Organic Food is No Healthier

[Ken]

Hey Ken isn't Faith the name of the 22 year old we're supposed to be looking for?

Yep! That's her, Poco!

[BENESSE]

Wow. You're just loaded with misconceptions.......

Enlighten me.

[Ken]

Enlighten me.

Well, to begin with, you seem to have some misconception (you repeated it more than once in different posts) that I would need to write a check to get a date. Why is that? Do you require a payment by check to go on a date?

[BENESSE]

Well, to begin with, you seem to have some misconception (you repeated it more than once in different posts) that I would need to write a check to get a date. Why is that? Do you require a payment by check to go on a date?

Sorry man, I thought we was talkin' bout organic produce.

[Rick]

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[Ken]

Looks like a certain Moderator found a new toy that he likes playin' with.

[Chris]

Environmental data put out by political groups aiming for social change is not worth being considered.

You're also vastly ignorant if you think commercial organic farming uses no pesticides or herbacides. They do, they just use organic ones. You don't think something organic or natural can be dangerous? Let me introduce you to nightshade, hemlock, cocaine, heroine, peyote, etc etc.

"all natural" chemicals or synthetical chemicals, they're still chemicals.

Also, the primary all natural fertilizer is manure, which carries a risk of ecoli contamination. That has actually happened recently and has actually killed people. Synthetic fertilizers, while not perhaps encouraging beneficial soil organisms, also don't spread things like ecoli.

Finally, anyone who comes out against GMO really just shows their true colors of being a zealot using environmental claims for social change. Really, this is scientific progress, and all of our food has been genetically modified going on thousands of years, we can just do it faster now. Modern science gives us food miracles that feed the hungry and cure vitamin deficiencies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

The fact is, if the whole world gardened organically, we could feed about 3 billion people. Every other person would starve. We'll eventually reach the limits anyways, and genetic engineering will help push us beyond them by increasing crop yields. You can't feed the hungry without scientific advancement. Don't be a luddite.

And this is exactly why (one of the reasons) so many socialists and communists have coopted the environmental movement, they're all in favor of strict government control, to the point of controlling reproductive rights, putting in population limits, euthanizing old people, etc. It is all about power and resources. All animals are equal, some are more equal than others, and the ones more equal than others want to ensure more resources for themselves. The twit street person who is just a joiner and sucks down the propaganda might not realize the motivation behind it, but in the higher echelons of these movements environmentalism is not seen as a tool of saving the earth, it is seen as a tool of social change and control.

Every once in awhile though the mask slips.

I garden organically in my yard, I buy all natural grass fed bison and don't eat ground beef. I try to grow as much of my own food as possible. I walk places instead of drive if I can. But when an Al Gore-type pulls up in his limosine and hands me a glass of koolaid, I don't drink it. You have to be an independent thinker, not a joiner.

Organic gardening is great for soil, it can be cheaper for the home gardener because you're getting free fertilizer from your compost. It is better for beneficial insects which are killed by non-selective pesticides. But the idea that it is more nutritive is just hype.

[Sarge47]

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OK, anybody who saw the movie, "Saving Silverman" where R. Lee Ermy plays a gay football coach who marries Jack Black at a Neil Diamond concert, then plants a big "wet one" on Black's kisser, raise you hands! One thing I gotta say, though, the dude is BUTCH!

[Nativedude]

Pesticides that are used in commercial gardening are in deed harmful over the long period and deadly (cancer causing) and it's been proven. These pesticides do get absorbed through the skin or peel of the various veggies & fruits, then we eat them and they get absorbed into our bodies.

If you don't believe it then you are one of the in denial sheeple! Why do you think cancer is so prevalent in the world today.

Whether sprayed on fruits & veggies (pesticides) or injected into livestock (growth hormones & steroids), these substances are killing us little-by-little each and every day! Eating organic is a much healthier way to live.

Also, organic foods last longer than commercially processed foods. That is one reason why the commercial growers (they're not farmers!) try to dis-credit organic foods.

Preservatives that are put in most commercial food actually breaks the food down quicker. This is done so that the consumer has to buy more, more frequently. Whereas, organic food lasts 3x to 4x times longer. When I used to buy organic milk, it's expiration date was about 6 weeks (usually).

All the food I grow in my garden lasts, almost, indefinitely. Notice I said "almost".

And, I personally, know 3 people, besides myself, that have a problem with "regular" milk. We get upset stomach, gas, etc. but, with organic milk we don't have any problems. When I drink it, I can drink it by the quart with no ill-effect. So can the others. So don't tell me there is no difference. There absolutely is! . . .

Not to get off topic, but another thing that is killing us, through cancer and sickness, is our public water supply.

Millions of people flush their old out-of-date prescription medications down the toilet, which in turn, dissolves into the water system and then billions of people ingest this tainted water, which then gets absorbed into our system (bodies) and causes who knows how many problems?!

So don't be a sheeple thinking that the chemicals used for the aforementioned is not affecting us. . .THEY DO!!

[primitiveroots]

I am shocked that you truly believe that organic food is no better. Maybe mass grown commercial organic food is no better. But I can guarantee, that my home grown organic food is 100x's better than the stuff they call food in the super market. One you can taste the difference, see, smell, and feel the difference in organic food grown by someone who really cares about the quality of their food.

But does that mean, I believe the hype about organic. No of course not, if I know that produce is grown by local farmers that don't have the money to buy the organic stamp of approval but don't use toxic chemicals on their plants, I will honor them. I don't need some stamp to tell me the quality of the food that I buy just my brain.

[BENESSE]

I am shocked that you truly believe that organic food is no better. Maybe mass grown commercial organic food is no better. But I can guarantee, that my home grown organic food is 100x's better than the stuff they call food in the super market. One you can taste the difference, see, smell, and feel the difference in organic food grown by someone who really cares about the quality of their food.

But does that mean, I believe the hype about organic. No of course not, if I know that produce is grown by local farmers that don't have the money to buy the organic stamp of approval but don't use toxic chemicals on their plants, I will honor them. I don't need some stamp to tell me the quality of the food that I buy just my brain.

primitiveroots, you said it all!!!
You know what you're talking about because you LIVE it.
If one chooses not to listen, obviously their mind was made up ahead of time
and they're looking for validation.

That's cool, let's just recognize it for what it is.

[Chris]

Hey, I said I garden organically, you just gotta seperate science from psychology.

If you don't believe it then you are one of the in denial sheeple! Why do you think cancer is so prevalent in the world today.

That is utterly ridiculous, and just the kind of scare tactics too often used to push a social agenda.

http://ehstoday.com/news/ehs_imp_33319/
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-263.html
http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/health/cancerfs.htm

For one, assuming pesiticide use is rising (it probably isn't), and assuming cancer as a percentage is rising, you cannot randomly imply causation between them. Correlation != causation. Use of the Internet is also rising, does the Internet cause cancer?

Obesity is rising, does obesity cause cancer? That you can scientifically prove.

Also, organic foods last longer than commercially processed foods. That is one reason why the commercial growers (they're not farmers!) try to dis-credit organic foods.

No they don't.

Preservatives that are put in most commercial food actually breaks the food down quicker. This is done so that the consumer has to buy more, more frequently. Whereas, organic food lasts 3x to 4x times longer. When I used to buy organic milk, it's expiration date was about 6 weeks (usually).

No, they don't.

All the food I grow in my garden lasts, almost, indefinitely. Notice I said "almost".

Do your beanstalks also lead to a castle in the clouds? I want to meet these magical apples that do not rot in the presence of ethylene gas.

And, I personally, know 3 people, besides myself, that have a problem with "regular" milk. We get upset stomach, gas, etc. but, with organic milk we don't have any problems. When I drink it, I can drink it by the quart with no ill-effect. So can the others. So don't tell me there is no difference. There absolutely is! . . .

An anecdotal placebo effect, that is hard evidence. Ask someone to take organic and nonorganic milk and put them in the same jug and give them to you to drink, and do this for like 10 trials (20 total jugs), and see if you have any statisically significant results. No cheating!

Not to get off topic, but another thing that is killing us, through cancer and sickness, is our public water supply.

Millions of people flush their old out-of-date prescription medications down the toilet, which in turn, dissolves into the water system and then billions of people ingest this tainted water, which then gets absorbed into our system (bodies) and causes who knows how many problems?!

Not really cancer, cancer isn't some medical bugaboo you can attribute as a result of anything bad. BUT flushing medicines down the toilet does have negative health consequences, and is something no one should do. The one thing in your post that is accurate.

Also, mercury pollution effects people who eat a lot of fish, that is a scientifically proven fact.

But I can guarantee, that my home grown organic food is 100x's better than the stuff they call food in the super market.

That has nothing to do with what kind of fertilizer you use, or if you use certified organic seeds, or if you use pesticides. That has to do with the food being grown 10 feet from where it is cooked. Fresh food tastes better, food left to ripen on the plant tastes better, food that hasn't been shipped thousands of miles is fresher.

This is a big reason why I grow a lot of my own food, the better taste, but you get that regardless of if you use a processed nitrate to fertilize your corn, or bags of manure.

[Nativedude]

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I learn, first, from what I see and second, from what I get from people I know whom study these causes and effects. I just spent the last two weeks with a good friend whom works at a non-public nor gov't funded, independent lab that tests the effects of the chemicals I mentioned on the human body.

Obesity does not cause cancer, but it is the #1 leading cause of heart disease and the #1 leading cause of diabetes. And obesity has "factually" been linked to all of the processed and fast food that people eat everyday. And, in fact, an article just came out about the fact that "enriched flour" causes the pancreas to not function properly, which leads to diabetes.

Countries like Tibet never had a problems with people being over-weight or obese, but ever since the introduction of the "golden arches" to their country, they have seen an exponential increase in these two problems, as well as, diabetes, heart disease, digestive problems, and an increase in cancer.

Man-made synthetic chemical compounds, such as those used to make pharmaceuticals or pesticides or plastics or synthetic clothing are all petroleum-based and do cause cancers and other illnesses to humans and other animals.

Ever since the beginning of the industrial revolution (Post WWII) manufacturers have been coming up with ways to "improve" everything, food, household cleaners, clothing (textiles), etc.

As well. The prevalent use of growth hormones and steroids has risen exponentially over the last 50 years. We as a race have gotten progressively bigger from all of the hormones and steroids that are being used in beef, veal, poultry. There is also a trickle down effect to the milk, cheese, eggs, etc., which, we in turn, ingest.

Studies have proven that these chemicals are absorbed into our systems and work their way into our genetic makeup, we then pass these chemicals onto our off-spring, and so on and so on. . .

Another cancer that is on the rise is Melanoma (skin cancer). Why do you think that is? It is because of all of the chemicals that pople put on their skin. Creams, lotions, potions, hair spray, mousse, gels, colognes & perfumes, etc.

Initially, all of these things are absorbed into the epidermis then get absorbed into our other vital systems. Then, when you go out in the sun with all this stuff on your skin and get a "tan", you are literally baking your skin with all of these chemicals. So, these chemicals, over time, break down the skins ability to block UVA and UVB rays, which in turn, causes skin cancer.

Take a look at how illnesses and cancers are on the rise in our domestic animals/pets. Why? Because of all the chemicals that are put into animal food and through the "human" food that people feed their animals.

Most of this is just common sense. . .I would think?!

[Rick]

Another cancer that is on the rise is Melanoma (skin cancer). Why do you think that is? It is because of all of the chemicals that pople put on their skin. Creams, lotions, potions, hair spray, mousse, gels, colognes & perfumes, etc.

Actually, no. No to the chemicals. I've had skin cancer and I can assure you I put nothing on my skin. The rise in skin cancer has to do with the way we dress, the sun loving culture we have, and our direct exposure to the sun. The sun (or the UV rays) being the operative culprit here. Only in the last one or two generations have we seen men and women, scantily clad, laying on the beach cooking themselves in sunlight and/or going to tanning booths.

As for me, it had to do with my constant outdoor exposure because of work and the fact that I didn't wear a wide brimmed hat. The cancer was on my ear. You can bet I DO use chemicals today. It's called sun screen and I do wear a wide brimmed hat.


As to the organically grown debate, I doubt anyone is going to convince the other about their point of view. We believe what we choose to believe for our own reasons. It's one of the things that makes us 'interesting', I guess. Now, what's the perfect survival knife?

[Nativedude]

I have no doubt that people can get skin cancer as you did Rick, but. . . .

According to Dr. Ingar Nesmussen at the Denmark Medical Institute, In a 2003 report on dermatology and the effects of the sun on the skin (written after a 7 year study), the report concludes that 72% percent of the grades of melanoma that humans contract is directly related to the extensive use of synthetic chemicals used on the skin which breaks down the epidermis and allows the suns rays to penetrate and damage the stratum basale cells*.

*The stratum basale cells help to generate new skin cells which, as the outer skin dies, pushes their way up to the surface. Once the stratum basale cells get damaged it affects the cells growth and ability to protect the skin from UVB rays (the most damaging sun rays), as well as, the effects from pollutants in the air.

Other causes are from:

Smoking contributes 87% to the bodies inability to defend against the effects of UVB rays. (Smoke severely hinders the body's ability to keep the skin moist and nicotine dries out the body internally.)

Consumption of unhealthy foods with artificial additives and synthetic chemical compounds ingested into the body and a poor diet, contributes 63% to the bodies inability to defend against the effects of UVB rays.

Excessive consumption of Alcohol contributes 41% to the bodies inability to defend against the effects of UVB rays.

This is taken from the report from Dr. Nesmussen.

And Rick, the melanoma on your ear could have been a direct result of the shampoo you use on your hair. The shampoo get absorbed in the ear and breaks down the skin cells. Again, chemicals on the skin?! Just a thought!

[Rick]

Yeah, right. Like I use soap. Just kidding.

I can accept your argument. There may well be truth in it. The shampoo could have been a contributor or a cause.

[Chris]

Obesity does not cause cancer, but it is the #1 leading cause of heart disease and the #1 leading cause of diabetes. And obesity has "factually" been linked to all of the processed and fast food that people eat everyday. And, in fact, an article just came out about the fact that "enriched flour" causes the pancreas to not function properly, which leads to diabetes.

Point 1. Fast food != gardening. Really, you want to talk about how bad eating habits cause health problems, great, I agree with that notion 100%. But this has nothing to do with the notion that if you use a synthetic fertilizer on your blueberry bushes they'll have less antioxidants.

Point 2. Obesity does cause cancer. The #1 risk factor for most cancers is smoking. The #2 risk factor is obesity. Some of it is correlation, fat people probably don't eat a lot of fruits and veggies, but it is their lack of nutrition, rather than their huge waistline, that contributes to cancer. Some of it is causative though, fat has an inflammatory affect on the body which can slowly degrade and wound our organs, eventually allowing them to become cancerous.

Countries like Tibet never had a problems with people being over-weight or obese, but ever since the introduction of the "golden arches" to their country, they have seen an exponential increase in these two problems, as well as, diabetes, heart disease, digestive problems, and an increase in cancer.

Again, unrelated to organic gardening. And in fact if you wanted to take this argument in this direction I could point out that hundreds of years ago we all gardened organically and we all ate organic food and we all had a life expectancy of 35.

Man-made synthetic chemical compounds, such as those used to make pharmaceuticals or pesticides or plastics or synthetic clothing are all petroleum-based and do cause cancers and other illnesses to humans and other animals.

All plastics all made from petroleum and cause cancer? Did you read the links I posted? I suppose not, something like less than 1% of all cancers are from chemical pollutants. Not all plastics are made from petroleum, not all plastics leech dangerous chemicals, not all chemicals are cancerous.

Ever since the beginning of the industrial revolution (Post WWII) manufacturers have been coming up with ways to "improve" everything, food, household cleaners, clothing (textiles), etc.

And what has happened? Life expectancy has skyrocketed.

As well. The prevalent use of growth hormones and steroids has risen exponentially over the last 50 years. We as a race have gotten progressively bigger from all of the hormones and steroids that are being used in beef, veal, poultry. There is also a trickle down effect to the milk, cheese, eggs, etc., which, we in turn, ingest.

Fact: All cow's milk has hormones in it. Cows that are close to ovulating have extreme amounts. All animal flesh has hormones in it as well, organic raised or otherwise.

The reason we as a race have gotten bigger is because of increases in available nutrition and medical care. Malnutrition stunts growth and we rarely have malnourished kids in the developed world anymore.

Studies have proven that these chemicals are absorbed into our systems and work their way into our genetic makeup, we then pass these chemicals onto our off-spring, and so on and so on. . .

I actually majored in genetics in school, and thats bunk. Sorry. That is tinfoil hat quality bunk.

Another cancer that is on the rise is Melanoma (skin cancer). Why do you think that is? It is because of all of the chemicals that pople put on their skin. Creams, lotions, potions, hair spray, mousse, gels, colognes & perfumes, etc.

Sun exposure.

Initially, all of these things are absorbed into the epidermis then get absorbed into our other vital systems. Then, when you go out in the sun with all this stuff on your skin and get a "tan", you are literally baking your skin with all of these chemicals. So, these chemicals, over time, break down the skins ability to block UVA and UVB rays, which in turn, causes skin cancer.

More pseudoscience.

Take a look at how illnesses and cancers are on the rise in our domestic animals/pets. Why? Because of all the chemicals that are put into animal food and through the "human" food that people feed their animals.

I'm not even sure where you get all the statistics about X disease being on the rise, Ive been assuming you're correct, but I'd like to see a link or something. You have to understand a few things about statistics first.

1. Percentages matter, literal numbers do not, because populations have increased.

2. With many medical conditions doctors have gotten better at diagnosing things or records have been kept better. For instance people think Autism is on the rise, but in reality the definition of it has been expanded to include a wider range of symptoms, and doctors have been better educated to spot it and so correctly diagnose it. Autism as a percentage of the population isn't necessarily higher than it was in the past, it is just in the past you just called the kids "slow" or "special" and they did not have a clinical diagnosis.

3. One of the downsides of increased medical care is that you die from different things. It used to be you'd die from an infection, or dehydration, or the flu, or diarrhea. Now you live longer, but that means you end up dying from cancer or heart disease. Is cancer on the rise? Or are you just living longer?

Suppose you have a car and the tires always die after 10,000 miles. Now suppose you redesign the tires and now the car lasts 30,000 miles and then the engine dies. Is there a new engine killing pandemic? Or was the engine always vulnerable at 30,000 miles it is just you rarely got there before?

4. As people have become wealthier they have spent more on their pets and all of the above apply as such. They're more likely to go to a vet, to pay for expensive tests and diagnosis, for surgery. They're more likely to take better care of the animal, to help it live longer. Used to be you'd take the animal out back and shoot it, and animal may have had cancer, you didn't know, you just knew it was suffering. So when you say "something is on the rise" you need to compare to things like use of veternary services, availability of veternary services, animal life expectancies, etc.

[Chris]

by the way, John McCain got skin cancer from his time as a POW. Was it from all the fancy salon products he got offered by the vietnamese? Nah, it is because he was laid out in the sun often as punishment.

99/100 dermatologists will tell you to wear sunscreen and stay out of the sun as much as possible and not use tanning beds. They will not tell you to stop using shampoo.

http://www.skincancer.org/Guidelines/

[Mountain Man]

I stopped using shampoo no my own accord.

[Rick]

Hondas generally don't look that much better if you use shampoo on them anyway. Regular car soap is okay.