Survival Situation

[flandersander]

oh hopeak..just showing a differnt side of the coin

What there's more than two sides now? When did they change the shape of the coin? How many sides now? Is it a sphere? A penny in a marbal?

[dbldrew]

Hey all,

So me and my friend where having a discution and I wanted to know what the rest of you would do. So, if you where out skidooing in a weather temp. of around -20 degrees celcius with a slight snow fall. If you got lost or your skidoo broke down what would you do? Your tracks are covered your cell phone is dead or gets no reception, and you have no survival gear execpt a flint stick and a multi tool. What do you do now?

Nick

You have to understand that most on this forum believe in being totally prepared, so striking up a hypothetical survival scenario where you are not prepared, goes against everything most here believe in. So trying to strike up a debate will be a bit tough, it’s just hard for the members to debate that scenario that they feel they would never be in.

Now if you re-phrase your original question to say that the “survival pack” that you had strapped to the back of your sled must of come loose somewhere along the trail, therefore leaving you stranded with just the contents of your pocket (flint stick, & multi tool) that might be an easier “pill to swallow” for the members, and you might get some more feedback.

So to answer your question, I would work on shelter and then fire, and wait for rescue. Actually, I’m a bit of a gear head so I would first try to fix the sled and then just drive out. If I failed at getting it started again, then it’s on to shelter/fire.

[nhCyclist]

Note, I've changed this slightly.

I've never been snow-mobiling (I think that is what they call it around here), but my sense is that the clothing those guys wear is pretty warm.

Assuming you are going to stick it out there, have a few hours of light left and are not injured, I'd get on fire detail pretty quick.

15 Minutes Duration: Identify a place to survive, can save time/effort later
100 Minutes: Collect fire wood
60 Minutes: Process wood, but wait to start fire (starting fire should be *easy* using the fuel and/or oil out of your machine, and can be done after you build a structure)
120 Minutes: Construct shelter (should be getting dark now, or earlier)
Rest of Night: Build fire, ontinue to tend fire, collect wood, strategize for tomorrow

[Nickjames]

You have to understand that most on this forum believe in being totally prepared, so striking up a hypothetical survival scenario where you are not prepared, goes against everything most here believe in. So trying to strike up a debate will be a bit tough, it’s just hard for the members to debate that scenario that they feel they would never be in.

Now if you re-phrase your original question to say that the “survival pack” that you had strapped to the back of your sled must of come loose somewhere along the trail, therefore leaving you stranded with just the contents of your pocket (flint stick, & multi tool) that might be an easier “pill to swallow” for the members, and you might get some more feedback.

So to answer your question, I would work on shelter and then fire, and wait for rescue. Actually, I’m a bit of a gear head so I would first try to fix the sled and then just drive out. If I failed at getting it started again, then it’s on to shelter/fire.

Thank you, now i understand why i was having some truobles with this. So..... if you where in the situation listed above what would you do now?
Nick

[linkjare]

Well, first of all i would see which direction the wind is coming from, then find any large based object, for example; Boulder, Trees, Hill. Then I would start to excavate the snow on the opposite side that the wind is blowing against. Then pile the snow up to a relatively strong wall, collect as much greenery as possible and lay it out on the excavated ground. Brakes should be taken every 10 - 15 minutes, to make sure that you do not start to sweat. Then collect branches and light them with the flint rock. After the branches are lit, make sure to cover the fire with small bits of leaves or grass to make smoke. This should help rescue workers to locate your position. Then in the morning try to find your way back home, but never go to far from the vehicle.

[Nickjames]

Thank you linkjare, that was exactly what my friend said to do lol. Great survivors must think alike.

[wareagle69]

i dissagree linkjare
first off be prepared to signal first, if there are more than one of you work in shifts-this is twofold 1-keeps you from overheating while getting the job done 2-keeps and eye out for other traffic/rescue
signalling always comes first then fire(if needed) then shelter, also this exposes why layering your suvival gear is the basic rule of survival(in my book it is) useing the above mentioned scenario you had a pack but it came loose and fell off. well if you have a couple of tools on your belt maybe a space blanket in a pocket and also wearning a veat with many pockets that you would have a whistle in some rasins and m&ms plus firestarting and wood ccutting tools you will never have to put your self in danger of lost tools rendering you ineffective and wondering what you will do not that you lost your pack, some of you need to read your survival books all the way thru instead of just going to the fire and shelter sections

[wareagle69]

Well, first of all i would see which direction the wind is coming from, then find any large based object, for example; Boulder, Trees, Hill. Then I would start to excavate the snow on the opposite side that the wind is blowing against. Then pile the snow up to a relatively strong wall, collect as much greenery as possible and lay it out on the excavated ground. Brakes should be taken every 10 - 15 minutes, to make sure that you do not start to sweat. Then collect branches and light them with the flint rock. After the branches are lit, make sure to cover the fire with small bits of leaves or grass to make smoke. This should help rescue workers to locate your position. Then in the morning try to find your way back home, but never go to far from the vehicle.

what? why find your way home in the morning? if you followe the very first rule of going into the wilds it was to leave an intinerary with two responsible people that way if something goes wrong help is on the way. if 48 hours after your planned return or your life is in danger in your current location and you followed the itinerary that you gave then after 48 hours you may want to think about walking out
i'm confused how do you find your way back home w/o going to far from the vehicle

[wareagle69]

Thank you linkjare, that was exactly what my friend said to do lol. Great survivors must think alike.

begging your pardon how old are you 14? great survivor? and who is this linkjare and his experience and age cuz from what i have seen so far neither of you have either. don't take this the wrong way you are aksing questions but i would not be taking advise from someone on their first post, read thru some of the folks that have been here a while. remember what i said about observation? you will see here who sits behind the key board all day watching bear and les and reading lofty, vs those who get out and get the dirt time
your choice freind-make it wisely your life will depend on it

[Sourdough]

Well, first of all i would see which direction the wind is coming from, then find any large based object, for example; Boulder, Trees, Hill. Then I would start to excavate the snow on the opposite side that the wind is blowing against. Then pile the snow up to a relatively strong wall, collect as much greenery as possible and lay it out on the excavated ground. Brakes should be taken every 10 - 15 minutes, to make sure that you do not start to sweat. Then collect branches and light them with the flint rock. After the branches are lit, make sure to cover the fire with small bits of leaves or grass to make smoke. This should help rescue workers to locate your position. Then in the morning try to find your way back home, but never go to far from the vehicle.

HELLO................it is 14 Frecking Feet of snow down to the top on the alder bushes.

Grass what grass.......18 Frecking feet to the Wet, Ice encusted, GRASS....You may dig down to find a lake, It is all WHITE.

"Collect as much greenery as Possible".......Are you insane....have you ever even seen a Snow Machine......?

[Sourdough]

sorry boys ur dead..no plan no gear..too stupid to think..

I was "WRONG" and you are "CORRECT".

[crashdive123]

HELLO................it is 14 Frecking Feet of snow down to the top on the alder bushes, Grass what grass.......18 Frecking feet to the Wet, Ice encusted, GRASS....You may dig down to find a lake, It is all WHITE. "Collect as much greenery as Possible".......Are you insane....have you ever even seen a Snow Machine......?

I was "WRONG" and you are "CORRECT".

Ah - that there is some of that Alaska wilderness experience shining through.

[nell67]

Nick,before giving in to the "easy" answer of a newbie who has not posted before on the forum,listen to the other members here who have proven time and again they know what they are talking about,wareagle,hopeak,klkak,Trax,tsitenha,Jason_Mo ntana,just to name a few,LIVE in the temperatures you are talking about,they know what it takes to live,and to survive those type of temperatures.

[tsitenha]

I was going to say something but it has been said well enough already,

Nick James listen to what is being said

[Sourdough]

I wonder, really wonder if Net, Net, Net.........if we are helping anyone. More and more, I think it is just a game. An endless game, if children using computers to "Yank the chain of the Adults".

[doug1980]

I wonder, really wonder if Net, Net, Net.........if we are helping anyone. More and more, I think it is just a game. An endless game, if children using computers to "Yank the chain of the Adults".

Well I figure if you just help 1 out of 10 that's better than none. I don't understand why some people feel the need to make up these scenarios that they say "we aren't going to do it for real" than why ask? Worry about the things that you need to do to avoid this or the gear you need to have with you. I do know that the people on this forum have taught me a lot and for that I am gratefull. I may or may not be able to survive if it happens but I'm much better off now than when I started.

[crashdive123]

I just chalk it up to an active imagination fueled by television and movies. Ain't really a big deal - ask anything........just don't get upset with the answers.

[outbac1]

Well Nick, I remember being 14 some 36 years ago. I had a sled and my buddy and I couldn't wait to go sledding everyday after school and the weekends. We were always close enough to home that we could walk if we had to and we did more than once. We learned the hard way to fix our sleds in the woods and what spares to carry. Spare fuel, plugs, belts, siphon hose,and tools. But it wasn't all breakdowns.
We also learned to take a few other things with us and we used them on occasion. A compass to help find our way in whiteouts, matches for a fire, an axe and/or a saw for clearing windfalls, building shelter and fires, and a shovel. A nice collaspable aluminum shovel would be nice but there are some cheaper plastic ones that should work OK if cost is an issue. An old proverb said "The best way to make a fire is to rub two sticks together. Make sure one is a match". A flint bar is a nice back up but in this day and age a match is just so easy. There is just no good reason not to have a bunch of "strike anywhere" matches with a striker in your pockets and in your sled. A few years ago I did a two week backwoods canoe trip with a 76 year old Indian. He travelled light. Just a sleeping bag and mattress, heavy coat, raingear, moccassins, and one spare pair of socks. However he smoked a pipe and in his bag he had four large boxes of "strike anywhere" matches. He said "I use a lot for my pipe but if I need a fire I'm not messing around getting it lit".
As to a compass. Any compass from one of the major makers, Brunton/Nexus, Silva, Suunto, will do. The important thing is to learn to use it well. Preferably with a topo map.
Get the best quality gear you can. That dosen't mean it has to cost a lot. A $10.00 Nexus compass is more than adequate to serve your needs.
When you are out having fun take some time to practice with your stuff. Navigate with the map and compass. Build some fires and shelters. Experiment a bit.
We used to take some precooked hamburger patties in aluminum foil, make a small fire and heat them up in the coals. It made for a nice hot lunch on the trail.
For the most part you should be well dressed for your outing as going 50 - 80km/h in -20C is damn cold. Just remember to stay dry, don't sweat.
There is no end to the "KIT" you could take with you. Try to think of some things you could pake that will make your outing more enjoyable and safer.
A few suggestions:
Water bottle
Small cake rack- to support a pot over a fire, grill food
Small pot and lid- melt snow, make cofee/hot chocolate etc.
Cup
Spare socks, touque, facemask, mitts

[outbac1]

I had to leave my earlier post in a hurry and couldn't check it for errors, e.g.: pake instead of take. Ah! The life of a paramedic.

The point is to think about what you would like to have with you. Snowmobiles break down. Depending where you go you could end up a long way from home. Whatever kit you take with you make sure it is of good quality. An emergency situation is no time to have unreliable, easily broken gear that you don't know how to use. Practice with your stuff, make mistakes and learn from it.

As to your original question. A fire, shelter and signal are all important. What to do first really depends on the variables of the situation. If the weather is really nasty and you won't be missed for a few hours. Perhaps a shelter and fire are more important than a signal. There is no right answer. You have to assess the situation, investigate the options and decide on a plan of action that YOU think is right. Virtually any plan is better than no plan. So make one. Set out your priorities and act on it.

Wishing you all the best for your winter fun.

[trax]

Nick, you've received some good advice already, the best being--obviously--don't allow yourself to get stuck in that situation. Always let someone know where you're going. But the guy that said you're dead because of no plan, no gear is wrong. Probably the worst thing in that situation you could have happen is going through the ice. If you're alone and you get out of the water alive, make a shelter. There's lots of threads here on shelter making so there's no point in repeating all of that, use what materials are available to you, period. Inuit have been living in snow houses for millenia. You have to be able to get out of the wind. The wind will kill you, then make fire, then huddle. Initially, that's all you can do. You should hopefully have brought more than one manner of fire ignition with you. If you're still there in the morning, start thinking about drinking water. If you have to melt snow, dig down beneath the surface snow to the second and third layers. If there's more than one person, divide up the work and huddle together once you've got the fire going. If make a good enough shelter, you can peel off some clothes and dry them once you have a good fire going.

If you're traveling with more than one machine, (and this is a mistake I see far too much of) , space yourselves far enough apart so that if one guy does go through the ice, the other guy doesn't follow him in. If you're the lead machine, check over your shoulder for your partner(s) often. I often see snowmobilers following each other like it's rush hour in the city,nose to tail. It's stupid. In that situation, the guy on the "saved" machine is your ticket home.

In the scenario you described though, a light snow wouldn't have obliterated your tracks. If all you did was break down and you're dressed properly for the environment you could follow your own tracks back out, it kind of depends on how much daylight you have and how far you've already traveled.