://lammasshoot.ru)инфо (http://lamphouse.ru)инфо (http://lancecorporal.ru)инфо (http://lancingdie.ru)инфо (http://landingdoor.ru)инфо (http://landmarksensor.ru)инфо (http://landreform.ru)инфо (http://landuseratio.ru)инфо (http://languagelaboratory.ru)инфо (http://largeheart.ru)инфо (http://lasercalibration.ru)инфо (http://laserlens.ru)инфо (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)
инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)
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