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Ken
06-19-2010, 09:31 AM
I just read this article. I'm furious. There are simply so many things wrong with this. If I say more, at this moment, I'll violate several rules of the Forum. Just read this........ :sneaky2:


U.S. Buys Russian Choppers for Afghan Military

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37793266/ns/politics-washington_post

BENESSE
06-19-2010, 09:39 AM
Be that as it may, I noticed you're getting too steamed up over stuff. Sit back, relax and have a drink.
Save yourself for bigger things for they are a commin'. :)

Justin Case
06-19-2010, 09:39 AM
'It works well'
U.S. and Afghan military officials who favor the Mi-17, which was designed for use in Afghanistan, acknowledge that it might seem odd for the Pentagon to invest in Russian military products. But they said that changing helicopter models would throw a wrench into the effort to train Afghan pilots, none of whom can fly U.S.-built choppers.

"If people come and fly in Afghanistan with the Mi-17, they will understand why that aircraft is so important to the future for Afghanistan," said Brig. Gen. Michael R. Boera, the U.S. Air Force general in charge of rebuilding the Afghan air corps. "We've got to get beyond the fact that it's Russian. . . . It works well in Afghanistan."

Looks like it might be cheaper than giving them US helicopters and training them . we are going to provide them whether we like it or not, so may as well be cheaper, also, Why would we want to give them all of our technology and train them to use it ?

(btw, how's the leg doing Ken ?)

Ken
06-19-2010, 09:50 AM
Be that as it may, I noticed you're getting too steamed up over stuff. Sit back, relax and have a drink.
Save yourself for bigger things for they are a commin'. :)

That's because I'm angry about the grossly incompetent decisions our government makes about once every hour. Our industries are suffering high unemployment, and we're buying foreign? Does anyone really wonder why we're going down the crapper?


Looks like it might be cheaper than giving them US helicopters and training them . we are going to provide them whether we like it or not, so may as well be cheaper, also, Why would we want to give them all of our technology and train them to use it ?

(btw, how's the leg doing Ken ?)

These are transport aircraft. We're not talking about our latest stealth technology here.

Leg's better. Got one helluva' hematoma and it still hurts, but the limp is mostly gone. Like I said, you have to let it know who the boss is and work it hard. Screw that "keep weight off of it" crap. Excuse me, but it's time for me to go chew on some rocks. :innocent:

Justin Case
06-19-2010, 09:55 AM
"helluva' hematoma" ? LOL,, That would make a good screen name :innocent:

BENESSE
06-19-2010, 09:55 AM
That's because I'm angry about the grossly incompetent decisions our government makes about once every hour. Our industries are suffering high unemployment, and we're buying foreign? Does anyone really wonder why we're going down the crapper?


I stopped wondering a while ago. Just take it for granted now. Keeps me from being bent out of shape permanently.

Rick
06-19-2010, 10:56 AM
Actually, counselor. It just might make really good sense. 1. They probably are cheaper to purchase than American counterparts. 2. The Afghans already had the Mi-17 in stock from a boondoggle purchase from some shady Afghan arms dealers. You'll need to go back about 6 or 7 months to find the reports on it but they bought up a bunch of used and abused mi-17s that had a face lift and at over inflated prices so they probably have spare parts galore. 3. Even though they are transport choppers things like night vision, radio, gps, etc are still on them and not something we probably want to give up to folks that are going to be our enemy in about 3...2...1....and 4, they don't have to re-train them to fly good whirlybirds.

Pal334
06-19-2010, 12:59 PM
I have two opinions on this (mybe more :)). I agree with Ken, the morons in charge of the chicken coop just are not thinking!
If you have to purchase former Soviet helos, bargain for them, or insist that the Former Soviet Union donate some!!!! They are crap anyways, hard to maintain, so pay less for them. Gives the Afghans a non threatening asset.
Second, we have tons of our surplus helos in Saudi Arbia, give those to them, almost a zero cost option . This option does not include our great grand children being saddled with paying for them.

If I can figure this out, wouldn't you hope that our elected officials could?

woodsman86
06-19-2010, 02:58 PM
I agree it is a bit over priced for Russian refurbished aircraft. Once we are no longer funding them, they will have to purchase replacement aircraft and parts from somewhere. Putting American built aircraft in the Afghan Air Corps would be like putting Russian built aircraft in our own. The parts are not supplied locally and would be grossly over priced. It just makes more sense to me for them to purchase something locally available. I actually rode in a Russian HIP owned by the Army at Fort Polk, was not a bad ride.

We had this problem in Iraq when we gave the Iraqi Army HMMWVs. They used them until they broke down and then had no parts to fix them. They were completely reliant on us for repairs and parts. So maybe it is a lesson learned from trying to push our equipment in the middle east.

tipacanoe
06-19-2010, 03:40 PM
I was thinking that they can get some of the spare parts from what's left laying around from when the Russian's tried to tame the place. Think about what they use for wepons? Now I would like us to build some frigates or Burke class destroyers for England or whom ever would like to buy them.

BENESSE
06-19-2010, 03:56 PM
The Afghanis don't need any of that $hit. They've defeated many an invader using lo-tech, stone age MO. When you're already on the bottom and you're holding your ground, why change?

woodsman86
06-19-2010, 04:38 PM
The Afghanis don't need any of that $hit. They've defeated many an invader using lo-tech, stone age MO. When you're already on the bottom and you're holding your ground, why change?


When you're trying to hold ground against your own it takes some innovation to beat them. Insurgency is the hardest war to fight because there are no clean cut lines between civilian and combatant.

BENESSE
06-19-2010, 04:46 PM
When you're trying to hold ground against your own it takes some innovation to beat them. Insurgency is the hardest war to fight because there are no clean cut lines between civilian and combatant.

You are so right...but there is something to be said about fighting in your own homeland for your homeland. I think that's why they've been so successful and why we've been so successful against the Brits early on. One can't underestimate that, I think.

Ole WV Coot
06-19-2010, 05:43 PM
When you're trying to hold ground against your own it takes some innovation to beat them. Insurgency is the hardest war to fight because there are no clean cut lines between civilian and combatant.

That little lesson was learned(I thought) in Vietnam, guess not. I do like Ron White's line "You can't fix stupid!"

Rick
06-19-2010, 06:34 PM
Okay, I did some digging on this and here's what I uncovered. Between 2007 and 2009 the U.S. military paid out $241 million for 22 refurbished Mi-17 choppers. That includes spare parts and "modifications". In 2009 they paid an additional $80 million for the same helo's and they still had not been delivered. The contract was awarded through a counter-narcotics contract that allowed the military to limit competition. They award the contract to a communications company called ARINC. They happen to be owned by the Carlyle Group. Here's where it all ties together. Are you ready?

The Carlyle Group is managed by a team of former US Government personnel including its president Frank Carlucci, former deputy director of the CIA before becoming Defense Secretary. His deputy is James Baker II, who was Secretary of State under George Bush senior. Several high profile former politicians are employed to represent the company overseas, among them John Major, former British Prime Minister, along with George Bush senior, one time CIA director before becoming US President.

My guess is there will never be a chopper sent to Afghanistan and the money is being diverted somewhere else. Any questions? (Iran-Contra anyone?)

woodsman86
06-19-2010, 07:09 PM
Very interesting Rick. Thank you for the research. At this depth I no longer have a comment.

Justin Case
06-19-2010, 07:13 PM
The Carlyle Group is managed by a team of former US Government personnel including its president Frank Carlucci, former deputy director of the CIA before becoming Defense Secretary. His deputy is James Baker II, who was Secretary of State under George Bush senior. Several high profile former politicians are employed to represent the company overseas, among them John Major, former British Prime Minister, along with George Bush senior, one time CIA director before becoming US President.

My guess is there will never be a chopper sent to Afghanistan and the money is being diverted somewhere else. Any questions? (Iran-Contra anyone?)

Well Now, Imagine That ,,,,, I am surprised Halaburton wasn't mixed in there somewhere too,

Thanks for the research Rick .

Rick
06-19-2010, 07:24 PM
There are a lot more politico members of Carlyle. Two former Thai Prime Ministers, a former President of the Philippines. Little Georgie Jr. Bush was a member but "quit" to run for governor of Texas. Randal Quales, U.S. Treasury, McLarty, White House Chief of Staff. and on and on and on. Pretty cozy little group.

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yellowcab
12-05-2025, 09:31 PM
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yellowcab
03-05-2026, 10:48 PM
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Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1192307)Miyo (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1193982)Jord (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1241132)Zone (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1185457)меня (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1185408)Zone (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1186848)R081 (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1189026)Haro (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1320223)ПЛ-0 (http://landreform.ru/t/1187293)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185640)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1191418)плас (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1160437)Nouv (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/589242)Noki (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/497)обра (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590125)

yellowcab
03-05-2026, 10:49 PM
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yellowcab
05-16-2026, 09:59 AM
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yellowcab
05-16-2026, 10:01 AM
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