The Devil is in the Details

[intothenew]

Junk in, junk out would be my simplistic thoughts. How did we get to excretion without a baseline of input?

It's not that I don't want your opinion, maybe I do and maybe I don't. I am arguing with myself on these issues, why should you be any different?

In this chaotic universe, am I to simply choose randomly/by craving/by statistics/or some other method, the menu of tomorrow?



I am of the opinion, for now, that cravings are a symptom.

First Principle should be a baseline intake?

Excretion, and I think we are getting way ahead of the game: Fiber in the appropriate amounts. Water, in the appropriate amounts.

It has worked for better than 5 decades. That's with a stocked pantry and a Piggly Wiggly to rob when returning from the field. Will it work for these kids for 9 decades, or better, is where my thoughts are.

[WolfVanZandt]

Cravings are a signal in the body that it needs something. It's not a symptom, it's a mechanism. If a car gets low on oil, a red light comes on. That's not a symptom, it's an indicator and you respond by adding oil.

Recommended daily requirements are fine if you don't stress the system. Consider the samples used to determine them. I doubt if they're using people under survival (or even camping) conditions.

Start with the baselines? Why, that's exactly what I said. Begin with the calculator recommendations as an approximation and then fine tune it as needed. You really need to go back and read what I actually said. Then you might actually be able to critique it.

But if you use the daily recommended amounts and, at the end of the day, they don't seem to be working, there's a problem with either the amounts or the way you're using them.

[BENESSE]

Cravings are a signal in the body that it needs something. It's not a symptom, it's a mechanism. If a car gets low on oil, a red light comes on. That's not a symptom, it's an indicator and you respond by adding oil.

IMO, it all depends on what the cravings are, since more often than not they are for something not good for you...kinda like a drug where you need a fix. Once you start feeding the fix it only gets worse, not better and the effect of euphoria doesn't last. If you're healthy, exercise and eat right your cravings won't be nearly as compelling, they will pass if you don't give in or you'll be able to redirect them to something healthier that will also satisfy them. It's all a matter of habit and it gets easier with time. I speak from experience.

[Echo2]

I mean to sound argumentative. That is not from an unwillingness to change an opinion, I haven't necessarily formed one yet.

2x is 2 times the normal.

How many time has a mineral or vitamin deficiency been an issue for you?

[intothenew]

I apologize for the attitude yesterday. New day, new attitude. Hopefully, for the better.

.......................Recommended daily requirements are fine if you don't stress the system.............

If I go to the Calorie Calculator (LINKY) and enter my own personal info, and a basal metabolic rate for exercise level, I get a recommendation of 1695 calories. It is my understanding that basal metabolic rate is less than couch potato, actually laying in bed at room temperature. I cannot confirm, or deny, that number from personal experience.

...........Consider the samples used to determine them. I doubt if they're using people under survival (or even camping) conditions....................

If I go back to the Calorie Calculator changing only the exercise level to daily exercise + physical job, I get 3221 calories. Does that take into account "survival (or even camping) conditions"? Somewhat, I guess we could say.

I have some real world data to compare this to, but as you have mentioned, there are other variables.

I am a deer hunter. Roughly, I break it into two seasons. There's scouting season, and there's hunting season.

Scouting season, I am afield with a 30 pound pack almost constantly on the move. Hiking would best describe it. The weather is typically temperate. With that said, if I go back to the Calorie Calculator and add 30 pounds to my weight and use daily exercise + physical job I get 3480 calories. By comparing that to my typical menu, it somewhat agrees. I will consume between 3500 and 4000 calories per day on those jaunts without weight gain/loss.

Hunting season, I am afield with that same 30 lb load. It's just broke up a little different. I am carrying a firearm or bow, my clothing is a bit heavier, but my pack is a bit lighter because I am not carrying typical camping equipment. I am not nearly as active because there is a lot of time spent "on stand". But, I still consume that same 3500 to 4000 calories without weight gain/loss. I account that to an environmental issue, it's cold. It simply takes more calories to keep a fire going.

So to your point, "consider the samples", I get somewhat of agreement with the calculator. And to your point, "You're dealing with chaos rich systems", maybe we can define some of the variables? Total weight (pack, clothing, firearm, etc.) and the temperature are two that I think should be considered. Are there more? Certainly has to be the answer, but what are they?

[intothenew]

2x is 2 times the normal.

How many time has a mineral or vitamin deficiency been an issue for you?

I honestly don't know. Is the foot cramp a mineral/vitamin deficiency, or is it dehydration, or something else? Is the craving for that salad and can of peaches a deficiency, or simply a taste craving? I don't know.

[intothenew]

.............and eat right.............

How do you define that?

[Echo2]

I honestly don't know. Is the foot cramp a mineral/vitamin deficiency, or is it dehydration, or something else? Is the craving for that salad and can of peaches a deficiency, or simply a taste craving? I don't know.

More often than not, a cramp is dehydration....It can be from lack of different minerals....but it generally takes a while of not eating a diverse diet.

Do you suffer from cramps?

A craving can be either/or.....we as a nation have went to eating out of pleasure rather than necessity. It's usually the weird cravings that signify a deficiency.

[intothenew]

................Do you suffer from craps?.....................

Yes, and if you add an "m" the answer is still yes.

They typically occur beginning of scouting season. I account that to a rather abrupt increase in activity. I'll get them after cooling down the first evening or two. Throughout the rest of the year, they are rare, but do happen from time to time. In particular, the beginning of motorcycle season I will get some toe cramps. Again, I account that to using those particular muscles in a way they haven't been accustomed. But, I may be reading things wrong.

[Echo2]

Yes, and if you add an "m" the answer is still yes.

They typically occur beginning of scouting season. I account that to a rather abrupt increase in activity. I'll get them after cooling down the first evening or two. Throughout the rest of the year, they are rare, but do happen from time to time. In particular, the beginning of motorcycle season I will get some toe cramps. Again, I account that to using those particular muscles in a way they haven't been accustomed. But, I may be reading things wrong.

"craps"....heh heh.......oops

Are you currently taking any meds that the side affects are the depletion of minerals?

My mother took some meds that depleted her magnesium and potassium. She took a supplement to balance her levels.

[intothenew]

..................Are you currently taking any meds that the side affects are the depletion of minerals?................

I take no prescription meds.

I do take a low dose aspirin each day, a multi-vitamin, and a fish oil supplement. Those are also included in the packed meals.

[WolfVanZandt]

Benesse is right. I don't fast for religious purposes (it doesn't seem to work for me) but I will fast to tone my body. One thing that I've noticed with fasting is that I start actually craving what I need. A prime example is how easy it is to start craving chocolate. But once you lay off chocolate for a while, you get to where to couldn't care less about it.

If I go back to the Calorie Calculator changing only the exercise level to daily exercise + physical job, I get 3221 calories. Does that take into account "survival (or even camping) conditions"? Somewhat, I guess we could say.

I dunno, but I would expect that they didn't sample anyone under physical stress conditions. That probably needs to be checked out. When I first started working offshore, it wore me out severely. For the first couple of weeks, I had to pick up a drinking glass with two hands. After a couple of weeks, it didn't bother me anymore. Sure, I built some new muscles, but more importantly, my body adapted to the work, learned new, more efficient ways to approach the work, and it was no longer a severe physical stress - same work, but no longer a stress. A physical occupation that you're used to isn't a stress like an acute stressor would be. Hiking, camping, and survival are stresses that most people have to re-adapt to every time.

And to your point, "You're dealing with chaos rich systems", maybe we can define some of the variables?

The nature of chaos is, it doesn't matter what variables you consider, any starting condition can lead to unexpected results. It is relevant where the chaos shows up in the system and how it affects the system. If you can identify those things, you can cut down on the "areas of uncertainty" and cut down on the areas you have to prepare to play by ear in.

The key to dealing with chaotic systems is to begin with an approximation (for instance, the calculator recommendations) and then prepare to play the rest by ear. Modern science was shocked back in the first part of the 20th century to realize that something existed in nature (chaos) that would always monkeywrench anything they tried to do and they could not control it. It isn't a matter of how much we know; it is completely a matter of the characteristics of the system. Chaotic systems are inherently unpredictable.

Bad news - all natural (outside the laboratory) processes are chaos rich.
Good news - the core human brain is designed to deal with chaos.
Bad news - the output of the core brain when dealing with chaotic systems isn't verbal - it's intuitive.
Good news - people can learn to fine tune their intuitions so that they can be trusted. Example - my hand starts hurting about two days before a storm - it's more reliable than the local weather report.

Another key point - you can't force chaotic systems. My opinion is that the only way you can deal with a chaotic system is to become a part of the system and influence it.

I have cramps - in my case, it's heredity. My father also had cramps as he started getting older. I especially start cramping (me feet and ankles) when it gets cold. My father got control of his cramps using an old remedy - he drank tonic water which has quinine in it.

[BENESSE]

How do you define that?

My definition of eating right is: (goes without saying that in case of survival, all bets are off)
1) eating in moderation (portion control vs. super-sizing)
2) not eating stuff that's proven to be more harmful than helpful (trans fats, etc)
3) not eating/reducing intake of processed food
4) upping the intake of "super foods" (blueberries, raw almonds, chia, broccoli, salmon, etc, etc...it's long list, thank god)

In my mind, it's not complicated. I am not fanatical and I do on occasion have a store bought pizza, a piece of cake, a handful of Cheetos or a diet Coke. But I don't need it to be happy. And whenever I get cravings for something sweet or salty, I can easily make substitutions that do the trick.
Bottom line: The desire to be healthy far outweighs the temporary fix of eating junk.

[intothenew]

My definition of eating right is: (goes without saying that in case of survival, all bets are off)
1) eating in moderation (portion control vs. super-sizing)

But what about my string of 4k days, do I still have to be moderate? Just what is moderate?

2) not eating stuff that's proven to be more harmful than helpful (trans fats, etc)

I try to never say die, but I agree in concept

3) not eating/reducing intake of processed food

Dehydrated? That will be my biggest objection moving forward.

4) upping the intake of "super foods" (blueberries, raw almonds, chia, broccoli, salmon, etc, etc...it's long list, thank god)

A marketing term. It's certainly worthy of concept. You forgot/left out tomato, one of my personal favorites.

In my mind, it's not complicated. I am not fanatical and I do on occasion have a store bought pizza, a piece of cake, a handful of Cheetos or a diet Coke. But I don't need it to be happy. And whenever I get cravings for something sweet or salty, I can easily make substitutions that do the trick.
Bottom line: The desire to be healthy far outweighs the temporary fix of eating junk.

Sweets, soda, and junk food are not my problems. I don't crave the salts, or sweets, or quick fix. It's a heeping helping of pork, or beef, that brings me to my knees.

It surprises me that you do not quantify, other than zero, anything?

[BENESSE]

It surprises me that you do not quantify, other than zero, anything?

I don't find quantifying useful in my way of eating, only a chore. I am very aware of the nutritional value of 95% of what I eat and I hardly ever eat when I'm not hungry. I know roughly what my caloric intake should be but I don't stress over it since I'm never in danger of going ridiculously overboard on a regular basis. (I just wouldn't enjoy the feeling after the initial euphoria.)

IMO, unless you're an athlete (I am not, but I do exercise regularly) you don't have to worry about compensating for that 4K run if you eat healthy. "Super Foods" might be a marketing term (shorthand, really) but it doesn't change the fact that they pack more nutritional value than other foods labeled as "empty calories" and I can definitely feel the difference between the two. It's not imaginary.

As far as dehydrated food goes (especially when you do it yourself), I hardly think it approaches the level of highly processed food with a string of ingredients you can hardly pronounce...so no concerns there. I'd worry more about (long shelf life) canned butter and bacon, but that's just me.

And finally...it's been scientifically proven over and over again (to the point it's old news) that underfed mice lived longer, had fewer diseases/tumors, aged better, were more active and had glossier coats. Overfed mice were too heavy to move much, were lethargic, had developed tumors and lesion and their fur was dull and thinning. You can take away what you want from that but I know this much: when I polish off half a large pizza and half a bottle of cabarnet, I feel like stretching out on the sofa and barely moving whereas when I have a large salad packed with all sorts of good things and a chia drink I feel like I can run circles around Central Park, and I like how that feels.

[WolfVanZandt]

The big problem with quantifying is that, in a real survival situation, you won't have the computer or handbooks with you and, personally, I wouldn't be able to rely on my memory to come up with the necessary formulae. In a long term situation, I think I could derive some workable math, but that would be a really long term community building scenario.

[intothenew]

The big problem with quantifying is that, in a real survival situation........................................

You step beyond the scope of what I am trying to do.

I am simply trying to put some forethought into packaging meals, for myself and the grandkids, to use when hiking/camping/fishing this coming spring and summer.

[intothenew]

....................I am very aware of the nutritional value of 95% of what I eat...............

I am not. That is on a personal level, and even more true concerning the kids. But, that is going to change.

That delinquency, in a way, is what sparked the questions in the OP. In setting down a few weeks ago and beginning to actually read/comprehend nutrition labels and research the same for whole/fresh foods, I questioned just what is balanced. Is that answer going to be the same for me as it is the varmints? How much of X, Y, and Z needs to go in this bag?


I understand your bubble sort method (i.e. lose the Trans). Simple enuff, and that has been going on here in these initial stages. It's hard, and I may not be able to get rid of all of the demons, but I'm trying.


That you are aware of the "nutritional value of 95% of what I eat" tells me that somewhere along the line you have done some homework. Where is that list of "superfoods"? Where can I get reliable and complete nutritional data on fresh fruits and vegetables? I have some understanding of vitamin loss/reduction from blanching and dehydration, in particular vitamins A and C, thiamine, riboflavin and niacin. I gonna have to apply some Kentucky windage, or find a reputable source for that one also.

[BENESSE]

That you are aware of the "nutritional value of 95% of what I eat" tells me that somewhere along the line you have done some homework. Where is that list of "superfoods"? Where can I get reliable and complete nutritional data on fresh fruits and vegetables? I have some understanding of vitamin loss/reduction from blanching and dehydration, in particular vitamins A and C, thiamine, riboflavin and niacin. I gonna have to apply some Kentucky windage, or find a reputable source for that one also.

Yes, I have done a lot of homework and haven't stopped doing it.
One of the best resources I know is Center For Science In The Public Interest. I get their monthly newsletter but they are also on line with an incredible Archive of everything you can imagine. That's my food Bible of sorts.

http://www.cspinet.org/about/index.html

"The Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI) is a consumer advocacy organization whose twin missions are to conduct innovative research and advocacy programs in health and nutrition, and to provide consumers with current, useful information about their health and well-being.

In general, CSPI's three main goals are:

• To provide useful, objective information to the public and policymakers and to conduct research on food, alcohol, health, the environment, and other issues related to science and technology;
• To represent the citizen's interests before regulatory, judicial and legislative bodies on food, alcohol, health, the environment, and other issues; and
• To ensure that science and technology are used for the public good and to encourage scientists to engage in public-interest activities.

[BENESSE]

Oh, almost forgot. Another great site to check out is: http://www.healthnewsreview.org/
It's more Health oriented than Nutrition but in my mind the two are inseparable.