emergency handling and basic understanding of a Commericial Airliner

**Ken** · 08-30-2009, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by oly

Come be a passenger with me Ken, we could go visit 2D, I have never got roadrash from flying (aircraft that is and no superhero jokes either) yet.

Okay, but only if we can fly in one of these when we "visit" him.

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**oly** · 08-30-2009, 09:29 AM

Yes we can lay down a carpet for him with that for sure

**Airbus340** · 08-30-2009, 06:11 PM

Without a doubt, you are some very funny guys

Glad I could help Ken.

Rob L

**rebel** · 08-31-2009, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Airbus340

Hi Rebel, thank you for the welcome, anything regarding company maintenance issues really needs to be asked directly to them.But since we mothballed the 340s and I got kicked back into 320 and 330, and it's been quite a while now, I have no real idea what they are doing in that area.Only reason I still refer to the 340 so much is my affinity for them, because it was the aircraft I flew probably most hours. But truthfully the 330 is basically a 2 engine version of same thing in many details. As far as battery question the A340 batteries are rated at 3000 hrs however in the event of power loss the standby instruments would be compensated by power through the RAT (Ram Air turbine or ADG) In the event of full engine failure. It is essential the aircraft have a means of sustaining emergency power to critical instruments. But batteries on an A340 are rated at 3000hrs but unfortunately I have seen the contrary on many occasions that I'm not willing to discuss further here.
I hope this helped answer your questions somewhat Rebel. However personally I'm not quite sure how in any way that those questions would be beneficial personally, but hoped I helped abit.

Rob L

The pitot system has been changing in all Airbus' for the past two years. The standby ADI will last about 5 minutes on battery power unless you have the new mod. Then, a little longer. It's just basic info for the bus, not maintenance only.

**Airbus340** · 08-31-2009, 04:20 AM

Actually Rebel,
You apparently know more about it then I do

And I guess you should be getting my paycheck then. Standby instruments are run by RAT in Airbus in the eventuality of total engine failure. the only reason your 5 min window as your wishing to point out is so that the computers can be reset FAC and FADEC. But the Rat is used for any real emergency Standby power, battery is not relied on really at all. Believe it or not on more than 3 occasions the ADI on standby failed in flight. Personally I was under the impression you were asking about the actual life of the battery, I am sorry but that is what I understood you asking. Because Stdby instruments are much more than just an ADI, But never the less.

To be frankly honest with you, your little I wanna know if you know game is truly not the least bit amusing. If you believe you know the answer to a question, then why ask it, except to attempt be more knowledgeable or insult someones credibility. I did not come to this forum, to have some person I know nothing about, attempt to discredit or disrespect me. So if this is how you treat visitors Rebel, you definitely need to re evaluate your bedside manner sir. I only opened this option as a respectful gesture , to the forum membership, merely as a courtesy. apparently you feel you are much more qualified than I am, which is terrific, you will certainly save me many hours of typing. Thank you for taking that responsibility off my hands. By the way , just for clarification, you stated the pitot tubes on the 340 for Air Canada. well as I clearly stated to you, the company mothballed the 340 out of main fleet a while back, in which we got moved into 330-321 320 and 767. So only maintenance would be able to tell you whats going on with those a/c.

Ken, I apologize, but I am extremely insulted and disrespected, I did not come into your forum to jump through hoops for some person I have never met, or to talk about what I do to make a living, I came in to learn about things, I know very little about and in return only offered any minor services I could to show my appreciation. apparently Rebel has other plans, or feels he must play some sort of I gotcha game or what I don't know and frankly Sir, as long as I get my paycheck I don't care.
I know what I do and how its done and what training I needed to do to get there.
I was unaware that I would have to deal with this sort of what I would consider as a personal affront, for what reason I don't know. but from now on apparently Rebel, will answer all your questions, regarding the subject. I'm sorry if some way I caused a problem with my offer.

By the way Rebel you may wish to in the future, to re word your questions or do more efficient homework on specific company updates. Oh and in closing rebel only just recently since the Air France situation has a company memorandum come down directly from Airbus recommending changes in the pitot tubes, because it is suspected that it has been the reason for many false speed readings that have occurred.

The original AD (Airbus directive) came in 2007 but was only a suggested maintenance consideration at that time, recommended to be accomplished by 2009, I hadn't personally received that updated PIREP and SB until after Jun 1 just to be clear. Up until then it was just talk among companies. The Airbus directive even though stated as mandatory changeover and evaluation a grace period was given. only in light of AF disaster was the AD being pushed. Thats why the updated SB from Director of Maintenance Some actually made change overs some just discussed options. All models were being discussed but the SB AD was primarily 320 321 330. Rebel you can find all battery info in updated FODD and AOM if your needing any further info. But good luck Rebel and hope to see you in the skies sometime, I'll wave as we pass

Regards
Rob L

Originally Posted by rebel

The pitot system has been changing in all Airbus' for the past two years. The standby ADI will last about 5 minutes on battery power unless you have the new mod. Then, a little longer. It's just basic info for the bus, not maintenance only.

**crashdive123** · 08-31-2009, 07:53 AM

Airbus340 - I don't see that Rebel insulted you or showed you any disrespect. In your original post you said

Well if anyone wanted to learn about flying a commercial airliner in an emergency situation or were ever curious about questions.

He had a question that involved aircraft maintenance. Afterall, due to the AirFrance tragedy, it was in the news quite a bit. You, in your answer referred him to maintenance. He replied with some tech data - that's all I saw as the reader of a thread. You are a pilot, not a maintenance guy. I would expect the driver of the city bus I get on to get me from point a to b, but refer maintenance type questions to maintenance.

Maybe if you ask Rebel (via pm might be a good idea) what he meant by it, things would be cleared up. No reason to get upset over something if there is nothing.

**Sarge47** · 08-31-2009, 07:58 AM

Crash is right, as a Transit bus driver I refer all mechanical questions to maintenance. "I drive 'em, I don't fix 'em." BTW, Airbus dude, you started this thread, and that opened up this particular keg of worms. Please note the PM I sent to you.

**rebel** · 08-31-2009, 09:56 AM

A-340,

I'm kind of sorry that I rustled your tail feathers. My original question was wanting to know what Air Canada was doing about the bus issues. It seemed to me that we were getting technical manual information and maintenance referrals that anyone could give so, I dug deeper. I like to know who I'm dealing with and if their information is reliable. BTW, your last post was good.

**SARKY** · 08-31-2009, 01:11 PM

Well for all those hats sir my hat only 1 is definitely off to you. Out of curiosity what is the CG/GTOW and VREF on the P3 Orion? I always enjoyed seeeing that plane flying by when it is used by DHS in US. Well it sounds like your one guy I wouldn't want to mess with.

Rob L

Without having a weight and balance slip stick, I couldn't tell you what the CG would be, max GWTO is 139,760lbs of that almost half is fuel. When the P-3 is maxed out, the CG runs way aft. I would usually have the 3rd pilot and 2nd engineer up in the flightstation. The 3rd pilot would sit on the fwd. radar cabinet and the 2nd FE would be on the circuit breaker panel. this would shift the CG forward by 200lbs each x the difference in inches where they would normally sit on takeoff. (wt. x arm = moment).
What is VREF?

**canid** · 08-31-2009, 01:11 PM

but in turbulence they made it look as easy as an video slot machine. actually, i think the prop they used for the instrument panel was a video slot machine...

**rebel** · 08-31-2009, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by SARKY

What is VREF?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds

**finallyME** · 08-31-2009, 03:13 PM

Wow, you fly a bus...I'm sorry.

(my dad has worked for Boeing for a while, so, I have to throw in the mandatory airbus joke

)

**Airbus340** · 08-31-2009, 04:56 PM

Rebel,
It seems if that is the case that in fact I owe you a sincere apology, I am sure you can understand how I may have come to the conclusions I did or at least hope you do. it would be if I said you said " so what is the gear ratio on the ABC automobile and I say well its 123 but you should actually check with the mechanic because that motor is no longer used.Your next post is "um no is 345! and it always has been. And no mechanics necessary this is basic auto shop! Aviation is my life and so not knowing you from a hole in the ground, I just found it strange you would be asking such obscure questions as pitot changes and battery life etc. I said to myself this is very unusual questions, for someone just wanting to know basic emergency info on an aircraft.

So apparently , I received the situation in incorrectly and for that I am indeed sorry. It was asked of me several times related to this matter, that I put out the offer to answer questions so why be surprised when I get them.
OK let me address that, I was referring to basic questions about the handling of a commercial aircraft in event of an emergency.The pitot tubes can in noway be controlled or have anything to do with a person attempting to fly an aircraft in an emergency, because in fact the static pitot ports are outside the aircraft and are only connected to the instruments through a series of tubes. The only button in the flight deck that can have anything to do with pitot tubes is pitot heat. this is to heat the pitot tubes and prevent ice building, thus blocking the port and giving false reading to instruments. So you can see why I would find this very obscure. But in light of Air France, the term pitot has been used somewhat frequently, so now this is understandable.

For those of you who don't know what a pitot tube or static pitot port is, to put it simply a metal tube that faces into the oncoming air stream and senses pressure changes this in fact is attached to the instrumentation and gives a reading of the aircraft's Airspeed for example. The problem is if this port is blocked some how, then the computers on board will believe something is happening for example higher airspeeds, or stall etc and I in turn would then to circumvent the problem, initiate a procedure that could be catastrophic. this is all because I was told by the computers something was occurring that in fact was not. And at 37000 feet middle of night over water which has no navigational radar reference, this can be disastrous.That is why before any internal checklists are executed, a walk around must be made to inspect the aircraft personally. The brakes are observed for leaks, tires for wear or damage and pitot tubes are checked to ensure no blockages,leading edges for damage from bird strikes and debris,skin wearing, abnormalities, exterior lighting etc That is why if you look out you will see us walking around the aircraft, this is what we are doing.Now you may say well doesn't maintenance and ground crew do that? Well they are not the one flying the aircraft at 37000 ft I am, so I have much more invested in the checks accuracy than they do. I have my crew and your families and friends to think about and myself, they don't.

thank you to all the mods that addressed this small concern and especially Ken, who is truly a great example of this forums willingness to solve problems.
But also to Crash and Rick as well, I found your assistance refreshing and helpful. Sarge no offense meant here, but I found your approach far less inviting and much more aggressive than other moderator's attempts to resolve the issue. Sorry this is merely my observation.

Sincerely again apologize, Rebel
Rob L

Originally Posted by rebel

A-340,

I'm kind of sorry that I rustled your tail feathers. My original question was wanting to know what Air Canada was doing about the bus issues. It seemed to me that we were getting technical manual information and maintenance referrals that anyone could give so, I dug deeper. I like to know who I'm dealing with and if their information is reliable. BTW, your last post was good.

**Airbus340** · 08-31-2009, 05:04 PM

Sarky,
Thank you for the deeper understanding of the Orion. VREF generally means speed that aircraft rotates at, Then speed where if aircraft lost enging could continue to fly V1 -VR- V2 Was actually curious what rotation and V2 speed was on the P3. Also VREF refers to what speeds a/c is clean gear and flaps up etc. Thank you for the info SARKY.

Regards
Rob L

Originally Posted by SARKY

Well for all those hats sir my hat only 1 is definitely off to you. Out of curiosity what is the CG/GTOW and VREF on the P3 Orion? I always enjoyed seeeing that plane flying by when it is used by DHS in US. Well it sounds like your one guy I wouldn't want to mess with.

Rob L

Without having a weight and balance slip stick, I couldn't tell you what the CG would be, max GWTO is 139,760lbs of that almost half is fuel. When the P-3 is maxed out, the CG runs way aft. I would usually have the 3rd pilot and 2nd engineer up in the flightstation. The 3rd pilot would sit on the fwd. radar cabinet and the 2nd FE would be on the circuit breaker panel. this would shift the CG forward by 200lbs each x the difference in inches where they would normally sit on takeoff. (wt. x arm = moment).
What is VREF?

**Rick** · 08-31-2009, 05:11 PM

No problem, Rob. No blood, no foul. I am glad we cleared up any misunderstanding.

**crashdive123** · 08-31-2009, 05:15 PM

Glad you decided to stay around. Sometimes it is a bit difficult when we are very passionate, or knowledgeable about an area of study to remember that not everybody shares that knowledge base. When you said:

The pitot tubes can in noway be controlled or have anything to do with a person attempting to fly an aircraft in an emergency, because in fact the static pitot ports are outside the aircraft and are only connected to the instruments through a series of tubes.

I learned something new, and now know that the air crew cannot correct a problem with them in flight. Not something I was aware of before you said it.

It's not unlike those that have spent time in the military. Sometimes when discussing an issue the terms have to be "civilianized" so that all are working from the same base of knowledge.

Again - glad you're staying around.

**canid** · 08-31-2009, 05:32 PM

...and are only connected to the instruments through a series of tubes.

the internet..?

**Sarge47** · 08-31-2009, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Airbus340

Sarge no offense meant here, but I found your approach far less inviting and much more aggressive than other moderator's attempts to resolve the issue. Sorry this is merely my observation.

Sincerely again apologize, Rebel
Rob L

Yup! That's me! I'm a "hard-liner!" Always have been, always will be. I don't "walk on eggshells" around any of the members here unless I sense that they have some sort of mental illness. Given the fact that you're a pilot I know that you are subject to periodic medical exams so you shouldn't have any. I have nothing against you. I don't fly, & refuse to because of the fact that if a plane has a problem 35,000 feet in the air you can't just pull over to the curb & check it out! That has nothing to do with you. Here's the thing, the membership here is the best! The ones who stay do so because they learn or teach & have the intestinal fortitude to stick it out. We have many members on here who are professional in many different areas. I'm sure that a commercial pilot would be a valuable asset, but that's up to you; you're an adult, you make the decision.