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BENESSE
06-27-2010, 05:51 PM
I learned something new today. Even though it was on another site (http://www.survivalblog.com/) I feel compelled to share it on the off chance that there are some members here who haven't come across it, or like me, just didn't know to what extent this is true.

The comment below from JWR (to a story posted) referenced the two videos. I found them enormously informative because A. I've never done anything wrong, B. I've never had to talk to cops, C. If I were innocent and had nothing to hide I wouldn't hesitate to answer any questions the cops asked. Well, apparently I'm totally wrong and I'm glad I didn't have to find that out the hard way.

JWR:
"Our natural tendency as law-abiding citizens is to want to explain and justify our actions. But unfortunately in modern First World countries we live in very litigious societies. I concur with the sound advice in this law professor's lecture: Don't Talk to Cops. (View Parts 1 and 2.) Be calm and polite, but just refer them to your attorney. Here in the U.S., conviction of a felony means automatic disenfranchisement (forfeiture of your right to vote), and forfeiture of your right to own firearms. Don't put yourself at risk!"

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&NR=1

Sourdough
06-27-2010, 06:17 PM
What did they teach you in your CCW class.............???

BENESSE
06-27-2010, 06:21 PM
What did they teach you in your CCW class.............???

I've never taken a CCW class, just a safety course and then had an instructor on the firing line right at the beginning.

Sourdough
06-27-2010, 06:37 PM
When you take the CCW class they tell you, Never say anything for 24 hours if you are involved in a shooting, even if 30 objective observers saw the whole thing, and you were clearly in the right, even if it was caught on film, say nothing, talk to a lawyer. They even tell the cops who are involved in a shooting the same thing, say nothing for 24 hours.

LowKey
06-27-2010, 06:58 PM
That was one of the first things the pistol instructor told us. Then he repeated it many times throughout the two classes and on the range.

Rick
06-27-2010, 07:00 PM
Don't have to take a CCW class in Indiana. Don't have to talk to anyone either. I think if I ever get involved in a shooting I'll mime it. By the time they figure out what I'm saying it will be at least 24 hours.

Pal334
06-27-2010, 07:15 PM
With no disrespect meant to you B.
This is the silliest bunch of whooey I have ever heard of. Common sense says that an attorney should be engaged in the event you have been involved some sort of serious event.
But that silly "Professor" is unfortunately misusing his position of trust as an educator to make an issue where one does not exist. WHy does he think an attorney is needed for every contact with an LEO?
I wonder what is in it for him to cause so much distrust.

Batch
06-27-2010, 07:40 PM
With no disrespect meant to you B.
This is the silliest bunch of whooey I have ever heard of. Common sense says that an attorney should be engaged in the event you have been involved some sort of serious event.
But that silly "Professor" is unfortunately misusing his position of trust as an educator to make an issue where one does not exist. WHy does he think an attorney is needed for every contact with an LEO?
I wonder what is in it for him to cause so much distrust.

Pal, did you watch all of that video?

kyratshooter
06-27-2010, 07:55 PM
Every intelligent police officer I have ever known always gave me the exact same advice.

"You have the right to remain silent, USE IT!"

You do not have to prove your innocence, Asking for legal counsel is not an admission of guilt, and anything you say at any time can/will be used against you.

Pal334
06-27-2010, 08:12 PM
Pal, did you watch all of that video?

Certainly did. That is why I commented as I did

BENESSE
06-27-2010, 08:29 PM
Pal, I got more from the videos than needing to have an attorney present at all times. It was an eye opening of sorts in pointing out how easy it is to incriminate yourself and that in fact, not saying anything at all is preferable to telling the truth.
I have always believed and was taught just the opposite.
But listening to the law professor and the cop changed my mind and made me go searching for answers even further.

Justin Case
06-27-2010, 09:06 PM
http://www.usconstitution.net/miranda.html

The Constitution reserves many rights for those suspected of crime. One of the fears of the Framers was that the government could act however it wished by simply saying an individual was a suspected criminal. Many of the rights in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, such as habeas corpus, the right to remain silent, and the right to an attorney, are designed to ensure that those accused of a crime are assured of those rights.

Police were able to take advantage of the fact that not everyone knows their rights by heart. In fact, it is likely that most citizens could name a few of their rights as accused criminals, but not all of them. The police's position was that if the accused, for example, spoke about a crime without knowing that they did not need to, that it was the person's fault for not invoking that right, even if they did not know, or did not remember, that they had that right.

This was the crux of the issue in Miranda v Arizona. In 1963, Ernesto Miranda was accused of kidnapping and raping an 18-year-old, mildly retarded woman. He was brought in for questioning, and confessed to the crime. He was not told that he did not have to speak or that he could have a lawyer present. At trial, Miranda's lawyer tried to get the confession thrown out, but the motion was denied. In 1966, the case came in front of the Supreme Court. The Court ruled that the statements made to the police could not be used as evidence, since Miranda had not been advised of his rights.

Since then, before any pertinent questioning of a suspect is done, the police have been required to recite the Miranda warning. The statement, reproduced below, exists in several forms, but all have the key elements: the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney. These are also often referred to as the "Miranda rights." When you have been read your rights, you are said to have been "Mirandized."

Note that one need not be Mirandized to be arrested. There is a difference between being arrested and being questioned. Also, basic questions, such as name, address, and Social Security number do not need to be covered by a Miranda warning. The police also need not Mirandize someone who is not a suspect in a crime.

As for Ernesto Miranda, his conviction was thrown out, though he did not become a free man. The police had other evidence that was independent of the confession, and when Miranda was tried a second time, he was convicted again. After release from prison, Miranda was killed in a barroom brawl in 1976.

The following is a minimal Miranda warning, as outlined in the Miranda v Arizona case.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you at government expense.

The following is a much more verbose Miranda warning, designed to cover all bases that a detainee might encounter while in police custody. A detainee may be asked to sign a statement acknowledging the following.

You have the right to remain silent and refuse to answer questions. Do you understand?
Anything you do say may be used against you in a court of law. Do you understand?
You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future. Do you understand?
If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. Do you understand?
If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. Do you understand?
Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present?
http://www.usconstitution.net/miranda.html
These are your rights guaranteed by the Constitution, USE Them :) Things can and will be taken out of context and used against you, IMO

Pal334
06-27-2010, 09:12 PM
Pal, I got more from the videos than needing to have an attorney present at all times. It was an eye opening of sorts in pointing out how easy it is to incriminate yourself and that in fact, not saying anything at all is preferable to telling the truth.
I have always believed and was taught just the opposite.
But listening to the law professor and the cop changed my mind and made me go searching for answers even further.

Now I more fully understand your point. Having been a Fed and retired ,my perspective was that he was being an alarmist. I was not looking at it like you were /are (not having been in the "system"). So it may have been more informative to the "average Joe" than I thought. But I still consider him to be a "blow heart" :)

BENESSE
06-27-2010, 09:37 PM
Now I more fully understand your point. Having been a Fed and retired ,my perspective was that he was being an alarmist. I was not looking at it like you were /are (not having been in the "system"). So it may have been more informative to the "average Joe" than I thought. But I still consider him to be a "blow heart" :)

But then how do you respond to what the cop said in part 2?
And what would you recommend one does instead?

This all goes against everything I believed so I'm curious, of course.

Ken
06-27-2010, 09:54 PM
Oh, I get it. I've posted that advice here a hundred times, but because ANOTHER lawyer gave that same advice somewhere else you think it's worth a thread, huh? :sneaky2:

When I taught law, one of my lectures was titled "The Policeman is Not Your Friend." My class size usually grew from around 60 to around 150 for that one lecture. Yeah, I had some police officers in my classes. Some agreed and some took offense.

Funny thing is, I've represented several police officers over the years. Most of them say, "I shoulda' kept my mouth shut when I was called into the station." :innocent:

Most people think that they can talk their way ouit of a situation. Police officers are worse. Lawyers are worst of all. When questioned by a police officer decline to answer ANY questions other than to give your name, address, and date of birth. Beyond that, SHUT UP!!!! The most innocent sounding questions can be the most dangerous.



http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/image.php?u=1459&dateline=1210133243&type=profile

Ken
06-27-2010, 10:02 PM
I've had some clients (including police officers) over the years who have contacted me because they were asked to submit to an "interview" with the authorities. I always urge them, in the strongest possible terms, to decline the interview and to KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT!!!! :sneaky2: In more than one instance, I have had clients sign acknowledgements attesting to the fact that I have advised them to remain silent and that they have chosen to not follow my advice.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showpost.php?p=228550&postcount=37

2dumb2kwit
06-27-2010, 10:10 PM
With no disrespect meant to you B.
This is the silliest bunch of whooey I have ever heard of. Common sense says that an attorney should be engaged in the event you have been involved some sort of serious event.
But that silly "Professor" is unfortunately misusing his position of trust as an educator to make an issue where one does not exist. WHy does he think an attorney is needed for every contact with an LEO?
I wonder what is in it for him to cause so much distrust.

You post this, yet you distrust the Arizone LEO's to enforce what is basically a copy of federal law?

BENESSE
06-27-2010, 10:46 PM
You post this, yet you distrust the Arizone LEO's to enforce what is basically a copy of federal law?

Well, I've come around on that one 2D, and I'm not too proud to admit it. I just needed time to read everything there is about it from all sides of credible sources...so...go Arizona!

This thing about "Don't talk to cops" is a new one for me. (as of today new)
It's just not how I was raised and (fortunately) I have no personal experience or know anyone who had a run in with the law to lead me to believe it to be true. But the sources are credible, and the examples given make sense.
And I do have an open mind even if Ken's on board with it. :sneaky2:

BENESSE
06-27-2010, 11:32 PM
Oh, I get it. I've posted that advice here a hundred times, but because ANOTHER lawyer gave that same advice somewhere else you think it's worth a thread, huh? :sneaky2:


I apologize counselor, just wasn't aware that you said the same thing. Glad you did though--makes me feel better. But now, here's a question:
Say I find myself in a situation where I would need a criminal lawyer. But I don't have a lawyer on stand-by because I never needed one before. What do I do, how do I choose one quick?
(Don't know if Jerry Spence would pick up the phone and I wouldn't be inclined to call 1-800-innocent)

Justin Case
06-27-2010, 11:42 PM
I seen a Big book once with all kinds of Names and phone numbers in it :innocent::)

Winnie
06-28-2010, 03:43 AM
I apologize counselor, just wasn't aware that you said the same thing. Glad you did though--makes me feel better. But now, here's a question:
Say I find myself in a situation where I would need a criminal lawyer. But I don't have a lawyer on stand-by because I never needed one before. What do I do, how do I choose one quick?
(Don't know if Jerry Spence would pick up the phone and I wouldn't be inclined to call 1-800-innocent)

Now this is something I would like an answer to as well. I'm in the same position as you Bee, the only time I needed a Solicitor was to prepare the papers for my divorce.

Pal334
06-28-2010, 04:22 AM
You post this, yet you distrust the Arizone LEO's to enforce what is basically a copy of federal law?

Perhaps you missed my point in that exchange. I question the legality of the state law. And then enforcing an illegal law

Pal334
06-28-2010, 04:25 AM
And my poin tin "B"s question is, If you are potentially in trouble or the target of an iquiry of course you need a lawyer, if it is casual conversation, no you don't . This is a very obvious and prudent course of action

Rick
06-28-2010, 07:28 AM
I think there are two points that need to be taken into consideration. 1). His audience. While we don't know for certain, there are hints within the presentation that he is talking to a class of legal students. Of course that would be his direction to them. Possibly to anyone but certainly to legal students many of whom will become defense attorneys.

2). His advice relates to a criminal investigation where you are a suspect, not "never talk to the cops". There is a huge difference between being a suspect in a case and a witness or victim of some crime. It may be intuitive in the post but I thought the distinction should be made.

BENESSE
06-28-2010, 07:34 AM
And my poin tin "B"s question is, If you are potentially in trouble or the target of an iquiry of course you need a lawyer, if it is casual conversation, no you don't . This is a very obvious and prudent course of action

I agree with that and always believed it.
The eye opener was that even in a casual conversation it is not prudent to say anything at all even if you're certain it's the truth. That's what I'm trying to wrap my mind around because it goes against my grain.

Ken
06-28-2010, 07:37 AM
Articles from yesterday's Boston Globe and Boston Herald. Just sayin'.


"Notorious Lowell Arson Case Cast in Doubt

The 1982 blaze was the deadliest in city history, and police within hours had an arrest and a confession. But a new look at the probe and trial finds reasons to wonder if justice was done."


http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/06/27/notorious_lowell_arson_case_cast_in_doubt/

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100627investigation_questions_82_lowell_fire_pro be/srvc=home&position=recent

BENESSE
06-28-2010, 07:40 AM
Rick, the lawyer was definitely talking to laws students but his advice included just regular mortals. Same with the cop in part 2. I am sure this doesn't include the scenario where say, you're an eyewitness to a traffic accident or a robbery...but I might be wrong. Ken?

BENESSE
06-28-2010, 07:44 AM
I seen a Big book once with all kinds of Names and phone numbers in it :innocent::)

No way would I pick a lawyer out of a phone book. (or a doctor, for that matter)

Ken
06-28-2010, 07:58 AM
ISay I find myself in a situation where I would need a criminal lawyer. But I don't have a lawyer on stand-by because I never needed one before. What do I do, how do I choose one quick?


Now this is something I would like an answer to as well. I'm in the same position as you Bee, the only time I needed a Solicitor was to prepare the papers for my divorce.

Here's the thing. You won't have access to a lawyer if you're in custody UNTIL you've been charged and taken to court, unless you've made some prior arrangement with an attorney or your family/friends obtained counsel for you.

Many of my clients carry my business card with a pre-printed message on the reverse side informing police that they have chosen to remain silent and want to contact me immediately. My phone number (which I won't post here) is impossible to forget so long as you know the area code.

When the police say, "If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed for you at no cost to you," they don't mean right then and there.

Almost without exception, a lawyer will be appointed (if the defendant qualifies due to financial circumstances) at time of arraignment.

Choosing a lawyer is like selecting any other professional. Ask around, do research, try to find out who other lawyers and the police contact when they are in trouble. I've actually had prospective clients attend every day of one of my lenghty (more than 1 week) trials before retaining me for their own case.

This isn't an exact science. And remember, a lawyer is only as good as the client allows him/her to be. If a client lies to his/her lawyer or doesn't follow the lawyer's advice, the lawyer has far less control over the outcome of a case.

Ken
06-28-2010, 08:03 AM
Rick, the lawyer was definitely talking to laws students but his advice included just regular mortals. Same with the cop in part 2. I am sure this doesn't include the scenario where say, you're an eyewitness to a traffic accident or a robbery...but I might be wrong. Ken?

Ahhhhh, eyewitness testimony. So very, very inaccurate. :innocent:

I remember a case where a police officer said to a client, "That's a nice car. Is it yours?"

As soon as the client said "yes" the troubles began. Seems a car fitting that description had been involved in a major incident the night before. And no, my client was NOT involved in the incident nor was his car. But as soon as he admitted the car inquired about was his, he became a suspect.

BENESSE
06-28-2010, 08:10 AM
Ahhhhh, eyewitness testimony. So very, very inaccurate. :innocent:

I remember a case where a police officer said to a client, "That's a nice car. Is it yours?"

As soon as the client said "yes" the troubles began. Seems a car fitting that description had been involved in a major incident the night before. And no, my client was NOT involved in the incident nor was his car. But as soon as he admitted the car inquired about was his, he became a suspect.

So what would you say?
Seems an innocent enough question...not answering at all (but just staring at the cop) would look weird.

Ken
06-28-2010, 08:19 AM
So what would you say?
Seems an innocent enough question...not answering at all (but just staring at the cop) would look weird.

Something non-responsive, like "red isn't my color." Then, I'd keep on walking. If the officer persists, you know you're a suspect and that it's time to clam up.

One thing I forgot to mention is the fact that the rules of evidence (and the Fifth Amendment) preclude evidence of the fact that a suspect refused to answer questions from being introduced at time of trial.

Now, class is in recess. I'll answer all of anyone's questions later, but I have to be in court at 9:00. Bye, bye.

BENESSE
06-28-2010, 08:32 AM
Hopefully, a little common sense goes a long way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8&feature=related

Trabitha
06-28-2010, 09:00 AM
Don't have the time to watch the entire thing yet...but what I DID get through implied that one should not speak to cops because LAWYERS will spin it on you. If that's true...when did the cops become the 'bad guys'? :online2long:

Justin Case
06-28-2010, 09:14 AM
when they were given arrest quotas .

Beans
06-28-2010, 10:10 AM
I spent 5 years as a "Street" LEO and 26 years as a State investigator. I am now retired.

What seems as casual conversation is a very good interrogation technique . What you do with the information is what separates the very good LEO from the just another LEO.

The information obtained can make a person a "person of interest" or just another "interviewee".
If you do it correctly the person you are "interviewing" doesn't have a clue what you are asking or the information he/she is offering up.

Watch the old TV show "Columbo" and really watch what he is doing when he is trying to obtain information

Justin Case
06-28-2010, 10:13 AM
"umm. just one more thing",, LOL, I loved that show !

2dumb2kwit
06-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Perhaps you missed my point in that exchange. I question the legality of the state law. And then enforcing an illegal law

Either way....you're still one of my heros!:tongue_smilie: LOL

Ken
06-28-2010, 05:29 PM
Either way....you're still one of my heros!:tongue_smilie: LOL

How about me? Am I one of your heros, 2dumb? :)

Justin Case
06-28-2010, 05:45 PM
So is Ken the wind beneath your wings 2dumb ? :innocent:

hoosierarcher
06-28-2010, 07:39 PM
Never say anything to a law enforcement official other than, "Hello." If they start asking you questions say, "I regret this but I can not and will not answer your questions without a lawyer working for me present." No matter what the circumstances. Including any serious traffic stop. Don't ask "Why have I been stopped?" Just say the above.
Even if you are a witness to a crime DO NOT talk to law enforcement without a lawyer working for you present. Most especially if they have a prosecuting attorney present make sure you say only the above.
Yes it will cost you money but better to pay it then the costs you might incur without legal representation. I didn't make the world this way; but these lessons were learned the hard way.

BENESSE
06-28-2010, 07:53 PM
Here's an excerpt from a letter I found compelling especially because it was written by a police officer:

"As a police officer I can give you the following advice:
1) Don't let me in your house unless I have a warrant. If I have a warrant, don't resist my entry.

2) Do not consent, in writing or verbally, to a search of your person, vehicle or residence. No matter what I promise, no matter what I threaten. If I had probable cause for a search, I'd be doing it. If I am asking for your consent, it's because I am on a fishing expedition or because I don't have probable cause yet.

3) Don't try to explain. If the police are there, something has gone wrong or something bad has happened. If something has gone wrong or something bad has happened, then you probably need a lawyer.

4) There are hundreds of petty laws I can arrest you for, If you aren't in handcuffs, don't give me a reason to put them on you. Once I arrest you, my ability to search you and your property generally increases.

5) If you are having problems with trespassers or something similar, document it. Call the police and record the time and result. Keep calling. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Contact your elected representatives (local/municipal/county etc). Find others who are having the same problem and attend community meetings. Request an appointment with the police commander or tour chief responsible for your area. Address your concerns in a professional, calm manner.

6) Even if the police are wrong and you are being victimized by them, do not make matters worse by resisting/fighting etc etc.

7) Video and audio recording devices are cheap, small and getting cheaper and smaller all the time. They come in handy.

8) The police are not your friend. The police are doing a job. The police want to go home at night. The police will do what benefits the police, not what benefits you.
(the biggest surprise to me!)

9) Know the law. Know your rights. Know your lawyer's phone number. Just remember, one thing police really, really dislike is being lectured by someone claiming to know their rights, claiming to know the law. More often than not, someone who is screaming "I know my rights!" is wrong. - Tom M.

The full write-up here: http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/06/seven_letters_re_you_versus_th.html

Ken
06-28-2010, 08:30 PM
Here's an excerpt from a letter I found compelling especially because it was written by a police officer:

8) The police are not your friend. (the biggest surprise to me!)


Why was that a surprise? That's the title of my lecture. :innocent:

BENESSE
06-28-2010, 08:51 PM
Why was that a surprise? That's the title of my lecture. :innocent:

Having always been a law-abiding/LE-respecting citizen with nothing to hide, that concept is hard to accept.
I get it, but I can't help being somewhat disenchanted about it. Sounds like something that happens only in third world countries.

2dumb2kwit
06-28-2010, 09:01 PM
Having always been a law-abiding/LE-respecting citizen with nothing to hide, that concept is hard to accept.
I get it, but I can't help being somewhat disenchanted about it. Sounds like something that happens only in third world countries.

There are a couple of things, to keep in mind. First, just because they have a badge, doesn't mean that they are "good". Cops are just like any other group of people......some are good and some are not. Second, you have to keep in mind, that most cops deal with the lowest forms of life, day in and day out. I'm afraid to say that a lot of them start to think that everyone is a piece of garbage.

I'm not saying these things, to disrespect LEO's....in fact, I feel sorry for most of them. It's just that I have known a lot of LEO's and have seen it many times. Even the good ones can become very jaded.

huntermj
06-28-2010, 09:18 PM
I used to have a link to a good read on police intergation, sorry cant find it now. But do a search on it and you find the intergation starts when the nice officer walks up to your window and ask's " do you know why i pulled you over?" Hes trying to get you to confess to what ever he can. Around here the next questions are " have you been drinking?, where are you coming from? and where are you going? There are several good reasons to ask these questions, from the persepective of the police. There gageing your leval of cooperation, watching your manerisims and possibly connecting you with an earlier crime in the area your coming from and if your real nervese you may just screw up and answer yes to the drinking question. Or maybe im just being parinoid.:innocent:

Justin Case
06-28-2010, 09:22 PM
I used to have a link to a good read on police intergation, sorry cant find it now. But do a search on it and you find the intergation starts when the nice officer walks up to your window and ask's " do you know why i pulled you over?" Hes trying to get you to confess to what ever he can. Around here the next questions are " have you been drinking?, where are you coming from? and where are you going? There are several good reasons to ask these questions, from the persepective of the police. There gageing your leval of cooperation, watching your manerisims and possibly connecting you with an earlier crime in the area your coming from and if your real nervese you may just screw up and answer yes to the drinking question. Or maybe im just being parinoid.:innocent:

No, I think you Nailed it ! Thats exactly what they are trained to do .

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yellowcab
09-23-2025, 07:31 PM
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yellowcab
12-06-2025, 01:21 AM
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yellowcab
12-06-2025, 01:22 AM
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yellowcab
03-06-2026, 02:42 AM
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yellowcab
03-06-2026, 02:43 AM
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yellowcab
05-16-2026, 01:53 PM
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yellowcab
05-16-2026, 01:54 PM
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