Women To Serve On US Submarines,

[Justin Case]

Women To Serve On US Submarines, Congress Nod Awaited
2/24/2010 3:20 AM ET



(RTTNews) - The US defense department proposes to permit women to serve on board submarines, media reports said Tuesday quoting senior officials.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates is understood to have written to the Congress informing it of the Navy's plan which could see women sailors serving on nuclear submarines as early as in 2011.

Although women constitute about 15 per cent of the US Navy's 336,000 plus strong staff and are deployed on warships, they are barred from serving on board submarines due to their cramped conditions under which even beds are shared by the crew in shifts.

If the proposal was cleared by the Congress, woman naval officers will be the first to make the grade since officers have separate quarters in the Navy. The Congress has 30 days to give its nod for the measure.
The move coincided with US Army Chief of Staff General George Casey's statement to the Congress that it was high time that the rules preventing women from combat roles were reviewed.

"I believe it's time that we take a look at what women are actually doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then we look at our policies," he said.

Women are still not allowed to serve in combat roles in the US Army despite critics pointing out that they faced the same kind of risks and dangers encountered by their male counterparts.
http://www.rttnews.com/Content/GeneralNews.aspx?Node=B1&Id=1220398

[Justin Case]

Waddaya Think Crash ? Is this a good Idea ?

[BENESSE]

Anyone who is qualified for the job should serve.

[Rick]

Discrimination of any kind not only hurts those discriminated against but also the service as a whole. Let me give you a sound example. During the 1930's and 1940's Hitler ordered some 6 million people be put to death. Most were Jewish but there were also others based on heritage, religion, etc. Let's assume half of those were men...3 million. Let's assume half of those were men of fighting age...1.5 million. Just for the heck of it let's cut that in half to appease those that don't like my math. 750,000. What could Germany have done with an additional 750,000 soldiers?

[Justin Case]

This is true, But is a Submarine big enough to accommodate both sexes ? would there be separate living quarters ? or, will they just be professional enough to share the showers so to speak ?

[2dumb2kwit]

Heck yeah. In fact, if they have enough room, I think they should have one for every guy on board. I mean think about it.....with all that these guys are giving up, to protect us, it's the least we could do for them.:innocent:

(Yes...I'm just kidding! I just wanted to get B rung-up. LOL)

[Justin Case]

so you are saying, Let Hookers work on subs ? :innocent:

[glockcop]

They can go down there all day long if it's up to me :). Yall have filthy minds. I meant they can "offer their service". Stop it! There ya go again :innocent:.

[finallyME]

I am a chauvinist pig. Whether I really am doesn't matter, but I might as well admit to it up front because I am sure some will say I am anyways. :gagged:

I am against women in subs. I am also against women in combat roles, or close to it.

"I believe it's time that we take a look at what women are actually doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then we look at our policies," he said.
I agree with this statement, but not in a way he intended. I think we should retract a lot of jobs that women have in the military and keep them from even being close to combat. In Iraq, this would mean they are limited in convoy operations, for example.

For some background info, I was in Iraq as a truck driver. There were many female soldiers in my unit, with many participating in the normal everyday operations of either driving a truck, or maintaining our equipment, etc. I also saw many other female soldiers doing various other MOS'. In other words, I have seen females "in action" in the military in situations that have a potential for combat.

My view point doesn't rest on; are they capable or are they qualified? I only see, why should they? To me, I see it as respecting women and not placing them in a situation of potential personal harm or having to kill someone. I put them on a pedestal and try to protect and preserve their precious and valuable feminine traits of kindness, sympathy, empathy, and love. It is the same reason why I hold the door open for them, or cover them with my umbrella and let me get wet.

So, let the flaming me begin. I am probably the only one with this opinion. And to contradict myself completely, I think gays should be able to serve in the military, in all aspects.

[doug1980]

I am a chauvinist pig. Whether I really am doesn't matter, but I might as well admit to it up front because I am sure some will say I am anyways. :gagged:

I am against women in subs. I am also against women in combat roles, or close to it.

"I believe it's time that we take a look at what women are actually doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then we look at our policies," he said.
I agree with this statement, but not in a way he intended. I think we should retract a lot of jobs that women have in the military and keep them from even being close to combat. In Iraq, this would mean they are limited in convoy operations, for example.

For some background info, I was in Iraq as a truck driver. There were many female soldiers in my unit, with many participating in the normal everyday operations of either driving a truck, or maintaining our equipment, etc. I also saw many other female soldiers doing various other MOS'. In other words, I have seen females "in action" in the military in situations that have a potential for combat.

My view point doesn't rest on; are they capable or are they qualified? I only see, why should they? To me, I see it as respecting women and not placing them in a situation of potential personal harm or having to kill someone. I put them on a pedestal and try to protect and preserve their precious and valuable feminine traits of kindness, sympathy, empathy, and love. It is the same reason why I hold the door open for them, or cover them with my umbrella and let me get wet.

So, let the flaming me begin. I am probably the only one with this opinion. And to contradict myself completely, I think gays should be able to serve in the military, in all aspects.


I agree with you. To add to it, men and women serving together will pose as a huge distraction. It's human nature to have sexual urges and tendicies, and those urges will cause many problems in close combat and close quarter environments. How do I know this, it happened to me. I met my now wife on a deployment and although I am thankful for this and glad it all worked out it was a huge distraction. But this is just my opinion.

[glockcop]

I am a chauvinist pig. Whether I really am doesn't matter, but I might as well admit to it up front because I am sure some will say I am anyways. :gagged:

I am against women in subs. I am also against women in combat roles, or close to it.

"I believe it's time that we take a look at what women are actually doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then we look at our policies," he said.
I agree with this statement, but not in a way he intended. I think we should retract a lot of jobs that women have in the military and keep them from even being close to combat. In Iraq, this would mean they are limited in convoy operations, for example.

For some background info, I was in Iraq as a truck driver. There were many female soldiers in my unit, with many participating in the normal everyday operations of either driving a truck, or maintaining our equipment, etc. I also saw many other female soldiers doing various other MOS'. In other words, I have seen females "in action" in the military in situations that have a potential for combat.

My view point doesn't rest on; are they capable or are they qualified? I only see, why should they? To me, I see it as respecting women and not placing them in a situation of potential personal harm or having to kill someone. I put them on a pedestal and try to protect and preserve their precious and valuable feminine traits of kindness, sympathy, empathy, and love. It is the same reason why I hold the door open for them, or cover them with my umbrella and let me get wet.

So, let the flaming me begin. I am probably the only one with this opinion. And to contradict myself completely, I think gays should be able to serve in the military, in all aspects.

I agree. When I worked the street and had to go into a bad bar fight or semi riot I sure did not want a "daisey" for a partner. If I got hurt I know a "soft leg" would not be able to drag/carry my wounded a$$ to safety. I think a women partner is more of a liability than an asset. My attention is on making sure she does not get clobbered instead of focusing on my own safety because criminals/predators will go after the smaller and weaker first. I want someone that is as strong or stronger than me fighting at my side PERIOD! I had to break in a woman rookie a few times. One time this particular woman rookie goes off on a spell about how women can do anything men can do. I stopped the car, ordered all 5'5" and 120 lbs of her out and as we stood at the front of the patrol unit I said, "Punch me one time and try to knock me out......Then it will my turn". Her face turned white as she ate a huge piece of humble pie. It was a quiet ride the rest of the day. Sorry if this offends the ladies but "average" women have no business in fighting role IMO. Yall take care.

[BENESSE]

My view point doesn't rest on; are they capable or are they qualified? I only see, why should they? To me, I see it as respecting women and not placing them in a situation of potential personal harm or having to kill someone. I put them on a pedestal and try to protect and preserve their precious and valuable feminine traits of kindness, sympathy, empathy, and love. It is the same reason why I hold the door open for them, or cover them with my umbrella and let me get wet.


Respect appreciated, pedestal wise.
Keep opening those doors and holding umbrellas for the ladies.
But that respect ought to include protecting their right to (if qualified) serve their country in whatever capacity they see fit, just like anyone else.

[Mischief]

Will give a new meaning to hot bunking.

[nell67]

Whats the difference of having a woman serve on a sub,and having a gay man serving??? Probably only difference is that YOU arre not distracted by the gay man in the next bunk over from you (although he may be distracted by YOU) but if it was a woman,you would allow your thoughts to stray???

Difference between man and animal is his ability to control his behavior so long as he is not of a deminished mental capacity.

[Rick]

Same arguments, different group.

What if they WANT to serve?

[trax]

I believe in the right of any individual to live his or her life as he or she determines as long as harm isn't brought upon others and if harms is brought, live with the consequences that your society have deemed appropriate, or don't live in a society. I also know of several instances where animals are capable of controlling their behavior better than most people I've met.

[Rick]

Yeah, but they live 240 miles from the nearest animal so it's easy for them.

[nell67]

I'm saying let them serve,if they wish to serve,the only reasons for them NOT serving up until this point are all MAN made reasons.

[Rick]

I really don't get it. What's wrong with them serving? Serving breakfast, lunch, dinner, beer?

[nell67]

I really don't get it. What's wrong with them serving? Serving breakfast, lunch, dinner, beer?
Pig,pig,pig......oink.

[Rick]

You bet. Bacon, pork chops. Serve it all.

[BENESSE]

I really don't get it. What's wrong with them serving? Serving breakfast, lunch, dinner, beer?

They already do it at home.
They want to go to combat to relax.

[glockcop]

I'm saying let them serve,if they wish to serve,the only reasons for them NOT serving up until this point are all MAN made reasons.

I respect a woman's wanting to serve their country but only in a NON physical/fighting role. The average man can bench press in excess of 50% of his body weight. An average woman can bench press less than 25% of their body weight. There are exceptions of course. Since fighting/combat is obviously very physical, I'm sure you can see the limitations. Simply put a 250 lb man can handle more than 125 lbs of lifting and a 120 lb woman can only handle about 30 lbs of lifting. Those physical limitations are a liability to the rest of the group who can "pull their own weight". It is just not fair to force men to fight along side of such "weaklings" (for lack of a better term). It is not fair to a women to ask them to fight men potentially twice as stong as them. The fact that the physical requirements in training is alot less for women than men and says it all. If a woman could do the same as a man physically (strength wise) they should be able to serve and fight right along with the men. BUT until then....see where this is going? In the safe sedate atmospher of a submarine or Detective's office , why the hell not let women serve. On the battle field or the mean streets, NO WAY! I know, I know I'm a pig.
Go ahead and flame away. This is just my opinion.

[trax]

uh glockcop? I'm 200 pounds and I can certainly benchpress more than 50% of my weight, but I don't need to be able to in order to squeeze a trigger.

[Ken]

uh glockcop? I'm 200 pounds and I can certainly benchpress more than 50% of my weight, but I don't need to be able to in order to squeeze a trigger.

But the question is, can you bench press more that 50% of Rick's weight? :innocent:

[glockcop]

uh glockcop? I'm 200 pounds and I can certainly benchpress more than 50% of my weight, but I don't need to be able to in order to squeeze a trigger.

When the sh*t hits the fan and things go to "hand to hand combat" I hope you have a really STRONG finger. Get it now?

[nell67]

I respect a woman's wanting to serve their country but only in a NON physical/fighting role. The average man can bench press in excess of 50% of his body weight. An average woman can bench press less than 25% of their body weight. There are exceptions of course. Since fighting/combat is obviously very physical, I'm sure you can see the limitations. Simply put a 250 lb man can handle more than 125 lbs of lifting and a 120 lb woman can only handle about 30 lbs of lifting. Those physical limitations are a liability to the rest of the group who can "pull their own weight". It is just not fair to force men to fight along side of such "weaklings" (for lack of a better term). It is not fair to a women to ask them to fight men potentially twice as stong as them. The fact that the physical requirements in training is alot less for women than men and says it all. If a woman could do the same as a man physically (strength wise) they should be able to serve and fight right along with the men. BUT until then....see where this is going? In the safe sedate atmospher of a submarine or Detective's office , why the hell not let women serve. On the battle field or the mean streets, NO WAY! I know, I know I'm a pig.
Go ahead and flame away. This is just my opinion.
Uh,glockcop??? My son graduated basic training 3 years ago,and the females who graduated with him had the same EXACT training as the men in their unit,same for AIT, they were expected to do exactly what the men in their unit did,no exceptions.

[BENESSE]

If a woman could do the same as a man physically (strength wise) they should be able to serve and fight right along with the men. BUT until then....see where this is going? In the safe sedate atmospher of a sub, why the hell not let women serve. On the battle field or the mean streets, NO WAY! I know, I know I'm a pig.
Go ahead and flame away. This is just my opinion.

You have a point glockcop.
Then why not set up basic requirements for ANY job, and if one meets them, one qualifies. Can't be more fair than that.

[doug1980]

I personally think some women could do just as good if not better than their male counterpart, however, mixing men and women in a close combat situation would be disasterous. It may not be fair to women and that is regretable, but it would cause more harm than good. The logistics of it alone would be a nightmare not to mention all the new procedures, rules, guidlines etc that would have to be implemeted. It is the exact same situation as openly gay men and women serving. Call me a sexist, bigot or whatever but I would find it hard to serve in that situation. I ask the ladies here, how does it make you feel when men look at you like a piece of meat? Constantly making advances and making you feel uncomfortable. I'm sure it isn't pleasant. Now imagine that you are thrown into an environment where you must eat, sleep, shower, use the restroom with those same men day in and day out. They will see every intiment detail about you. Now do you really want that anxiety and worry on your mind when you are in a combat situation trying to keep yourself alive. Plus like glockcop stated earlier the men would be inclined to save and/or protect the women first and disregard proper triage protocol.

[Justin Case]

This conversation reminded me of a Dash Cam video where a female Officer was Attacked by a man ,, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVEVwzcvHc

I seen this on TV a few years ago, This Female Officer was gravely injured, a passerby stopped and used her Radio to call for help, I believe she quit the Police department, if i remember right, she had many broken bones in her face ,

[BENESSE]

On a side note...
I've come across quite a few male cops who could stand to loose 30+lbs. They would win in hand to hand combat with me but they'd have to catch me first.
Fat chance!

[glockcop]

Uh,glockcop??? My son graduated basic training 3 years ago,and the females who graduated with him had the same EXACT training as the men in their unit,same for AIT, they were expected to do exactly what the men in their unit did,no exceptions.

Answer this.....Would you like to fight a man that is potentially twice as strong as you? Is it fair to expect you to? Who do you think would prevail? Also to address your comment, the physical requirements in the Law Enforcement Training Academy (aka P.O.S.T. -Police Officer Standardized Training) were alot less for women up until a few years ago. These were known as the "Cooper Standards". A couple of discrimination law suits from out of shape, fat a$$es and women put an end to such regulations. The standards were lowered so "Large Marge" could pass. Nuff said.

[glockcop]

You have a point glockcop.
Then why not set up basic requirements for ANY job, and if one meets them, one qualifies. Can't be more fair than that.

Agreed....Mental and physical (if applicable).

[glockcop]

On a side note...
I've come across quite a few male cops who could stand to loose 30+lbs. They would win in hand to hand combat with me but they'd have to catch me first.
Fat chance!

Also agreed. Simply disgraceful.

[glockcop]

This conversation reminded me of a Dash Cam video where a female Officer was Attacked by a man ,, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVEVwzcvHc

I seen this on TV a few years ago, This Female Officer was gravely injured, a passerby stopped and used her Radio to call for help, I believe she quit the Police department, if i remember right, she had many broken bones in her face ,

I believe this nicely sums it up as to why women should not work street patrol or be in any job where fighting is a real possibility. I have been through some really bad physical battles on the street (cops call them 108's) with bad guys and I can say for sure if I was smaller and weaker (aka a woman), I would not be here typing this right now. I'm sorry ladies but IMO you have no business fighting. It's the same reason we don't use chihuahua dogs for K9 duty. Smaller dogs are just as smart and trainable as a shepard but.........I'm sure you get my point. Yall stay safe.

[2dumb2kwit]

What do y'all think about the other side of the argument?

What if a woman does the job as good as, or better than a man, but her being there disrupts the work of 20 or 50 men.

Even though it's not her fault, a woman on a sub could lessen the ability of the rest of the crew, to do their jobs.

Is the it worth being P.C., at the expense of the efficiency and/or risk to life, that it may create?

[mcgyver]

Sometimes I see conversations like this one, and think it is somewhat like a group of teenage boys talking about how to control menopausal mood swings.
How do you have a good opinion?

First off, have any of our group here lived aboard a Naval ship?
Second and most important have you ever served under condition 3 for any length of time?

On a Destroyer, I shared berthing with 20 other sailors. Our quarters were racks lined along one side of a passageway (hall). To get dressed, you did so in the passageway and stood up quickly when someone walked by, as there was not enough room to walk by your bent over butt. We 21 men shared one urinal, two crappers, two showers, and two sinks. Getting ready for inspection or liberty was rather tight quarters. Throw in a General Quarters drill (battle stations) and you will really understand the meaning of az zoles-n- elbows. And all that fun is during normal conditions. During a level 3 condition you have a crew awake and moving 24-7. While ½ to 1/3 try to sleep. No privacy at all there.

Now, is it fair to put females on a ship under those conditions? Not if they have a modest bone in there body.
Would it be fair to give them private quarters and not offer that to the men? Can you spell MUTINY?
Quarters aboard a submarine are far tighter.
I won’t even go into the tensions and hazards of co-ed combat situations, but I can tell you it’s not good.
Not as a discussion, but from experience.

[2dumb2kwit]

Sometimes I see conversations like this one, and think it is somewhat like a group of teenage boys talking about how to control menopausal mood swings.
How do you have a good opinion?

First off, have any of our group here lived aboard a Naval ship?
Second and most important have you ever served under condition 3 for any length of time?

On a Destroyer, I shared berthing with 20 other sailors. Our quarters were racks lined along one side of a passageway (hall). To get dressed, you did so in the passageway and stood up quickly when someone walked by, as there was not enough room to walk by your bent over butt. We 21 men shared one urinal, two crappers, two showers, and two sinks. Getting ready for inspection or liberty was rather tight quarters. Throw in a General Quarters drill (battle stations) and you will really understand the meaning of az zoles-n- elbows. And all that fun is during normal conditions. During a level 3 condition you have a crew awake and moving 24-7. While ½ to 1/3 try to sleep. No privacy at all there.

Now, is it fair to put females on a ship under those conditions? Not if they have a modest bone in there body.
Would it be fair to give them private quarters and not offer that to the men? Can you spell MUTINY?
Quarters aboard a submarine are far tighter.
I won’t even go into the tensions and hazards of co-ed combat situations, but I can tell you it’s not good.
Not as a discussion, but from experience.

I guess that pretty much answered my questions. LOL:clap:

[Justin Case]

Sometimes I see conversations like this one, and think it is somewhat like a group of teenage boys talking about how to control menopausal mood swings.
How do you have a good opinion?

First off, have any of our group here lived aboard a Naval ship?
Second and most important have you ever served under condition 3 for any length of time?

On a Destroyer, I shared berthing with 20 other sailors. Our quarters were racks lined along one side of a passageway (hall). To get dressed, you did so in the passageway and stood up quickly when someone walked by, as there was not enough room to walk by your bent over butt. We 21 men shared one urinal, two crappers, two showers, and two sinks. Getting ready for inspection or liberty was rather tight quarters. Throw in a General Quarters drill (battle stations) and you will really understand the meaning of az zoles-n- elbows. And all that fun is during normal conditions. During a level 3 condition you have a crew awake and moving 24-7. While ½ to 1/3 try to sleep. No privacy at all there.

Now, is it fair to put females on a ship under those conditions? Not if they have a modest bone in there body.
Would it be fair to give them private quarters and not offer that to the men? Can you spell MUTINY?
Quarters aboard a submarine are far tighter.
I won’t even go into the tensions and hazards of co-ed combat situations, but I can tell you it’s not good.
Not as a discussion, but from experience.

Agreed 100% , seem only logical, when i posted the thread I was hoping to hear from Crashdive123 as well, but i would "assume"living on a Sub is not a whole lot different from being on a Destroyer, even more cramped if anything, :)

[BENESSE]

What do y'all think about the other side of the argument?

What if a woman does the job as good as, or better than a man, but her being there disrupts the work of 20 or 50 men.

Even though it's not her fault, a woman on a sub could lessen the ability of the rest of the crew, to do their jobs.

Is the it worth being P.C., at the expense of the efficiency and/or risk to life, that it may create?

I am sure the same argument was used against desegregation.
Look how well we've gotten over that?
I am much more concerned about the nutjobs and dirtbags who disrupted more than efficiency on the job.

[2dumb2kwit]

Do y'all think all those young men would be paying attention, to the important things?:innocent:

[Rick]

These are the same tired arguments that men have been tossing around for the last century about one group or another. When we finally take the blinders off and look at what people CAN do we find out that our views of what they CAN'T do might not have been correct.

Women serve on destroyers today. There are plenty of guys in the military that weigh a lot less than 250. There are plenty that weigh less than 200. So is your argument still valid when a 175 lb male is confronted by a 250lb enemy? What's the difference? And riddle me this, batman, why can't a woman perform as well as a sniper or combat medic or pilot or tank driver? Can a woman be a Navy Seal? Given the rigorous training one would think not but then most men don't make the grade either. However, if a woman were able to pass should she be denied because of her sex? How about color or religion since we've had prejudices proved wrong on those, too.

[2dumb2kwit]

These are the same tired arguments that men have been tossing around for the last century about one group or another. When we finally take the blinders off and look at what people CAN do we find out that our views of what they CAN'T do might not have been correct.

Women serve on destroyers today. There are plenty of guys in the military that weigh a lot less than 250. There are plenty that weigh less than 200. So is your argument still valid when a 175 lb male is confronted by a 250lb enemy? What's the difference? And riddle me this, batman, why can't a woman perform as well as a sniper or combat medic or pilot or tank driver? Can a woman be a Navy Seal? Given the rigorous training one would think not but then most men don't make the grade either. However, if a woman were able to pass should she be denied because of her sex? How about color or religion since we've had prejudices proved wrong on those, too.

I don't know the answers.....that's why I'm asking questions...but for the record, I'm not questioning womens ability, I'm questioning what the men can handle. (As far as not being distracted.)

[Justin Case]

My point of the post was not about whether or not a Woman is qualified,, I am sure they are, mine is a question of logistics,, In a Sub, how could/would it work, Like i have seen posted, the Women would have to leave all modesty at the dock, she would have to live like one of the boys , I know the boys wouldn't mind, but how would a woman feel about sharing the shower and toilet with a bunch of men ?

[owl_girl]

science shows that your sex drive gose way down when your life is threaten

[BENESSE]

I don't know the answers.....that's why I'm asking questions...but for the record, I'm not questioning womens ability, I'm questioning what the men can handle. (As far as not being distracted.)

I can also distract you by a 2X4 upside the head.
How would that work for you?:)

[trax]

Do y'all think all those young men would be paying attention, to the important things?:innocent:

Yeah 2dumb, I'm pretty sure if someone was shooting at them, that's what they'd both be paying attention to.

[glockcop]

These are the same tired arguments that men have been tossing around for the last century about one group or another. When we finally take the blinders off and look at what people CAN do we find out that our views of what they CAN'T do might not have been correct.

Women serve on destroyers today. There are plenty of guys in the military that weigh a lot less than 250. There are plenty that weigh less than 200. So is your argument still valid when a 175 lb male is confronted by a 250lb enemy? What's the difference? And riddle me this, batman, why can't a woman perform as well as a sniper or combat medic or pilot or tank driver? Can a woman be a Navy Seal? Given the rigorous training one would think not but then most men don't make the grade either. However, if a woman were able to pass should she be denied because of her sex? How about color or religion since we've had prejudices proved wrong on those, too.

Don't nit pick the numbers. The average women is alot weaker than an average man period. When you are fighting for your life a 175 lb man is still stronger than a 190 lb woman. That strength is gonna give you an edge to stay alive. You may need to go back and reread my #32 and #35 posts to clarify what I'm getting at. Stay safe.

[glockcop]

My point of the post was not about whether or not a Woman is qualified,, I am sure they are, mine is a question of logistics,, In a Sub, how could/would it work, Like i have seen posted, the Women would have to leave all modesty at the dock, she would have to live like one of the boys , I know the boys wouldn't mind, but how would a woman feel about sharing the shower and toilet with a bunch of men ?

This is a non fighting role. I don't want to see women in a fighting/combat role for their and their coworkers benefit. If they want to get stared at in the shower, let em have it.

[trax]

I'm not buying it GC, sorry.One of my best friends is a female federal cop and she's as far as that matters probably about 5'8" and less than 150 pounds and I'd put her up against anybody in hand to hand combat or any other kind of combat.

[owl_girl]

i dont think it would be good if most women had to fight hand to hand combat with men and i dont know much about what its like out there but i thought it was mostly gun fight and bombs. if a women is faster and had good reflexes in a combat situation using weapons would it make up for lack of strength? i think so

[2dumb2kwit]

Yeah 2dumb, I'm pretty sure if someone was shooting at them, that's what they'd both be paying attention to.

I've never been in the military, but I'm pretty sure they would not be getting shot at very often in the sub. What about all that time, when noone is shooting at them?

[Rick]

In the '40s war years there were 26,000 WAVEs in naval aviation. It wasn't until 1972 that the Navy opened flight training programs to women and 1974 before the first women earned their wings. That's truly bizarre if you thing about it. It still would be 20 years, 1994, before the first woman would be assigned to a combat wing. In 2004, the last year that I can find the numbers for there were 519 female pilots, 195 navigators and 600 enlisted crew.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other it just seems absurd that we would deny anyone the opportunity to serve in any capacity they choose as long as they were fully qualified to perform that job.

[trax]

I've only mentioned what I did because other people brought up combat situations. I'm of the opinion that as long as the logistics work in the sub, there's no issue.

I have 13 female employees, so if I'm going to spend my day staring at body parts when I should be working, my employer is going to replace me pretty fast. The distraction thing just doesn't hold up. There were women working in mining in the early '80's when I was up north, it was the same for them as for the guys and the guys working with them, do your job or get out of the way.

[Justin Case]

So should they install separate facilities in a Submarine for the Females ?

[Rick]

By the way, Britain is considering the same thing with their sub program.

"The Australian, Canadian, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian navies already allow women to serve on their submarines"

Perhaps we should ask them how to make it work.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1253466/U-S-Navy-lift-ban-women-serving-aboard-submarines.html

[Camp10]

I think that as long as they understand what they are getting into and can perform their duties, it is fine. When the duties are re-assigned or living quarters, etc are changed to make it "fail safe" then it is a problem. There is no laws or rules keeping women from being linemen where I work but there is only one and from what I have seen and heard from others, she is there only because HR says so.

[2dumb2kwit]

I've only mentioned what I did because other people brought up combat situations. I'm of the opinion that as long as the logistics work in the sub, there's no issue.

I have 13 female employees, so if I'm going to spend my day staring at body parts when I should be working, my employer is going to replace me pretty fast. The distraction thing just doesn't hold up. There were women working in mining in the early '80's when I was up north, it was the same for them as for the guys and the guys working with them, do your job or get out of the way.

That sounds good, but what do you do when you don't have enough people to man (pardon the wording.) the sub? It's my understanding, that the military is already short of people.

[trax]

So should they install separate facilities in a Submarine for the Females ?

I guess I'd need to learn a lot more about submarine architecture to answer that with any kind of rational response. I used mining as an example earlier so....underground bathrooms weren't gender specific, shower and change rooms on surface were.

[Justin Case]

By the way, Britain is considering the same thing with their sub program.

"The Australian, Canadian, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian navies already allow women to serve on their submarines"

Perhaps we should ask them how to make it work.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1253466/U-S-Navy-lift-ban-women-serving-aboard-submarines.html

Good Link Rick

SNIPPET,


The submarine ban was justified on the basis of cramped living conditions and concerns over the dangers of fumes to a foetus if a woman were pregnant.




I guess they will have to make the Subs "Safe" for Women first.

[trax]

By the way, Britain is considering the same thing with their sub program.

"The Australian, Canadian, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian navies already allow women to serve on their submarines"

Perhaps we should ask them how to make it work.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1253466/U-S-Navy-lift-ban-women-serving-aboard-submarines.html

we've got a navy? holy crap when did that happen? (hope they don't let girls in)

[glockcop]

I'm not buying it GC, sorry.One of my best friends is a female federal cop and she's as far as that matters probably about 5'8" and less than 150 pounds and I'd put her up against anybody in hand to hand combat or any other kind of combat.

Buy what you want. I have stated "average" woman more than once in my posts so go back and check if ya need to. Federal cops rarely get into street skuffles. When Feds do "dangerous stuff" they usually go in with about 7 times more personell than the local guys do. Would you like to be a small town cop with a female partner going into a bar fight with 3,4 or 5 guys tearing it up. No, I didn't think so. You ever been rolling around on the ground with two guys trying to get your weapon from you. No, I didn't think so. I could go on and on but I'll spare you the details. I don't make a habit of talking about things I know nothing about. You have no clue. Maybe you can buy one of those. Stay safe.

[Rick]

Oh, come on. That's just cheap. You voice your opinion on anything and everything just like everyone else. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or having been in a given situation to understand that a male or female partner can support you or let you down. If your personal choice is not to serve with a female then so be it but don't assume that no one can have an opinion on a subject because they haven't lived it. I don't have to step out of an airplane without a parachute to know that my life is going to be rather short.

[glockcop]

Oh, come on. That's just cheap. You voice your opinion on anything and everything just like everyone else. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or having been in a given situation to understand that a male or female partner can support you or let you down. If your personal choice is not to serve with a female then so be it but don't assume that no one can have an opinion on a subject because they haven't lived it. I don't have to step out of an airplane without a parachute to know that my life is going to be rather short.

Answer the question. I was not being cheap. It's called realistic. Do you want to go to a bad bar fight with a 120 lb female partner or a man with the same training and backbone. It's a no brainer. Answer it.

[doug1980]

Not that anyone seems to read what I write around here but I still think it would be a bad idea, whether they can do the job or not. I'm not concerned with how the women would adjust but more how the men would react. GI Jane comes to mind but without such a happy ending.

[trax]

Buy what you want. I have stated "average" woman more than once in my posts so go back and check if ya need to. Federal cops rarely get into street skuffles. When Feds do "dangerous stuff" they usually go in with about 7 times more personell than the local guys do. Would you like to be a small town cop with a female partner going into a bar fight with 3,4 or 5 guys tearing it up. No, I didn't think so. You ever been rolling around on the ground with two guys trying to get your weapon from you. No, I didn't think so. I could go on and on but I'll spare you the details. I don't make a habit of talking about things I know nothing about. You have no clue. Maybe you can buy one of those. Stay safe.

Yeah, since you know nothing about what I may or may not have done, spare me the details and just FYI, all over Canada, the federal cops are the local cops and the only cops available. I mentioned her stats because I figured she's about average in size and I know something about scuffles that I've been in (and yes! some involved guns! and I have been rolling around on the ground with 2 guys trying to stick knives in me..) and I know about a few she's been in so, don't be telling me what I don't have a clue about when you don't know jack about me.

[glockcop]

I did say I have no problem with women in non fighting (hand to hand) roles. Fighter pilot? Go ahead, give her a shot, no problem. Medic? no prob. Whatever a women wants to do in non hand to hand fighting role I'm all for. Stay away from the nasty ground fighting though. If you read my previous posts more carefully you might have caught that.

[trax]

I did say I have no problem with women in non fighting (hand to hand) roles. Fighter pilot? Go ahead, give her a shot, no problem. Medic? no prob. Whatever a women wants to do in non hand to hand fighting role I'm all for. Stay away from the nasty ground fighting though. If you read my previous posts more carefully you might have caught that.

Well, it's pretty much a moot point anyway now isn't it? I mean now that you've cleared up for us that you're the one here with a clue. Did you get it out of your big bag of clues?

[Sarge47]

Women in combat? Are you kidding me? C'mon guys, all's the enemy would have to do is throw a bunch of credit cards at 'em and they'd drop their weapons and run off to go shopping! :innocent: And what could they do on a sub? Polish torpedos? :sneaky2:

Seriously though, have any of you ever watched the movie: "Enemy at the Gates?" Russia used women in combat roles during WWII & boy did they ever kick some Nazi butt! I say Every American, man or woman, has the right to decide for themselves.

One of our bus drivers is a retired cop. He was the 1st BLACK police officer to serve here, & boy did he get a lot of crap from all the white cops. Finally, after years of patience, he managed to fit in. Then they hired the 1st woman police officer & it started all over again. I say it's their choice, & besides, if you're running the risk of getting shot in the next few minutes, who wouldn't want a nice-looking chick next to you to give you mouth-to-mouth? Just sayin'....:cool2:

[glockcop]

Yeah, since you know nothing about what I may or may not have done, spare me the details and just FYI, all over Canada, the federal cops are the local cops and the only cops available. I mentioned her stats because I figured she's about average in size and I know something about scuffles that I've been in (and yes! some involved guns! and I have been rolling around on the ground with 2 guys trying to stick knives in me..) and I know about a few she's been in so, don't be telling me what I don't have a clue about when you don't know jack about me.

Like wise, I ain't going for it. If you were rolling around on the ground with two guys with knives and you did not get stuck they must have been quadraplegics. We all know about the astronomical crime wave/gang problem in Canada. Give me a break. Move to a real inner city and you'll know what life in a domestic combat zone is. Regretably New Orleans has had one of the highest murder/rape/robbery rates in the nation for years because of the real life scum bag criminals that call it home. Yes, I know what I'm talking about cause I've been in it as a cop for 16 years of my life. I'm not going to argue with you because there is no argument. Have a nice day.

[glockcop]

Well, it's pretty much a moot point anyway now isn't it? I mean now that you've cleared up for us that you're the one here with a clue. Did you get it out of your big bag of clues?

I did not direct my, "you have no clue", statement toward anyone but you. Reread if you must. I do have a big bag of them with extras to spare for you. All you have to do is ask nicely for one. Have a nice day.

[trax]

I did not direct my, "you have no clue", statement toward anyone but you. Reread if you must. I do have a big bag of them with extras to spare for you. All you have to do is ask nicely for one. Have a nice day.

Yeah I'm sure you've got a big bag of something alright. I guess you can call 'em clues if you get clues by scraping them out of a stable. And even though I ever so gently pointed out that you know nothing about me or my friend the police officer, or the Canadian police system, all of which apparently didn't qualify for a response, I'd say that's probably where you get your clues from. I am having a nice day, you have one too.

[finallyME]

Uh,glockcop??? My son graduated basic training 3 years ago,and the females who graduated with him had the same EXACT training as the men in their unit,same for AIT, they were expected to do exactly what the men in their unit did,no exceptions.

This is not true. The women have different physical standards then the men.

[finallyME]

i dont think it would be good if most women had to fight hand to hand combat with men and i dont know much about what its like out there but i thought it was mostly gun fight and bombs. if a women is faster and had good reflexes in a combat situation using weapons would it make up for lack of strength? i think so


You are right. Combat is mostly not hand to hand. But to employ guns, you have to carry the ammo. There is a difference between how much weight a male soldier can carry versus a female one.

[nell67]

This is not true. The women have different physical standards then the men.
The women were treated no differently than the men during their basic training,one woman recieved a waiver for height requirement,but other than that,she did the SAME training my son did.

[trax]

Like wise, I ain't going for it. If you were rolling around on the ground with two guys with knives and you did not get stuck they must have been quadraplegics. We all know about the astronomical crime wave/gang problem in Canada. Give me a break. Move to a real inner city and you'll know what life in a domestic combat zone is. Regretably New Orleans has had one of the highest murder/rape/robbery rates in the nation for years because of the real life scum bag criminals that call it home. Yes, I know what I'm talking about cause I've been in it as a cop for 16 years of my life. I'm not going to argue with you because there is no argument. Have a nice day.

ohhhh, how did I miss this? and how do you know I didn't get stuck? and guess what smart boy, if you walk into an inner city apartment and some gangbanger pops you with a nine mil, you aren't any more dead than an Inuit in an igloo popping you with a .30-30. If being such a bada$$ cop was so trying on you, then you shouldn't have done it, and I don't see where you whining about it has anything to do with women in submarines, you have a nice day too

[crashdive123]

The question of allowing women to serve on submarines has been asked for a long time. Obviously it is still being asked. I will tell you that a majority of submarine sailors are against it, and an even larger majority of submarine sailor’s wives are against this.

That being said, here are my personal opinions on the subject with a couple of “sea stories” and a little about life on a submarine that may help shed some light on the subject.

My personal opinion is that any professional sailor – male or female – should be allowed to serve in any position that they are qualified to serve in. I also believe that standards, both physical and mental, should not be adjusted to accommodate any group. Among my peers, that is probably a minority opinion, but so be it.

Here are a couple of stories of some experiences that I had that emphasize the difficulty in something like this taking place.

1. First a little about submarines. The Tridents are the bigger missile submarines. Where do people sleep? This class of ship is divided up into compartments, the largest being the missile compartment. Most of the crew sleeps in 9-man (that terminology may have to change) bunk rooms. A bunk room is nothing more than 9 metal bunk pans stacked 3 high stuffed between two missile tubes. The bunks – or racks as they are affectionately referred to have curtains to provide a little privacy. All of your possessions – for the entire deployment are stored in your bunk pan (below the mattress) that is about 4 inches deep, plus a small drawer. There is a curtain on the entrance of a bunk room that leads into a passageway, where the lights must stay on in order for people to do their jobs. There are two heads (bathrooms), one forward and one aft. Each has two showers and two commodes. Because of mission requirements, sometimes temporary bunks are provided. They may be in the Torpedo Room beneath Torpedoes stored on racks, or tucked away behind equipment. Usually though, as is common in the smaller submarines Hot Racking takes place. Three people are assigned to two racks. When it’s your turn to sleep, you do. When it’s not your turn to sleep, you don’t. That’s it – for about 160 people. On the Fast Attack Submarines the living conditions are much closer.

2. In the 90’s I was serving on a submarine as the Leading Chief of Navigation/Operations Department, along with several other duties. We took on a group of US Senators for a three day dog and pony show. While standing watch as Diving Officer, in a crowded control room, the Senators were making their rounds and talking to the Sailors. Senator Inouye from Hawaii, escorted by the commanding officer, asked if he could talk to me for a while without interfering with my job. We began to talk on a variety of topics. After about an hour he asked me what my opinion was of women serving on submarines. I repeated exactly what I said above. He acted surprised and said that he had not met another Chief that held the same opinion that I did. I explained that while serving on a submarine had some physical demands, most were psychological and physiological. I went on to say that I did not think is was a prudent use of taxpayer dollars to spend the 20 to 40 million dollars to retrofit a Trident Submarine to accommodate somebody of the opposite sex. A professional sailor is a professional sailor and should be treated as such. He said that there would have to be separate berthing and heads to accommodate females or else it would not work. I asked him why? He seemed a little lost for words but managed to say that he had seen the berthing area, and that there was no privacy. During one of the ships casualty drills that he had observed he saw people scrambling from their bunks, headed to their assigned station within seconds. He said that most were in various stages of undress, getting dressed along the way. He seemed a bit embarrassed when he said – there was a lot of nakedness in the first 20 feet after exiting a bunk room. He also said that there was no way that male and female sailors could not use the same heads. I asked again, why not? Once again he seemed a bit embarrassed as he said there could be a lot of sexual tension in a situation like that. I told him that I disagreed, and reiterated my point about professional sailors. He told me I was wrong. I then asked Senator Inouye how that was any different with him wanting to allow homosexuals to serve openly in the military. I was not allowed to speak to Senator Inouye any more.

3. I was serving on shore duty at a training command. In addition to being the Leading Chief of the Strategic Navigation Advanced Training Division, I was a member of the Command Training Team. As a member of that team we taught various courses, among them Sexual Harassment Awareness (not a how to course) and Navy Rights And Responsibilities. My Department Head (boss) was a female Commander (equivalent to Lieutenant Colonel). One of the modules of that course was titled Women in the Navy. She always taught that section. In a class of about 30, with the Commander at the front of the class, and myself and two other instructors that the back she began. She lamented how she was sick and tired of the stereotypical image that women in the Navy that became pregnant did so to get out of going on deployment. A young female sailor raised her hand. She was a Third Class Petty Officer. The differences in their rank was miles apart. She said, “With all due respect ma’am, you don’t know what you’re talking about.” The Commander, clearly upset asked what she meant. The young sailor told her that she, along with all women were counseled on their obligations to the Navy and family planning. She said that she and her husband were planning on starting a family when she was first eligible f or shore duty, as it would not interfere with her obligations to do her job. She had been stationed on the Submarine Tender and was injured in an industrial accident that required extensive surgery and 18 months of rehabilitation before she would be able to return to sea. She said that she had met almost every woman stationed aboard that ship. That class of ship did not get underway all that often. Prior to their last at sea period seventy women were transferred (cannot go to sea if you are pregnant). She knew everyone of them, and all but two got pregnant to keep from going to sea. The Commander told me to take the rest of the class, and abruptly walked out.

I still believe that anybody that is qualified to do a job should be allowed to do it – just don’t change any of the standards to accommodate any social engineering that political factions may want to achieve. Lives may depend on it.

[glockcop]

Yeah I'm sure you've got a big bag of something alright. I guess you can call 'em clues if you get clues by scraping them out of a stable. And even though I ever so gently pointed out that you know nothing about me or my friend the police officer, or the Canadian police system, all of which apparently didn't qualify for a response, I'd say that's probably where you get your clues from. I am having a nice day, you have one too.

I'm getting "clues" from you, your friends and the Canadian police system?? Calm down. Your continuing to not make sense. You last post reminded me of the ramblings of an frustrated and angry child with no outlet. My not knowing much about the Canadian police system is a direct result of my having no need or care to know, actually. How's that for a response? Was that gentile enough? Please oh please tell me some more stories. Have a good day.

[finallyME]

The women were treated no differently than the men during their basic training,one woman recieved a waiver for height requirement,but other than that,she did the SAME training my son did.

She didn't have to pass the same requirements. She had a slower required run time, and a lower push-up requirement. The sit-up requirement is the same. She also carried less weight on ruck marches. During morning PT, everyone is together, until they split up for the run. There are generally three running groups. The slowest group doesn't allow men in it (I know, I tried). Women are never in the fast group (well, I never saw one). I also never saw a female stay in the run when we ran more than 5 miles. My experience with morning runs is anecdotal, and just my observation, but the PT standards are Army wide and different depending on sex. The Army recognizes that women are not naturally as strong, and have adjusted their standards accordingly.

Here is a link to PT standards for males http://usmilitary.about.com/od/army/l/blfitmale17to21.htm

Here is a link for PT standards for females http://usmilitary.about.com/od/army/l/blfitfem17to21.htm

A male has to do 22 push-ups, 53 sit-ups, and run 2 miles in 15:54.
A female has to do 19 push-ups, 53 sit-ups, and run 2 miles in 18:54

[glockcop]

ohhhh, how did I miss this? and how do you know I didn't get stuck? and guess what smart boy, if you walk into an inner city apartment and some gangbanger pops you with a nine mil, you aren't any more dead than an Inuit in an igloo popping you with a .30-30. If being such a bada$$ cop was so trying on you, then you shouldn't have done it, and I don't see where you whining about it has anything to do with women in submarines, you have a nice day too

You missed this because you didn't ask for a clue. I like my job alot and I'm not whinning about it. just stating facts. If you were 'stuck" I'm sure you would have offered that tid bit of info in your great story. That is how I know you were not. It's called "Detective work". And you are right. This has nothing to do with women on subs. You came at me with your, "I ain't buying it" crap. I only defended my position on the subject. It would suit me just fine to get back on topic and give you some time to regain your composure. Thanks.

[BENESSE]

I still believe that anybody that is qualified to do a job should be allowed to do it – just don’t change any of the standards to accommodate any social engineering that political factions may want to achieve. Lives may depend on it.

Right on crash!
Thanks for that view and thanks for the stories.
I of course agree, but was willing to keep an open mind based on "boots on the water" experience.

[trax]

I'm getting "clues" from you, your friends and the Canadian police system?? Calm down. Your continuing to not make sense. You last post reminded me of the ramblings of an frustrated and angry child with no outlet. My not knowing much about the Canadian police system is a direct result of my having no need or care to know, actually. How's that for a response? Was that gentile enough? Please oh please tell me some more stories. Have a good day.

and yet you feel qualified to babble on about me, my friend and the Canadian police system and say that I'm the one rambling like a frustrated and angry child? I don't get angry,by the way but I do have an almost unhealthy interest in studying stupidity. You admit you have no need or care to know about something and yet have this full blown opinion....Your responses are about as valid and important to me as your big bag of clues, I think you get your opinions and your clues off the same stable floor personally. And you don't really have to keep telling me to have a good day, you're not writing traffic tickets here, but you have a good day too

[Justin Case]

The question of allowing women to serve on submarines has been asked for a long time. Obviously it is still being asked. I will tell you that a majority of submarine sailors are against it, and an even larger majority of submarine sailor’s wives are against this.

That being said, here are my personal opinions on the subject with a couple of “sea stories” and a little about life on a submarine that may help shed some light on the subject.

My personal opinion is that any professional sailor – male or female – should be allowed to serve in any position that they are qualified to serve in. I also believe that standards, both physical and mental, should not be adjusted to accommodate any group. Among my peers, that is probably a minority opinion, but so be it.

Here are a couple of stories of some experiences that I had that emphasize the difficulty in something like this taking place.

1. First a little about submarines. The Tridents are the bigger missile submarines. Where do people sleep? This class of ship is divided up into compartments, the largest being the missile compartment. Most of the crew sleeps in 9-man (that terminology may have to change) bunk rooms. A bunk room is nothing more than 9 metal bunk pans stacked 3 high stuffed between two missile tubes. The bunks – or racks as they are affectionately referred to have curtains to provide a little privacy. All of your possessions – for the entire deployment are stored in your bunk pan (below the mattress) that is about 4 inches deep, plus a small drawer. There is a curtain on the entrance of a bunk room that leads into a passageway, where the lights must stay on in order for people to do their jobs. There are two heads (bathrooms), one forward and one aft. Each has two showers and two commodes. Because of mission requirements, sometimes temporary bunks are provided. They may be in the Torpedo Room beneath Torpedoes stored on racks, or tucked away behind equipment. Usually though, as is common in the smaller submarines Hot Racking takes place. Three people are assigned to two racks. When it’s your turn to sleep, you do. When it’s not your turn to sleep, you don’t. That’s it – for about 160 people. On the Fast Attack Submarines the living conditions are much closer.

2. In the 90’s I was serving on a submarine as the Leading Chief of Navigation/Operations Department, along with several other duties. We took on a group of US Senators for a three day dog and pony show. While standing watch as Diving Officer, in a crowded control room, the Senators were making their rounds and talking to the Sailors. Senator Inouye from Hawaii, escorted by the commanding officer, asked if he could talk to me for a while without interfering with my job. We began to talk on a variety of topics. After about an hour he asked me what my opinion was of women serving on submarines. I repeated exactly what I said above. He acted surprised and said that he had not met another Chief that held the same opinion that I did. I explained that while serving on a submarine had some physical demands, most were psychological and physiological. I went on to say that I did not think is was a prudent use of taxpayer dollars to spend the 20 to 40 million dollars to retrofit a Trident Submarine to accommodate somebody of the opposite sex. A professional sailor is a professional sailor and should be treated as such. He said that there would have to be separate berthing and heads to accommodate females or else it would not work. I asked him why? He seemed a little lost for words but managed to say that he had seen the berthing area, and that there was no privacy. During one of the ships casualty drills that he had observed he saw people scrambling from their bunks, headed to their assigned station within seconds. He said that most were in various stages of undress, getting dressed along the way. He seemed a bit embarrassed when he said – there was a lot of nakedness in the first 20 feet after exiting a bunk room. He also said that there was no way that male and female sailors could not use the same heads. I asked again, why not? Once again he seemed a bit embarrassed as he said there could be a lot of sexual tension in a situation like that. I told him that I disagreed, and reiterated my point about professional sailors. He told me I was wrong. I then asked Senator Inouye how that was any different with him wanting to allow homosexuals to serve openly in the military. I was not allowed to speak to Senator Inouye any more.

3. I was serving on shore duty at a training command. In addition to being the Leading Chief of the Strategic Navigation Advanced Training Division, I was a member of the Command Training Team. As a member of that team we taught various courses, among them Sexual Harassment Awareness (not a how to course) and Navy Rights And Responsibilities. My Department Head (boss) was a female Commander (equivalent to Lieutenant Colonel). One of the modules of that course was titled Women in the Navy. She always taught that section. In a class of about 30, with the Commander at the front of the class, and myself and two other instructors that the back she began. She lamented how she was sick and tired of the stereotypical image that women in the Navy that became pregnant did so to get out of going on deployment. A young female sailor raised her hand. She was a Third Class Petty Officer. The differences in their rank was miles apart. She said, “With all due respect ma’am, you don’t know what you’re talking about.” The Commander, clearly upset asked what she meant. The young sailor told her that she, along with all women were counseled on their obligations to the Navy and family planning. She said that she and her husband were planning on starting a family when she was first eligible f or shore duty, as it would not interfere with her obligations to do her job. She had been stationed on the Submarine Tender and was injured in an industrial accident that required extensive surgery and 18 months of rehabilitation before she would be able to return to sea. She said that she had met almost every woman stationed aboard that ship. That class of ship did not get underway all that often. Prior to their last at sea period seventy women were transferred (cannot go to sea if you are pregnant). She knew everyone of them, and all but two got pregnant to keep from going to sea. The Commander told me to take the rest of the class, and abruptly walked out.

I still believe that anybody that is qualified to do a job should be allowed to do it – just don’t change any of the standards to accommodate any social engineering that political factions may want to achieve. Lives may depend on it.

Thank you crash,, Thats what I wanted to know :clap:

[Rick]

Answer the question. I was not being cheap. It's called realistic. Do you want to go to a bad bar fight with a 120 lb female partner or a man with the same training and backbone. It's a no brainer. Answer it.

No problem. I would go into that situation regardless of who my partner was.

You are making it sound as if you have no other tools other than fisticuffs available at your disposal and the only option it to kick butt and take names. I assume you will go into that situation with a mouth, mace and a taser. If you can't talk through the situation then you will, obviously, resort to one or the other alternatives or both. Your partner will also be so equipped so he or she will be doing the same thing. Don't all of your officers, male and female, receive the same self defense training?

At the same time, you are going to radio in for support when you see that you are outnumbered. Did I forget anything?

[Justin Case]

Actually , having a female partner with you in a situation like that may be an advantage , she could probably be justified in drawing her weapon sooner? (escalation of force and all that )


I dont KNOW this, Its just a thought , :innocent:

[trax]

No problem. I would go into that situation regardless of who my partner was.

You are making it sound as if you have no other tools other than fisticuffs available at your disposal and the only option it to kick butt and take names. I assume you will go into that situation with a mouth, mace and a taser. If you can't talk through the situation then you will, obviously, resort to one or the other alternatives or both. Your partner will also be so equipped so he or she will be doing the same thing. Don't all of your officers, male and female, receive the same self defense training?

At the same time, you are going to radio in for support when you see that you are outnumbered. Did I forget anything?

did you forget anything? did you forget anything? HOW ABOUT 16 YEARS EXPERIENCE OF BEING ON THE ONLY POLICE FORCE IN THE WORLD THAT'S HAD TO CONFRONT BAD GUYS MISTER!! HOW ABOUT THAT?? DID YOU DO THAT?? ISN'T THAT A LITTLE SOMETHING YOU FORGOT??

[Rick]

Oh, yea, that. Well, the bad guys in Traxistan are sort of a different breed.

http://thechuckler.com/wp-content/uploads/retro/565blog_midget_dwarf_crimin.gif

[trax]

Bad guys? That right there was Capitol Building security, folks

[Justin Case]

Here we go,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2ttd48u0J0

[glockcop]

did you forget anything? did you forget anything? HOW ABOUT 16 YEARS EXPERIENCE OF BEING ON THE ONLY POLICE FORCE IN THE WORLD THAT'S HAD TO CONFRONT BAD GUYS MISTER!! HOW ABOUT THAT?? DID YOU DO THAT?? ISN'T THAT A LITTLE SOMETHING YOU FORGOT??

No body said anything like this. Where are you from Mars. Basic comprehension skills from things you just read seem to evade you. Take a pill psyco.

[glockcop]

and yet you feel qualified to babble on about me, my friend and the Canadian police system and say that I'm the one rambling like a frustrated and angry child? I don't get angry,by the way but I do have an almost unhealthy interest in studying stupidity. You admit you have no need or care to know about something and yet have this full blown opinion....Your responses are about as valid and important to me as your big bag of clues, I think you get your opinions and your clues off the same stable floor personally. And you don't really have to keep telling me to have a good day, you're not writing traffic tickets here, but you have a good day too

I'm not babling about you. I just made an observation that you are obviously frustrated and need an outlet. Try a hooker and a stiff drink. You will have to buy both along with that clue you so desperately need. I did not give any opinion on the Canadian police system so what the hell are you dribbling about. Think about that drink man. You really need to chill before the Mounties bring you to Disneyland. Can we get back on topic now? No body is enjoying your irrational fencing. Later

[crashdive123]

Enough! If y'all can't have a civil disagreement, then stop posting and go to your room.

[glockcop]

Enough! If y'all can't have a civil disagreement, then stop posting and go to your room.

Thanks Crash.

[glockcop]

No problem. I would go into that situation regardless of who my partner was.

You are making it sound as if you have no other tools other than fisticuffs available at your disposal and the only option it to kick butt and take names. I assume you will go into that situation with a mouth, mace and a taser. If you can't talk through the situation then you will, obviously, resort to one or the other alternatives or both. Your partner will also be so equipped so he or she will be doing the same thing. Don't all of your officers, male and female, receive the same self defense training?

At the same time, you are going to radio in for support when you see that you are outnumbered. Did I forget anything?

You are correct on all counts, Sir. One thing is that by the time your ''support'' gets there, things could have gotten real bad because you were trying to help your female partner defend her gun from a 185 lb male that took her gun and shot both of you. I realize that this is an extreme example but a plausable one none the less. It may be hard for alot of folks to understand but stuff like this is what the training books are made from. Real bad stuff happens when you least expect it no matter how unlikey. You cannot free up a hand to go for your tazer or call for back up when the bad guy has both of his hands on your gun. In the mean time his friends are kicking the sh*t out of you and your female partner because she was unable to defend a weapon snach from a much larger person. All the things you stated "wrap it all up" in a neat package but things ain't that neat out there. I will say this again and leave this conversation alone....I have no problem with women in the military or police work as long as it is not in a role where hand to hand combat is likely. This is the point I've been trying to get at but obviously not gotten across. Stay safe, Brother.


PS I OFFICIALLY SAY "SORRY" TO ANYONE I MAY HAVE PISSED OFF. YALL TAKE CARE.

[Sarge47]

You are correct on all counts, Sir. One thing is that by the time your ''support'' gets there, things could have gotten real bad because you were trying to help your female partner defend her gun from a 185 lb male that took her gun and shot both of you.

With all due respect, Gc, I don't think anybody, and that includes you, has the right to make that decision for others. The same scenario can just as easy happen to two men. Some women are more effective than men and some men are about as effective as a screen door on that very same submarine. This is America, not a dictatorship; let the ladies decide for themselves. My understanding is that you can refuse to work with a partner if you so desire; if that's true and the idea bothers you that much then maybe that's the way you should go. :cool2:

[Sarge47]

This is in regards to Finally ME's posts. Historically, women were protected by the community because of their ability to bear children. If you want the group to grow, then you must keep replenishing it. According to my Soc. 101 Professor, Barny Hopkins, the ability to bear children is what makes a woman weaker than a man. I guess he's never seen those women bodybuilders that make Arnold Swartzeneger look like a 98 lb. weakling.


I also know the view of your folks in Utah, about the high values that they place on family, & that is very commendable. However, throughout history, women have proven themselves a valuable asset in combat situations. I personally think it would make a great topic for a study if somebody could do it keeping a totally objective view while doing it. :cool2:

Finally, let's keep it civil folks, we don't want the New Orleans Police to raid Free Traxistan now, do we? :sneaky2:

[trax]

Finally, let's keep it civil folks, we don't want the New Orleans Police to raid Free Traxistan now, do we? :sneaky2:

I'd be more concerned about real cops, like the RCMP. I didn't tell the great defective about being stuck because it really wasn't what the conversation was supposed to be about, but for the record, if anyone gives a sh!t, it was 34 years ago and my kidney still hurts where I got it and I spent a goodly deal of time in the hospital. I've also been shot at twice, (on separate occassions) but they missed and i didn't have anything to shoot back with. I've also had two other times when guys tried pulling knives on me, but I managed to remain uninjured, one time because of a third party's interference. I'm also not the person who's insulting other members with misspelled insults, but if it makes the great defective feel better, I'm pretty sure I can take it, since he and his opinions really don't matter to me. Have a nice day

Oh and Crash, thanks for the relevant info.

[BLEUXDOG]

If a woman wants to spend time in a sub, then let her. Be careful what you ask for. They'll probably never go back.
I have worked with men loading and unloading trucks and aircraft for years. There is no "Lady's" room on a C-130.

When I was on my way to an overseas deployment I stayed in the Danish quarters. They had unisex bathrooms and showers. I have been stuck out on the flightline for 8 hours with no bathroom in sight.

If you want to do a man's job don't complain when they want you to play by the same rules.

[glockcop]

I'd be more concerned about real cops, like the RCMP. I didn't tell the great defective about being stuck because it really wasn't what the conversation was supposed to be about, but for the record, if anyone gives a sh!t, it was 34 years ago and my kidney still hurts where I got it and I spent a goodly deal of time in the hospital. I've also been shot at twice, (on separate occassions) but they missed and i didn't have anything to shoot back with. I've also had two other times when guys tried pulling knives on me, but I managed to remain uninjured, one time because of a third party's interference. I'm also not the person who's insulting other members with misspelled insults, but if it makes the great defective feel better, I'm pretty sure I can take it, since he and his opinions really don't matter to me. Have a nice day

Oh and Crash, thanks for the relevant info.

If you cannot handle me expressing my opinion than you have a real problem and it ain't me. Talking about relevant info... I don't think your story contributed anything to this topic either. We can keep up this p*ssing match all day if you like. Just for the record, I'd like to see you go up to an NOPD officer and tell him that "He is not the real police and that the RCMP is". I am sure he will be so adversely affected he'd probably cry. Yeh, cry out in laughter. Hell, go try it in L.A., Chicago, or New York. Results will be similar. I already said I'd like to move on and get back to the topic. Surely nobody is enjoying the tantrum. A Moderator already stepped in to call "peace". I already said "sorry". If you can't accept it you must still be angry. Now, asking nicely, get off my a$$ and back on topic. Take care.

[finallyME]

However, throughout history, women have proven themselves a valuable asset in combat situations. I personally think it would make a great topic for a study if somebody could do it keeping a totally objective view while doing it. :cool2:


Maybe an all female unit? That way there would be no way to say that the men carried the weight. An all female sub would also solve some of the issues that others have expressed in terms of privacy or uncontrolled sexual tendencies.

[glockcop]

With all due respect, Gc, I don't think anybody, and that includes you, has the right to make that decision for others. The same scenario can just as easy happen to two men. Some women are more effective than men and some men are about as effective as a screen door on that very same submarine. This is America, not a dictatorship; let the ladies decide for themselves. My understanding is that you can refuse to work with a partner if you so desire; if that's true and the idea bothers you that much then maybe that's the way you should go. :cool2:

I do not have the authority to make that descision. This is a forum. I expressed an opinion. Just to clarify, an officer does not have a choice in his partner. It is a major pain in the a$$ to try to have a partner replaced. I also am good friends with a female officer who got hurt real bad doing her job and quit (Her department rides solo). She will be the first to admit that she got hurt because she was over powered on a domestic dispute by an average size joe with no super powers. She could not free her hands to get to her weapon/tazer/batton/spray and calling for back up via radio was not an option. Those optional tools on the bat belt sound great in theory but in action it may not be possible. Same for a man, but In my opinion a man would have been more evenly matched physically with that average size joe perp. The guy's wife even tried to help "Colleen" to no avail. If this were two men on one man it does not take a rocket scientist to realize the outcome would have been different. "Colleen" getting hurt in this scenario was not an opinion but a fact. Draw from it what you will. I do not have the source to prove this anymore but in a study done years ago, it showed that more female officers get hurt in a "resisting arrest" situation than male officers. That is all the info I remember. I did say that I am all for a women doing any job she would like as long as it does not involve hand to hand combat potential. I am not trying to argue with any one. Like I said already, I am stating my opinion. Everybody has one but mine is just the least popular one. Does what I think affect anyone on the job? NO. Take care, Brother.

[Justin Case]

I am NOT trying to stir the pot here, but I got interested and this seems pertinent

POLICE FOUNDATION

RESEARCH BRIEF

POLICEWOMEN ON PATROL

This study demonstrates that gender is not a valid reason to bar women from patrol work. Women perform patrol tasks as well as men. The attitudes and behaviors of some male officers, however, may create personnel problems if not properly addressed by managers.

http://www.policefoundation.org/docs/policewomen.html

[Rick]

If this were two men on one man it does not take a rocket scientist to realize the outcome would have been different. "Colleen" getting hurt in this scenario was not an opinion but a fact.

You went from a woman on patrol by herself to two men. Of course it doesn't take a rocket scientist. But two women would have had a different outcome as would a woman and a male partner. We had a local officer shot in the head last year. He was also alone. They wrestled and the officer got the worst of it. It happens. It's horrible but it happens to all genders. I just don't buy your argument. Sorry.

[glockcop]

I am NOT trying to stir the pot here, but I got interested and this seems pertinent

POLICE FOUNDATION

RESEARCH BRIEF

POLICEWOMEN ON PATROL

This study demonstrates that gender is not a valid reason to bar women from patrol work. Women perform patrol tasks as well as men. The attitudes and behaviors of some male officers, however, may create personnel problems if not properly addressed by managers.

http://www.policefoundation.org/docs/policewomen.html

Not stirring the pot at all. "Patrol tasks" involve jumping calls and community policing for the most part, but IMO when it comes down to an arrest going bad, women have more of a disadvantage because they are more likely to get trouble/attacked from the bad guy. When that trouble strikes (especially in solo officer units) a woman is more likely to get hurt. Comparing riding/observing from your unit to fighting a perp is apples and oranges IMO. It would be interesting to see a number of women officers polled and asked if they feel safer with a male partner or a female partner. I have no way of knowing the outcome but I have a good idea. Maybe I will do so in my own Department and let yall know.

[glockcop]

You went from a woman on patrol by herself to two men. Of course it doesn't take a rocket scientist. But two women would have had a different outcome as would a woman and a male partner. We had a local officer shot in the head last year. He was also alone. They wrestled and the officer got the worst of it. It happens. It's horrible but it happens to all genders. I just don't buy your argument. Sorry.

The "two men" I was talking about was a comparison to the female officer and the wife that was trying to help her fight this one male perp. If those two women(officer and wife) were 2 men fighting that one male perp the outcome would be different more times than not. Maybe that was not clear.

[Justin Case]

Not stirring the pot at all. "Patrol tasks" involve jumping calls and community policing for the most part, but IMO when it comes down to an arrest going bad, women have more of a disadvantage because they are more likely to get trouble/attacked from the bad guy. When that trouble strikes (especially in solo officer units) a woman is more likely to get hurt. Comparing riding/observing from your unit to fighting a perp is apples and oranges IMO. It would be interesting to see a number of women officers polled and asked if they feel safer with a male partner or a female partner. I have no way of knowing the outcome but I have a good idea. Maybe I will do so in my own Department and let yall know.

another excerpt from that link in the above post,

Snip.

MAJOR FINDINGS
The evaluation demonstrated that gender is not a valid reason to exclude women from police patrol work.

* Both female and male patrol officers responded to similar kinds of calls for service and encountered the same number of dangerous, angry, upset, drunk, or violent citizens. Although both groups obtained similar results when handling angry or violent citizens, the study noted that women patrol officers tended to be more effective than their male counterparts in avoiding violence and defusing potentially violent situations.

MORE, http://www.policefoundation.org/docs/policewomen.html

[glockcop]

Update*****

I just asked 5 female officers (3 in the rec room doing reports, 2 on the phone) if they would feel safer in a brawl/fight situation with a 155 lb male partner or a 155 lb female partner. All Five replied without hesitation, "MALE!". I realize this is a very small poll but it proves a point. That point being that female officers know their physical limitations and in the back of their mind they want a man (stronger person) to back them up in a fight. All five also said they realize that a man is stronger and more capable in a fight but they feel secure enough to do their job because of their equipment. I asked, if the equipment was unable to be accessed, who do they think would prevail in this situation. All five again said, the "MALE" officer. I think this info comming from the horses mouth (five female officers) is very interesting. Yall take care.

[glockcop]

another excerpt from that link in the above post,

Snip.

MAJOR FINDINGS
The evaluation demonstrated that gender is not a valid reason to exclude women from police patrol work.

* Both female and male patrol officers responded to similar kinds of calls for service and encountered the same number of dangerous, angry, upset, drunk, or violent citizens. Although both groups obtained similar results when handling angry or violent citizens, the study noted that women patrol officers tended to be more effective than their male counterparts in avoiding violence and defusing potentially violent situations.

MORE, http://www.policefoundation.org/docs/policewomen.html

Not IME. Read post 107 please. The female officer may be more likely not to get into a hand to hand combat type of situation in the first place but when they do it ain't gonna be nice for the most part. Your findings are all well and good when the sh*t ain't hitting the fan, but when the bad guy goes to fighting, a female officer is more likely to get hurt and they realize such.

[Justin Case]

Not IME. Read post 107 please.

Well I must admit, If I had a choice of who i would rather go back to back with in a fight, it would be another Male,, for a couple of reasons, one, they ARE pound for pound stronger and two, Most Guys "Like" to fight and have been fighting ever since grade school,,,,, Women, (for the most part) talk about things they have seen on Oprah or the latest greatest diet, where Men (for the most part) talk about Ultimate Fighting on Spike tv or Sundays football game,, Men are inherently more Violent ,, In my Humble Opinion :)

[glockcop]

Well I must admit, If I had a choice of who i would rather go back to back with in a fight, it would be another Male,, for a couple of reasons, one, they ARE pound for pound stronger and two, Most Guys "Like" to fight and have been fighting ever since grade school,,,,, Women, (for the most part) talk about things they have seen on Oprah or the latest greatest diet, where Men (for the most part) talk about Ultimate Fighting on Spike tv or Sundays football game,, Men are inherently more Violent ,, In my Humble Opinion :)

Very much agreed on all points. I want everyone involved in this conversation to realize that I am not attempting to sway anyone's view on the subject. I am expressing my opinion and mine alone. I have thrown in a small pole from 5 female officers for flavor but your opinion is yours and I AM NOT trying to change it. I do not want to be put to the fire for my views. Everyone else's view is just as valid. If I have come across in such a way, that was not my intention. IMO diverse views are healthy exposure. Yall take care.

[Justin Case]

Very much agreed on all points. I want everyone involved in this conversation to realize that I am not attempting to sway anyone's view on the subject. I am expressing my opinion and mine alone. I have thrown in a small pole from 5 female officers for flavor but your opinion is yours and I AM NOT trying to change it. I do not want to be put to the fire for my views. Everyone else's view is just as valid. If I have come across in such a way, that was not my intention. IMO diverse views are healthy exposure. Yall take care.

Nobody agrees on everything,,, If we did, we would have UHC ,, :sneaky2:

[glockcop]

Ultimate Hug Championship? That would be something to see. My money is on the female:). Be safe, Brother.

Gotta get back to work. Chat yall later.

[BENESSE]

Most Guys "Like" to fight and have been fighting ever since grade school,,,,, Women, (for the most part) talk about things they have seen on Oprah or the latest greatest diet, where Men (for the most part) talk about Ultimate Fighting on Spike tv or Sundays football game,, Men are inherently more Violent ,, In my Humble Opinion :)

God-A-Mighty where do you live,
and what kind of people (men & women) are you
hanging out with to think like that?

That is SO far from my experience that I can't
even comment really, I am just amazed.

[Sarge47]

Well I must admit, If I had a choice of who i would rather go back to back with in a fight, it would be another Male,, for a couple of reasons, one, they ARE pound for pound stronger and two, Most Guys "Like" to fight and have been fighting ever since grade school,,,,, Women, (for the most part) talk about things they have seen on Oprah or the latest greatest diet, where Men (for the most part) talk about Ultimate Fighting on Spike tv or Sundays football game,, Men are inherently more Violent ,, In my Humble Opinion :)

That's just plain shallow, man! It's obvious to me that you never lived in the part of Chicago that I did in my early teens. Those girls scare a lot of guys like you wouldn't believe. My wife took care of a really large guy back when she was younger, likes to shoot, loves knives, & hates Oprah. We both hate televised sports, Ultimate fighting, (Which my sister-in-law, who, BTW, has a Black-Belt in Tae Kwon Do/Hopkido, really likes) & Spike TV. I, on the other hand, I am into magic, chess, and have even been a professional cook. Let's watch the stereo-typing, ok? :cool2:

[Sarge47]

I do respect your right to have your own opinion, just like everyone else has; so I think you and I must agree to disagree. However I am going to add a poll to this thread to see how the results go...should be interesting. :cool2:

[crashdive123]

Everybody is entitled to have their opinion. It tends to get a little tedious when that opinion is repeated over, and over, and over again.

[Justin Case]

God-A-Mighty where do you live,
and what kind of people (men & women) are you
hanging out with to think like that?

That is SO far from my experience that I can't
even comment really, I am just amazed.

Arizona,, Sorry,, But Thats how i see it, its just an opinion, I was a firefighter for many years,, and the truth is, The Girls just couldnt keep up with the guys,, (for the "Most" part) there were a "Few" exceptions of course.

I am Talking about front line Firefighting,, again, Just an Observation,,

[Justin Case]

That's just plain shallow, man! It's obvious to me that you never lived in the part of Chicago that I did in my early teens. Those girls scare a lot of guys like you wouldn't believe. My wife took care of a really large guy back when she was younger, likes to shoot, loves knives, & hates Oprah. We both hate televised sports, Ultimate fighting, (Which my sister-in-law, who, BTW, has a Black-Belt in Tae Kwon Do/Hopkido, really likes) & Spike TV. I, on the other hand, I am into magic, chess, and have even been a professional cook. Let's watch the stereo-typing, ok? :cool2:

I am not Stero-typing at all,, I posted the research that says Women Make Great Cops, There is Nothing Stereo type about "MY" personal preference of who i would rather have fighting back to back with me, There is Nothing Stereo type about Pound for pound Men are stronger than Women, Thats just the way it is, On the Flip side, Most Females are better cooks than "Most" men,,Certainly Better Looking (for the Most Part lol) I was very careful to include with My posts, this is just "MY" Humble opinion, :)

[Justin Case]

I cannot answer the poll unless you add " Hand to Hand" combat,, anyone with an M16 is deadly,,

[BENESSE]

Arizona,, Sorry,, But Thats how i see it, its just an opinion, I was a firefighter for many years,, and the truth is, The Girls just couldnt keep up with the guys,, (for the "Most" part) there were a "Few" exceptions of course.

I am Talking about front line Firefighting,, again, Just an Observation,,
Believe it or not, I do understand. And I can relate to how a personal experience can influence the way one thinks in general.


I was commenting on this observation and just wondering about how you grew up and who you hung out with to think like that:

Most Guys "Like" to fight and have been fighting ever since grade school,,,,, Women, (for the most part) talk about things they have seen on Oprah or the latest greatest diet, where Men (for the most part) talk about Ultimate Fighting on Spike tv or Sundays football game,, Men are inherently more Violent ,, In my Humble Opinion :)

[Justin Case]

Believe it or not, I do understand. And I can relate to how a personal experience can influence the way one thinks in general.


I was commenting on this observation and just wondering about how you grew up and who you hung out with to think like that:

Just Public school,, The boys were the ones always fighting and rough housing,, its Natural,, The girls were , umm doing whatever the girls were doing, Talking about boys and make up I guess,, But they werent playing football and wrestling with the boys,, ( well a few may have wrestled a boy now and then, but you know what I mean :) )

[mcgyver]

What is it that is making us try to homogenize the human race?
We are not all the same, and that's a good thing!
If you were tasked to replace the handle on your axe, and you had a choice of Hickory or Pine, you all would most likely choose the Hickory.
This would be based upon your knowledge, and acceptance that the hickory would be a stronger wood than the pine.
Now you would not have immediately thought that you might be comparing a poorly grained weak piece of hickory to a fire hardened heartwood piece of pine. If you had, you would have tested them both to find they were equal, or even that the pine may be better for the task.
But you didn’t because of the assumed superiority of one over the other for the task at hand, based upon the natural qualities bestowed by nature.

In general, genders can be looked upon the same way. Strengths and weaknesses bestowed by nature.
I have known many weak men who I would not trust at my six, and more than a few fire hardened women that far exceeded the requirements for combat. Not the average for sure. The only true way to know for sure is to test them to the task at hand.
The task sets the benchmark for the test.
No gender should be omitted from the testing for the task they wish to perform. BUT, it should be the same test. No lowering the bar, handicapping the times, or lessening the load. If you pass the test, GOOD for you! You have the job.:clap:

Combat requires setting the bar very high. Many, many lives depend upon it.
Lowering that standard only fills stretchers and body bags.

[doug1980]

I was talking to my wife last night about this, she has been in the Air Force for 5 years. She is very pro women in the Military, obviously, and she said that for it to be truely fair all the standards should be the same. Everything should be the same no matter what, PT, standards everything. I totally agree with this. You want fairness and eqaulity then there you go.

[dscrick]

I think I'm qualified to speak on the subject.

First, I don't think it should be "Up to Congress to give it a nod", those ignorant imbeciles have no first hand experience, with very few exceptions. You could count the number of ex Submariners in Congress on one hand if you were missing a finger. Let the Navy's leadership make this decision.

Although there are several logistical and practical obstacles to allowing females to serve on Subs, I think there is ample precedent and prior experience available to make it happen. When I began my career in the Navy in 1980 women weren't permitted to seve on combat vessels. We had some women serving on auxillary ships such as tenders, and even that plan had met with a lot of resistance from the old timers.

By the time I was a young Chief finishing a tour on a Navy destroyer in 1990, women were allowed to serve on combat vessels and were being fully integrated into the surface combat fleet. 3 years later as a leading Chief on the John F Kennedy (CV-67) fully one sixth of our full time crew was female. 700 women working alongside thier male counterparts. No major problems.

Female Sailors want to serve in the same capacity as thier male shipmates, and they should. Yes, there are a few problems to overcome, but if the civilians in charge let the Navy leaders solve the issues it will work just fine.

[BENESSE]

I was talking to my wife last night about this, she has been in the Air Force for 5 years. She is very pro women in the Military, obviously, and she said that for it to be truely fair all the standards should be the same. Everything should be the same no matter what, PT, standards everything. I totally agree with this. You want fairness and eqaulity then there you go.

It's the ONLY way!
And if someone still has a subjective problem with that, then he'll just have to deal with it on his own.

[owl_girl]

when i was a kid (between 8 & 11) in AK both girls and guys did the same thing. build tree forts, fight over tree forts, ride bikes, and play games. the girls were taller then the guys in the beginning but not stronger. i did play fight guys a lot but that was almost considered a flirtatious thing to me.
one year we had a water war, boy against girls, throwing water balloons and using super sokers (nothing like real war i know) and i have to say the girls won by a long shot. this war went on for 2 weeks with the whole neighborhood. the guys were always fighting amongst themselves about whos idea to follow and they were completely unorganized in there method. they did however have bigger squirt guns. so us girls started taking the plastic bags off news papers and filling them with water to throw at them. we would watch each others backs when we would take turns filling the bags. we were also faster and stealthier. by brother was on the guys team and was the only one the girls considers a threat/worthy opponent. even he thought the guys sucked. there was no hand to hand combat but if a person if fast enough, and stealthy (which being small could aid in) there might be less of a risk for hand to hand combat in the first place. what if she was a really good aim. or had some other ability that could compensate out in the field? and what about small guys going out in the field? there dosnt seem to be as much objection to that.

[mcgyver]

My little Sister (5'.) proved that in Army bootcamp. She got the highest score in camp for Hand to Hand.
She's small, and fast as a scared rabbit (she was also a blackbelt in Kempo before enlisting). Her problem was the strength for hauling all her gear on a march.
Yes, there are a lot of things to consider.

[Sarge47]

I am not Stero-typing at all,, I posted the research that says Women Make Great Cops, There is Nothing Stereo type about "MY" personal preference of who i would rather have fighting back to back with me, There is Nothing Stereo type about Pound for pound Men are stronger than Women, Thats just the way it is, On the Flip side, Most Females are better cooks than "Most" men,,Certainly Better Looking (for the Most Part lol) I was very careful to include with My posts, this is just "MY" Humble opinion, :)I was referring to men who watch football, etc.; women who watch oprah, etc.. Just met a Sherrif's deputy awhile ago & he says tha women have some important roles on the force. A lot of times they're better at interviewing, frisking female perps, etc. And I'll blow any woman out of the kitchen, dude! Them's fightin' words! That's MY opinion! :cool2:

[Sarge47]

Just Public school,, The boys were the ones always fighting and rough housing,, its Natural,, The girls were , umm doing whatever the girls were doing, Talking about boys and make up I guess,, But they werent playing football and wrestling with the boys,, ( well a few may have wrestled a boy now and then, but you know what I mean :) )
Dude, the girls in my 8th grade class in the public school I attended in Chicago would have kicked your butt! :cool2:

[Sarge47]

No, I did NOT post a survey on women involved in hand-to-hand combat as :

1.) That's off-topic; the topic is women on subs, not on the police force. The likely hood of a women assigned to a submarine being involved in hand-to-hand combat is very remote, unless it's on shore-leave in a really tough bar.

2.) Also, it's more of a "push-button age" as far as war is concerned son, again, the situation regarding hand-to-hand might more applicable to women in the police force, but such is NOT the title of this thread. :cool2:

[Rick]

What about hand to hand combat on a submarine? You never know when a foreign police force might try to take over a sub.

[BENESSE]

What about hand to hand combat on a submarine? You never know when a foreign police force might try to take over a sub.

Or a girl fighting off a buddy?
That would be a knee to groin combat, I think.

[Rick]

That would be unsportsman like conduct and a 15 yard penalty.

[Justin Case]

No, I did NOT post a survey on women involved in hand-to-hand combat as :

1.) That's off-topic; the topic is women on subs, not on the police force. The likely hood of a women assigned to a submarine being involved in hand-to-hand combat is very remote, unless it's on shore-leave in a really tough bar.

2.) Also, it's more of a "push-button age" as far as war is concerned son, again, the situation regarding hand-to-hand might more applicable to women in the police force, but such is NOT the title of this thread. :cool2:

Actually, the purpose of the thread was ,, more of a logistical question, will they have to retro fit subs for the Ladies, or , will they share showers/latrines and sleeping quarters with the guys,, ?



So Whats you Specialty in the Kitchen ? Squirrel Stew ? oh wait,, Thats Kens Favorite :innocent:

[Justin Case]

Dude, the girls in my 8th grade class in the public school I attended in Chicago would have kicked your butt! :cool2:

Sheesh,, what kind of girls went to your school ? (Is it just me or does she look like Dr Smith from lost in space ? )

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n177/onionsaregross/muscle_girl_1.jpg

[Rick]

Danger, Will Robinson!!!!!!!

[glockcop]

No, I did NOT post a survey on women involved in hand-to-hand combat as :

1.) That's off-topic; the topic is women on subs, not on the police force. The likely hood of a women assigned to a submarine being involved in hand-to-hand combat is very remote, unless it's on shore-leave in a really tough bar.

2.) Also, it's more of a "push-button age" as far as war is concerned son, again, the situation regarding hand-to-hand might more applicable to women in the police force, but such is NOT the title of this thread. :cool2:

Sarge, I agree that the thread did not start out about women in "hand to hand" combat or women being in criminal patrol but ALOT (if not most) of this thread so far has been about it. As soon as I said that "women have no business in fighting roles", the band wagon sure filled up fast on that topic and the tone went in that direction for the most part. At this point it may have been relevant to include this in your pole. But hey, I'm not the one making those descisions. I dare not post my own thread about it at this point. I'm too sore from all the a$$ chewing......then again a$$ chewings never stopped me before. Stay safe, Brother.

[glockcop]

Sheesh,, what kind of girls went to your school ? (Is it just me or does she look like Dr Smith from lost in space ? )

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n177/onionsaregross/muscle_girl_1.jpg

That ain't an average daisey! That is gross! I've caught prettier fish.

[Justin Case]

She Looks Constipated :ohmy::ohmy:

[Justin Case]

UPDATE


Navy to allow women to serve on submarines

Published: Friday, April 30, 2010 1:16 AM MDT
KINGS BAY NAVAL SUBMARINE BASE, Georgia (AP) — The first U.S. women allowed to serve aboard submarines will be reporting for duty by 2012, the Navy said Thursday as the military ordered an end to one of its few remaining gender barriers.

The cramped quarters and scant privacy aboard submarines, combined with long tours of up to 90 days at sea, kept them off-limits to female sailors for 16 years after the Navy began allowing women to serve on all its surface ships in 1994.

There were some protests, particularly from wives of sub sailors, after the military began formulating a plan last fall. But it received no objections from Congress after Defense Secretary Robert Gates notified lawmakers in mid-February that the Navy intended to lift the ban. The deadline for Congress to intervene passed at midnight Wednesday.

Women are currently allowed to serve on subs in a few countries, including Australia, Canada, Norway, Spain and Sweden.

Rear Adm. Barry Bruner, who led the Navy’s task force on integrating women onto submarines, brushed aside questions from reporters about the potential for sexual misconduct or unexpected pregnancies among a coed crew.

“We’re going to look back on this four or five years from now, shrug our shoulders and say, ‘What was everybody worrying about?’” said Bruner, the top sub commander at Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base in coastal Georgia, where the announcement was made.

The first group of women will consist entirely of officers assigned to guided-missile attack submarines and ballistic-missile submarines, which have the most living space in the Navy’s fleet. They’ll be assigned to two subs based at Kings Bay on the East Coast, and two others at the West Coast naval hub of Bangor, Washington.

Limiting women to officer slots lets the Navy, for a time at least, sidestep the more vexing and cost-prohibitive problem of modifying subs to have separate bunks and bathrooms for enlisted men and women. Enlisted sailors make up about 90 percent of a sub’s 160-sailor crew. No timeline was given for integrating enlisted women onto subs.

Bruner said 24 women will be able to begin training for submarine officers, which takes at least 15 months, this summer. They’ll be divided up so that three women are assigned to each sub’s two rotating crews.

That grouping will let all three women aboard a sub share a single stateroom for sleeping. The single bathroom shared by a sub’s 15 officers will be equipped with a sign to show if it’s occupied by men or women.

Otherwise, most changes will likely be behavioral shifts by male sailors who aren’t used to having women aboard, said Lt. Cmdr. Daniel Lombardo, executive officer of the submarine USS Alaska.

“The guys are probably used to walking to the restroom in their boxer shorts and stuff,” Lombardo said. “But all in all, I think the adjustments for the crew are going to be minor.”

One of the most difficult groups to win over on the concept of coed subs has been women themselves — at least those who are married to submarine sailors.

On blogs and online networking sites, wives of submariners have warned that close contact between the sexes at sea could lead to temptation and allegations of sexual harassment.

“There’s a lot of Navy wives worried about their husbands cheating,” said Petty Officer 1st Class Glenn Gray, a missile technician on the Alaska, who said his wife isn’t crazy about the idea. “I’ve told her not to worry, because I’m married to her.”

Bruner said that when his task force talked with the wives of submariners, the wives’ primary concern wasn’t that their husbands might cheat. Instead, most were concerned that unqualified women would be allowed onboard the subs to the detriment of the crew and potentially take jobs from their husbands.

Bruner said he found the opposite was true: If women are held to the same performance standards as men, as the Navy plans, allowing women aboard subs will ensure that each sub is staffed with the most capable staff possible.

The Navy declined several requests by The Associated Press to interview female sailors and cadets at U.S. bases about the policy change.

About 52,446 women serve on active duty in the U.S. Navy, or about 15 percent of total personnel. Navy officials said women also make up about half the pool of potential recruits with educational degrees that qualify them for training as submarine officers.

“We literally could not run the Navy without women today,” Navy Secretary Ray Mabus said in a statement.

Sailors interviewed aboard the Alaska at Kings Bay on Thursday said they’re not opposed to the change.

But Petty Officer 2nd Class Chris Merceri predicted there will be “a little more anxiety” when female officers come aboard for the first time.

“Everybody’s going to be really up on their P’s and Q’s, very formal and careful of what they do,” Merceri said. “After that, everyone will be relaxed and comfortable. It’ll be another day at work.”
http://mohavedailynews.com/articles/2010/05/01/news/nation_and_world/doc4bda817cbdf43872842031.txt

[Rev.Moonshine]

hello there everyone.

since im not from usa and since my countrys situation is vastly different from that of usa i dont really feel like i can comment but i just felt like it hehe.


sry did not read through the entire thread.but have read first page and then some.

here is my opinion.

let them serve !!!! omg how i wished we had more girls in the military.
maybe i see this differently since military is compulsory here (or was now any excuse will do).
i feel women is a great moral booster just having some running around
cheers you up.

being a very rich country with a very small population with neighbours like russia and germany (hehe had to put germany in there) in example.
add border disputes about oil and fishery
i would like to have all persons capable of pulling the trigger of anything bigger then a pea shooter to have military training.


idf have women in their forces.

[Justin Case]

i feel women is a great moral booster just having some running around
cheers you up.


Some people think it would be a distraction ,,,, But I'm with you,, The more the merrier ;)

[Rick]

Women To Serve On US SubmarinesWhat are they serving?

[Justin Case]

What are they serving?

Lap Dances with any luck,,,,

[2dumb2kwit]

Most everything that I know, about submarines, I learned from this.:blushing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Mx1kA3irk&feature=related

[Justin Case]

Most everything that I know, about submarines, I learned from this.:blushing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Mx1kA3irk&feature=related

Great Movie !! But this is more fitting,,, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2ttd48u0J0&feature=PlayList&p=4C1D993ECC132A7E&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=40

[2dumb2kwit]

Great Movie !! But this is more fitting,,, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2ttd48u0J0&feature=PlayList&p=4C1D993ECC132A7E&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=40

Cary Grant........Tony Curtis......weren't they........oh, nevermind.:innocent:

[Justin Case]

Cary Grant........Tony Curtis......weren't they........oh, nevermind.:innocent:

Not Tony Curtis,,,,,,

[Justin Case]

Well this issue seems to have died, I cannot find any NEW info on the web? anyone heard anything?

[crashdive123]

If they are going forward with the plans to put a few female officers on one of the boats, they will just do it without the fanfare of cameras or media. Submarine operations, including personnel are generally classified. Depending on the type of boat, or the mission it will remain so. There's a reason it's called the Silent Service.

[oldsoldier]

Sorry gang, BUT IMHO gender should NOT be a factor in where/how they serve. If they can do the job then great, if not male or female does not matter they have no business being there. Plus to use the "Women in combat" scenerio. Serving on a sub isn't like front line combat. Although I have served with Women that I would never have a problem serving with in combat, As well as Men who I wouldn't trust in the mess hall. But thats just my opinion.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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�айт (http://knockonatom.ru)�айт (http://knowledgestate.ru)�айт (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)�айт (http://labeledgraph.ru)�айт (http://laborracket.ru)�айт (http://labourearnings.ru)�айт (http://labourleasing.ru)�айт (http://laburnumtree.ru)�айт (http://lacingcourse.ru)�айт (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)�айт (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)�айт (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)�айт (http://ladletreatediron.ru)�айт (http://laggingload.ru)�айт (http://laissezaller.ru)
�айт (http://lambdatransition.ru)�айт (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)�айт (http://lammasshoot.ru)�айт (http://lamphouse.ru)�айт (http://lancecorporal.ru)�айт (http://lancingdie.ru)�айт (http://landingdoor.ru)�айт (http://landmarksensor.ru)�айт (http://landreform.ru)�айт (http://landuseratio.ru)�айт (http://languagelaboratory.ru)�айт (http://largeheart.ru)�айт (http://lasercalibration.ru)�айт (http://laserlens.ru)�айт (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

�айт (http://laterevent.ru)�айт (http://latrinesergeant.ru)�айт (http://layabout.ru)�айт (http://leadcoating.ru)�айт (http://leadingfirm.ru)�айт (http://learningcurve.ru)�айт (http://leaveword.ru)�айт (http://machinesensible.ru)�айт (http://magneticequator.ru)�айт (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)�айт (http://mailinghouse.ru)�айт (http://majorconcern.ru)�айт (http://mammasdarling.ru)�айт (http://managerialstaff.ru)�айт (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
�айт (http://manualchoke.ru)�айт (http://medinfobooks.ru)�айт (http://mp3lists.ru)�айт (http://nameresolution.ru)�айт (http://naphtheneseries.ru)�айт (http://narrowmouthed.ru)�айт (http://nationalcensus.ru)�айт (http://naturalfunctor.ru)�айт (http://navelseed.ru)�айт (http://neatplaster.ru)�айт (http://necroticcaries.ru)�айт (http://negativefibration.ru)�айт (http://neighbouringrights.ru)�айт (http://objectmodule.ru)�айт (http://observationballoon.ru)
�айт (http://obstructivepatent.ru)�айт (http://oceanmining.ru)�айт (http://octupolephonon.ru)�айт (http://offlinesystem.ru)�айт (http://offsetholder.ru)�айт (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)�айт (http://onesticket.ru)�айт (http://packedspheres.ru)�айт (http://pagingterminal.ru)�айт (http://palatinebones.ru)�айт (http://palmberry.ru)�айт (http://papercoating.ru)�айт (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)�айт (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)�айт (http://parkingbrake.ru)
�айт (http://partfamily.ru)�айт (http://partialmajorant.ru)�айт (http://quadrupleworm.ru)�айт (http://qualitybooster.ru)�айт (http://quasimoney.ru)�айт (http://quenchedspark.ru)�айт (http://quodrecuperet.ru)�айт (http://rabbetledge.ru)�айт (http://radialchaser.ru)�айт (http://radiationestimator.ru)�айт (http://railwaybridge.ru)�айт (http://randomcoloration.ru)�айт (http://rapidgrowth.ru)�айт (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)�айт (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
�айт (http://readingmagnifier.ru)�айт (http://rearchain.ru)�айт (http://recessioncone.ru)�айт (http://recordedassignment.ru)�айт (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)�айт (http://redemptionvalue.ru)�айт (http://reducingflange.ru)�айт (http://referenceantigen.ru)�айт (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)�айт (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)�айт (http://safedrilling.ru)�айт (http://sagprofile.ru)�айт (http://salestypelease.ru)�айт (http://samplinginterval.ru)�айт (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
�айт (http://scarcecommodity.ru)�айт (http://scrapermat.ru)�айт (http://screwingunit.ru)�айт (http://seawaterpump.ru)�айт (http://secondaryblock.ru)�айт (http://secularclergy.ru)�айт (http://seismicefficiency.ru)�айт (http://selectivediffuser.ru)�айт (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)�айт (http://semifinishmachining.ru)�айт (http://spicetrade.ru)�айт (http://spysale.ru)�айт (http://stungun.ru)�айт (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)�айт (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
�айт (http://tamecurve.ru)�айт (http://tapecorrection.ru)�айт (http://tappingchuck.ru)�айт (http://taskreasoning.ru)�айт (http://technicalgrade.ru)�айт (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)�айт (http://telescopicdamper.ru)�айт (http://temperateclimate.ru)�айт (http://temperedmeasure.ru)�айт (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)�айт (http://ultramaficrock.ru)�айт (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

геро (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/871)203 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/871)DEFI (http://eyesvision.ru)Exam (http://eyesvisions.com/physics/16)BOOM (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1137463)Yele (http://filmzones.ru/t/933988)Terr (http://gadwall.ru/t/899044)Intr (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1101844)Step (http://gageboard.ru/t/1094564)�тор (http://gagrule.ru/t/853641)пла� (http://gallduct.ru/t/1162222)aequ (http://galvanometric.ru/t/946781)Arie (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1070254)Tesc (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1481180)0764 (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1144164)
Sara (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1027775)�алф (http://gascautery.ru/t/1144042)Ко�т (http://gashbucket.ru/t/830950)пред (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1144175)Смир (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/837968)фили (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1161619)Ташк (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1208424)Riem (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/949491)PRES (http://geartreating.ru/t/928386)Tesc (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/922991)отде (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/947290)Kolo (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/854781)Джон (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/938297)Card (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/925227)John (http://getthebounce.ru/t/768100)
Taki (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1088172)Heav (http://habituate.ru/t/1091063)Соде (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/835214)Pure (http://hackworker.ru/t/1125182)Fisc (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1102254)Корж (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1095720)�кад (http://hailsquall.ru/t/812991)Панк (http://hairysphere.ru/t/851803)Иван (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/811844)141- (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/854685)�еми (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/811612)Matt (http://haltstate.ru/t/863475)Quee (http://handcoding.ru/t/1027430)Stri (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1142896)(191 (http://handradar.ru/t/810665)
Dani (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/844263)Mari (http://hangonpart.ru/t/907587)Davi (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/751423)Ñ�ерт (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/567094)Bete (http://hardasiron.ru/t/568261)80x8 (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/809618)Ð*Ñ‹Ñ‚Ñ… (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/855820)Кучм (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/675877)худо (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/808792)Ð*икл (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1009969)Rajn (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/832062)Федо (http://headregulator.ru/t/1345180)ELEG (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1547284)Иллю (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/805899)Circ (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1189220)
Alta (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1182339)Фило (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/655861)Mari (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/637867)Juli (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/781661)Jack (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/639172)Семе (http://jobstress.ru/t/665308)де�т (http://jogformation.ru/t/795539)Серг (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1147404)9257 (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1147721)Push (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1067421)�ерт (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1147393)Pali (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1180219)ELEG (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1181732)1277 (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1183088)Pali (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1179875)
Sela (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1180955)(Озв (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/638646)Loyd (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1182957)Marc (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1179736)Zone (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/608750)Rond (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/610911)Mati (http://keyserum.ru/t/1180743)газе (http://kickplate.ru/t/893377)Своб (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1208223)Juli (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/781511)СМок (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/889679)дене (http://kinozones.ru/film/871)Dick (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/742857)�ни� (http://kneejoint.ru/t/853672)Карп (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1256444)
Joha (http://knockonatom.ru/t/771913)по�л (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/854526)Сухо (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1239919)3215 (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1194436)Ociy (http://laborracket.ru/t/1100252)Tosh (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1466580)Сере (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1245349)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1190450)�ере (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1188725)Happ (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1188377)Zone (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1186706)Zone (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1193308)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1191804)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190113)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1191741)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1191798)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1193336)ERIN (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1184035)Zone (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1184940)Zone (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1184878)Zone (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1186306)зака (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1188494)diam (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1184648)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1186783)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185105)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1190906)Pate (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161371)фарф (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1163039)RD-0 (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/879)Санк (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590735)

[yellowcab]

кори (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1031210)Hans (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452783)Inbo (http://layabout.ru/shop/452889)Bull (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/269970)Орло (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/105926)Tolo (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/465571)Wind (http://leaveword.ru/shop/465666)�рти (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/196210)Chic (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/575105)Го�т (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/266869)Dona (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/268558)Spon (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/558508)9067 (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/472815)LEXU (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/160341)PROT (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/614074)
Диам (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/598586)Ceci (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/871)cont (http://mp3lists.ru/item/871)zero (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1041931)Vict (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/106798)Wind (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461604)неза (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1055682)Nucl (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/486992)ма�к (http://navelseed.ru/shop/101455)�кла (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455177)Bonu (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/177536)TopP (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/507018)Psyc (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/617377)Cees (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/109409)Hyun (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/97545)
Phil (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98765)Chou (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/458510)цвет (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571910)ЛитÐ* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/148658)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/202774)ЛитÐ* (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/149358)Gent (http://onesticket.ru/shop/579574)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/581665)ЛитÐ* (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/683898)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/683244)Harr (http://palmberry.ru/shop/578632)Rene (http://papercoating.ru/shop/583359)ЛитÐ* (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/688796)XVII (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1168197)допо (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1168204)
Лите (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1173211)Грин (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1172234)Albe (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1540419)Грен (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1454982)Ва�и (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/595704)Acad (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/597924)�пек (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1072109)Vera (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1073462)Юрке (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/326253)stoo (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/510012)Live (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/518232)авто (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/517026)Давы (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/904085)�ила (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1079093)ENVY (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/327193)
Fran (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/513636)styl (http://rearchain.ru/shop/644806)разв (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/620885)Audi (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/922643)побе (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1054325)Ñ�луж (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1063051)Холи (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1680433)Шарк (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693496)Ð*азм (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1760790)авто (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1222510)алге (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1816938)Иллю (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1055444)букв (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1323683)44-4 (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1860103)памÑ� (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1478428)
�пор (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1492999)неме (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1466711)�вде (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1494526)Гели (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1551749)�вер (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1407321)�том (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1487344)преп (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/327784)Позд (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/400159)Плеш (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/401193)Тику (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1686515)RD-0 (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/879)RD-0 (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/879)RD-0 (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/879)Коб� (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/483343)Иолт (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/490765)
Миро (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/498698)�лек (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/483578)Fore (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/488072)�ико (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/499477)Храм (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1822108)Саль (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1880784)Целк (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/736697)Вигд (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/759124)ма�т (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/401194)Jane (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/980718)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Shak (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/981358)Дожд (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/483675)

[yellowcab]

audiobookkeeper (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)