NRA-ILA GRASSROOTS ALERT-What does it mean?

[BENESSE]

So being a new minted card carrying member of the NRA, I get occasional emails.
I read them all and think about the implications. Sometimes I'm just not sure, like in this case--but then maybe I'm missing something that more experienced and shrewd members can spot. Here's the communique, quoted with my comments :

Senate Hearing Promotes Anti-American Watchlist Bills

Since September 11, 2001, it's been clear that terrorists who hate America will exploit our weaknesses in order to destroy us. Got that!This week, Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.), Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.) and New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg exploited Americans' fear of terrorism to push their latest anti-gun proposal, and in doing so showed that they're willing to destroy other parts of the Constitution, to choke its Second Amendment. That ain't right!
On Tuesday, as chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee, Lieberman held a hearing to give Lautenberg and King the opportunity to promote their bills S.1317 and H.R.2159, to prohibit the possession of firearms by people on the FBI's "terrorist watchlist," Damn right! and Lautenberg's S. 2820, to maintain records of approved instant background check transactions for a minimum of 180 days. Great, what am I missing?The watchlist bills further propose that a person seeking relief in court from these new restrictions would be prevented from examining and challenging "evidence" against him, and that the judge deciding whether the person had been watchlisted for good reason be limited to summaries and redacted versions of such "evidence." So?!

I just don't get it. NRA finds these bills restrictive and wants me to vote against them. Based on this, I just can't in good conscience and don't understand their logic.
What am I missing here?

[2dumb2kwit]

Don't be fooled by the terminology. Lot's of people can make the "terrorist watch list" without being terrorist. Heck....you're a member of a "survivalist" forum. You may be on the list.

Ken would be the one to decipher the wording, but it sounds to me like, if they decide that you are a danger (even if you have done nothing wrong), then that the end of it. They aren't going to even let you challenge their decision.

It sounds to me like, if this bill is passed, they could decide who can, and can't own a gun, for reasons known only to them, and no-one can contest their decisions.

[Winnie]

Don't be fooled by the terminology. Lot's of people can make the "terrorist watch list" without being terrorist. Heck....you're a member of a "survivalist" forum. You may be on the list.

Ken would be the one to decipher the wording, but it sounds to me like, if they decide that you are a danger (even if you have done nothing wrong), then that the end of it. They aren't going to even let you challenge their decision.

It sounds to me like, if this bill is passed, they could decide who can, and can't own a gun, for reasons known only to them, and no-one can contest their decisions.

That last paragraph sounds familiar, I keep telling you, vote and fight to keep your right to bear arms! Look what's happened over here because folk didn't keep their eye on the ball.

[2dumb2kwit]

That last paragraph sounds familiar, I keep telling you, vote and fight to keep your right to bear arms! Look what's happened over here because folk didn't keep their eye on the ball.

You're 100% correct, Winnie.
The people pushing this bill, are known anti-gun people. They don't want any of us to have guns. They are trying to chip away at our rights, little by little.

This is a perfect example of how they do it. They play on people's emotions, by calling it anti-terrorist, and phrases like that, so that peopl think "yeah, we don't want bad people having guns", without understanding what the bills really do.

[2dumb2kwit]

I guess, this is the email that you're talking about. Did you read the whole thing?

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=5807&issue


Speaking against the proposed legislation during the hearing was Aaron Titus of the Liberty Coalition. "Senate Bill 1317 goes too far," he said. "The bill should be titled, 'The Gun Owners Are Probably All Terrorists Act,' because it strips citizens of their constitutional right to [keep and] bear arms without any meaningful due process. And Senate Bill 2820 should be called, 'The National Firearm Registry Act' because it creates a national firearms registry. . . . a massive database of names and detailed personal information of each law-abiding citizen who purchases a gun."



Later, Sen. Graham summed up the reason that should motivate every American -- regardless of personal feelings about individual gun ownership -- to oppose the Lautenberg and King bills. "I think you're going too far here," he said. "There's a huge difference between losing your gun rights based upon a felony charge that was proven by a court of law and appealed, and is a conviction on the books, and being on some list that is, at best, suspect."

[2dumb2kwit]

Here's an article about the watchlist. It has some interesting info.

Keep in mind, that if that bill is made into law, if you end up on the list, you loose your second amendment rights, and can't fight it.

http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/how-improve-terrorist-watchlists


The terrorist watch lists have been plagued by errors throughout their post-9/11 evolution. Mistakes in the lists have led to the embarrassing detainment of such prominent figures as the late Senator Ted Kennedy, and implicated countless innocent travelers like Kiernan O’Dwyer, a veteran American Airlines pilot stopped more than 80 times by U.S. customs agents


Late last year, the Washington Post reported shocking new FBI data indicating that the ever expanding watch list database has swelled to over one million entries, and continues to grow by one thousand individuals each day. These estimates come on the heels of a series of internal government audits in which the Government Accountability Office and Justice Department have found severe flaws in the FBI’s terror watch list nomination practices.

The latest DOJ Inspector General’s report concluded that approximately 35% of those sampled were left on the list based on outdated information or material unrelated to terrorism.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

It means everything you've ever been told is a LIE! When you choose the lesser of two evils you are still choosing evil. You would think feeding starving people in the world would be a good thing but aid is used to drive the small local farmers out of business (who can compete with free) and then they are dependent and slaves of the state. They don't care about your guns, health or CO2 emissions, it's all about control. Laws or money mean nothing, they are going for absolute control! The only power they have is what we give them and we continue to give it to them. It's to late to change anything and while people continue to dwell on the small issues used to befuddle our peanut brains their plans for global control moves forward. Complicate it all you want but that's it in a nutshell. We need to stay a step ahead and discussing hopeless solutions is two steps behind. Self reliance and God is the only hope we have to defeat the beast.

[Chris]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

It is about giving the executive branch the right to suspend constitution rights without judicial review. So long as you believe the executive branch will only work in your best interests you might be find with it, but in this you're trusting politicians. Do they deserve your trust? For how long? What if in 10 years they expand the terrorist list to include Tea Partiers? It is just a "watch list" afterall.

No one should have their constitutional rights taken away without due process. Even terrorists, if they're US citizens (non US citizens on foreign soil have no expectation of constitutional protections just because they're fighting US soldiers or in US custody. Such is war).

Besides... forbidding a "terrorist" from legally buying a gun isn't going to deter them if they're set on doing a suicide attack, if they're willing to die for their cause, the threat of a federal gun possession charge isn't a deterrent.

[rwc1969]

...
It sounds to me like, if this bill is passed, they could decide who can, and can't own a gun, for reasons known only to them, and no-one can contest their decisions.

That sounds reasonable.:online2long:

[Ole WV Coot]

Actually you don't need to read the bill, just the sponsor will tell you what you need to know. I do keep a close check on my state and states where I travel often. If I did own any firearms other than the old 22 I have a CCW for they would be purchased from individuals not sporting goods stores. It is still legal to purchase from others. I turned in my FFL years ago because of the paperwork and was informed by the BATF that I was "lacking" paperwork on a couple of handguns. They DO check.

[Rick]

This is truly scary stuff. No doubt, they think they are helping the cause and on the surface it sounds like a reasonable thing. However, it doesn't take but a bit of imagination to understand the quagmire of complications either could cause.

S-1317 is simply too vague and loaded with phrases like, "Attorney General's discretion to deny transfer of a firearm." What does that mean?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.1317:

H.R. 2159

http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.2159:

Write your Senators and Representatives!!

[Rick]

This is about as good a 25,000 post as I could come up with.

Senators John McCain and Jon Tester along with Representatives Travis Childers and Mark Souder (Indiana, yeah!) have just introduced the Second Amendment Enforcement Act in Congress. It is designed to force the District of Columbia to abide by the Second Amendment and give the folks in D.C. the right to protect themselves...as they should be able to.

[BENESSE]

Isn't the question more about making sure legitimate suspects make it on the terrorist watch list and get stopped before they do anything?
From what I've been able to discern so far, more people who should have been "watched" fell through the cracks and ended up inflicting damage as opposed to the innocent people being watched & charged.

All I see is slackness and poor prevention, time after time.

[crashdive123]

Isn't the question more about making sure legitimate suspects make it on the terrorist watch list and get stopped before they do anything?
From what I've been able to discern so far, more people who should have been "watched" fell through the cracks and ended up inflicting damage as opposed to the innocent people being watched & charged.

All I see is slackness and poor prevention, time after time.

Oh if only it was that simple. The stated goals of the FBI Terrorist Suspect Data Base (TSDB) are laudable. Sadly, the reality of that list does not mirror the goals. Here's a bit from about the data base from http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/counterrorism/faqs.htm


Are there U.S. citizens in the TSDB?
Yes. U.S. citizens are included in TSDB if, under HSPD-6, there is a reasonable suspicion that they are known or reasonably suspected of terrorism.


Can I find out if I am in the TSDB?

The TSC cannot reveal whether a particular person is in the TSDB. The TSDB remains an effective tool in the government’s counterterrorism efforts because its contents are not disclosed. If TSC revealed who was in the TSDB, terrorist organizations would be able to circumvent the purpose of the terrorist watchlist by determining in advance which of their members are likely to be questioned or detained.

It should be noted that the guy that tried to set off a bomb in time square, and then subsequently got on an airplane has been on that list since 2005 (not sure if that date is exact).

Also - since we are not told if we are placed on the list, and in some people's view most of the people registered here as people needing to be on the list. Members of the military returning from deployment or former military members (according to the Secretary of Homeland Security) should also be on the list. I don't even see this as a slipery slope, but rather an avalanche.

[BENESSE]

Oh if only it was that simple. The stated goals of the FBI Terrorist Suspect Data Base (TSDB) are laudable. Sadly, the reality of that list does not mirror the goals. Here's a bit from about the data base from http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/counterrorism/faqs.htm

Crash, thanks, I went through the link. Helped me put things in perspective.

It should be noted that the guy that tried to set off a bomb in time square, and then subsequently got on an airplane has been on that list since 2005 (not sure if that date is exact).
That's exactly what I'm saying--why did he fall through the cracks? And why was he even allowed to become a US citizen in 09?!!!

Also - since we are not told if we are placed on the list, and in some people's view most of the people registered here as people needing to be on the list. Why would they? This from the website above: "Per HSPD-6, only individuals who are known or reasonably suspected to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism are included in the TSDB." Members of the military returning from deployment or former military members (according to the Secretary of Homeland Security) should also be on the list. Where does it say that? That would be idiotic if it were true. I don't even see this as a slipery slope, but rather an avalanche.

Crash, I too would think it was an avalanche if I didn't see more guilty cases fall through the cracks than innocent ones treated unfairly. Since striving to achieve balance seems to elude everyone, the devastation of one Tim Mc'Vey falling through the cracks is much worse than Benesse not getting her gun permit in NYC. Will it pi$$ me off if it comes to that? You bet! But for me it won't constitute the end of the world. The end of the world will come much closer when the next person falls through the cracks. Again.

[crashdive123]

To answer some of your questions that were highlighted in red.... The first source has an obvious political point of view, however the quotes that they attribute to her are accurate as far as my recollection of events when the story broke (quite some time ago).

http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=3732

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=94803



Crash, I too would think it was an avalanche if I didn't see more guilty cases fall through the cracks than innocent ones treated unfairly. Since striving to achieve balance seems to elude everyone, the devastation of one Tim Mc'Vey falling through the cracks is much worse than Benesse not getting her gun permit in NYC. Will it pi$$ me off if it comes to that? You bet! But for me it won't constitute the end of the world. The end of the world will come much closer when the next person falls through the cracks. Again.

It would to me. I think the example is a red herring. One (securing our homeland against domestic terrorism) has nothing to do with the other (having our Constitutional rights trampled on). I just disagree that draconian gun law (which I believe to be unConstitutional) would do nothing to prevent the rental of a truck, purchase of diesel fuel and ammonium nitrate fertilizer. By the way - pest control suppliers have very stringent restrictions on the sale of that type of fertilizer.

[Sourdough]

It would to me. I think the example is a red herring. One (securing our homeland against domestic terrorism) has nothing to do with the other (having our Constitutional rights trampled on).


I support what the NRA claims as its objectives, I do not support the way they twist events in an endless effort to beg for more money. I eventually quit being a member of the NRA because I feel it is mismanaged, disseminates "Red Herrings", and always draws the Hard-line in the wrong location. I am glad that they do what they do, I just wish they did it smarter.

[2dumb2kwit]

Crash, I too would think it was an avalanche if I didn't see more guilty cases fall through the cracks than innocent ones treated unfairly. Since striving to achieve balance seems to elude everyone, the devastation of one Tim Mc'Vey falling through the cracks is much worse than Benesse not getting her gun permit in NYC. Will it pi$$ me off if it comes to that? You bet! But for me it won't constitute the end of the world. The end of the world will come much closer when the next person falls through the cracks. Again.

B, You're falling for their misdirection. Doing what they propose will just pile more hay on the stack, making it even harder to find the needle. There fore, a bunch of people will loose another one of their rights, and the situation (The claimed reason, for the bill.) is actually worse, not better.

[BENESSE]

B, You're falling for their misdirection. Doing what they propose will just pile more hay on the stack, making it even harder to find the needle. There fore, a bunch of people will loose another one of their rights, and the situation (The claimed reason, for the bill.) is actually worse, not better.

Actually, I'm not falling for anyone's talking points--just trying to make up my own mind while sorting out facts and opinions.
So far I found that both sides make some questionable arguments and expect us to take a leap of faith on something so vitally important to our lives.
It's hard to find impartial views on such a polarizing issue.

[2dumb2kwit]

Actually, I'm not falling for anyone's talking points--just trying to make up my own mind while sorting out facts and opinions.
So far I found that both sides make some questionable arguments and expect us to take a leap of faith on something so vitally important to our lives.
It's hard to find impartial views on such a polarizing issue.

LOL....agreed.

How about do me this favor. Read what they want. The actual wording of....not just what they say that it means, or what it will do. Then apply logic and reason, without letting emotion cloud the facts, and see if you think what they are proposing will do anything near what they say it will.

Just weigh the benefits vs. the cost. The way I read it, I don't see any benefits, and I see huge cost.

[Rick]

On the whole, there have only be a handful of cases, that we know of, where the intelligence community has messed up. Of course, those gain tremendous press coverage. It would be equally interesting to know just how many they got right...that we never hear about.

Removing anyone's Constitutional rights is a gross failure of the government. Other the other hand, not very many terrorists have acted with a rifle or handgun. So I'm not certain what benefit is gained by denying anyone we "think" "might" be a terrorist or "might" use a weapon as a terrorist. And denying anyone due process is contrary to what the U.S. is all about, establishes a presumption of guilt over innocence, and is just plain wrong.

[Rick]

Here's another sad example of why banning guns doesn't work. This one from China.

"A man wielding a kitchen cleaver killed seven children and two teachers at a kindergarten in northwest China on Wednesday, in the latest of a series of attacks on schools that has sparked widespread public alarm."

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2010/0512/Another-gruesome-school-attack-hits-China

[BENESSE]

A pretty good write-up presenting both sides.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0420/On-Columbine-school-shooting-anniversary-focus-on-gun-loophole

"When Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold embarked on their shooting spree at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., in 1999, three of the four guns they used were purchased at a gun show by a friend who wasn’t subjected to a background check.

Now, on the 11th anniversary of the Columbine school shooting where Harris and Klebold killed 12 classmates and a teacher and injured 23 others before shooting themselves, gun-control activists are focusing on the so-called “gun show loophole” that allows people to purchase guns from private sellers without the normal paperwork and background checks.

“This is such a simple fix for an important transfer point for crime guns,” says Josh Horowitz, executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

Gun-rights advocates counter that the law is would do little to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and would add yet more red tape for many law-abiding citizens trying to purchase guns.

On Monday, Mr. Horowitz’s organization paid for a full-page ad in the Denver Post in which Daniel Mauser, the father of a slain Columbine student, urged Colorado Sen. Mark Udall (D) to support a federal bill that would expand criminal background checks at gun shows. (A Colorado bill requiring background checks for all sellers at gun shows in the state was passed in 2000.)

Mayors Against Illegal Guns – a national coalition started by New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Boston Mayor Thomas Menino – used the Columbine anniversary Tuesday to announce a new TV ad campaign targeting the loophole, appealing in particular to key senators in five states.

“Eleven years after Columbine – it’s time,” says the ad, which the group is airing in Colorado, Maine, Massachusetts, Ohio, and Virginia as well as some national stations.
What about the Second Amendment?

“This has nothing to do with the Second Amendment; this has everything to do with public safety,” says Jake Sullivan, a member of Mayor Menino’s staff who works on coalition issues. “These anniversaries are important reminders of the need to close these loopholes and to do our best to keep our communities safe.”

He points to statistics from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives showing that 30 percent of guns involved in federal illegal gun-trafficking investigations are tied to gun shows. And he notes that the man who shot and wounded two police officers near the Pentagon last month also obtained one of his weapons from a gun show, despite the fact that he was barred from owning a gun because of mental problems.

Family members of slain Virginia Tech victims also published an open letter to Virginia senators on Monday, calling on them to pass the gun-show legislation.

While Seung-Hui Cho, the shooter who killed 32 people at Virginia Tech three years ago, did not obtain his gun from a gun show, victims’ family members have noted that new laws incorporating mental-health records into background checks would be less effective if mentally unstable people could simply bypass the check at a gun show.
Gun-rights lobby fights restrictions

The gun-rights lobby vehemently opposes the law.

“It seems [the mayors’ group] is continuing the crass strategy of other gun-control groups of trying to exploit tragedies for political purposes,” says Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for National Rifle Association.

Mr. Arulanandam says that the checks are particularly onerous since they can last 72 hours and most gun shows take place over two days.

“The intent here is to drive gun shows out of business,” he says.

Gun-control activists refute this characterization, saying that 92 percent of all background checks are resolved immediately – and are already conducted without problems by all licensed dealers selling at gun shows.

Arulanandam, however, sees the law a matter of misplaced priorities. “The whole idea of this is to try to make it as difficult as possible for law-abiding people to go to gun shows,” he says. “Essentially they’re leaving the criminal element alone.”

Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, goes even further, saying that all background checks should be abolished. “It’s only an imposition on the good guys,” he says.

While people on both sides of the gun debate focused on gun shows Tuesday, those closer to the Columbine massacre largely remembered the tragedy more quietly. Columbine High School was closed, and many in the area were visiting the memorial dedicated in 2007."

I don't see a problem with closing this loophole. It's not a be-all end-all solution, just another "tool in the belt". IMO it's a small price to pay. If the lives saved were only those of your loved ones would that be an insufficient reason?

[BENESSE]

Here's another sad example of why banning guns doesn't work. This one from China.

"A man wielding a kitchen cleaver killed seven children and two teachers at a kindergarten in northwest China on Wednesday, in the latest of a series of attacks on schools that has sparked widespread public alarm."

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2010/0512/Another-gruesome-school-attack-hits-China

What about the Fort Hood massacre?
(I know I can outrun a knife but not a bullet.)
We can go on ad nauseam with examples of pro and con--I am personally pro (guns), with including background checks--no loopholes.

[2dumb2kwit]

A pretty good write-up presenting both sides.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0420/On-Columbine-school-shooting-anniversary-focus-on-gun-loophole

"When Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold embarked on their shooting spree at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., in 1999, three of the four guns they used were purchased at a gun show by a friend who wasn’t subjected to a background check.
So?
1. They don't tell you if he would have passed a background check, which leads me to believe that he would have passed it.
2. They may not have used them, but they had guns that were stolen from a grandfather or uncle.(I can't remember which.) If their friend hadn't bought those guns, it would not have mattered.
3. Once again, they are playing on emotion, without admitting that what they want, wouldn't have stopped the tragedy.

Now, on the 11th anniversary of the Columbine school shooting where Harris and Klebold killed 12 classmates and a teacher and injured 23 others before shooting themselves, gun-control activists are focusing on the so-called “gun show loophole” that allows people to purchase guns from private sellers without the normal paperwork and background checks.

Once again...playing on emotion.

“This is such a simple fix for an important transfer point for crime guns,” says Josh Horowitz, executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

No it's not. It's taking away rights from good people, without stopping gun violence.

Gun-rights advocates counter that the law is would do little to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and would add yet more red tape for many law-abiding citizens trying to purchase guns.

On Monday, Mr. Horowitz’s organization paid for a full-page ad in the Denver Post in which Daniel Mauser, the father of a slain Columbine student, urged Colorado Sen. Mark Udall (D) to support a federal bill that would expand criminal background checks at gun shows. (A Colorado bill requiring background checks for all sellers at gun shows in the state was passed in 2000.)

Yet again...playing on emotion, without any supporting facts.
Mayors Against Illegal Guns – a national coalition started by New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Boston Mayor Thomas Menino – used the Columbine anniversary Tuesday to announce a new TV ad campaign targeting the loophole, appealing in particular to key senators in five states.

“Eleven years after Columbine – it’s time,” says the ad, which the group is airing in Colorado, Maine, Massachusetts, Ohio, and Virginia as well as some national stations.

More playing on emotion.
What about the Second Amendment?

“This has nothing to do with the Second Amendment; this has everything to do with public safety,”

B.S! Show me how many guns sold at a gun show, without a background check, are involved in violent crimes! Then show me where that falls, on the list of dangers to the public.
says Jake Sullivan, a member of Mayor Menino’s staff who works on coalition issues. “These anniversaries are important reminders of the need to close these loopholes and to do our best to keep our communities safe.”

He points to statistics from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives showing that 30 percent of guns involved in federal illegal gun-trafficking investigations are tied to gun shows.

What about the violent crime numbers? They don't want to show those, because it will hurt their case......and are these 30% numbers from that flawed Mexico report, that has been miss quoted, to death?
And he notes that the man who shot and wounded two police officers near the Pentagon last month also obtained one of his weapons from a gun show, despite the fact that he was barred from owning a gun because of mental problems.

"One of"....so what they want, wouldn't have stopped this one, either.
Family members of slain Virginia Tech victims also published an open letter to Virginia senators on Monday, calling on them to pass the gun-show legislation.

He didn't get his guns from a gun show. He went through a background check, yet they still use this to try and further their cause. Why......because of the emotion, that it stirs up.

While Seung-Hui Cho, the shooter who killed 32 people at Virginia Tech three years ago, did not obtain his gun from a gun show, victims’ family members have noted that new laws incorporating mental-health records into background checks would be less effective if mentally unstable people could simply bypass the check at a gun show.

This wasn't a result of the gun laws....it was the privacy laws.Gun-rights lobby fights restrictions

The gun-rights lobby vehemently opposes the law.

“It seems [the mayors’ group] is continuing the crass strategy of other gun-control groups of trying to exploit tragedies for political purposes,” says Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for National Rifle Association.

Mr. Arulanandam says that the checks are particularly onerous since they can last 72 hours and most gun shows take place over two days.

“The intent here is to drive gun shows out of business,” he says.

Gun-control activists refute this characterization, saying that 92 percent of all background checks are resolved immediately – and are already conducted without problems by all licensed dealers selling at gun shows.

Arulanandam, however, sees the law a matter of misplaced priorities. “The whole idea of this is to try to make it as difficult as possible for law-abiding people to go to gun shows,” he says. “Essentially they’re leaving the criminal element alone.”

Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, goes even further, saying that all background checks should be abolished. “It’s only an imposition on the good guys,” he says.

While people on both sides of the gun debate focused on gun shows Tuesday, those closer to the Columbine massacre largely remembered the tragedy more quietly. Columbine High School was closed, and many in the area were visiting the memorial dedicated in 2007."

.....and throw some more emotion in, for the end of the article.
I don't see a problem with closing this loophole. It's not a be-all end-all solution, just another "tool in the belt". IMO it's a small price to pay. If the lives saved were only those of your loved ones would that be an insufficient reason?

Your feelings are mis-placed. Why not make maditory background checks for buying booze? It kills waaaaaay more people than guns sold at gun shows. (By private sellers. Keep in mind, that most guns sold at gunshows, are sold by dealers, who do background checks.) In fact, I'd bet that it kills more people than all guns, in the U.S.

[2dumb2kwit]

What about the Fort Hood massacre?
(I know I can outrun a knife but not a bullet.)
We can go on ad nauseam with examples of pro and con--I am personally pro (guns), with including background checks--no loopholes.

What about it? More of these right stealing laws, would not have stopped it.

[Rick]

If massacres are the real concern then we need to ban automobiles.

1. No matter what you ban, something will takes it's place. You might be able to out run a knife. You might not be able to. Lot's of folks have been killed with them as well as clubs, bricks, and hands.

2. A very novel approach might be to utilize the laws already on the books to prosecute those using guns in the commission of a crime. Oh, and don't let them out again.

3. When they finally pass the very last law that completely precludes me from possessing a firearm are we sure that will keep criminals at bay as well? London police recently announced that shootings have nearly doubled in London; an increase of 91.8% and they still refuse to arm LEO. If they can't do it in England how on earth do we think we can do it here?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/03/london-gun-crime-shootings-rise

[BENESSE]

We just see things differently 2D, and I'm hardly on the extreme left. Thank God we live in a democracy where the majority still decides.

[Rick]

Re: Ft. Hood. Should China ban meat clevers?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

We just see things differently 2D, and I'm hardly on the extreme left. Thank God we live in a democracy where the majority still decides.

What happened to the Republic?

[BENESSE]

Re: Ft. Hood. Should China ban meat clevers?

Why not just answer the question?
Surely Ft. Hood Could have been prevented.
If not, we're in a sorrier state of affairs than I thought.

[BENESSE]

What happened to the Republic?

Beats me, AS. That train has left the station I think.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Beats me, AS. That train has left the station I think.

"Democracy is two wolves and lamb discussing whats for dinner, Liberty is a well armed Lamb contesting the vote".

[2dumb2kwit]

We just see things differently 2D, and I'm hardly on the extreme left. Thank God we live in a democracy where the majority still decides.

I think, what A.S. was getting at, is that we don't live in a democracy. We live in a democratic Republic. (Our founding fathers were kinda smart.) And the majority doesn't directly decide these things. We elect representatives, and they decide. Problem is, it doesn't take a majority of Americans, to elect them.......just the majority of people that vote. Think about it......about 2/3's of the country did not vote for the current President.

[2dumb2kwit]

We just see things differently 2D, and I'm hardly on the extreme left. Thank God we live in a democracy where the majority still decides.

Well now....that's kind of a relative thing, ain't it? LOL:tongue_smilie:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

What I mean is America and its founding principals are long gone and not even remembered in places like California and New York. My inalienable rights were endowed by God, talk amoungst yourselves all you want and vote however you please, "Free men don't need permission to own guns".

[BENESSE]

I think, what A.S. was getting at, is that we don't live in a democracy. We live in a democratic Republic. (Our founding fathers were kinda smart.) And the majority doesn't directly decide these things. We elect representatives, and they decide. Problem is, it doesn't take a majority of Americans, to elect them.......just the majority of people that vote. Think about it......about 2/3's of the country did not vote for the current President.

Well, that's the system pardner, the founding fathers were smart. Sometimes you "win", sometimes you "loose". What's guaranteed is that SOMEONE will always be unhappy no matter what. The way I've felt for a long time, I'm screwed most of all, for I am an Independent and nether party addresses my needs. I contribute disproportionately more in every way than I take. Frankly, my footprint hardly even registers in this country...and yet, I've learned to live with it and work within the system to influence any change that makes sense to me. Short of checking out or becoming a hermit, that's the only way I know to be a productive member of our society. But then I might be overlooking other options.

[BENESSE]

Well now....that's kind of a relative thing, ain't it? LOL:tongue_smilie:

No it ain't!
Trust me, you don't know what left is. I do, and it ain't me.:)

[BENESSE]

What I mean is America and its founding principals are long gone and not even remembered in places like California and New York. My inalienable rights were endowed by God, talk amoungst yourselves all you want and vote however you please, "Free men don't need permission to own guns".

I couldn't agree more AS.
However free insane men do. Or should, IMO.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I couldn't agree more AS.
However free insane men do. Or should, IMO.

No system is perfect but individual rights and even more localized states rights limit the size and scope of the insanity. Insanity on a GLOBAL scale is what worries me. I can take care of myself and a few nutjobs here or there don't concern me near as much, especially when well armed.

[Winnie]

Just to show how licensing guns and/or gun owners doesn't work, here are the two headline stories that put paid to gun ownership in this country. There was a major Kneejerk reaction to the Hungerford massacre in 1986 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre, it still didn't stop the Dunblane massacre in 1996 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre#Timeline_of_events.
Note both perpetrators were licensed and legally owned the guns that caused all the damage. This goes to show that changing gun laws doesn't work and in fact has made things worse.
There are now more illegal guns on the streets in the UK than ever before being used in illegal acts. It's not just the cities that suffer gun crime. One of my neighbours was burgled at gun point last year and I live in the middle of nowhere.
I guess my point is it doesn't matter whether gun licensing or regisration is tightened up or not, there are still elements in society that will abuse the system. Personally I'd rather have a choice whether I owned a firearm or not than have laws preventing me from doing so.
Keep your eye on that ball folks.

[BENESSE]

Winnie, I understand where you're coming from but over here the laws aren't as restrictive and my argument is not against owning guns. On the contrary. People find it simpler to make it into an all or nothing proposition and the logic just isn't there to justify an absolute solution either way.

[2dumb2kwit]

No it ain't!
Trust me, you don't know what left is. I do, and it ain't me.:)

LOL...Don't get all riled up. I wasn't trying to insult you. Heck.....in some circles, I'm considered left of center. Where you live, you're probably considered just shy of being a right wing extremist.:innocent: LOL

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Winnie, I understand where you're coming from but over here the laws aren't as restrictive and my argument is not against owning guns. On the contrary. People find it simpler to make it into an all or nothing proposition and the logic just isn't there to justify an absolute solution either way.

Bennesse, I see the wrong of it is when they are used to impose your will on another. The wrong is imposing your will on others not the gun. A gun is just not your way of imposing on others, you'd rather have a law with miltary and police with guns to impose it.

[BENESSE]

Bennesse, I see the wrong of it is when they are used to impose your will on another. The wrong is imposing your will on others not the gun. A gun is just not your way of imposing on others, you'd rather have a law with miltary and police with guns to impose it.

AS, I don't really think I disagree.
But let me just ask point blank, because that's what the issue is at least in my mind:
Do you think that anyone no matter who they are (insane or criminal) should own a gun?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

AS, I don't really think I disagree.
But let me just ask point blank, because that's what the issue is at least in my mind:
Do you think that anyone no matter who they are (insane or criminal) should own a gun?

No I don't but don't think gun laws will stop them from getting guns, only leave you defenseless against them.

[Winnie]

Bee, until the Hungerford massacre, firearms laws were pretty relaxed here too. What I'm trying(badly) to say is from an outsiders perspective it seems that various rules and regulations seem to be nibbling away at the US citizens right to own firearms.
AS, you've hit the nail on the head there. That's EXACTLY the situation over here.

[BENESSE]

No I don't but don't think gun laws will stop them from getting guns, only leave you defenseless against them.

Well I'd say that about criminals but the insane are not necessarily criminals to begin with. They may not use a gun if the opportunity to get one easily wasn't there.
What I really want is for me to have a gun and for them not to. Why is that so bad?

[Winnie]

That's why I posted the Hungerford and Dunblane examples Bee, both those men were fully licensed and had been vetted.

[BENESSE]

That's why I posted the Hungerford and Dunblane examples Bee, both those men were fully licensed and had been vetted.

Winnie, there are no perfect solutions in a free society--all we can do is exercise common sense and reasonable caution.
Short of that, are we really talking about arming everyone (no questions asked) and letting the chips fall where they may?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Well I'd say that about criminals but the insane are not necessarily criminals to begin with. They may not use a gun if the opportunity to get one easily wasn't there.
What I really want is for me to have a gun and for them not to. Why is that so bad?

The harder they are to get the more profit there is in getting them and you know how criminals like easy money. They may even get as hard to get as drugs.

[Winnie]

No I'm not saying that at all Bee, and I quite agree that excerising common sense is appropriate. On the other hand, should'nt anyone be able to apply for ownership of a firearm, then let that common sense decide?
It's too late over here, I'm just trying to make you aware of the dangers adding more restrictions may have to firearm ownership in your neck of the woods.

[BENESSE]

No I'm not saying that at all Bee, and I quite agree that excerising common sense is appropriate. On the other hand, should'nt anyone be able to apply for ownership of a firearm, then let that common sense decide?
It's too late over here, I'm just trying to make you aware of the dangers adding more restrictions may have to firearm ownership in your neck of the woods.

So we ARE in agreement after all!
That's all I ever advocated. No more, no less.

[Rick]

Benesse, if you could point to D.C. or Chicago or any other city where gun ownership is illegal and say that crime had gone down then there might be an argument for some restrictions. However, that is not the case. There are currently laws on the books to keep both criminals and those that have been adjudicated as mentally deficient from owning or purchasing handguns. More laws won't improve the situation.


Why not just answer the question?
Surely Ft. Hood Could have been prevented.

Okay, I will. You will never stop someone that is off the radar from committing a terrible act. Nidal Hasan is a good example. An army officer with no known ties to extremist groups and no criminal history. How do you foresee that? The only way is to prevent anyone from owning weapons because someone might go berserk at any time. Handguns were simply tools he chose to employ. He could just as easily ran them down in his car or blown the building up.

[Winnie]

Hurrah! We both meant the same thing in different ways!

[randyt]

What I'm trying(badly) to say is from an outsiders perspective it seems that various rules and regulations seem to be nibbling away at the US citizens right to own firearms.

i see it the same way and that's why i'm against any gun law it's just one step closer to what some want. it's difficult to do overnight but a little bit at a time.

one of the problems with gun owners is they don't always stick together. a dove hunter usually don't give a darn about a machine gun collector or what ever, the examples are numerous. or i hear statements like "what do you need that for" it's not about need.

[Winnie]

i see it the same way and that's why i'm against any gun law it's just one step closer to what some want. it's difficult to do overnight but a little bit at a time.

one of the problems with gun owners is they don't always stick together. a dove hunter usually don't give a darn about a machine gun collector or what ever, the examples are numerous. or i hear statements like "what do you need that for" it's not about need.

They did it in one big hit over here, one day you could own a gun with a simple registration, the next no deal. All firearms owners had to reapply immediately and a lot were turned down. Shotgun owners (including me) were refused renewals of their certificates. I recall Ken calling the reasons for refusal "pretexts". Moving the goalposts by stealth is sneaky and easily missed!

[Camp10]

i see it the same way and that's why i'm against any gun law it's just one step closer to what some want. it's difficult to do overnight but a little bit at a time.

one of the problems with gun owners is they don't always stick together. a dove hunter usually don't give a darn about a machine gun collector or what ever, the examples are numerous. or i hear statements like "what do you need that for" it's not about need.

Great Post! I hear the "what do you need that for?" question from other hunters also. I thought the second was given to us to protect from oppressive governments, not to kill a duck.

I dont buy into the "if one person can be saved" BS when it comes to destroying the constitution. This goes for gun control, health care, anti-spill gas cans that dump all over the place, 1.6 gallon per flush toilets we are required to have, etc,etc.

[randyt]

They did it in one big hit over here, one day you could own a gun with a simple registration, the next no deal. All firearms owners had to reapply immediately and a lot were turned down. Shotgun owners (including me) were refused renewals of their certificates. I recall Ken calling the reasons for refusal "pretexts". Moving the goalposts by stealth is sneaky and easily missed!



i think our second amendment makes it challenging to do it over night here but keep replacing the supreme court judges with anti-gunners and nibble away in other areas and eventually it'll be like "what happened"

[BENESSE]

Benesse, if you could point to D.C. or Chicago or any other city where gun ownership is illegal and say that crime had gone down then there might be an argument for some restrictions. However, that is not the case. There are currently laws on the books to keep both criminals and those that have been adjudicated as mentally deficient from owning or purchasing handguns. More laws won't improve the situation.
I certainly never advocated for new laws--just enforcing the ones we already have such as background checks.

(Ft. Hood question)
Okay, I will. You will never stop someone that is off the radar from committing a terrible act. Nidal Hasan is a good example. An army officer with no known ties to extremist groups and no criminal history. How do you foresee that? There were many red flags which were ignored. He should have been relieved of his position.The only way is to prevent anyone from owning weapons because someone might go berserk at any time. If there is a history of imbalance and mental illness why take a chance? Would you allow a person like that to be armed and around your grandkids? Handguns were simply tools he chose to employ. He could just as easily ran them down in his car or blown the building up. Sure, a 12 year old can do the same thing should we let him carry a gun?

While we're at it, let's legalize drugs and prostitution.
(I am not joking!) That can come under The Pursuit Of Happiness.

[randyt]

Great Post! I hear the "what do you need that for?" question from other hunters also. I thought the second was given to us to protect from oppressive governments, not to kill a duck.

I dont buy into the "if one person can be saved" BS when it comes to destroying the constitution. This goes for gun control, health care, anti-spill gas cans that dump all over the place, 1.6 gallon per flush toilets we are required to have, etc,etc.


i always ask what do you need a car that goes over the speed limit or a coloured tv or indoor plumbing or what ever. it's not about need it's about exercising the second amendment. i like to keep it strong so i exercise it a lot :)

[2dumb2kwit]

While we're at it, let's legalize drugs and prostitution.
(I am not joking!) That can come under The Pursuit Of Happiness.

That would save more lives than any gun laws that were ever thought of.

BTW....most drug laws were enacted to stop people from using drugs irresponsibly. Does that sound familiar?

[2dumb2kwit]

Here is a good read, about how drugs became illegal. If you take a few minutes to read it, you might be amazed at how much it sounds like the arguments about guns.

http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/303a.htm


Prior to 1883, there were no federal laws against the manufacture, sale, use, or possession of drugs. As drugs had been available since before the Pilgrims arrived, the United States seemed to survive—even thrive—with no drug restrictions whatsoever. The primary "drug problem" was alcohol—not marijuana, morphine, or cocaine. Even state laws against drugs did not begin to appear until the late nineteenth century.
In California in 1875, a blatantly racist law against opium was passed. Prejudice against the Chinese was high. The city of San Francisco prohibited establishments where opium was smoked. The law—like all drug laws that followed—failed. The large, well-run opium houses closed, but were immediately replaced by smaller, less reputable opium dens. A similar law was passed in Virginia City, Nevada, and similarly failed to work. Rather than realizing that such laws don't work, the Nevada state legislature made even more stringent laws. The state laws didn't work any better than the city laws, but that didn't stop other cities and states from passing laws. When all these laws failed, the United States Congress got involved. (Sound familiar?)



All that these regulatory and restrictive efforts accomplished, however, was to build the Chinese underworld (the "tongs"), corrupt the Treasury Department, and increase the nation's opium smoking at least nine fold. The Secretary of the Treasury wrote the Speaker of the House of Representatives on January 12, 1888, "Although all possible efforts have been made by this Department to suppress the traffic, it has found it practically impossible to do so." The United States government, of course, responded with more laws and more law enforcement officers.
As this onslaught only affected "the heathen Chinee" [sic] and not "Americans," no one much cared. All other forms of opium—the types preferred by most white Americans—were perfectly legal and modestly taxed. Why should anyone worry about defending the rights of the Chinese? If they wanted to smoke opium, it was said, they could go back to China. A legal precedent, however, was set by the racist opium restrictions.



The Harrison Act, in fact, did not prohibit drugs. The act only regulated and taxed the importation and distribution of "opium or coca leaves, their salts, derivatives, or preparations, and for other purposes." It seemed reasonable to regulate, not prohibit, opium, cocaine, and their derivatives. "It is unlikely that a single legislator realized in 1914," wrote Edward M. Brecher, "that the law Congress was passing would later be deemed a Prohibition law."



Like the Harrison Narcotics Act before it, the Marijuana Tax Act claimed—even in the title of the bill—only to tax marijuana. It was yet another deception perpetrated on Congress and the American people: the intent of the bill was never to tax, but to prohibit. Beyond mere deception, however, the Big Lie to Congress was yet to come.

[Ole WV Coot]

Well, I got time to read all of this and personally it comes down to being politically correct, no profiling of any type. Frisk Granny and skip the man with the towel on his head. Go overboard for any religion or none, can't irritate anyone. Let's wait until the crap hits the fan then blame somebody. Don't close our borders, we are picking on the Mexicans & Canadians remember? Surely nobody else would take advantage of an open border. Let's skip sanctuary cities and just make the country wide open. Let's all fly the flag where our ancestors came from, now is there a Scotch-Irish-Swedish flag? Can I protest WalMart because they only have English-Spanish signs and don't have Swedish? I am an official minority(Appalachian-American) can I write that in on the census 'cause it ain't there? Do I qualify for a new house that I can't afford now? I am in hock with credit cards, is the government gonna pay them off? Now that I am a minority, officially where do I sign up for all these benefits I deserve? Guns, I should be supplied with them and bodyguards to protect my "minority" rear end. I should have everything I richly deserve. I see nothing wrong with my demands, being a minority and all.....

[Batch]

I couldn't agree more AS.
However free insane men do. Or should, IMO.

In most states it is unlawful for an "insane" person to possess a firearm and it is equally unlawful to knowingly transfer a firearm to an "insane" person.

Though I think you will be a little disappointed to find out that most of the people who commit mass murder haven't been declared legally insane. Baker Acting someone isn't good enough. They have to be diagnosed with some mental defect.

Lots of laws on the books already. But, a nut job with a bug up his arse and a death wish isn't obeying laws. So they won't work to prevent anything.

Even if you could keep him from getting guns. Which is never ever going to be possible so we should sip our utopic koolaid and watch the countries that have tried. But, lets say you did. A nut job could still rack up a real nice body count using vehicles or IEDs. Just to name two.

You should ask why military bases have no trust in their soldiers to carry on base. Arming the soldiers would prevent large body counts against them. But, then you have to properly train them in firearm safety so that you don't have accidental discharges.

[BENESSE]

You should ask why military bases have no trust in their soldiers to carry on base. Arming the soldiers would prevent large body counts against them. But, then you have to properly train them in firearm safety so that you don't have accidental discharges.

I do ask, believe me. Why weren't all the soldiers carrying at Ft. Hood of all places and why isn't ANYone raising a stink over that? After all isn't that what the argument is about--less crime if everyone is armed?

[Rick]

I guess I don't understand. In the Ft. Hood case, there was no history. If there is a history then existing laws cover it.

With respect to gun shows, IN MY STATE, there is no difference between me selling a weapon to my next door neighbor and me selling one at a gun show. IN MY STATE, weapons are a commodity. I think Camp said it very well, "I dont buy into the "if one person can be saved" BS when it comes to destroying the constitution." There is no, "Except when," clause in the 2nd Amendment.

[BENESSE]

I guess I don't understand. In the Ft. Hood case, there was no history. If there is a history then existing laws cover it.
With respect to gun shows, IN MY STATE, there is no difference between me selling a weapon to my next door neighbor and me selling one at a gun show. IN MY STATE, weapons are a commodity. I think Camp said it very well, "I dont buy into the "if one person can be saved" BS when it comes to destroying the constitution." There is no, "Except when," clause in the 2nd Amendment.

If the existing laws were enforced (which is ALL I'm looking for) we wouldn't be having this discussion--at least not from my end.

As far the Ft. Hood terrorist went there were red flags that should have prevented him from serving at best. Endless articles have been written about it--the culpability of his seniors to act--here's one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6526030/Fort-Hood-gunman-had-told-US-military-colleagues-that-infidels-should-have-their-throats-cut.html

[excerpt]
Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the gunman who killed 13 at America's Fort Hood military base, once gave a lecture to other doctors in which he said non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats.
He also told colleagues at America's top military hospital that non-Muslims were infidels condemned to hell who should be set on fire. The outburst came during an hour-long talk Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, gave on the Koran in front of dozens of other doctors at Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington DC, where he worked for six years before arriving at Fort Hood in July.
Colleagues had expected a discussion on a medical issue but were instead given an extremist interpretation of the Koran, which Hasan appeared to believe.
It was the latest in a series of "red flags" about his state of mind that have emerged since the massacre at Fort Hood, America's largest military installation, on Thursday.
Hasan, armed with two handguns including a semi-automatic pistol, walked into a processing centre for soldiers deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan, where he killed 13 and injured more than 30.

Selena Coppa, an activist for Iraq Veterans Against the War, said: "This man was a psychiatrist and was working with other psychiatrists every day and they failed to notice how deeply disturbed someone right in their midst was."
One of Hasan's neighbours described how on the day of the massacre, about 9am, he gave her a Koran and told her: "I'm going to do good work for God" before leaving for the base.
Fellow doctors have recounted how they were repeatedly harangued by Hasan about religion and that he openly claimed to be a "Muslim first and American second."

Senator Joe Lieberman, who chairs the US Senate Committee on Homeland Security, said there had been "strong warning signs" that Hasan was an "Islamist extremist".
The committee would ask "whether the Army missed warning signs that should have led them to essentially discharge him, he said. He added: "The US Army has to have zero tolerance. He should have been gone."


My question still wasn't answered.
Why weren't all soldiers carrying at an army base of all places? Where's the stink about that from you guys? Not a peep. Isn't that the idea though?
Rick you gave an example of Chinese kids being slaughtered with a knife or a cleaver or something, no doubt making a case that the teacher should have been armed. So why weren't the soldiers armed?
Let's just be consistent if nothing else.

[BENESSE]

With respect to gun shows, IN MY STATE, there is no difference between me selling a weapon to my next door neighbor and me selling one at a gun show. IN MY STATE, weapons are a commodity. I think Camp said it very well, "I dont buy into the "if one person can be saved" BS when it comes to destroying the constitution." There is no, "Except when," clause in the 2nd Amendment.

I am not talking about destroying the constitution or even making up new laws--just consistently enforcing the ones we already have. That's all I ever said anywhere.
I know this is a touchy subject for most but no reason reading into it more than it's written.:)

[Rick]

Actually, my point with the cleaver was that when firearms can not be employed any tool can be used to kill lots of folks. I obviously did a poor job of communicating that, sorry.

I don't know why all of the military folks weren't armed. I'm sure some of our vets can answer that.

When I said Hasan had no history, I meant he had no criminal past and had not been been declared mentally deficient by a court. That allowed him to obtain the handguns, legally. I don't know how you prevent that. There are lot's of "crazies" out there off the radar screen. No laws, no matter how stringent (short of baring ownership to everyone) will catch that. But, then see paragraph one.

[Rick]

just consistently enforcing the ones we already have.

Agreed!!!!!

[2dumb2kwit]

I am not talking about destroying the constitution or even making up new laws--just consistently enforcing the ones we already have. That's all I ever said anywhere.
I know this is a touchy subject for most but no reason reading into it more than it's written.:)

You said in your first post, that you couldn't see opposing the new laws, that in my mind do destroy the constitution. Maybe that's where we got that idea, and not by reading things into it, that aren't there.



I just don't get it. NRA finds these bills restrictive and wants me to vote against them. Based on this, I just can't in good conscience and don't understand their logic.

[BENESSE]

You said in your first post, that you couldn't see opposing the new laws, that in my mind do destroy the constitution. Maybe that's where we got that idea, and not by reading things into it, that aren't there.

Just 'cause it's in YOUR mind doesn't make it so.
In MY mind I believe in the second amendment as well as consistently enforcing all current laws.
How's that gonna destroy the constitution?

[Rick]

B - I sorta read it that way, too. Sorry.

[BENESSE]

B - I sorta read it that way, too. Sorry.

Which part?

[Rick]

The same as 2D. The first post seemed to me you were in favor of new laws. I'm sure I'll regret agreeing with him but never-the-less.... That's why I said I was confused part of the way through.

[crashdive123]

I don't know why all of the military folks weren't armed. I'm sure some of our vets can answer that.



I can only speak about Navy bases. Keep in mind that there are many individual tenant commands on a military installation. For example - Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base - You have a base commander and staff. Some of the other tenant commands include - Each of the Submarine commands that are assigned to the base, Strategic Weapons Facility Atlantic, Trident Refit Facility, Trident Training Facility, Magnetic Silencing Facility, Submarine Group Nine, Submarine Squadron Twenty,....and the list goes on and on. Keep in mind that each of these commands have a specific mission to accomplish. The men & women that carry weapons on base do so in the performance of their duties. If those duties require the carrying of a weapon in order to properly carry out those duties, then they are issued. If the duties do not require a weapon, then they are not. For example - none of the students or staff at the training or repair facility carry weapons. The base security details do. The nuclear weapons security guards do (and some pretty cool weapons at that). It's kind of like the proper tool for the job sort of thing. If I'm teaching a class on the Duplex Platform Interface Buffer of the Electrostatically Supported Gyro Navigator - the proper tools will include paper, pens, dry erase markers, etc. When I worked at the Refit facility I was issued a pretty extensive tool box - one that I would love to own. When the job was done, I turned in the tools, just as I would turn in my weapons after a guard detail.

[BENESSE]

The same as 2D. The first post seemed to me you were in favor of new laws. I'm sure I'll regret agreeing with him but never-the-less.... That's why I said I was confused part of the way through.

OK.
Other than this last part...:
"The watchlist bills further propose that a person seeking relief in court from these new restrictions would be prevented from examining and challenging "evidence" against him, and that the judge deciding whether the person had been watchlisted for good reason be limited to summaries and redacted versions of such "evidence."
...where I commented with So?! nothing else is so earth shattering that it actually threatens to destroy the constitution. That's why I asked, what am I missing?
However, good points were made regarding that last part--every citizen's constitutional right to due process-- and now I'm on board there. Turns out I was missing something. Glad I axed.

[2dumb2kwit]

nothing else is so earth shattering that it actually threatens to destroy the constitution.

It would still be a law, punishing/removing rights of people on a list that is at best, very in-accurate. We won't even get into whether or not some people should have ever been on that list, but according to their own numbers, the number of people on the list, that should have already been removed (According to FBI standards) runs between 8% and 35%, depending on time frame, and portion of list checked. With over a million names on that list, 8% to 35% is a lot of people falsely strip of their rights.

Mind you,that just because someone is on the list, doesn't mean that they have commited any crime.




http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/FBI/a0925/final.pdf

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Just 'cause it's in YOUR mind doesn't make it so.
In MY mind I believe in the second amendment as well as consistently enforcing all current laws.
How's that gonna destroy the constitution?

The original intent of the Second Amendment was a matter of national defense to be able to raise an armed militia quickly to defend our nation. Everything else has been a fringe benifit of that. There is language in our founding documents that would conclude that would include defending against enemies foriegn and domestic. All the arguements and Supreme Court interpretations have been off point since like I said many times all we have been told is a LIE!. If the second amendment is to be changed it should be done so honestly and legally by a 2/3's majority on the grounds that Militia's are an out dated concept on the modern battlefield or that the National Guard should be the way to fulfill the requiremnet of a well regulated militia. It may be a tough case to make, but dammit, I wish they would quit lieing!

[crashdive123]

The original intent of the Second Amendment was a matter of national defense to be able to raise an armed militia quickly to defend our nation. Everything else has been a fringe benifit of that. There is language in our founding documents that would conclude that would include defending against enemies foriegn and domestic. All the arguements and Supreme Court interpretations have been off point since like I said many times all we have been told is a LIE!. If the second amendment is to be changed it should be done so honestly and legally by a 2/3's majority on the grounds that Militia's are an out dated concept on the modern battlefield or that the National Guard should be the way to fulfill the requiremnet of a well regulated militia. It may be a tough case to make, but dammit, I wish they would quit lieing!

I disagree. I believe that was one of the intents, with the larger being for ordinary citizens to be able to defend against a tyrannical, oppressive government.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I disagree. I believe that was one of the intents, with the larger being for ordinary citizens to be able to defend against a tyrannical, oppressive government.

But that is not what it says. I quote:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The writing of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution stated the goal followed by the method it was to be accomplished. The goal was to have a well regulated militia and the method was to have an armed citizenry to form it. It says nothing else. If anything can be concluded along that line it could be said it is about states rights to defend themselves from the federal government (an issue of the time).

[BENESSE]

But that is not what it says. I quote:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The writing of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution stated the goal followed by the method it was to be accomplished. The goal was to have a well regulated militia and the method was to have an armed citizenry to form it. It says nothing else.

If we just followed Switzerland's MO of mandatory peacetime draft there wouldn't be any need for a militia.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

If we just followed Switzerland's MO of mandatory peacetime draft there wouldn't be any need for a militia.

I'll not in favor of mandatory anything and prefer to stay free. I would like to pose this question to Mark Levin. I'm of the school of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". We find ourselves in the position of having to fix past fixes. I see no need to screw it up further.

[Ken]

Language Warning: :innocent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei2WhctlRHY&feature=related

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Language Warning: :innocent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei2WhctlRHY&feature=related

Absolutly Right!

[BENESSE]

I'll not in favor of mandatory anything and prefer to stay free. I would like to pose this question to Mark Levin. I'm of the school of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". We find ourselves in the position of having to fix past fixes. I see no need to screw it up further.

IMO that's because nothing is ever done right and sooner or later it comes back to bite us. Then we're forced to deal with it again, and yet again we do a bare minimum, shoddy at best. Too many cooks, too many compromises. Throw some duct tape on it and hope it holds.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

IMO that's because nothing is ever done right and sooner or later it comes back to bite us. Then we're forced to deal with it again, and yet again we do a bare minimum, shoddy at best. Too many cooks, too many compromises. Throw some duct tape on it and hope it holds.

At some point you have to say this is as good as it gets and leave it alone.

[BENESSE]

At some point you have to say this is as good as it gets and leave it alone.

If this is as good as it gets, what is there to hope for?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

If this is as good as it gets, what is there to hope for?

Your ability to fend for yourself or the second coming. That's it, all else is headed down the tubes.

[2dumb2kwit]

If this is as good as it gets, what is there to hope for?

You could meet me, one day.:innocent: LOL

[BENESSE]

You could meet me, one day.:innocent: LOL

Now THAT would be TEOTWAWKI! LOL!!!

[Ken]

If this is as bad as it gets, what could be worse?


You could meet me, one day.:innocent: LOL

There's your answer, BENESSE. :innocent:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Thanks 2D2K for driving the point home!

[Rick]

Sorry AS but that IS what it says.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I'm not bolding just what I want to bold.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State is a subordinating clause. In short, that part of the sentence is subordinate to the rest of the sentence. You can remove it and the sentence will still convey the same meaning. The Founding Fathers chose to offer why they felt is was necessary for the People to be armed.

the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The subject of the sentence is "right" and "shall not be" is the verb.

So the sentence does, in fact, read, "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." That's pretty succinct and does not offer any wiggle room in my mind.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Rick, We agree on that. I don't understand what where we don't agree. I think we may agree for different reasons?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Are you refering to the meaning of the word "State". Is it a condition or a body of people politically organized? I take it in context.

[Rick]

All the arguements and Supreme Court interpretations have been off point since

The Supreme Court has ruled twice that the 2nd Amendment is a gauranteed right so I think they are squarely on point.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

The Supreme Court has ruled twice that the 2nd Amendment is a gauranteed right so I think they are squarely on point.

Not on the the infringement part of it.

[Ken]

THE SUPREME COURT'S THIRTY-FIVE
OTHER GUN CASES:
WHAT THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID
ABOUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT
David B. Kopel
Saint Louis University Public Law Review
1999
Symposium, Gun Control



http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/35finalpartone.htm

[2dumb2kwit]

On June 26, 2008, by a 5 to 4 decision, the Supreme Court upheld the federal appeals court ruling, striking down the D.C. gun law. Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, stated, "In sum, we hold that the District's ban on handgun possession in the home violates the Second Amendment, as does its prohibition against rendering any lawful firearm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate self-defense ... We affirm the judgment of the Court of Appeals."[42] This ruling upholds the first federal appeals court ruling ever to void a law on Second Amendment grounds.[43]

The Court based its reasoning on the grounds:

that the operative clause of the Second Amendment—"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"—is controlling and refers to a pre-existing right of individuals to possess and carry personal weapons for self-defense and intrinsically for defense against tyranny, based on the bare meaning of the words, the usage of "the people" elsewhere in the Constitution, and historical materials on the clause's original public meaning;
that the prefatory clause, which announces a purpose of a "well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State", comports with, but does not detract from, the meaning of the operative clause and refers to a well-trained citizen militia, which "comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense", as being necessary to the security of a free polity;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

[BENESSE]

The way I read it is in it's entirety...

the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. (because) A well regulated militia (is) being necessary to the security of a free State.

I don't believe either one is meant to stand alone.

Now the question is, who is supposed to regulate the said militia?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Don't you see that's how they do it. They say you are to stupid to read it and know what it means. It really means all this other stuff. Now we are going to have Obama appointees telling us we can't read. Or any body else that went before them.

[Camp10]

The way I read it is in it's entirety...

the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. (because) A well regulated militia (is) being necessary to the security of a free State.

I don't believe either one is meant to stand alone.

Now the question is, who is supposed to regulate the said militia?

As I understand it Benesse, the term was more used the way "trained" would be used today.

[Rick]

Sorry, but according to the rules of English Grammar, a subordinate clause is not important to the central message of the sentence. It can not stand alone because it does NOT convey a complete thought. It does provide insight into the reasoning of the Founding Fathers but their intent is summed up in the complete sentence.

It's no different than if I said, "Until I have my first cup of coffee." It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't communicate an idea. In fact, written that way it's a fragment. "I'm really no good in the morning," does convey the message. The subordinate clause is used to explain why I think I'm no good in the morning. Likewise, the subordinate phrase is used to explain why the Founding Fathers felt the need to provide a Constitutional Amendment to give the People the sovereign right.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Sorry, but according to the rules of English Grammar, a subordinate clause is not important to the central message of the sentence. It can not stand alone because it does NOT convey a complete thought. It does provide insight into the reasoning of the Founding Fathers but their intent is summed up in the complete sentence.

It's no different than if I said, "Until I have my first cup of coffee." It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't communicate an idea. In fact, written that way it's a fragment. "I'm really no good in the morning," does convey the message. The subordinate clause is used to explain why I think I'm no good in the morning. Likewise, the subordinate phrase is used to explain why the Founding Fathers felt the need to provide a Constitutional Amendment to give the People the sovereign right.

So what don't we agree on?

[Rick]

Don't you see that's how they do it. They say you are to stupid to read it and know what it means.

Well, looks like I'm one of "them" now. Okay. I'll be reporting this little soiree then we'll see who's paranoid.

[Rick]

AS, See Post 98

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Well, looks like I'm one of "them" now. Okay. I'll be reporting this little soiree then we'll see who's paranoid.

We are all "them" until we bug out.

[Rick]

(AS used the phrase "Bug Out" at 8:40 P.M. Eastern time. Must be subversive in my opinion.)

Uh, so noted.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I'm a card carrying member of "them". I have recieved training and a ID card and number through Highway Watch to rat on suspicious characters. You would be surprized at the level of security I have had to meet to drive truck these days.

[BENESSE]

Sorry, but according to the rules of English Grammar, a subordinate clause is not important to the central message of the sentence. It can not stand alone because it does NOT convey a complete thought. It does provide insight into the reasoning of the Founding Fathers but their intent is summed up in the complete sentence.

It's no different than if I said, "Until I have my first cup of coffee." It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't communicate an idea. In fact, written that way it's a fragment. "I'm really no good in the morning," does convey the message. The subordinate clause is used to explain why I think I'm no good in the morning. Likewise, the subordinate phrase is used to explain why the Founding Fathers felt the need to provide a Constitutional Amendment to give the People the sovereign right.

I get all that and agree that technically that's how it works. However, I feel that the WHY is extremely important here. WHY the Founding Fathers felt the need to provide a Constitutional Amendment to give the People the sovereign right. Otherwise it's just a nebulous statement they pulled out of...you know.

[Rick]

I can't disagree with that either. It was obviously important to them or it wouldn't have been added.

[Ken]

"plain meaning (rule) legal definition
n
A rule that states if a written provision is in writing and appears on reading to be unambiguous, its meaning must be determined from the writing itself without resorting to outside evidence." http://www.yourdictionary.com/law/plain-meaning-rule

[Batch]

LOL, there are ALL sorts of correspondence from the drafters of the Constitution. A great deal on this subject alone. No matter to me though.

To whom did you give the right to decide to what ability you would be able to defend your family.

The ability to defend the family was never in dispute. The purpose of the second amendment was to over throw tyrannical governments. We are supposed to be properly armed for that purpose.

[Rick]

I believe Ipso Facto would be appropriate here.

[Rick]

Wrong again, Buckwheat. The purpose is as is stated. No where does it state to overthrow anyone. It merely says "being necessary for a free state..." For all we know they were concerned about invasion.

[crashdive123]

Wrong again, Buckwheat. The purpose is as is stated. No where does it state to overthrow anyone. It merely says "being necessary for a free state..." For all we know they were concerned about invasion.

True - or a government that throws out the Constitution.

[Rick]

Not disagreeing with that. Just that it doesn't say it.

[crashdive123]

Zactly.........

[Batch]

I believe Ipso Facto would be appropriate here.
To which part? That the formers of our constitution documented their debates?

[Rick]

Actually, that was to Ken. You posted in between us. I must have been writing while you posted. Sorry.

[BENESSE]

"plain meaning (rule) legal definition
n
A rule that states if a written provision is in writing and appears on reading to be unambiguous, its meaning must be determined from the writing itself without resorting to outside evidence." http://www.yourdictionary.com/law/plain-meaning-rule

That certainly doesn't leave room for interpretation--a good thing, of course. Just as it should be.
But it still makes me wonder...

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State..."
Who's gonna do the regulating?
And would the militia comprise of all gun carrying citizens from all over the country?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

It's settled then. Now all we have to get appointed to the Supreme court or...

[BENESSE]

It's settled then. Now all we have to get appointed to the Supreme court or...

AS, I think we're better off waiting for the second coming.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

That certainly doesn't leave room for interpretation--a good thing, of course. Just as it should be.
But it still makes me wonder...

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State..."
Who's gonna do the regulating?
And would the militia comprise of all gun carrying citizens from all over the country?

Regulating means control in this instance and the purpose is to serve the security of the free state. My understanding the aledgenge would be to the state. States wanted to maintain thier soverienty and the Union was very fragile alliance in the begining and feared federal take over. I wonder why?

[Rick]

I'll volunteer for the Congress. Shoot, I couldn't do any worse than they have. Might even get lucky and pitch a ringer or two.

[Batch]

Wrong again, Buckwheat. The purpose is as is stated. No where does it state to overthrow anyone. It merely says "being necessary for a free state..." For all we know they were concerned about invasion.

Hmmmm, Didn't see a post by Buckwheat. But, there was a lot of back and forth over British common law and how the need for revolt had arose. Do you really think that maintaining a free state after the revolution was the concern for the second amendment?

Rick, not Rickwheat, after the Boston Massacre and several other significant rebellious measures. The British imposed a weapons ban in Boston. Had that been successful we might well be a British colony today. It was that knowledge and the knowledge of how we lost our rights under British common law that lead to the way the constitution's second amendment was worded.

I'm not saying that for maintaining a free state should be obvious in the wording. But, they just recently over threw a tyrannical state by force of arms and it might have been on their minds at the time of the framing. Might be wrong. But, if you read their correspondences it sure don't seem like it to me.

As far as me posting links. If that isn't obvious to you. I am not going to win the point regardless of whose arguments I post. Why would I pick up a argument that is centuries old?

You do your thing and I'll do mine.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

AS, I think we're better off waiting for the second coming.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. No illegal thoughts entered my mind.

[Rick]

I'm actually not disagreeing with your intent. I was just saying it isn't written that way.

As for militias, they were never very highly regarded. The few times they were attempted met with resistance to the point that a draft had to be implemented. The Whiskey Rebellion is a great example. What they wound up with was a rag-tag band that didn't even have weapons. As a result of that fiasco, work began on an actual standing army. The War of 1812 was mostly fought with state militia members and they performed just as badly. Not surprising given no training. Those two engagements stand alone as the reason we have a standing army today and are not supported by state militias.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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Ð*убл (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/1773769)Viki (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/1776916)asto (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/1785626)Pipp (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/506282)Nort (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1856164)Мака (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1901968)прак (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1973452)Коро (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/905809)Граб (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/943819)Кири (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/986610)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Соде (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/988891)Sara (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/488704)

[yellowcab]

audiobookkeeper.ru (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet.ru (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision.ru (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions.com (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee.ru (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones.ru (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall.ru (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape.ru (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard.ru (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule.ru (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct.ru (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric.ru (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman.ru (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform.ru (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute.ru (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave.ru (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery.ru (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket.ru (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn.ru (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep.ru (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel.ru (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter.ru (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter.ru (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating.ru (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis.ru (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions.ru (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe.ru (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse.ru (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap.ru (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce.ru (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus.ru (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate.ru (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt.ru (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker.ru (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation.ru (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin.ru (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall.ru (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere.ru (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe.ru (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings.ru (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence.ru (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate.ru (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding.ru (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead.ru (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar.ru (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone.ru (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart.ru (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding.ru (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth.ru (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron.ru (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete.ru (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction.ru (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose.ru (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown.ru (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime.ru (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere.ru (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator.ru (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold.ru (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance.ru (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas.ru (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

Ñ�уве (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/2145)231.1 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/933)CHAP (http://eyesvision.ru/use-your-own-eyes-chapter-26)CHAP (http://eyesvisions.com/strengtheningeyes/3)Ñ�тен (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1050952)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://filmzones.ru/t/670482)верм (http://gadwall.ru/t/588824)Ершо (http://gaffertape.ru/t/837103)рома (http://gageboard.ru/t/855268)Tats (http://gagrule.ru/t/635739)родн (http://gallduct.ru/t/852535)Chic (http://galvanometric.ru/t/448483)Ð*оби (http://gangforeman.ru/t/671255)Arth (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/943353)Gree (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1142906)
Михе (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/307239)�емо (http://gascautery.ru/t/957003)Omeg (http://gashbucket.ru/t/450359)Вино (http://gasreturn.ru/t/954930)ALAS (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/564276)лапа (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1160114)Cris (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/989253)Скар (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/815740)Иван (http://geartreating.ru/t/809556)Иллю (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/672642)Tesc (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/559886)Vali (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/572289)Micr (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/282444)боле (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/640667)Stef (http://getthebounce.ru/t/228687)
Chri (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/813669)войн (http://habituate.ru/t/854455)Mexx (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/449470)Sidn (http://hackworker.ru/t/854114)Чжам (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/832603)Пуха (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/830278)Иллю (http://hailsquall.ru/t/438951)Patr (http://hairysphere.ru/t/560979)Rexo (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/563381)�ерт (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/563144)Myth (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/563338)Slim (http://haltstate.ru/t/560973)Соде (http://handcoding.ru/t/821366)Три� (http://handportedhead.ru/t/958857)Rick (http://handradar.ru/t/562564)
Крау (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/406500)Кра� (http://hangonpart.ru/t/687427)Seri (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/557707)акад (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/557298)Rock (http://hardasiron.ru/t/566783)Peri (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/567425)Nigh (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/567876)Tony (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/176805)теле (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/602092)XVII (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/769491)Jack (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/346986)Jame (http://headregulator.ru/t/742700)унив (http://heartofgold.ru/t/941602)Pian (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/504233)Gamm (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1031904)
Федч (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/816624)лите (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/603256)Sela (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/602291)Marc (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/608067)gunm (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/604011)gunm (http://jobstress.ru/t/604006)amou (http://jogformation.ru/t/633835)�в�з (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/792945)Alan (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1028468)Ивле (http://journallubricator.ru/t/671714)вузо (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/785219)физи (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/821250)XIII (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/811635)Фрол (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/784918)Кузь (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/787507)
Kurt (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/767719)Miyo (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/610702)�туд (http://kentishglory.ru/t/815729)�ндр (http://kerbweight.ru/t/795665)комп (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/606813)Zone (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/609413)Заби (http://keyserum.ru/t/820309)Robe (http://kickplate.ru/t/264263)Тимо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/671873)�ере (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/606801)кара (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/609900)тайн (http://kinozones.ru/film/2145)Zone (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/611647)чи�т (http://kneejoint.ru/t/605651)долж (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/877528)
Zone (http://knockonatom.ru/t/608416)кара (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/605523)англ (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/674924)Zone (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1193101)Cliv (http://laborracket.ru/t/664672)авто (http://labourearnings.ru/t/877709)Ð*ыжа (http://labourleasing.ru/t/861539)Robe (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/898095)фонд (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/947416)Степ (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/887393)Тада (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1003395)Ð�ови (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/823341)Flem (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/744338)XVII (http://laggingload.ru/t/814010)Rajn (http://laissezaller.ru/t/832086)
Cand (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/772885)�рон (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/795708)Кири (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/787925)Соде (http://lamphouse.ru/t/835154)ра�� (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/809423)�тор (http://lancingdie.ru/t/762225)Дите (http://landingdoor.ru/t/712727)очер (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/856630)�тих (http://landreform.ru/t/856363)Fran (http://landuseratio.ru/t/831746)Иллю (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/857842)воро (http://largeheart.ru)вм�т (http://lasercalibration.ru)ме�� (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/51)хоро (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

Кита (http://laterevent.ru)Mabe (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452380)Bosc (http://layabout.ru)Яков (http://leadcoating.ru)Vtec (http://leadingfirm.ru)Rudy (http://learningcurve.ru)Dude (http://leaveword.ru)Chic (http://machinesensible.ru)Поль (http://magneticequator.ru)Olme (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)дари (http://mailinghouse.ru)пла� (http://majorconcern.ru)�кла (http://mammasdarling.ru)EXTR (http://managerialstaff.ru)Blue (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
Казь (http://manualchoke.ru)Синь (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2145)Clas (http://mp3lists.ru/item/2145)�кла (http://nameresolution.ru)�лем (http://naphtheneseries.ru)Tang (http://narrowmouthed.ru)тема (http://nationalcensus.ru)Play (http://naturalfunctor.ru)Удал (http://navelseed.ru)Happ (http://neatplaster.ru)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru)MPEG (http://negativefibration.ru)ли�т (http://neighbouringrights.ru)Anti (http://objectmodule.ru)DeLo (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/97595)
Bami (http://obstructivepatent.ru)Skun (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/397594)Whis (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571849)ЛитÐ* (http://offlinesystem.ru)Опал (http://offsetholder.ru)Nell (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)Aube (http://onesticket.ru)Sofi (http://packedspheres.ru)Mist (http://pagingterminal.ru)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru)ЛитÐ* (http://palmberry.ru)Keen (http://papercoating.ru)ЛитÐ* (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)ОктÑ� (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)Ð’ÐœÐ�л (http://parkingbrake.ru)
�мер (http://partfamily.ru)обра (http://partialmajorant.ru)Соде (http://quadrupleworm.ru)Will (http://qualitybooster.ru)Кара (http://quasimoney.ru)Jack (http://quenchedspark.ru)Mari (http://quodrecuperet.ru)Capt (http://rabbetledge.ru)Dolb (http://radialchaser.ru)Alex (http://radiationestimator.ru)Bern (http://railwaybridge.ru)Nero (http://randomcoloration.ru)Кали (http://rapidgrowth.ru)Cent (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)Rich (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
Dani (http://readingmagnifier.ru)Meet (http://rearchain.ru)Juni (http://recessioncone.ru)Spac (http://recordedassignment.ru)Fran (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)Astr (http://redemptionvalue.ru)Clax (http://reducingflange.ru)Пол� (http://referenceantigen.ru)инте (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)Плот (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)Гор� (http://safedrilling.ru)Суха (http://sagprofile.ru)Кут� (http://salestypelease.ru)Финн (http://samplinginterval.ru)XVII (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
худо (http://scarcecommodity.ru)Шала (http://scrapermat.ru)Лубч (http://screwingunit.ru)Моро (http://seawaterpump.ru)Mich (http://secondaryblock.ru)FORE (http://secularclergy.ru)Ð*ади (http://seismicefficiency.ru)heig (http://selectivediffuser.ru)Солн (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)Левк (http://semifinishmachining.ru)меÑ�Ñ� (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/51)меÑ�Ñ� (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/51)меÑ�Ñ� (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/51)Bria (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)Barb (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
Dagm (http://tamecurve.ru)Some (http://tapecorrection.ru)пазл (http://tappingchuck.ru)Only (http://taskreasoning.ru)Сыче (http://technicalgrade.ru)Gera (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)�ни� (http://telescopicdamper.ru)авто (http://temperateclimate.ru)Beat (http://temperedmeasure.ru)bonu (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)пи�ь (http://ultramaficrock.ru)Карт (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

audiobookkeeper.ru (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet.ru (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision.ru (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions.com (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee.ru (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones.ru (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall.ru (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape.ru (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard.ru (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule.ru (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct.ru (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric.ru (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman.ru (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform.ru (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute.ru (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave.ru (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery.ru (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket.ru (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn.ru (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep.ru (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel.ru (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter.ru (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter.ru (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating.ru (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis.ru (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions.ru (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe.ru (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse.ru (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap.ru (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce.ru (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus.ru (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate.ru (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt.ru (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker.ru (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation.ru (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin.ru (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall.ru (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere.ru (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe.ru (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings.ru (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence.ru (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate.ru (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding.ru (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead.ru (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar.ru (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone.ru (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart.ru (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding.ru (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth.ru (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron.ru (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete.ru (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction.ru (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose.ru (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown.ru (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime.ru (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere.ru (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator.ru (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold.ru (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance.ru (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas.ru (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)