View Full Version : Firearm mishap!
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-18-2010, 04:01 PM
Yesterday evening I was doing some plinking at cans. First I shot the pistols but then out came the Remington 870 express super magnum...The loads were Fiochii Steel shot. MAX Dram Equiv. 1470 Velocity 1 9/16 Oz. #1 shot. On the third shot all I could hear was ringing in my ears and cold blood running from my arm. Still am not sure what happened. The round breached the chamber and the full blast excited the ejection slot. The trigger frame exited out of the receiver.
Here is the round and the subsequent peices after the blast.
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af330/COWBOYSURVIVAL/DSCN2578.jpg
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af330/COWBOYSURVIVAL/DSCN2577.jpg
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af330/COWBOYSURVIVAL/DSCN2584.jpg
Here is the lot from the same 2 boxes...
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af330/COWBOYSURVIVAL/DSCN2574.jpg
Something isn't quite right about some of them...
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af330/COWBOYSURVIVAL/DSCN2575.jpg
I'll post the gun after I put it back together.. Any ideas wtf happened...ring...:tongue_smilie:
I never found or fealt any shot or wadding from this round? But it did not exit the business end of the shell, it is still crimped.
canid
04-18-2010, 04:13 PM
i'd say the brass just plain failed. that's really all it takes to let the gas out the wrong end.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-18-2010, 04:18 PM
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af330/COWBOYSURVIVAL/DSCN2585.jpg
Canid, I think there is more to it, but can't explain it. Where did the shot and wadding go?
canid
04-18-2010, 04:27 PM
out one end or the other, clearly.
Justin Case
04-18-2010, 04:57 PM
I would send those pics to Remington and the shell manufacturer if I were you,
Are those factory loads ? They look a little weird .
Justin Case
04-18-2010, 05:50 PM
So the "shot" end of the shell didn't open ? WOW,, That is strange ? where did the shot and wad go ??? Thats a very good question Cowboy ,,,
2dumb2kwit
04-18-2010, 06:02 PM
Dang...that's scary. Glad you're OK.
After the mis-hap, was the bolt still locked in place, or was it open?
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-18-2010, 06:11 PM
Dang...that's scary. Glad you're OK.
After the mis-hap, was the bolt still locked in place, or was it open?
It was half open. The brass rim of the shell was ejected out of the chamber and appears to have ricochet off of my pool and hit my arm. Almost cause for stitches. I will be sending the gun to remington and fiochii will also be contacted. Since i cannot locate the wad or any shot. I kinda think it was a defective load maybe double filled with powder the bang was deafening to say the least. Other than some hearing loss and a one inch cut in my arm I am fine.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-18-2010, 06:12 PM
I would send those pics to Remington and the shell manufacturer if I were you,
Are those factory loads ? They look a little weird .
Yes factory loads from Fiochii in Ozark Missouri.
I wonder if that one even had wad and shot? In any case, I'm glad you're okay. One more reason for safety glasses and hearing protection I guess. You just never know. I'd contact both manufacturers too.
rwc1969
04-18-2010, 06:55 PM
boy, that sure is messed up.
crashdive123
04-18-2010, 06:58 PM
Glad you're OK.
hunter63
04-18-2010, 07:01 PM
Just plain spooky and glad your OK. As an 870 fan, am very interested in what you eventually find out.
I agree, I have shot rusted brass, that split, and had to be pounded out of the breach, but never had one "blow the bolt open?????"
Almost looks like the bolt didn't latch????
Any way let us know what you find out, glad you are O.K.
This could have been waaaay more than scary.
2dumb2kwit
04-18-2010, 07:13 PM
I agree, I have shot rusted brass, that split, and had to be pounded out of the breach, but never had one "blow the bolt open?????"
Almost looks like the bolt didn't latch????Any way let us know what you find out, glad you are O.K.
This could have been waaaay more than scary.
That's kinda what I was wondering......if the bolt wasn't closed when it fired, and the shell wasn't all the way in the chamber.....Hmmmmm, that still doesn't explain the other end of the shell not being opened.
I'd really like to know what the experts say.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-18-2010, 07:14 PM
I agree, I have shot rusted brass, that split, and had to be pounded out of the breach, but never had one "blow the bolt open?????"
Almost looks like the bolt didn't latch????
Any way let us know what you find out, glad you are O.K.
This could have been waaaay more than scary.
Hunter,
I have owned and shot 870's for just shy of 30 years. I pull the gun into my shoulder using the foregrip before firing (very consciously with this 3 1/2" stuff) so I can say with some confidence it was latched. I also took my other 'older' 870 out and tried to dry fire it with the chamber just a hair open, nothing...the firing pin will not fire. But yeah if guys have any idea where I screwed up I sure want to hear it. Here is my theory...I priced the trigger assembly in case it is on me to replace it (I doubt it, pretty sure Remington will make good on it) Well they sell 2, one is plastic like mine the other is aluminum and is marketed as police issue. I think the plastic failed. That said this is my duck gun and is 7 years old. It will have the aluminum trigger assembly this time! Funny they sell plastic to the general public and aluminum to the police? I have put probably close to 1000 rounds thru it of the 3 1/2" stuff. The stuff is brutal on me and I am sure it is the same for the gun. One other thought I had is maybe just maybe the wadding didn't clear the barrell from the previous round???
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-18-2010, 07:18 PM
One other thing I noticed the primer case was a tad rusted...the others in the same lot weren't. I may have dropped this one in the boat and got it damp...what problems are associated with a damp or even wet shell that had since dried?
red lake
04-18-2010, 07:26 PM
does brass rust??
Justin Case
04-18-2010, 07:27 PM
does brass rust??
No, But the steel primer seat does.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-18-2010, 07:28 PM
does brass rust??
It is evidentally not a brass primer case...I am not refering to the shell brass, rather the primer case.
hunter63
04-18-2010, 07:41 PM
does brass rust??
Well, boys, I don't know how to tell ya, but a LOT of "The Brass" these days is really coated steel, in a lot of cases.
Try a magnet on it.
How do I know?, Rusted the crap out of 2 boxes of 3-1/2 in steel shot (high buck) Remington, that I left in my duck hunting coat.
I have fired several of these, split the "brass" and did have to take off the barrel, and pound out the shell.
Tossed a bunch away, at the Police dept.
I still think the breach/latch failed as the shell is still crimped, and everything came out the back.
BTW, CBS I don't think you did anything wrong, I think something was defective.
I heard bad things about Fiochii .410 shells, but this is really something.
Justin Case
04-18-2010, 07:47 PM
Sounds Reasonable to me,, BTW, I did a search on the web for this problem, couldn't find anything ,, just a lot of spent shells getting stuck in 870's,
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-18-2010, 07:54 PM
Well, boys, I don't know how to tell ya, but a LOT of "The Brass" these days is really coated steel, in a lot of cases.
Try a magnet on it.
How do I know?, Rusted the crap out of 2 boxes of 3-1/2 in steel shot (high buck) Remington, that I left in my duck hunting coat.
I have fired several of these, split the "brass" and did have to take off the barrel, and pound out the shell.
Tossed a bunch away, at the Police dept.
I still think the breach/latch failed as the shell is still crimped, and everything came out the back.
BTW, CBS I don't think you did anything wrong, I think something was defective.
I heard bad things about Fiochii .410 shells, but this is really something.
Thanks for the info...and thoughts. I agree with you on your points. I'd feel better about it if I caused it at least then I could adjust to correct and move on. As it is I ain't sure I am messing with the 3 1/2" stuff anymore. I'll be leary of plastic on a gun too! I'll update this post with what Remington has to say.
hunter63
04-18-2010, 09:14 PM
Just went thru my shell bag, so I ask y'all, would you shoot these?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/DSCF0117.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/DSCF0118.jpg
These weren't so bad, I shoot them...................
Justin Case
04-18-2010, 09:18 PM
I guess the primer seats aren't steel ? as I said earlier,, My Bad :blushing: copper or Aluminum ?
2dumb2kwit
04-18-2010, 09:31 PM
Just went thru my shell bag, so I ask y'all, would you shoot these?
Well....I do shoot old surplus 7.62x25. Some of that stuff is pretty scary.:innocent: LOL
welderguy
04-18-2010, 10:42 PM
I looked thru some reloading stuff after I read this post because I remembered reading something awhile back about a single barreled shot gun blowing up in the shooters face due to improperly reloaded shot shells, since I don't remember exactly what the mistake was I wont guess , and I wasn't able to find that reference on the disk , but ill keep looking.
welderguy
04-18-2010, 11:08 PM
I found the reference I was looking for , a 3.50 magnum shell was loaded and crimped to 2.75 inch and the crimp failed to open properly causing a backfire blowing the breech of the single barreled shotgun.
I don't think this would apply in this case because the shotty you were using should handle the 12ga 3.50 ?
Well I wasn't much help sorry. I do hope your injuries are minor and Remington fixes the shotty for ya.
Swamprat1958
04-19-2010, 12:18 PM
I would contact Remington and the shell manufacturer to see if they could help. An 870 is supposed handle anything, mine is 22 years old and has been used and abused duck hunting and it has never had a problem.
tsitenha
04-19-2010, 02:58 PM
Keep some of those shells back before sending the rest to the amo manufacturer.
Take pictures a lot of pictures from all possible angles for your files.
Contact Ken.
Is it possible that the crimp collaspsed back onto itself due to counter recoil after the shot was fired (kind of along of a backdraft in a fire), as the back end of the shell blew out and ripped off the rim as it was being sucked back toward the opened breech?
Alaskan Survivalist
04-19-2010, 03:31 PM
I would take the whole thing to an attorney and let the cause be determined by experts. Don't tamper with the evidence. There could be money in it. As a "Doomer" I see the whole world fighting over the corpse of this dieing world to get all they can. Moraly it is the same as food storage. Get it while you can.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-19-2010, 03:56 PM
Keep some of those shells back before sending the rest to the amo manufacturer.
Take pictures a lot of pictures from all possible angles for your files.
Contact Ken.
Is it possible that the crimp collaspsed back onto itself due to counter recoil after the shot was fired (kind of along of a backdraft in a fire), as the back end of the shell blew out and ripped off the rim as it was being sucked back toward the opened breech?
I do think it is possible your possible conclusion could happen. Lets say the wad from the previous shot did not exit the barrel so when I shot the last shot the gun was effectively plugged? I guess it could return the crimp to folded inward and it would also explain the fact that I couldn't find the wad from the last shot where I found the rest of the shell parts which were on the ground where I was standing. I'll walk some more this evening and see if I can account for all 3 wads down range.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
04-19-2010, 04:20 PM
I would take the whole thing to an attorney and let the cause be determined by experts. Don't tamper with the evidence. There could be money in it. As a "Doomer" I see the whole world fighting over the corpse of this dieing world to get all they can. Moraly it is the same as food storage. Get it while you can.
I can't say I agree with your sentiment. I do respect your opinion though. Me I figure somebody needs to fix my gun and I'll be happy. I guess I realize after nearly 30 yrs. of firearms it was entirely possible something could eventually go wrong. I am still healthy and if I have to buy a $100 aluminum trigger to fix my gun then so be it. As with alot of my hobbies I realize there is risk in alot of things I do. On another note I have always been a bit of a "motor head" always wanted bigger, more powerful, toys. I think it may be time for me to reflect on that. I did alot of hunting and had alot of success with the 2 3/4" stuff.
Alaskan Survivalist
04-19-2010, 04:26 PM
I can't say I agree with your sentiment. I do respect your opinion though. Me I figure somebody needs to fix my gun and I'll be happy. I guess I realize after nearly 30 yrs. of firearms it was entirely possible something could eventually go wrong. I am still healthy and if I have to buy a $100 aluminum trigger to fix my gun then so be it. As with alot of my hobbies I realize there is risk in alot of things I do. On another note I have always been a bit of a "motor head" always wanted bigger, more powerful, toys. I think it may be time for me to reflect on that. I did alot of hunting and had alot of success with the 2 3/4" stuff.
I'm often conflicted and don't agree with my own sentiments. That said, I completely agree about more is not always better and have seen many products developed beyond any practical application. Good thing to think about.
Ole WV Coot
04-19-2010, 05:29 PM
Sure like to know myself. Crimps don't look right and never shot steel much. Bad load, and don't look like it closed either. I trust the gun, don't like the looks of the shells. I am betting on a bad load.
Camp10
04-19-2010, 05:37 PM
I'm glad it didnt get you to bad Cowboy! I kind of have to go with the group here and bet that it is a bad shell. I've seen a single shot blown apart because of a handload that had a second helping of powder. I own the 870's in every gauge they make them in and have never had any troubles. I also will be waiting to hear what they find.
tsitenha
04-23-2010, 04:58 PM
Any word on what you found?
SARKY
04-25-2010, 11:57 PM
I would also think about contacting a lawyer as well.
Justin Case
05-23-2010, 08:58 AM
I have been kinda wondering how Cowboy S is making out with Remington ? any word yet CS ?
canid
05-23-2010, 11:12 AM
Thanks for the info...and thoughts. I agree with you on your points. I'd feel better about it if I caused it at least then I could adjust to correct and move on. As it is I ain't sure I am messing with the 3 1/2" stuff anymore. I'll be leary of plastic on a gun too! I'll update this post with what Remington has to say.
look into season cracking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_cracking)
one of the causes of this is natural fatigue where residual stresses remain in the cartridge, or other brass item as it ages. another is stress corrosion cracking, where the same process is compounded by corrosion from contact with certain materials in projectile powders and primer compounds.
i don't see any reason to expect [hope, but not assume] that the gun was designed to cope with the sudden escape of hot gas into the reciever.
when fired, the bolt/carrier assembly is only supposed to arrest the linear force of the shell casing pushing against it, not a flood of superheated [in fact, still burning] gas, which might easily be enough to cause the bolt locking mechanism to fail. since some of the vital parts of the firing components [namely, the trigger assembly] are plastic, that is exactly where i would expect to see a failure under those circumstances, and thus, where much of the gas might escape [which it looks like it did].
by all means, i would certainly be sure to figure out exactly what failed and why, but remember; old/defective cartridges can fail, and cartridge failures can destroy a firearm and kill or maim the shooter or bystanders. it's the reason every firearm manual states explicitly that you should never fire questionable ammo, inspect all ammo for defects or corrosion before shooting and never shoot ammo that exceeds the maximum recommended cartridge pressure.
kyratshooter
05-23-2010, 04:26 PM
I have seen this before With both 870 and Mossburg pumps. The situation I saw was the failure of the lock bolt to cam into the lug in the top of the reciever. When the gun fired it was essentually in the unlocked position, blowing the bolt back and venting the entire load contents out the ejection port. In both cases the shot gun was totaled.
A couple of the cases was extreme wear, the other was parts failure. In none of the cases would having the pump shuttle held foreward have made any diference.
The brass on shotshells is for decoration and tradition. The plastic alone gives all the integrity they really need. When I was in the army we were issued all plastic shells with screw in top wads made by the old Herters Co. These were super magnum (by todays standards) 00 buck. Even the rim was plastic. They worked fine and were well suited to the damp climate we were in.
If anything seeped into the shell and affected the powder it would have probably killed the primer first.
This will end up being a gun problem. If you check the specs on proof loads for 12ga you will find there is not much of a way any mfg can "overload" a shell and exceed the proof limit and still crimp the case.
Justin Case
05-23-2010, 05:34 PM
I have seen this before With both 870 and Mossburg pumps. The situation I saw was the failure of the lock bolt to cam into the lug in the top of the reciever. When the gun fired it was essentually in the unlocked position, blowing the bolt back and venting the entire load contents out the ejection port. In both cases the shot gun was totaled.
A couple of the cases was extreme wear, the other was parts failure. In none of the cases would having the pump shuttle held foreward have made any diference.
The brass on shotshells is for decoration and tradition. The plastic alone gives all the integrity they really need. When I was in the army we were issued all plastic shells with screw in top wads made by the old Herters Co. These were super magnum (by todays standards) 00 buck. Even the rim was plastic. They worked fine and were well suited to the damp climate we were in.
If anything seeped into the shell and affected the powder it would have probably killed the primer first.
This will end up being a gun problem. If you check the specs on proof loads for 12ga you will find there is not much of a way any mfg can "overload" a shell and exceed the proof limit and still crimp the case.
This is what I think happened too.
Justin Case
06-23-2010, 08:51 AM
Any news about your 870 Cowboy ?
COWBOYSURVIVAL
01-15-2011, 08:09 AM
Update-
Dad visited for Christmas and took time to give everything a good once over. I had told him what i told ya'll and he had picked a few brains and is essentially a gun smith himself. His first question was had the load in question ever gotten wet. My reply was suppose it could have. Going back about 8 yrs. ago I was a duck hunting machine (before I became a full time Mom and Dad) since my duckhunting has been very sparse. So that leaves us with 100's of 8 yr. old rounds, some of which had been for a ride in the boat. So we pulled the shrapnel from the bag as I had saved it and sure enough the primer showed signs of rust. I then pulled all of the shells from that mfg. and no rust on any others. We examined the latch and the barrel latch keeper and there was no wear or damage. Dad's conclusion is the steel shot rusted over the 8 yrs and essentially became a rusted slug. To test his synopsis I have soaked a shell in the same tanic acid I most likely dropped the shell in and will cut it open sometime in the future to "see".
SARKY
01-15-2011, 08:28 PM
I am assuming that you have already checked the barrel and it is clear? Normally if the barrel is plugged the barrel ruptures (path of least resistance) not the bolt unlocking.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
01-15-2011, 08:33 PM
I am assuming that you have already checked the barrel and it is clear? Normally if the barrel is plugged the barrel ruptures (path of least resistance) not the bolt unlocking.
First thing I did Sarky...I have cocluded it didn't clog the barrel but didn't exit easily.
oldtrap59
01-16-2011, 02:35 AM
I guess I missed this thread first time around . No expert comment to make . Just that I own an 870 that's probably older then a large number of the forum members and have never had any trouble with it. (wingmaster mag) I do realize though there's a big difference between the 3.5" loads discussed in this thread and the 3" loads I use in my gun. If my memory serves me the gun was bought the fall of 1961. Anyway many many rounds ago and many good times. Still shoots well when I take it out to do some wing shooting up on the river each year.
Oldtrap
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-09-2011, 06:13 PM
Well....I broke down and bought the police issue aluminum trigger assembly from Remington $100. Should be here anyday. Will post pics of her new look and new trigger assembly.
crashdive123
08-09-2011, 07:30 PM
When I read the title and saw it was from you, the first thought that went through my head was --- AGAIN?
(Chuckle) Yeah, I was thinking AD+2.............
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-09-2011, 08:15 PM
Nope, I think it was once in a lifetime....When you work like I do and raise a lively little girl and livestock as long as one 870 still works....you wait.
Winter
08-09-2011, 08:29 PM
First I've seen of this story. That's crazy CS. No shot is really weird.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-09-2011, 09:11 PM
I didn't blame Remington or Fiochi. I didn't even contact them. I bought a plastic trigger assembly though it was unknowingly....I equate that to a dumas mistake, knowing how hard I use a shotgun during duck season.
The trigger assembly didn't fail in one place but multiple places. In the next day or two. ...I will have my excellent 870. She just got saddled with my 21" slug barrel and 5 X 9 Scope. Still waiting on my aluminum trigger assembly, which is a police design. One thing though, it won't have the queer green key to keep up with. So, roughly 300$ bucks for the gun 300$ bucks for the 21" rifled barell. 100$ for the aluminum trigger assembly. About 100$ for the scope and mount. 20$ for the packmeyer recoil pad. So I got $ 820 in it. I have 3 interchangeable barrels Iron sights or a scope. See ya in the deer woods!
Whew. I thought he was gonna say, "See ya in the woods, dear."
Winter
08-09-2011, 10:16 PM
Remington has a plastic factory trigger group?
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-09-2011, 10:27 PM
Remington has a plastic factory trigger group?
The trigger group hasn't changed since the 60"s except they made the frame out of plastic....
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-10-2011, 06:54 PM
Update...
Ordered direct from Remington on 8/6 it had a label created for UPS today 8/10...guess they had to make a metal one.:whistling:
Do you have any idea just how long it takes for 0s and 1s to travel through the internet? All it takes is one 1 to signal left and go right and then servers starting crashing everywhere. The whole thing is a modern miracle.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-10-2011, 07:15 PM
Do you have any idea just how long it takes for 0s and 1s to travel through the internet? All it takes is one 1 to signal left and go right and then servers starting crashing everywhere. The whole thing is a modern miracle.
01010101010101010000101111101010101010100010010010 1011111010101010000000
Bet you get it within 2 minutes......:smartass:
I get the "2 cases of beer" part but why did you call me that? I'm more of a 110001110
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-10-2011, 07:22 PM
I get the "2 cases of beer" part but why did you call me that? I'm more of a 110001110
There you go using binary logic again....Try this for logic. Cowboy needs a trigger, Cowboy ordered said trigger...Cowboy should have trigger sooner than later. It really is simple.
You should have said that in the first place. By the way, have they sent you that trigger yet?
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-10-2011, 07:52 PM
You should have said that in the first place. By the way, have they sent you that trigger yet?
Probably got picked up by UPS today or maybe tomrrow so then what 3 days? Guess ya'll will have to wait for the pics with the slugger barrel and scope I got saddled on her, but then I'll have to take it to the range all the way out back. I need someone to take the first shot you know just in case.....
Let's see. Hmmm. Looking for volunteers. No, no, I don't see any hands going up.
crashdive123
08-10-2011, 08:25 PM
What? No neighbors that go by Mikey?
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-11-2011, 11:22 PM
The old Duck gun has a new place in the bunker....
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af330/COWBOYSURVIVAL/DSCN3711.jpg
The Police Trigger assembly married right up and I think the scope and slug barrel will do fine at the range tomorrow!
Sparky93
08-12-2011, 12:55 AM
Man, that looks slicker than a harpooned hippo on a banana tree.
Nice job on the shotgun, CS.
Sparky, I'm having some trouble getting my mind around that one.
Sparky93
08-12-2011, 09:31 AM
Nice job on the shotgun, CS.
Sparky, I'm having some trouble getting my mind around that one.
With whatever you measure slickness with, slicker than a harpooned hippo up a banana tree is one slickness level more than slicker than snot on a door knob....
oldsoldier
08-12-2011, 10:18 AM
Hunter the most important thing is that your okay. Several years ago I had an old 870 that tended to blow open with "hot" loads. It ended up being a weak lock when you chambered a round if you didn't basically slam the bolt it would not latch completely and would slip loose if you were not careful. When it did on occasion the shell would kick back and jam the breech. Maybe yours has a similar issue.
Batch
08-13-2011, 12:12 PM
With whatever you measure slickness with, slicker than a harpooned hippo up a banana tree is one slickness level more than slicker than snot on a door knob....
Still not sure if it is slicker than owl shift on a linoleum floor or not though.
I can attest as can many of my coworkers that spray silicone on a truck seat is pretty darn slick. I found myself in the floor between the two seats after I hopped into my truck that had been freshly sprayed (without my knowledge). While many of the guys thought it funny I failed to see the humor in it. Stop it. I saw you smile.
I'm sure Coot will vouch for this, too. Switch lube is, without doubt, the slickest stuff on the planet. I have no idea what it's made of but you can't snap your fingers or pick your nose with that stuff on your fingers (or pick up anything for that matter). It's black/green and just slimy slick. It's pretty funny when a light bead of it is placed around the receiver on a supervisor's telephone, too. Not that I had any part of that.
COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-13-2011, 05:36 PM
Sounds like some switch lube would work well on this really long action gun. On another note has anyone mounted a sling on one these Remington composite stocks? I added a sling to my older wooden stock and would like to do the same on this one.
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