View Full Version : Self defence on the trail??
panch0
03-04-2010, 11:22 AM
This poor girl, if only she had a strong walking stick, some pepper spray, pistol etc... This guy would have been toast. Being in shape helps, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared to defend your self either. Poor girl.....
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/21713--killer-recounts-last-days-of-his-victim-s-life
nell67
03-04-2010, 11:51 AM
Short of having a weapon,she did everything she could do,we had a discussion about this when she went missing
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1392&highlight=meredith+Emerson
panch0
03-04-2010, 11:57 AM
Thanks Nell, I was looking for a thread on this story and wasn't able to locate it. It was a dang shame. I hope he gets his.
I wonder if pepper spray would have helped. I have been thinking of having my wife carry some after she get trained on its use.
rebel
03-04-2010, 12:28 PM
Now we can spend our money keeping this trash alive and living without a care. The sad part is, a lot of people depend on us keeping him alive.
SARKY
03-04-2010, 12:36 PM
If we can never return him back into society, ........then just put 2 into the back of his head and take the burden off of us!
rebel
03-04-2010, 12:52 PM
If we can never return him back into society, ........then just put 2 into the back of his head and take the burden off of us!
2! 1 small and let'em flop around.
My honey exercises by running every day on rural roads, sometimes just before dawn.
For the life of me, I can't get her to carry a small pistol or even a can of mace.
panch0
03-04-2010, 03:15 PM
My honey exercises by running every day on rural roads, sometimes just before dawn.
For the life of me, I can't get her to carry a small pistol or even a can of mace.
Mine sometimes is on the road at night coming from in laws house and passes by a couple of not so nice neighborhoods. This story really gets me thinking.
Pal334
03-04-2010, 03:52 PM
I have a friend (LEO) whose wife jogged late nights and would never carry anything. He took to aperiodicaly following her. Sure enough one evening he came upon her being accosted by a young man. Suffice it to say the young man required extensive medical attention after he was found in the ditch by a passer by a few hours later. Now that wife is very proficient in the use of a small caliber handgun and goes nowhere without it. Never take anything for granted
rebel
03-04-2010, 04:11 PM
Just sign-up for a self defense class for two. You and your Misses. Then practice with her. She'll come around and your team member will be an asset if you need help.
Just sign-up for a self defense class for two. You and your Misses. Then practice with her. She'll come around and your team member will be an asset if you need help.
I don't know about that, Reb. I never give her enough reason to shoot me, but to kick the crap out of me.........? :innocent:
We're both safer if she just carries a gun. :blushing:
panch0
03-04-2010, 04:16 PM
I don't know about that, Reb. I never give her enough reason to shoot me, but to kick the crap out of me.........? :innocent:
We're both safer if she just carries a gun. :blushing:
I am with Ken on that one:sneaky2:
rebel
03-04-2010, 04:24 PM
Well, it sounds like a couple of ya need the class just to go home. Sad. Pitiful.
Well, it sounds like a couple of ya need the class just to go home. Sad. Pitiful.
I'm okay so long as she DOESN'T take the class. Unless I stop giving her reasons.... :innocent:
panch0
03-04-2010, 04:28 PM
My wife is scared of guns but I can probably get her to carry some pepper spray. I just never looked into how effective it is a a defensive weapon. I work on the fire arm front as much as I can with her.
rebel
03-04-2010, 04:43 PM
I guess I got lucky. My Mrs. carries spray, practices defensive blocks and strikes, and likes to shoot. I have no doubt that if I needed help, she would jump-in. When it comes to arguments...I've lost every time and always will.
When it comes to arguments...I've lost every time and always will.
And why should you be any different from the rest of the guys here? :innocent:
(Signed) Misery Loves Company
My wife started carrying mace a couple of weeks ago. Her carry permit arrived yesterday. WooHoo!!!!
My wife started carrying mace a couple of weeks ago. Her carry permit arrived yesterday. WooHoo!!!!
Just in case you happen to get on her wrong side. :innocent:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2895451/Differences-Between-Pepper-Spray-and-Mace
Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken. I've begged her to hurt me for 35 years. It hasn't happened yet.
Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken. I've begged her to hurt me for 35 years. It hasn't happened yet.
More coffee on the screen. :innocent:
http://reviews.cnet.com/i/ff/wp/061505/step4_300.gif
BENESSE
03-04-2010, 06:10 PM
A tragic story for sure but the girl made a fatal mistake by hooking up with this guy in the first place.
"It began when the college graduate met the drifter as she hiked through some rough terrain with her dog on Georgia's Appalachian Trail in January of this year. The duo actually hiked together on New Year's Day..."
We can debate what could have helped but how about better judgment?
The AT is really a different breed. It's not uncommon to see older guys and younger gals or vice versa hiking together. It's pretty common, actually. While murders occur along the AT each year it's not really something that you think about happening and the percentage is pretty low given the number of hikers. You're probably a lot safer on the AT than the local mall. So I'm not surprised that she didn't think anything about hooking up with him.
BENESSE
03-04-2010, 07:34 PM
The AT is really a different breed. It's not uncommon to see older guys and younger gals or vice versa hiking together. It's pretty common, actually. While murders occur along the AT each year it's not really something that you think about happening and the percentage is pretty low given the number of hikers. You're probably a lot safer on the AT than the local mall. So I'm not surprised that she didn't think anything about hooking up with him.
So Rick, you would have been OK if your 24 yr. old college grad (obviously accomplished) daughter met up with some 60+ yr. old drifter (looking the way he does) and hiked the AT?
Well not I, thank you.
I'll risk missing out on forming some wonderful friendships, I guess.
You sort of have to be there. Folks hike with whoever shows up at the shelters if they happen to start out at the same time. They may hike together a couple of hours or a couple of days. Just depends. All I'm saying is that folks on the AT are just a different bunch of folks. It's a lot more like family there. It's probably hard to appreciate it unless you've been part of it. Think of Woodstock with scruples.
roar-k
03-04-2010, 08:09 PM
You sort of have to be there. Folks hike with whoever shows up at the shelters if they happen to start out at the same time. They may hike together a couple of hours or a couple of days. Just depends. All I'm saying is that folks on the AT are just a different bunch of folks. It's a lot more like family there. It's probably hard to appreciate it unless you've been part of it. Think of Woodstock with scruples.
I have also had people come into my shelter that gave off the wrong vibe. 3 guys came in once when I was in a shelter and they were looking me over and they were asking questions such as "Are you travelling with anyone else?" Or "Are you meeting up with someone on the trail?"
It just didn't feel right, and after they went to bed I waited about an hour and I packed up and I booked it for about a mile or so and set up for the night off the side of the trail. I know it's not allowed, but I really didn't care at the moment. I was more concerned with self preservation.
And to this day I swear I heard someone or something walking down the trail about 45 minutes later. More than likely I was just spooked and was hearing every snack, crackle, pop that night. But it freaked me out to no end.
Could it have been friendly inquiry? Sure it could have, but when all your questions are trying to garner information about the number of people in my party or if I happen to be meeting a friend on the trail it sort of sets off alarms in my head.
your_comforting_company
03-04-2010, 08:15 PM
... You're probably a lot safer on the AT than the local mall.
especially if I'm at the mall that day. :smash:.
Could it have been friendly inquiry?
If I don't know you, then all bets are off. I would have moved too. Good instincts if you ask me.
I know some guys in suit and tie that'll eat you alive. You know anybody like that Ken?
LowKey
03-04-2010, 08:19 PM
I think if they wanted you, they wouldn't have slept through your packing and leaving. But no sense in sticking around to find out. I'd have done what you did.
canid
03-04-2010, 08:33 PM
So Rick, you would have been OK if your 24 yr. old college grad (obviously accomplished) daughter met up with some 60+ yr. old drifter (looking the way he does) and hiked the AT?
Well not I, thank you.
I'll risk missing out on forming some wonderful friendships, I guess.
have you hiked any of our serious wilderness trails? 3/4 of the trekkers out there look like they haven't had a shower, shave or hot cup of coffee in a while. after a week on the trail, almost everybody looks like a transient. the only way you can tell what kind of person somebody might be in many cases is that vibe they put across, if it isn't made clear by the way they behave.
Ole WV Coot
03-04-2010, 11:38 PM
Just sign-up for a self defense class for two. You and your Misses. Then practice with her. She'll come around and your team member will be an asset if you need help.
Best train her yourself. There are "strip mall masters" everywhere that teach everything that doesn't work. From my "limited" experience in violence she was taught cute kicks & tricks on a mat not real world fighting. The walking stick suggested would have worked, knife or firearm better IF she was taught the right mindset. It reads as if she was in good physical condition and made a mistake by not reading people and always keeping a personal space defended. She should have had access to many improvised weapons and I personally don't believe she had the mindset and could have refrained from simply killing the man at the first assault. Most folks on here have been trained, if not by Uncle Sam a bar fight when a pool cue or ashtray worked wonders and a finger in the eye will work wonders. Humans have at least ten spots that will disable or kill with a moderate blow, she should have been taught right, not how to high kick and bow. Only one winner the way I learned to play.:smash:
Roar - Right, wrong or indifferent you always trust your gut. If it feels wrong then it is wrong. Those kind of folks are out there for sure. My only point was that there are a lot fewer of them on the AT than you'll find in most other places. And Canid is right on the money about appearance. The only thing he left off was spell. I would never drink water out of the streams on the AT. I've seen too many trekkers bathing in them!!!!!
welderguy
03-04-2010, 11:55 PM
My wife is scared of guns but I can probably get her to carry some pepper spray. I just never looked into how effective it is a a defensive weapon. I work on the fire arm front as much as I can with her.
I have found that its effective to a degree on your average aggressor , however on drunks, Psychotics, druggies, it is almost worthless.
My one and only defensive gun use was on the AT. I was solo hiking (age 17) and followed a blue blazed trail to get some water. As I was filling up the canteen I noticed two guys sneaking down the trail towards me. I had a Ruger Single Six (.22 Magnum) openly carried on the right side and they were approaching form my left. I undid the hammer thong and kept watching them. The guy in the front glanced down at me, we made eye contact, he quick said something to his buddy and the two came at me in a rush from about 15 yards away.
ADRENALINE RUSH
I had time to stand up and face them before they arrived at the edge of the creek. I had a canteen in my left hand, screwing on the cap with my right. They both had large knives on their belts and the guy on the right had his hand on the hilt ready to draw.
As I faced them they stopped short and RADAR LOCKED on the holstered gun. Guy on the left let go of his knife. I was about .5 seconds from drawing/shooting. At the time I was shooting a brick a week from that gun and could have had four shots off by the time that canteen bounced twice. Would a .22 Mag have stopped them? Probably not but they would have had three each before it got ugly for me.
The deterrent value of the holstered gun was enough. The guy on the left said, "Huh-huh, we were just trying to scare you..." I said, "It worked." I moved to my pack, saddled up and left them sitting on a log. Mac
Pal334
03-05-2010, 08:47 AM
Good job Pict, you showed admirable restraint. I dare say that 2-3 .22mags in each would have significantly altered the course of the rest of their lives.
BENESSE
03-05-2010, 08:53 AM
have you hiked any of our serious wilderness trails? 3/4 of the trekkers out there look like they haven't had a shower, shave or hot cup of coffee in a while. after a week on the trail, almost everybody looks like a transient. the only way you can tell what kind of person somebody might be in many cases is that vibe they put across, if it isn't made clear by the way they behave.
No haven't canid, and perhaps that's why I just can't quite wrap my mind around the whole scenario of this girl and the drifter.
But your and Rick's word is good enough for me.
I finally get it.
Good job Pict, you showed admirable restraint. I dare say that 2-3 .22mags in each would have significantly altered the course of the rest of their lives.
That was the last time I carried a .22 for defense! These days theres an openly carried Glock 17 or a 1911A1.
I was out once on the AT with my daughter (13 at the time) and came across a hiker, all yuppied up with matching ultralight gear. He clearly had himself a good snicker when he saw my gun (1911). He was headed into the same area where my previous encounter had happened. I may not be PC but I'm nobody's dinner either.
I agree that your chances of having a problem on the trail are less than in town but out there you are on your own and any encounter is likely to be far more dangerous. The perp has no fear of being seen and no fear of anyone coming to your aid. If he (or they) decide to take you there is little you can do about it. A little visible steel goes a long way towards making them do the right thing and decide not to attack you in the first place.
What is that saying? "Be polite to everyone you meet but also have a plan to kill them." Works for me. Mac
I agree that your chances of having a problem on the trail are less than in town but out there you are on your own and any encounter is likely to be far more dangerous.
I can't disagree with that wisdom. Perhaps I've been luckier than most. I've never encountered anyone "mischievous" on any trail. I know they are out there but I've never encountered them. Maybe I'm just to ugly to care about. (shrug).
BENESSE
03-05-2010, 09:27 AM
I can't disagree with that wisdom. Perhaps I've been luckier than most. I've never encountered anyone "mischievous" on any trail. I know they are out there but I've never encountered them. Maybe I'm just to ugly to care about. (shrug).
Likewise, after 20yrs the city I've never felt unsafe or in any danger.
I go everywhere and do everything but I pay attention and use common sense. And I guess, I've also been lucky.
roar-k
03-05-2010, 10:07 AM
I can't disagree with that wisdom. Perhaps I've been luckier than most. I've never encountered anyone "mischievous" on any trail. I know they are out there but I've never encountered them. Maybe I'm just to ugly to care about. (shrug).
It's all coming together now and making sense. I got messed with and am quite handsome and you have been left alone...
Just watch "Deliverance" a few times and then say...
"Boy... you got a purty mouth!"
Put dueling banjos in the MP3 and head to the gunstore.
Mac
rwc1969
03-05-2010, 01:00 PM
....What is that saying? "Be polite to everyone you meet but also have a plan to kill them." Works for me. Mac
Works for me too!
....What is that saying? "Be polite to everyone you meet but also have a plan to kill them." Works for me. Mac
I've never heard that. You just made that up, didn't you? Freaky.
Rick,
I didn't make that up. I can't say I think that way all the time either but when it's just me and few miles of wilderness I do. Mac
BENESSE
03-05-2010, 02:50 PM
Rick,
I didn't make that up. I can't say I think that way all the time either but when it's just me and few miles of wilderness I do. Mac
It's kind of similar to:
Diplomacy Is Saying Nice Doggy Until You Find A Rock
BENESSE
03-05-2010, 03:28 PM
....You too?
Surprised?:innocent:
Well yeah. I searched through my Minister of Science reference books on famous quotes and sayings. The one on exotic quotes and sayings. The one on rarely uttered quotes and sayings and I've even pulled out my ancient book on Neanderthal Quotes and Sayings and I can't find either of those anywhere. I did find "A pterodactyl in the hand is worth two in the bush" but I don't think that's the same thing.
http://aaroncrocco.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/dust-off.jpg
2dumb2kwit
03-05-2010, 05:23 PM
I've never heard that. You just made that up, didn't you? Freaky.
Rick...google is your friend.
FALLUJAH -- A sign on the door leading out of India Companys Combat Operations Center says Have a Plan to Kill Everyone You Meet. For a fraction of second I thought it might be some kind of joke. But I was with the Marine Corps in Fallujah, and it wasnt a joke.
I asked Captain Stewart Glenn if he could explain and perhaps elaborate a bit on what, exactly, that sign is about. Its pretty straightforward, he said rather bluntly. It means exactly what it says.
Oh, sure, sure. Take some random near miss and pretend it's a quote. But I know better.
2dumb2kwit
03-05-2010, 05:59 PM
It's kind of similar to:
Diplomacy Is Saying Nice Doggy Until You Find A Rock
Will Rogers....I believe.:innocent:
2dumb2kwit
03-05-2010, 06:06 PM
Oh, sure, sure. Take some random near miss and pretend it's a quote. But I know better.
OK...In that case, see #21.:innocent:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/ammunition/2009/02/petzal-rules-gunfighting
Camp10
03-05-2010, 06:16 PM
It's kind of similar to:
Diplomacy Is Saying Nice Doggy Until You Find A Rock
I like that one!! Never heard it before but I like it.
USMC Rules For Gun Fighting
* Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
* Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
* Only hits count. A close miss is still a miss.
* If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
* Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movements are preferred.)
* If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
* In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics.
* They will only remember who lived.
* If you are not shooting, you should be communic- ating, reloading, and running.
* Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
* Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.
* Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
* Always cheat = always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
* Have a plan.
* Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
* Use cover and concealment as much as possible.
* Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
* Don't drop your guard.
* Always tactically reload and threat scan 360 degrees.
* Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
* Decide to be AGGRESSIVE enough, QUICKLY enough.
* The faster you finish the fight, the less shot up you will get.
* Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
* Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
* Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4".
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/militaryhumor/a/gunrules.htm
I knew I read that somewhere...
Mac
BENESSE
03-05-2010, 08:00 PM
USMC Rules For Gun Fighting
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/militaryhumor/a/gunrules.htm
I knew I read that somewhere...
Mac
Thanks Mac, that's a good read.
I love how simple and unambiguous it is.
2dumb2kwit
03-05-2010, 08:05 PM
Thanks Mac, that's a good read.
I love how simple and unambiguous it is.
Oh, Fine! I guess that list was just stupid, when I posted a link to it.:innocent:
Man! You sure had to make up a lot of good stuff just to support your made up quote. :innocent:
Oh, Fine! I guess that list was just stupid, when I posted a link to it.
Okay, if you say so.
BENESSE
03-05-2010, 08:16 PM
Oh, Fine! I guess that list was just stupid, when I posted a link to it.:innocent:
Sorry, where was that?
Probably buried in something gross.
2dumb2kwit
03-05-2010, 08:20 PM
Sorry, where was that?
Probably buried in something gross.
Post #51.:sneaky2:
...and it wasn't in anything gross. I was defending what mac had posted!:innocent:
BENESSE
03-05-2010, 08:24 PM
Post #51.:sneaky2:
...and it wasn't in anything gross. I was defending what mac had posted!:innocent:
Apologies 2D...didn't even open it.
2dumb2kwit
03-05-2010, 08:27 PM
Apologies 2D...didn't even open it.
It's OK....as long as you still love me.:innocent:
(Sheez...Now I know how Rodney Dangerfield felt.):innocent:
BENESSE
03-05-2010, 08:28 PM
It's OK....as long as you still love me.:innocent:
(Sheez...Now I know how Rodney Dangerfield felt.):innocent:
You know I do, suga!
2dumb2kwit
03-05-2010, 08:29 PM
You know I do, suga!
:clap::blushing::blushing::blushing:
2dumb2kwit
03-05-2010, 08:36 PM
Get a room......
Heck no!!!
I'm allowed to joke around.
I'm allowed to flirt, a little.
Heck, I'm even allowed to look, if somebody flashes me....but anything beyond that, and I stand a good chance of waking up missing some body parts.:blushing:
A guy I worked with came in very very early one morning and sneaked into the bedroom. He cautiously crawled into bet. Leaned over to see if he had wakened his wife and she wasn't there. When he looked up she was standing at the foot of the bed with a very large knife.
"Go ahead and go to sleep", she told him. "The next sound you'll hear is me cutting your heart out."
"Whadya do?" I asked him.
"I did what anyone would. I got up, fixed coffee, took a shower and kept a close watch behind me."
2dumb2kwit
03-05-2010, 08:50 PM
Ya see...it doesn't matter if you're in the wilderness, or at home....a man has to know his limits.:innocent: LOL
Pal334
03-05-2010, 09:24 PM
Thanks Pict: * Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4". * Nice to be vindicated by the Gyrenes
BENESSE
03-05-2010, 09:26 PM
Get a room......
I BEG you pardon?!
God-a-mighty, I'm just being nice to my buddy 2D here,
and you're talking ROOMS?
I am shocked and dismayed!
Batch
03-07-2010, 04:11 PM
Thanks Pict: * Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4". * Nice to be vindicated by the Gyrenes
Vindication revoked! Flag on the play!!!!
Let's get a call from the REAL Marines please.
What caliber sidearm is issued by the USMC? :innocent: :clap::clap::clap: :innocent:
Pal334
03-07-2010, 04:58 PM
Vindication revoked! Flag on the play!!!!
Let's get a call from the REAL Marines please.
What caliber sidearm is issued by the USMC? :innocent: :clap::clap::clap: :innocent:
Oh no!!!! Your Alter Ego is not called Glockcop is it? (teasing all around with that).
Batch
03-07-2010, 05:27 PM
Yeah, that was just too good to pass up. :)
BTW, just for the record. I grew up on .45 1911. My Dad being a .45 guy. I don't own any Glocks. But, certainly would if I come across a deal.
For me shot placement trumps ballistic displacement. Pick a reliable firearm in a significant caliber (.38 special and up?). And remember the first rule of a gun fight. Have a gun! :)
Here's a great series of training films by a well respected master.
http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/smith.html?feedPID=00zG15zm84msK0GbWemanhJ0KNWQYqM 4
Batch
03-07-2010, 08:03 PM
Yeah, he said backstrap and fire when he got to the Jframe portion and I had to excuse myself to the freezer and get something thawing. :tongue_smilie:
I got nothing against wheel guns at all.
Pal334
03-07-2010, 08:12 PM
"And remember the first rule of a gun fight."Have a gun!
And the second is: No one has ever been killed by loud noise
Soiled perhaps but not killed.
Shooting Twice IS Silly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qTNKdUqWzQ&feature=PlayList&p=2ADF656DF7899249&index=3)
Mac
Batch
03-08-2010, 07:29 AM
Gabe Saurez isn't everybody's cup of tea. But, he and I agree on two things. Shoot em to the ground and don't be where the bullets are going.
Whats he say? Die less often...
Gabe doesn't exactly shy from controversy.
I subscribe to the TVV theory of handgun self defense. Total Volume of Ventilation is a scale purely of my own invention whereby you add up the total bullet diameter contained in the gun multiplied by the muzzle energy of the chosen rounds.
For instance...
My Glock 17 with a plus 2 mag carries a total of 20 rounds of 9mm at .355 inches each for a total bullet diameter factor of 7.1 inches. With a muzzle energy of 350 ft/lbs each that is a total of 7000 available foot pounds x 7.1 inches of diameter for a TVV of 49,700.
My 1911 carries a total of eight rounds of .45 ACP for a total bullet diameter of 3.6 inches. Each round has a MV of 400 foot pounds for a total energy of 3,200 available foot pounds x 3.6 or TVV of 11,520.
Of course the TVV is tongue in cheek, carry what you want. The real answer to the caliber wars is carry the caliber of your choice and avoid war altogether. Mac
Pal334
03-08-2010, 08:37 AM
Soiled perhaps but not killed.
I can deliver rather explicit, first hand testimony to that :(
Pal334
03-08-2010, 08:40 AM
Gabe doesn't exactly shy from controversy.
I subscribe to the TVV theory of handgun self defense. Total Volume of Ventilation is a scale purely of my own invention whereby you add up the total bullet diameter contained in the gun multiplied by the muzzle energy of the chosen rounds.
For instance...
My Glock 17 with a plus 2 mag carries a total of 20 rounds of 9mm at .355 inches each for a total bullet diameter factor of 7.1 inches. With a muzzle energy of 350 ft/lbs each that is a total of 7000 available foot pounds x 7.1 inches of diameter for a TVV of 49,700.
My 1911 carries a total of eight rounds of .45 ACP for a total bullet diameter of 3.6 inches. Each round has a MV of 400 foot pounds for a total energy of 3,200 available foot pounds x 3.6 or TVV of 11,520.
Of course the TVV is tongue in cheek, carry what you want. The real answer to the caliber wars is carry the caliber of your choice and avoid war altogether. Mac
I actually have proposed in the past that all holsters be modified to keep ones favorite beverage chilled to the proper temperature. And that it be mandatory for each person to carry a spare beverage to share . I have always found it difficult to be aggressive towards someone who is sharing a beverage with me. :innocent:
Pal334
03-08-2010, 08:41 AM
Shooting Twice IS Silly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qTNKdUqWzQ&feature=PlayList&p=2ADF656DF7899249&index=3)
Mac
Can not see this just now, firewall at work :(
Batch
03-09-2010, 12:57 AM
Gabe doesn't exactly shy from controversy.
I subscribe to the TVV theory of handgun self defense. Total Volume of Ventilation is a scale purely of my own invention whereby you add up the total bullet diameter contained in the gun multiplied by the muzzle energy of the chosen rounds.
For instance...
My Glock 17 with a plus 2 mag carries a total of 20 rounds of 9mm at .355 inches each for a total bullet diameter factor of 7.1 inches. With a muzzle energy of 350 ft/lbs each that is a total of 7000 available foot pounds x 7.1 inches of diameter for a TVV of 49,700.
My 1911 carries a total of eight rounds of .45 ACP for a total bullet diameter of 3.6 inches. Each round has a MV of 400 foot pounds for a total energy of 3,200 available foot pounds x 3.6 or TVV of 11,520.
Of course the TVV is tongue in cheek, carry what you want. The real answer to the caliber wars is carry the caliber of your choice and avoid war altogether. Mac
Gabe is a Glock fan. But, most of what I like about what he teaches come from Marc Denny and Southnarc.
BENESSE
03-09-2010, 08:42 AM
Here's a great series of training films by a well respected master.
http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/smith.html?feedPID=00zG15zm84msK0GbWemanhJ0KNWQYqM 4
Thanks Rick, that's a very useful site...love the simplicity & straight-forward delivery.
Well shot (:)), easy to follow.
I certainly look forward to forming my very own biases when it come to guns.
canid
03-09-2010, 08:46 AM
Diplomacy Is Saying Nice Doggy Until You Find A Rock
i like that. having been chased by more than a couple street dogs, i can relate to the feeling.
canid
03-09-2010, 08:54 AM
Shooting Twice IS Silly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qTNKdUqWzQ&feature=PlayList&p=2ADF656DF7899249&index=3)
Mac
i see that being effective against point blank gunfire, or aimed fire, but in a panic situation, your attacker might be putting lead anywhere in that entire quadrant as it is.
yellowcab
09-20-2025, 07:26 PM
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yellowcab
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yellowcab
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yellowcab
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yellowcab
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What (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1088945)Intr (http://habituate.ru/t/1092651)Mart (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1209121)Иллю (http://hackworker.ru/t/1346252)Conn (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1104303)Step (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1099361)Over (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1136812)Фото (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1084607)Дуби (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1047332)прои (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1031877)Сави (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/937220)*йтв (http://haltstate.ru/t/957290)Tesc (http://handcoding.ru/t/1027842)устр (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1240240)Gavi (http://handradar.ru/t/900825)
SKWP (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1042718)Acca (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1144823)Дени (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/857349)дете (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/768709)Мите (http://hardasiron.ru/t/809763)парт (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/947308)Robe (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1002493)упра (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/856734)*оди (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1024126)beco (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1547450)Воло (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1343818)карм (http://headregulator.ru/t/1547498)*азм (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1547882)Грен (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1050784)Timo (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1371569)
Aste (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1182946)Phil (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/770628)Асау (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/834358)Томс (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1251436)спец (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/817543)Geor (http://jobstress.ru/t/845573)Basi (http://jogformation.ru/t/1033334)Coto (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1148176)Herb (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1223693)инст (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1305924)Coto (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1148160)Circ (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1180835)Шуль (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1182342)Eleg (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1184466)Zero (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1180486)
Orla (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1181556)Пере (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/820750)Deco (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1183560)Firs (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1189121)Hein (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/833586)Masa (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/810720)карм (http://keyserum.ru/t/1181346)Проз (http://kickplate.ru/t/1357420)Ласл (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1346516)Love (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1108663)Козл (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1352748)Тейл (http://kinozones.ru/film/1066)Dina (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1201057)Волш (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1196179)Mila (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1711277)
вузо (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1018150)McBa (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1230296)Тест (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1505442)Зале (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1294442)Бори (http://laborracket.ru/t/1308718)Zone (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1548959)Zone (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1548670)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1191039)Zone (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1189694)Chet (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1188989)Zone (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1187308)Zone (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1194125)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1192386)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190700)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1192334)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1192387)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1194117)Cons (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1247621)Chet (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1185536)Zone (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1185487)Zone (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1186927)Zone (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1189480)псих (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1375580)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1187370)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185720)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1191484)клей (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161706)Fabr (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1163942)Eplu (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1074)хоро (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590958)
yellowcab
03-03-2026, 05:28 AM
беж/ (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178558)Bosc (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/453079)Dolb (http://layabout.ru/shop/453487)Nigh (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/600234)Fant (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/106163)поко (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/465993)Иллю (http://leaveword.ru/shop/466674)Fies (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/270011)Pina (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/575865)прис (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/445976)MWYa (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/268976)GDeB (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/577160)Comm (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/576064)Myst (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/612360)Disn (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1040407)
спор (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/600920)спец (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1066)Jazz (http://mp3lists.ru/item/1066)МА80 (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1148831)Арти (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/397581)Truc (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461812)изде (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1055891)акад (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/504561)Sole (http://navelseed.ru/shop/103040)пало (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455423)Brit (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/178494)Stai (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/616059)Феде (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/640612)XVII (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/447378)Drem (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/445743)
Ligh (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/102318)Вечк (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/560625)Roya (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/1149801)Лит* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/149153)Karl (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/203116)Гром (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/150236)Иллю (http://onesticket.ru/shop/580358)wwwn (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/582751)Лит* (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/684705)Aria (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/684060)Сама (http://palmberry.ru/shop/688874)Side (http://papercoating.ru/shop/584124)Лит* (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/689568)Бель (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1168962)Галк (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1168973)
Тара (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1173970)Авто (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1173068)разр (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1543143)Некр (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1538710)фило (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/596201)Fran (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/669467)Дебю (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1072918)сним (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1075214)Арсе (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/340076)Hori (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/510430)Юрье (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/621346)Prem (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/884481)Школ (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/921875)допо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1110450)Васи (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/355017)
Лапи (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/514880)film (http://rearchain.ru/shop/738208)Млеч (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/641280)Sony (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1028180)исце (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1054982)Литк (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1063429)Семе (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1685146)Серг (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693889)авто (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1765025)Jewe (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1775109)анал (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1819747)возр (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1057752)Бело (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1849684)Маля (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1876035)Плот (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1897908)
Прон (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1493768)1962 (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1481785)Голо (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1495729)Мерз (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1566892)взро (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1420560)отве (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1492512)Rowl (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/342251)Коло (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/401035)Соде (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/402764)худо (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1689527)Eplu (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1074)Eplu (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1074)Eplu (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1074)Bete (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/484021)иску (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/491570)
Кисе (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/499462)Мище (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/502368)Davi (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/488798)Musi (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/500215)Плис (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1823014)обра (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1881614)Guid (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1902230)Eliz (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/788040)Cath (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/402741)Ники (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/981907)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Боло (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/982226)Майо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/484396)
yellowcab
05-13-2026, 05:51 PM
audiobookkeeper.ru (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet.ru (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision.ru (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions.com (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee.ru (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones.ru (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall.ru (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape.ru (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard.ru (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule.ru (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct.ru (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric.ru (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman.ru (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform.ru (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute.ru (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave.ru (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery.ru (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket.ru (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn.ru (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep.ru (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel.ru (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter.ru (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter.ru (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating.ru (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis.ru (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions.ru (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe.ru (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse.ru (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap.ru (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce.ru (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus.ru (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate.ru (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt.ru (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker.ru (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation.ru (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin.ru (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall.ru (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere.ru (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe.ru (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings.ru (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence.ru (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate.ru (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding.ru (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead.ru (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar.ru (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone.ru (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart.ru (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding.ru (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth.ru (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron.ru (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete.ru (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction.ru (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose.ru (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown.ru (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime.ru (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere.ru (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator.ru (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold.ru (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance.ru (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas.ru (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)
yellowcab
05-13-2026, 05:52 PM
laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)
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