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BENESSE
04-15-2010, 07:04 PM
If you believe this to be true, does the equation work on a global scale?
If every country in the world had nuclear weapons at their disposal, would it make for a "more polite" world?

2dumb2kwit
04-15-2010, 07:15 PM
If you believe this to be true, does the equation work on a global scale?
If every country in the world had nuclear weapons at their disposal, would it make for a "more polite" world?

Yes and no. In both cases, you try to keep weapons out of the hands of nutjobs.:innocent:

Pal334
04-15-2010, 07:19 PM
I believe it does. However, I would also say that all nukes should just be outlawed, banned / destroyed on a world scale. I know that is not a realistic thought, but just how much "power" does anyone or nation need?
To me an armed society would equate to a prepared society. If you are prepared then others would be less likely to take advantage of you.

2dumb2kwit
04-15-2010, 07:22 PM
If you believe this to be true, does the equation work on a global scale?
If every country in the world had nuclear weapons at their disposal, would it make for a "more polite" world?

Where you run into trouble, is when you tell the crazies "Don't worry...we won't use our superior weapons on you, if you attack us." WTF!?!?!:blushing:

Ken
04-15-2010, 07:23 PM
2dumb's got guns, I've got guns.............

All's been polite and peaceful so far, ain't it? :innocent:

BENESSE
04-15-2010, 07:24 PM
Yes and no. In both cases, you try to keep weapons out of the hands of nutjobs.:innocent:

The popular belief is that criminals and nutjobs (=rogue countries) will always find a way to obtain guns (nukes) illegally.
I am floating the idea about letting everyone else own a gun (nuke).

BENESSE
04-15-2010, 07:27 PM
2dumb's got guns, I've got guns.............

All's been polite and peaceful so far, ain't it? :innocent:

Thanks to certain mods.:sneaky2:

Ken
04-15-2010, 07:27 PM
The popular belief is that criminals and nutjobs (=rogue countries) will always find a way to obtain guns (nukes) illegally.
I am floating the idea about letting everyone else own a gun (nuke).

The thing is, we TRY to keep criminals and nutjobs AWAY from guns.

Ken
04-15-2010, 07:28 PM
Thanks to certain mods.:sneaky2:

What are you sayin' about 2dumb? :innocent:

2dumb2kwit
04-15-2010, 07:33 PM
The popular belief is that criminals and nutjobs (=rogue countries) will always find a way to obtain guns (nukes) illegally.
I am floating the idea about letting everyone else own a gun (nuke).

I have mixed feelings, about it. I don't like the idea of telling others what they can, and can't do in their own country/home. The trick to that, is that others must know that your are able and willing to defend yourself.

Justin Case
04-15-2010, 07:33 PM
The Strongest Kid in the Playground doesnt have to be polite ,,,, just sayin/

BENESSE
04-15-2010, 07:38 PM
I have mixed feelings, about it. I don't like the idea of telling others what they can, and can't do in their own country/home. The trick to that, is that others must know that your are able and willing to defend yourself.

But we ARE and always have.
All I'm asking is...would the same argument used in favor of gun ownership in this country work on a global scale?

BENESSE
04-15-2010, 07:39 PM
The Strongest Kid in the Playground doesnt have to be polite ,,,, just sayin/

He does if the other kids have box cutters.

Ken
04-15-2010, 07:45 PM
Here's the list of nations with nukes. Besides us, there's only 2 others I feel good about.

United States
Russia
United Kingdom
France
China
India
Pakistan
North Korea
Israel

Ken
04-15-2010, 07:46 PM
But we ARE and always have.
All I'm asking is...would the same argument used in favor of gun ownership in this country work on a global scale?

Not a chance.

BENESSE
04-15-2010, 07:54 PM
Not a chance.

Why would it work on the national scale then?

Winnie
04-15-2010, 08:01 PM
I doubt it would. You only have to go back to post WW2. The Arms race prompted the Cold War. More arms = more paranoia = a far less friendly world. I have to agree with 2D that no one country should be telling others how to run theirs, but I also see nothing wrong in making it plain that you can defend your own.
If you're talking about individuals owning guns I think in some cases it would, others it wouldn't. A country that has pretty much law abiding citizens would possibly become a more polite society. But I don't think that would be true of the more lawless societies. It would probably make things worse.

Ken
04-15-2010, 08:03 PM
Why would it work on the national scale then?

The whole point is to keep guns OUT of the hands of criminals and crazies. I don't think anybody here has advocated handing out guns to folks as they get released from prison or an insane asylum.

If Canada or Australia had nukes I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep (regardless of the fact that Red Lake is Canadian). If Mexico or Venezuala got 'em, I'd toss and turn most nights.

The whole point is to keep firearms in the hands of stable and responsible people (most folks in the United States, IMHO) and nukes in the hands of stable and responsible nations - and there ain't all that many of them out there.

Alaskan Survivalist
04-15-2010, 08:46 PM
Here's a slogan for you "Free men don't need permission to own guns".

crashdive123
04-15-2010, 08:52 PM
One of the reasons that so many countries do not have nukes is that they have lived under the protective umbrella of the United States. I believe that some of those countries may be re-thinking that strategy. Many countries spent a pawltry amount (of GDP) on defense for that same reason. That smaller spending on defense has allowed some of those countries to focus on social programs - that too may be changing soon.

Camp10
04-15-2010, 09:00 PM
But we ARE and always have.
All I'm asking is...would the same argument used in favor of gun ownership in this country work on a global scale?

The only time a nuclear weapon was used was when only one nation (That would be us)had it....yes it would work on a global scale and it has.

That said, I agree with 2D and Ken in that the idea is to made sure that crazies are left unarmed. I doubt you could find to many pro-gun people that want to see criminals given the right to carry.

BENESSE
04-16-2010, 08:43 AM
The whole point is to keep guns OUT of the hands of criminals and crazies. I don't think anybody here has advocated handing out guns to folks as they get released from prison or an insane asylum.
True, but we aren't doing a very good job of it, are we? The criminals can easily obtain guns and the insane tend to fly under the rickety radar.
If Canada or Australia had nukes I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep (regardless of the fact that Red Lake is Canadian). If Mexico or Venezuala got 'em, I'd toss and turn most nights.
Agree.
The whole point is to keep firearms in the hands of stable and responsible people (most folks in the United States, IMHO) and nukes in the hands of stable and responsible nations - and there ain't all that many of them out there.
Sounds simple enough, if we say so ourselves. We are the good guys (most individuals and therefore the whole country), we know who the bad guys are most of the time (rogue nations), and then there's a vast number that can in any given year swing either way. What do you do with them and who decides on a global scale?


The question is, if our govt. decides (we really) who can and cannot own firearms (a system that most gun proponents aren't thrilled with) how can the same be enforced worldwide?
If it doesn't seem fair nationally, can it be fair internationally?
Are we resorting to the golden rule?

crashdive123
04-16-2010, 09:35 AM
The question is, if our govt. decides (we really) who can and cannot own firearms (a system that most gun proponents aren't thrilled with) how can the same be enforced worldwide?
If it doesn't seem fair nationally, can it be fair internationally?
Are we resorting to the golden rule?

The citizens of this country are protected by the Constitution. That same Constitution charges the government to protect the citizenry of this country. That may mean negotiating with others, treaties, or hostilities. While not perfect, it is a system that has worked.

BENESSE
04-16-2010, 11:55 AM
The citizens of this country are protected by the Constitution. That same Constitution charges the government to protect the citizenry of this country. That may mean negotiating with others, treaties, or hostilities. While not perfect, it is a system that has worked.

The system has miraculously worked but it hasn't evolved to address a very different world. The stakes are higher, our enemies and their means not so well defined, the target, ever-shifting. IMO, conducting business as usual is irresponsible.

2dumb2kwit
04-16-2010, 12:00 PM
The question is, if our govt. decides (we really) who can and cannot own firearms (a system that most gun proponents aren't thrilled with) how can the same be enforced worldwide?
If it doesn't seem fair nationally, can it be fair internationally?
Are we resorting to the golden rule?

You are comparing apples and oranges. Other countries having nukes is not the same as me having a gun. Yes I have the right to have a gun, but I can't have nukes......or bombs...etc. I can own a machine gun, but only after jumping through a bunch of hoops, and spending a lot of money. Even then I could only own certain one's. (Ones regestered years ago.) I can't have a new one, or import one.

So, you see....I'm not allowed to have simple things that most murdering dictators have plenty of.

Rick
04-17-2010, 12:26 AM
Another reason, of course, is the technical knowledge to actually build one. While the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) worked between the US and the USSR during the Cold War, the collapse of the Soviet Union placed the world in a precarious state because many of the USSR's nuclear program items were for sale; from scientists to enriched material. We may never know the extent of damage created by that act.

To provide every country in the world with nuclear weapons is a guarantee that at least one mad man winds up with a genie in a glass bottle. They will either decide to use it or sell it to someone that will use it.

IMO, there is a very large line that is crossed when a country obtains nuclear capability. Aside from the initial destructive capability, the quality of today's nuclear weapons will render ground 0 uninhabitable for a very long time. the A bomb of WWII and the A bomb of today are two entirely different animals.

Pict
04-17-2010, 09:58 AM
I had an interesting conversation with a Muslim Imam from the north of Pakistan. He had said that no culture could possibly handle the pressure of having automatic weapons freely accessible and that when such weapons flooded into his home area during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that everyone turned on his brother and started killing up there. His point, made very forcefully, was that nobody has the self control necessary to own such weapons personally and not use them to settle any and every argument or dispute that comes along.

It really bothered him to find out that a huge percentage of Americans own military grade weapons and we aren't shooting each other with them or settling our disputes by mowing down our neighbors. It left the STARK difference in culturally maturity very evident to him and he changed the subject rather quickly.

It is very PC and cozy to think that all cultures are equal, that is a very dangerous myth that will get a lot of people killed eventually. There are entire cultures in this world that "if they had a knife would only be happy when it is in the belly of their neighbor". That is in quotes because I'm quoting an Iraqi friend who was referring the Shiite/Sunni/Kurd problem of his homeland. Many cultures want "peace" but when you scratch the surface "peace" means the eradication of one or more people groups.

With firearms we universally set an age limit to determine when a person is mature enough to handle that kind of responsibility. On an international level there is no overarching governing authority to set such a limit on another culture.

Would the world be better off without nuclear weapons? We will never know, the cat is out of the bag, Pandora's box is open and there's no closing it. I will say that I firmly believe that if they didn't exist that the cold war would have been a lot hotter as the risk of destruction to the national homelands of both countries would have been relatively low. That battle wasn't decided with conventional weapons due to the fear of escalation and mutual assured destruction.

Weapons belong in the hands of sane and rational people and those sane and rational people have to remain sane and rational enough to recognize who they are and the role they play. The most dangerous trend in the world today is not arms but the loss of moral clarity. Arms (of any type) are only safe in the hands of moral people. As the world moves to abandon any semblance of morality those arms will be used by the insane, irrational, and immoral. Mac

Ken
04-17-2010, 10:45 AM
Excellent post, Mac! :clap:

Rick
04-17-2010, 04:02 PM
That really is a good post. I think morality (or the lack thereof) is at the root of most of our problems. Both internal and abroad.

BENESSE
04-17-2010, 05:18 PM
That really is a good post. I think morality (or the lack thereof) is at the root of most of our problems. Both internal and abroad.

Morality is just the beginning--the price of entry really.
But it goes deeper. In broad strokes, it's this perceived right to preach to others what we think is the right thing for them to do. We may have the best intentions but it is never received that way, especially when it's seen as pure meddling.
When we employ a double standard--one for us and our friends and another for anyone who disagrees we cannot claim a moral high ground and get away with it for too long. We can enforce it as long as we have the means, but it won't last.
The golden rule applies only while we have the gold. But fortunes come and go and without the hearts and minds we don't have anything.
History has thought us that and I hope we don't have to personally find out the hard way.

Ken
04-17-2010, 05:36 PM
Take 3 minutes and watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoeuh-EGj7s&feature=related

Rick
04-17-2010, 05:47 PM
I apparently didn't explain myself very well. I meant our morality, not others. As long as we do not conduct ourselves, on an individual basis, as a moral person, then we can never hope to ever again be a moral nation. That lack of morality is pretty transparent so it's little wonder other countries offer us no respect. We simply haven't earned it.

BENESSE
04-17-2010, 05:57 PM
Take 3 minutes and watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoeuh-EGj7s&feature=related[/URL]

That speech has everything I believe in and hold dear.
But we've strayed a long way from there and we are lost.
The world is different and our own moral clarity dim and dimmer.
I want to get back to the time when these words were spoken and actually meant something:

excerpt
The Shining City Upon A Hill
On January 25, 1974

"We are not a warlike people. Nor is our history filled with tales of aggressive adventures and imperialism, which might come as a shock to some of the placard painters in our modern demonstrations. The lesson of Vietnam, I think, should be that never again will young Americans be asked to fight and possibly die for a cause unless that cause is so meaningful that we, as a nation, pledge our full resources to achieve victory as quickly as possible.

I realize that such a pronouncement, of course, would possibly be laying one open to the charge of warmongering -- but that would also be ridiculous. My generation has paid a higher price and has fought harder for freedom that any generation that had ever lived. We have known four wars in a single lifetime. All were horrible, all could have been avoided if at a particular moment in time we had made it plain that we subscribed to the words of John Stuart Mill when he said that war is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.

[url]http://www.originofnations.org/books,%20papers/quotes%20etc/Reagan_The%20Shining%20City%20Upon%20A%20Hill%20sp eech.htm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoeuh-EGj7s&feature=related)

BENESSE
04-17-2010, 06:08 PM
I apparently didn't explain myself very well. I meant our morality, not others. As long as we do not conduct ourselves, on an individual basis, as a moral person, then we can never hope to ever again be a moral nation. That lack of morality is pretty transparent so it's little wonder other countries offer us no respect. We simply haven't earned it.

AMEN to that.

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yellowcab
12-04-2025, 08:37 AM
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yellowcab
12-04-2025, 08:38 AM
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yellowcab
03-04-2026, 10:10 AM
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yellowcab
03-04-2026, 10:11 AM
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yellowcab
05-14-2026, 10:37 PM
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yellowcab
05-14-2026, 10:38 PM
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