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Thread: Revised Supplies List

  1. #1

    Question Revised Supplies List

    I revised my list for the next trip which will be in mid-October. I have tried to make things lighter than before and would like some help with any missed items or things I might be able to do without.

    The trip is in October, Arizona, and it will be covering 6 miles each way following a river through fairly level terrain. The elevation does not change enough to be important, and other than making our own trail, there shouldn't be any serious bush-whacking going on. We'll follow the river six miles in on the first day, camp the night, and return on the second day.

    Let me know...Thanks!


    Basics:
    Backpack
    Sleeping Bag
    Foam Pad
    Backpacking Tent
    Hiking Pole
    Folding Stool
    Hiking Shoes
    Camp Pillow, Stuff Sack

    Kit Items:
    Matches in Plastic Bottle
    Magnesium Flint
    550 Cord
    Whistle
    LED Flashlight
    K-Bar and Sheath
    Large Titanium Pot w/Lid
    Lexan Fork and Spoon
    Single Garbage Bag
    Folding Camp Saw
    Personal First Aid Kit
    Small Survival Kit
    Sun Screen
    OFF Spray
    Toilet Paper
    Backpack Plue Me Size Poncho
    Topo Map of Area
    Compass
    Two-Way Radios
    Deck of Cards

    Food Possibilities:
    Instant Oatmeal (Flavored and Pre-Packed)
    Top Ramen (Light and full of calories)
    Peanut Butter
    Mountain House Meals
    Handle of Rum (Garr...I needs Me Rum)
    Gatorade Drink Mix
    Katadyn Water Purifier Bottle



    Diversions:
    Digital Camera, Case, Cards, Batteries
    Camcorder, Case, Tapes, Batteries, Tripod
    Gold Pan, Orange Trowel, Sucker Bottle, Magnets
    Slingshot, Extra Bands
    .45 Long Colt Revolver, 12 Rounds Ammunition


    Fishing Stuff:
    Small Take Down Fishing Pole
    Small Plastic Tackle Kit
    Super Lightweight Fillet Knife
    Aluminum Foil, Spice Mix Container
    Lawrys Seasoned Salt

    Clothes, Outer Gear:
    Camo Bandana
    Winter Hat
    Hiking Socks (4)
    Boxers (4)
    Shirt (2)
    Shorts (1)
    Jeans (1)
    Long Underwear Top
    Long Underwear Bottom
    Sandals
    Belt
    Sun Glasses

    Small Kit Contains:
    Duct Tape
    Paracord
    Whistle
    Iodine Water Treatment Tabs
    Flashlight
    Emergency Fishing Kit
    Wal-Mart Poncho (2)
    Space Blanket (2)
    Waterproof Matches
    Flint
    Compass
    Signal Mirror
    Multi-tool
    Slingshot Bands
    Needle and Thread
    Pencils (3)
    All of the small kit items are in a waterproof lexan dry-box.


  2. #2
    a bushbaby owl_girl's Avatar
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    I think you forgot soap

  3. #3
    Super-duper Moderator Sarge47's Avatar
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    Cool Well, since you asked.....

    Quote Originally Posted by survivalhike View Post
    I revised my list for the next trip which will be in mid-October. I have tried to make things lighter than before and would like some help with any missed items or things I might be able to do without.

    The trip is in October, Arizona, and it will be covering 6 miles each way following a river through fairly level terrain. The elevation does not change enough to be important, and other than making our own trail, there shouldn't be any serious bush-whacking going on. We'll follow the river six miles in on the first day, camp the night, and return on the second day.

    Let me know...Thanks!


    Basics:
    Backpack
    Sleeping Bag
    Foam Pad
    Backpacking Tent
    Hiking Pole
    Folding Stool
    Hiking Shoes
    Camp Pillow, Stuff Sack

    Kit Items:
    Matches in Plastic Bottle
    Magnesium Flint
    550 Cord
    Whistle
    LED Flashlight
    K-Bar and Sheath
    Large Titanium Pot w/Lid
    Lexan Fork and Spoon
    Single Garbage Bag
    Folding Camp Saw
    Personal First Aid Kit
    Small Survival Kit
    Sun Screen
    OFF Spray
    Toilet Paper
    Backpack Plue Me Size Poncho
    Topo Map of Area
    Compass
    Two-Way Radios
    Deck of Cards

    Food Possibilities:
    Instant Oatmeal (Flavored and Pre-Packed)
    Top Ramen (Light and full of calories)
    Peanut Butter
    Mountain House Meals
    Handle of Rum (Garr...I needs Me Rum)
    Gatorade Drink Mix
    Katadyn Water Purifier Bottle



    Diversions:
    Digital Camera, Case, Cards, Batteries
    Camcorder, Case, Tapes, Batteries, Tripod
    Gold Pan, Orange Trowel, Sucker Bottle, Magnets
    Slingshot, Extra Bands
    .45 Long Colt Revolver, 12 Rounds Ammunition


    Fishing Stuff:
    Small Take Down Fishing Pole
    Small Plastic Tackle Kit
    Super Lightweight Fillet Knife
    Aluminum Foil, Spice Mix Container
    Lawrys Seasoned Salt

    Clothes, Outer Gear:
    Camo Bandana
    Winter Hat
    Hiking Socks (4)
    Boxers (4)
    Shirt (2)
    Shorts (1)
    Jeans (1)
    Long Underwear Top
    Long Underwear Bottom
    Sandals
    Belt
    Sun Glasses

    Small Kit Contains:
    Duct Tape
    Paracord
    Whistle
    Iodine Water Treatment Tabs
    Flashlight
    Emergency Fishing Kit
    Wal-Mart Poncho (2)
    Space Blanket (2)
    Waterproof Matches
    Flint
    Compass
    Signal Mirror
    Multi-tool
    Slingshot Bands
    Needle and Thread
    Pencils (3)
    All of the small kit items are in a waterproof lexan dry-box.
    1st, I'd use the extra pair of jeans, rolled-up, for a pillow, and leave the pillow at home, along with the camp-stool.

    2nd, Wal-Mart is selling a new Lexan utensil that has a fork on one side and a spoon on the other with a knife edge somewhere on it. It weighs about an ounce.

    3rd, Wal-mart's ponchos are for crap in any real outdoor deal. My kid brother and his teen-aged son wore them up Mt. Fuji in Japan and got soaked to the bone. Find a military one with grommets on the corners, it can double as a tarp-shelter in a pinch. just a couple of pennies from me.
    SARGE
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
    Albert Einstein

    Proud father of a US Marine....SEMPER FI!

    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    Benjamin Franklin

  4. #4

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    How much does it weigh?

  5. #5

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    I haven't checked the total weight just yet, but I am going to try to get it as low as possible. I was told by some backpackers that I want to try to stay at or below 40 otherwise it's going to be a death march rather than a hike.

  6. #6
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    [QUOTE=Sarge47;6818]1st, I'd use the extra pair of jeans, rolled-up, for a pillow, and leave the pillow at home, along with the camp-stool.

    2nd, Wal-Mart is selling a new Lexan utensil that has a fork on one side and a spoon on the other with a knife edge somewhere on it. It weighs about an ounce.

    3rd, Wal-mart's ponchos are for crap in any real outdoor deal. My kid brother and his teen-aged son wore them up Mt. Fuji in Japan and got soaked to the bone. Find a military one with grommets on the corners, it can double as a tarp-shelter in a pinch. just a couple of pennies from me.[/QUOTE

    i know the utensil you are talking about there is a knife on the fork and i have seen a folding one too almost like a pocket knife except with a spoon fork and knife with steak knife

  7. #7
    Super-duper Moderator Sarge47's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Right on!

    [QUOTE=WildGoth;6851]
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge47 View Post
    1st, I'd use the extra pair of jeans, rolled-up, for a pillow, and leave the pillow at home, along with the camp-stool.

    2nd, Wal-Mart is selling a new Lexan utensil that has a fork on one side and a spoon on the other with a knife edge somewhere on it. It weighs about an ounce.

    3rd, Wal-mart's ponchos are for crap in any real outdoor deal. My kid brother and his teen-aged son wore them up Mt. Fuji in Japan and got soaked to the bone. Find a military one with grommets on the corners, it can double as a tarp-shelter in a pinch. just a couple of pennies from me.[/QUOTE

    i know the utensil you are talking about there is a knife on the fork and i have seen a folding one too almost like a pocket knife except with a spoon fork and knife with steak knife
    I've seen the one you're talking about as well. The reason I recommended the one that I did is that SH is talking about a "backpacking trip". In this case weight is going to be a very important consideration. I'm sure SH is aware of that, being a "Colin Fletcher" fan and all.
    SARGE
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
    Albert Einstein

    Proud father of a US Marine....SEMPER FI!

    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    Benjamin Franklin

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge47 View Post
    3rd, Wal-mart's ponchos are for crap in any real outdoor deal. My kid brother and his teen-aged son wore them up Mt. Fuji in Japan and got soaked to the bone. Find a military one with grommets on the corners, it can double as a tarp-shelter in a pinch. just a couple of pennies from me.
    Mount Fuji, been there done that.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by survivalhike View Post
    I revised my list for the next trip which will be in mid-October. I have tried to make things lighter than before and would like some help with any missed items or things I might be able to do without.

    The trip is in October, Arizona, and it will be covering 6 miles each way following a river through fairly level terrain. The elevation does not change enough to be important, and other than making our own trail, there shouldn't be any serious bush-whacking going on. We'll follow the river six miles in on the first day, camp the night, and return on the second day.

    Let me know...Thanks!


    Basics:
    Backpack
    Sleeping Bag
    Foam Pad
    Backpacking Tent
    Hiking Pole
    Folding Stool
    Hiking Shoes
    Camp Pillow, Stuff Sack

    Kit Items:
    Matches in Plastic Bottle
    Magnesium Flint
    550 Cord
    Whistle
    LED Flashlight
    K-Bar and Sheath
    Large Titanium Pot w/Lid
    Lexan Fork and Spoon
    Single Garbage Bag
    Folding Camp Saw
    Personal First Aid Kit
    Small Survival Kit
    Sun Screen
    OFF Spray
    Toilet Paper
    Backpack Plue Me Size Poncho
    Topo Map of Area
    Compass
    Two-Way Radios
    Deck of Cards

    Food Possibilities:
    Instant Oatmeal (Flavored and Pre-Packed)
    Top Ramen (Light and full of calories)
    Peanut Butter
    Mountain House Meals
    Handle of Rum (Garr...I needs Me Rum)
    Gatorade Drink Mix
    Katadyn Water Purifier Bottle



    Diversions:
    Digital Camera, Case, Cards, Batteries
    Camcorder, Case, Tapes, Batteries, Tripod
    Gold Pan, Orange Trowel, Sucker Bottle, Magnets
    Slingshot, Extra Bands
    .45 Long Colt Revolver, 12 Rounds Ammunition


    Fishing Stuff:
    Small Take Down Fishing Pole
    Small Plastic Tackle Kit
    Super Lightweight Fillet Knife
    Aluminum Foil, Spice Mix Container
    Lawrys Seasoned Salt

    Clothes, Outer Gear:
    Camo Bandana
    Winter Hat
    Hiking Socks (4)
    Boxers (4)
    Shirt (2)
    Shorts (1)
    Jeans (1)
    Long Underwear Top
    Long Underwear Bottom
    Sandals
    Belt
    Sun Glasses

    Small Kit Contains:
    Duct Tape
    Paracord
    Whistle
    Iodine Water Treatment Tabs
    Flashlight
    Emergency Fishing Kit
    Wal-Mart Poncho (2)
    Space Blanket (2)
    Waterproof Matches
    Flint
    Compass
    Signal Mirror
    Multi-tool
    Slingshot Bands
    Needle and Thread
    Pencils (3)
    All of the small kit items are in a waterproof lexan dry-box.
    You're taking a lot of trash on a 12 miler.

    I would forgo the following:

    Chair (use your pack to lean against)

    Space blanket, only take one, you don't need a tertiary.

    Pillow, use some clothes in the sleeping bag stuff sack.

    I would forgo the camcorder, or choose either the camera or the camcorder, not both.

    Batteries, just ensure you install fresh batteries prior to your departure, the only thing I would take an extra battery for is your flashlight.

    What are the magnets for?

    Slingshot, I don't see that being entertaining for that long, not worth the extra weight IMHO

    Boxers, only need two, just wipe your *** and you will be straight.

    The bandana, why camo? Is that what you have? I think it would be more practical to have an orange or other bright colored bandana in an emergency situation? There is no need for you to be tactical on a hike.

    Poncho, I'd only take one, I have never had a prob with my mil issued poncho, I'd go with one of those, I'd buy the real mil one that runs around $40 new, vice the cheap knockoff. I'd only take one. That thing is about a Lb!

    What is the small kit? There is some redundency there from the top of your list to the bottom in regards to fire starting gear etc. You have matches and a flint listed up top, and you have the same thing listed on the bottom of your list?

    I wouldn't take an emergency fishing kit, even if it only weighs a couple of oz's.

    The lexan container, I wouldn't take that either, ziplog baggies would work, and they would conform to your pack better, have a dual purpose, and be lighter.

    With the weight I just saved you I'd carry more booze, that helps pass the time.

  10. #10

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    [QUOTE=With the weight I just saved you I'd carry more booze, that helps pass the time.[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for helping me eliminate some stuff, and sorry for the repetition on some items. I wanted to bring a small survival kit so we could try out some techniques like firemaking or shelter building, but I should probably start out a bit smaller and work my way up. I agree that the slingshot will be fun for all of about 15 min and then it's dead weight again.

    I think a 5th of rum is plenty for that short of a trip, and besides I don't want to hike with a hangover. And yeah the bandana is something I already have, but a blaze orange colored one will probably be better in a survival situation and will help keep me from getting shot if we encounter any hunters.

    I'll definately eliminate the chair, pillow, and extra clothes. I'm confident that I can wipe my arse thoroughly enough not to ruin my boxers. Another member said to stuff a pair of jeans with the clothes I bring to make a pillow, so that will help eliminate some junk.

    Thanks again!

  11. #11

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    Your welcome. You like rum eh, ever had "Sailor Jerry's?" It is the heat! It will get you wasted and it vastly more tasty then the old Capt, which is of course excellent, I do love me some rum.

  12. #12
    Super-duper Moderator Sarge47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by survivalhike View Post
    Thanks for helping me eliminate some stuff, and sorry for the repetition on some items. I wanted to bring a small survival kit so we could try out some techniques like firemaking or shelter building, but I should probably start out a bit smaller and work my way up. I agree that the slingshot will be fun for all of about 15 min and then it's dead weight again.

    I think a 5th of rum is plenty for that short of a trip, and besides I don't want to hike with a hangover. And yeah the bandana is something I already have, but a blaze orange colored one will probably be better in a survival situation and will help keep me from getting shot if we encounter any hunters.

    I'll definately eliminate the chair, pillow, and extra clothes. I'm confident that I can wipe my arse thoroughly enough not to ruin my boxers. Another member said to stuff a pair of jeans with the clothes I bring to make a pillow, so that will help eliminate some junk.

    Thanks again!
    Remember this, you're going out on a 'backpacking" trip. No one in their right mind concocts up a REAL survival scenario. That would be foolhardy. The reason I called the "Bare Wilderness Team" "Numptys" is not because they plan on going into the woods with only what they're wearing and their knives, but because they were given tons of advice from experts on this forum as well as forums elsewhere, almost all dead-set against it, and they refused to listen. This is a "created danger". A good outdoorsman will hardly ever run into a real survival scenario, and that is what you want. No one enjoys surviving, they just put up with it until they can regain whatever it was that they lost. Ask anyone who's lost a limb, or a best friend in one of these situations if they had fun while it was happening. Bet they tell you no! In my opinion, learning about "survival" is a way to help me enjoy the outdoors more as I know I as well-equipped as I can be for whatever might happen in a negative manner. Lay out all your equipment on a tarp. Look at it critically and decide if you really need each item. If your goal is to test your survival skills in such areas as, say, starting a fire without matches or lighter, fine, keep them in your pocket unless you find that you can't light the fire any other way. Finally, I'd take a "Rite-In-The-Rain" notebook and keep a daily journal, or log. True, you got the cam-corder...unless you drop it on some rocks and it breaks. Writing everything down helps keep you focused on what your trying to do. If you "test" something, write down what you are using, what you want to do, what really happened, what you learned, as well as what you might have done differently. Above all, have fun!
    SARGE
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
    Albert Einstein

    Proud father of a US Marine....SEMPER FI!

    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    Benjamin Franklin

  13. #13
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    All this for a two day trip?

    Basics:
    Backpack
    Sleeping Bag
    Foam Pad
    Backpacking Tent
    Hiking Pole
    Folding Stool
    Hiking Shoes
    Camp Pillow, Stuff Sack

    Kit Items:
    Matches in Plastic Bottle
    Magnesium Flint
    550 Cord
    Whistle
    LED Flashlight
    K-Bar and Sheath
    Large Titanium Pot w/Lid
    Lexan Fork and Spoon
    Single Garbage Bag
    Folding Camp Saw
    Personal First Aid Kit
    Small Survival Kit
    Sun Screen
    OFF Spray
    Toilet Paper
    Backpack Plue Me Size Poncho
    Topo Map of Area
    Compass
    Two-Way Radios
    Deck of Cards

    Food Possibilities:
    Instant Oatmeal (Flavored and Pre-Packed)
    Top Ramen (Light and full of calories)
    Peanut Butter
    Mountain House Meals
    Handle of Rum (Garr...I needs Me Rum)
    Gatorade Drink Mix
    Katadyn Water Purifier Bottle



    Diversions:
    Digital Camera, Case, Cards, Batteries
    Camcorder, Case, Tapes, Batteries, Tripod
    Gold Pan, Orange Trowel, Sucker Bottle, Magnets
    Slingshot, Extra Bands
    .45 Long Colt Revolver, 12 Rounds Ammunition


    Fishing Stuff:
    Small Take Down Fishing Pole
    Small Plastic Tackle Kit
    Super Lightweight Fillet Knife
    Aluminum Foil, Spice Mix Container
    Lawrys Seasoned Salt

    Clothes, Outer Gear:
    Camo Bandana
    Winter Hat
    Hiking Socks (4)
    Boxers (4)
    Shirt (2)
    Shorts (1)
    Jeans (1)
    Long Underwear Top
    Long Underwear Bottom
    Sandals
    Belt
    Sun Glasses

    Small Kit Contains:
    Duct Tape
    Paracord
    Whistle
    Iodine Water Treatment Tabs
    Flashlight
    Emergency Fishing Kit
    Wal-Mart Poncho (2)
    Space Blanket (2)
    Waterproof Matches
    Flint
    Compass
    Signal Mirror
    Multi-tool
    Slingshot Bands
    Needle and Thread
    Pencils (3)
    All of the small kit items are in a waterproof lexan dry-box.

  14. #14
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    How about:

    Basics:
    Backpack
    Poncho
    Sleeping Bag, I'd say wool blanket but I think I'm the only one who has one.

    Kit Items:
    Matches in Plastic Bottle
    Magnesium Flint
    K-Bar and Sheath
    Canteen and canteen cup.
    Lexan Fork and Spoon
    Single Garbage Bag
    Personal First Aid Kit
    Sun Screen
    OFF Spray
    Toilet Paper
    Topo Map of Area
    Compass
    Deck of Cards

    Food Possibilities:
    Instant Oatmeal (Flavored and Pre-Packed)
    Top Ramen (Light and full of calories)
    Beef jerdy or beef buillon
    Handle of Rum (Garr...I needs Me Rum)
    Katadyn Water Purifier Bottle

    Diversions: If you so choose.
    Digital Camera, Case, Cards, Batteries
    Camcorder, Case, Tapes, Batteries, Tripod

    Clothes, Outer Gear:
    Camo Bandana
    Winter Hat
    Hiking Socks (1) and wear one.
    Boxers (1) and wear one.
    Shirt (2)
    Shorts (1)
    Kaky pants, light, comfy, and easy to walk in.
    Belt
    Sun Glasses

    Small Kit Contains:
    Duct Tape
    Paracord
    Whistle
    Flashlight
    Emergency Fishing Kit
    Space Blanket (2)
    Signal Mirror
    Pencils (3)

    All of this put into a big plastic bag that is in your backpack.

  15. #15

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    Thank you all for the continuing suggestions, I'm glad I am surounded by people that like helping out.

    Stupid question for FVR...Do you cook the Jerky in the Bullion? If not what is the bullion for?

    Relply for Sarge...I'm definately not trying to create a surviaval situation. If I was trying to do that you wouldn't see me trying to bring enough stuff to break a pack mule's back along with me.

    For the USMarine...Can that Sailor Jerry's Rum be purchased anywhere, or is it harder to find? Basically can I buy it in the supermarket or do I need to go to a liquor store?

    And yes I know it's alot of stuff, but I'm not really used to backpacking and I'm prone to bringing too much stuff on all my outdoors trips. I want to bring everything on the first trip and then stand back and really see what is valuable before I go eliminating things with no real experience behind the decision.

  16. #16

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    [QUOTE=survivalhike;6894]
    For the USMarine...Can that Sailor Jerry's Rum be purchased anywhere, or is it harder to find? Basically can I buy it in the supermarket or do I need to go to a liquor store?

    QUOTE]


    I have only seen Sailor Jerry's at the liqour store. It is well worth the trip, it is quite potent and tasty.

  17. #17
    Super-duper Moderator Sarge47's Avatar
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    Cool I know.....

    Quote Originally Posted by survivalhike View Post
    Thank you all for the continuing suggestions, I'm glad I am surounded by people that like helping out.

    Stupid question for FVR...Do you cook the Jerky in the Bullion? If not what is the bullion for?

    Relply for Sarge...I'm definately not trying to create a surviaval situation. If I was trying to do that you wouldn't see me trying to bring enough stuff to break a pack mule's back along with me.

    For the USMarine...Can that Sailor Jerry's Rum be purchased anywhere, or is it harder to find? Basically can I buy it in the supermarket or do I need to go to a liquor store?

    And yes I know it's alot of stuff, but I'm not really used to backpacking and I'm prone to bringing too much stuff on all my outdoors trips. I want to bring everything on the first trip and then stand back and really see what is valuable before I go eliminating things with no real experience behind the decision.
    ...you're not trying to create a survival situation....intentionally; but carrying too much gear could do just that. I spread my stuff out into pockets, on my belt, (including the one I've made using that great web-site you shared, thanks again) and in a small day-pack. There was a reason Colin Fletcher traveled as light as he could. The human body requires more calories in the outdoors than it does in your home env.; The more energy you expend in the field the more you'll lose and have too make up somehow. BTW, FVR gave you a pretty good list, I'm jealous, Remember also your "Priority one" survival tool....your mind!
    SARGE
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
    Albert Einstein

    Proud father of a US Marine....SEMPER FI!

    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    Benjamin Franklin

  18. #18
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    You can boil the jerky in buillon, but I don't. I aways put a few beef buillon in my pouch because when you are cold, wet, and thirsty, a hot cup of beef buillon will make you feel good. Alot better than tea because it's more filling, so you think.

    The beef jerky is just great as you can eat it while you trek. I pref. to make my own and not salt it but rather pepper it. Pepper keeps your bronchi open, so they say. That is why when you have a cold and you are stuffed up, chicken noodle soup with alot of pepper just clears ya up for awhile.

    Or, this can be all bs. But it works for me.

    For a two day'r, I don't take much. But that's me and I'm comfy with it.

    Remember, 6 miles in the back country is alot diff. than 6 miles on the road. That pack is going to get heavy and uncomfortable real fast. I purchased a pack basket as I thought it would be great for treks. NOT! Bulky, heavy, bulky, and really bulky.

    Found a haversack and a blanket roll on a 2" wide strap worked just as well. Alot lighter and much more comfy.

  19. #19

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    for an overnighter,with each person responsible for hisownself, Id shoot for twelve pounds(not including food and water), fifteen to seventeen if group items are shared including the food not the water . That is really do-able, prioritize and go for multi function , think it through, it would be nice to have it all but someones gotta carry all that crap.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillHay View Post
    think it through, it would be nice to have it all but someones gotta carry all that crap.
    Great point.

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