Real MEN vs. Modern WIMP men or where did the adventure spirit go.

[BENESSE]

Well hmmm....I guess I'd like to bid for the real man award...I can't hold a women but can sure as heck take care of myself and my child. I have been married 3 times...yep count'em 3. I have a first, third wife! I have a child by my second wife and refused child support as I am her Father. I have raised her mostly alone with full custody since she was 1. I did remarry my first wife when she was 5. She is 6 now....Lasted less than a year and will take longer to get divorced. I also have 2 houses, 3 dogs, a horse, and a donkey. Oh and I also have a 60 hr. a week job and have for 20 yrs. Lets see 3 trucks...2 boats...8 acres just sayin' I have so many choices and it is my way that nothing can stop the train! Is it stressful? Heck yeah, put us in church last Sunday. When it is all said and done I will have raised an Angel from heaven! I never look back just keep up my fortitude and move forward.

Dad used to say " I beleive everything will be alright now that the pecking order is established!".

And you deserve it!
What's more, you teach your daughter by example every day what a real man is so that one day she'll be able to tell the difference and pick someone just like her daddy. That kind of legacy is worth more than any material thing you can give her.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

These are just personal views and my definition would be a person that rises to the challenge whatever it may be. It could be the man that goes to a demeaning job for 40 years to support is family or the other guy that charges a machine gun with a bayonet. It is an indominable spirit that will ALWAYS rise to the occasion. Many are untested but this does not mean they don't have it in them. There are a lot of excuses to take the easy way out these days. Real men can be good or bad and walking tall is threatening to the weak and frowned apon. In the early 1900's Japan was integrating with the rest of the world and felt they were loosing face because of thier fudal wars and the once revered Samoria were reduced to being street performers. One man chose thier defensive techniques to start the sport of Judo (the gentle way) in an effort to preserve that way without offending public opinion. I remember my father talking of the days of wooden ships and iron men and only point this out to say it has been going on a long time. Each advancement has weakened us becoming a crutch. Something primitive survivalists should take to heart. Just being out doors and being subjected to the elements all your life toughens you. I saw a show about aboriginy people up on the Nile, these guys had calouses on thier face from being sand blasted by blowing wind and sand. Men are soft and getting softer all the time. Still I believe it to be a mind set and as long as you rise to the challenge you can call yourself a "real" man but because we have become so soft many will be dead men, still a man though.

[Justin Case]

Well hmmm....I guess I'd like to bid for the real man award...I can't hold a women but can sure as heck take care of myself and my child. I have been married 3 times...yep count'em 3. I have a first, third wife! I have a child by my second wife and refused child support as I am her Father. I have raised her mostly alone with full custody since she was 1. I did remarry my first wife when she was 5. She is 6 now....Lasted less than a year and will take longer to get divorced. I also have 2 houses, 3 dogs, a horse, and a donkey. Oh and I also have a 60 hr. a week job and have for 20 yrs. Lets see 3 trucks...2 boats...8 acres just sayin' I have so many choices and it is my way that nothing can stop the train! Is it stressful? Heck yeah, put us in church last Sunday. When it is all said and done I will have raised an Angel from heaven! I never look back just keep up my fortitude and move forward.

Dad used to say " I beleive everything will be alright now that the pecking order is established!".

Good For You ,, Here Comes some Rep ! wish It was More TCB, Good Man !

[alexander super-apple]

Exactly! The Native Americans wore furs in the winter, and now everyones running around searching for Gore Tex and North Face and Camelbaks. Did the Native Americans have any of that? No. Were they far superior than ANY of us here in terms or survival skills? Definitely. I understand how you might bring sock liners in the winter to whisk away sweat and avoid blisters, or a knife with a VG10 blade rather than 440, but we take it all too far! We spend hundreds of dollars on the best boots. Theyre BOOTS! I understand not running off into the bush in crocs, but come on, people! The bottom line is, the human being has become soft. Thousands of years of inventing things with our precious intelligence has removed our need for things like night-vision and acute senses. Compared to any animal you'll find in the wild, we're soft, pathetic creatures that rely on equipment. Now we can't avoid that anymore, but we DO NOT NEED the best gear. We just need to go. Man has become asphyxiated on his things being top of the line because man has come so far that he can have those things. We can actually make them. 50 years ago, did we have Gore Tex? Did we have Camelbaks? This dilema was actually easier for us because we didn't have to realize that those things aren't necessary. And we didn't have to realize that because those things didn't exist. The farther along we come, the tougher this is going to be. But the tougher we can become. We have to sit down and realize that those things aren't necessary, and we're still MEN.

[Sarge47]

Exactly! The Native Americans wore furs in the winter, and now everyones running around searching for Gore Tex and North Face and Camelbaks. Did the Native Americans have any of that? No. Were they far superior than ANY of us here in terms or survival skills? Definitely. I understand how you might bring sock liners in the winter to whisk away sweat and avoid blisters, or a knife with a VG10 blade rather than 440, but we take it all too far! We spend hundreds of dollars on the best boots. Theyre BOOTS! I understand not running off into the bush in crocs, but come on, people! The bottom line is, the human being has become soft. Thousands of years of inventing things with our precious intelligence has removed our need for things like night-vision and acute senses. Compared to any animal you'll find in the wild, we're soft, pathetic creatures that rely on equipment. Now we can't avoid that anymore, but we DO NOT NEED the best gear. We just need to go. Man has become asphyxiated on his things being top of the line because man has come so far that he can have those things. We can actually make them. 50 years ago, did we have Gore Tex? Did we have Camelbaks? This dilema was actually easier for us because we didn't have to realize that those things aren't necessary. And we didn't have to realize that because those things didn't exist. The farther along we come, the tougher this is going to be. But the tougher we can become. We have to sit down and realize that those things aren't necessary, and we're still MEN.

Well, we do have WOMEN on here as well, are you a chauvinist? Back in the old days the restrictions on what you could hunt wasn't like it is today. Don't knock modern technology; it saves the lives of animals that might otherwise become extinct. The American Bison is a good example. Also, many lands that were wide open are now State Parks. Life goes on. I like the new tchno stuff, it saves wear & tear on a 63 year old!

[alexander super-apple]

No, I respect that. My greatest wish is for everyone to live like the Native Americans, as I think I've stated, and if we did, we would respect the land and wouldn't need to protect nature by making state parks, or protect animals species. We would take only what we needed. The reason the American Bison is threatened is because people hunted it without respect. The plains indians would have never let the species become threatened, and had such respect for the earth that protecting it wouldn't be an issue.

[Rick]

Well, your facts are a bit out of phase with reality but okay. You're looking at this whole Native American thing from an overly optimistic eye. You aren't looking at how many starved or froze to death because they lived off the land. You aren't looking at how many died from disease because they simply didn't have appropriate medical care. You can Shaman yourself silly but if you don't have the appropriate meds then even a small infection becomes your death.

I understand your desire to protect nature and all of us on here believe in that. But we also need to temper that understanding with simple fact.

As to the plains Buffalo, it was hunted to near extinction to deprive the Native Americans of a vital resource and to capitalize on the hides. Mountains of carcasses lay rotting in the sun. The meat and other resources unused.

There is some speculation that the Mammoth was hunted to extinction by indigenous peoples. There are other schools of thought as well but I suspect the pressure applied by hunting at least helped in its demise. How would a people know they had hunted an animal to extinction or near extinction? How would they even know that concept when all their life that animal was just beyond the next ridge line? In their mind that animal would still be beyond the next ridge or the next...maybe the next.

[Sarge47]

The Native Americans made their own tools & weapons, until some smart trader came along and traded guns, knives & tools for whatever they were wanting at the time. The N.A.'s were glad to get their hands on the newest "hi-tech" stuff! They weren't stupid. They did what they had to do until something better came along. My wife has two different tribes of NA blood in her. She loves her AC in the hot summer. While your vision sounds noble on the surface, it is highly unrealistic. For one thing I don't want to live like they did; nor do a lot of people. Would you force everyone to live like that? Now you start to see the problem. Enjoy what's left of the outdoors while it's still there, it's going fast!

[alexander super-apple]

Sarge, I know that the Native Americans traded for guns and other modern tools when they could. But my point is their respect for the land. We all know that the plains indians respected the buffalo over almost everything, and used everything they possibly could from it. And Rick is right about the whole ridge concept. His point is that they didn't know they were capable of killing off a species, is it not? They didn't know. And if they did know, would they have acted the same? The mammoth walked the earth a VERY long time ago, and we can agree that the natives didn't know as much then. But the plains indians DID know. Other tribes knew about the potential of man to destroy. My point is that with no knowlege, there is no responsibility. But when we know that we're killing off a species or harming the environment, it's our responsibility to make it right. I don't see anything wrong with using guns to hunt. They don't hurt anything, they just make hunting, which would happen anyway, easier. But what if that smart trader came along with a machine that could produce food, but destroyed the environment and killed plants and animals? When I talk about the Native Americans, I mean the ones who respected the land the most. My question for you is this: If those Native Americans could get their hands on such a machine... Would they use it?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Some tribes adopted european ways rapidly and we called them the civilized tribes. In the end they did not fair any better. Population is what brings balance to nature not indian morality or modern technology. The mear presence of man deprives wild life of habitat. Those things can have affect but population is the main issue. Sarge said on one of his posts that the wilderness is disappearing fast. This is more true than any imagine.

[Sarge47]

Sarge, I know that the Native Americans traded for guns and other modern tools when they could. But my point is their respect for the land. We all know that the plains indians respected the buffalo over almost everything, and used everything they possibly could from it. And Rick is right about the whole ridge concept. His point is that they didn't know they were capable of killing off a species, is it not? They didn't know. And if they did know, would they have acted the same? The mammoth walked the earth a VERY long time ago, and we can agree that the natives didn't know as much then. But the plains indians DID know. Other tribes knew about the potential of man to destroy. My point is that with no knowlege, there is no responsibility. But when we know that we're killing off a species or harming the environment, it's our responsibility to make it right. I don't see anything wrong with using guns to hunt. They don't hurt anything, they just make hunting, which would happen anyway, easier. But what if that smart trader came along with a machine that could produce food, but destroyed the environment and killed plants and animals? When I talk about the Native Americans, I mean the ones who respected the land the most. My question for you is this: If those Native Americans could get their hands on such a machine... Would they use it?

How can someone asnwer that? Different tribes view things differently. There is a misconception that , back in the wild west it was only "whites vs. Indians!" However, the sad truth is that different tribes warred with each other constantly! Each tribe would have wiped their NA enemies off of the face of the earth if they could have! Your viewpoint is highly unrealistic & based on a "White-man's" flawed view of their life style. I don't know about you, but I ain't eating dog unless I absolutely have too. The NAs were good at using what they had, yes; but that doesn't mean that we have to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Today the NAs appreciate Technology just as much as we do! They would have loved to have Gore-Tex back then, who wouldn't? Have you ever went to an Indain "Pow-Wow?" They're quite interesting. The thing that you need to remember is that there are many full-blooded NAs that view ALL white men, including you, as their enemies. Then there are those who view us as fellow human beings. Remember, in the eyes of many NAs, it was the Whit men that stole their land & forced them to live on reservations. Why should they give 2 farts in the wind about ho you might view their original lifestyle? This is why I always liked the movie: "Thunderheart" with Val Kilmer. You weren't born yet during the 2nd "Wounded Knee" episode. That in itself is an interesting story.

[tsitenha]

alexander super-apple, you glorify the Aboriginal way to much, we weren't that all knowing, we made bad judgement calls just like the white man did.
You speak of the plains indian with such a high reverence, did you know that the Lakota were a woodland (hunter/gatherer/farmer) indian till the advent of the horse which allowed them deep into the plains and change to the plains model you refer to. They ended up relying on the buffalo to such an extent that they were not able to revert and use the agricultural heritage that they once knew, things were happening way to fast.
Sarge is right we wared against each other a much as we were able to for land and power.
Don't make us as sage when we were and are just men.

As far as using that said machine I garantee you we would if if it could give us an edge over the others (hence the musket and such) did think twice about wiping out ours enemies or at least trying to. (humand are so hard to completely eradicate)

[klickitat]

I look at remarkable men of the past and realize that I will never measure up. The problem, was that the majority of men back then, never did either. That is why these stories were written. These guys were incredible.

What about to day, people like Marcus Torrel? There are always people who do extraordinary things and we all marvel.

[alexander super-apple]

alexander super-apple, you glorify the Aboriginal way to much, we weren't that all knowing, we made bad judgement calls just like the white man did.
You speak of the plains indian with such a high reverence, did you know that the Lakota were a woodland (hunter/gatherer/farmer) indian till the advent of the horse which allowed them deep into the plains and change to the plains model you refer to. They ended up relying on the buffalo to such an extent that they were not able to revert and use the agricultural heritage that they once knew, things were happening way to fast.
Sarge is right we wared against each other a much as we were able to for land and power.
Don't make us as sage when we were and are just men.

As far as using that said machine I garantee you we would if if it could give us an edge over the others (hence the musket and such) did think twice about wiping out ours enemies or at least trying to. (humand are so hard to completely eradicate)

I really don't mean to glorify, and I know that we're all men. I know that Native Americans warred with each other, and made mistakes too. But compare what the white man has done to the earth with what Native Americans have done. Compare each race's impact on the planet. Maybe they made mistakes. Maybe they WOULD have used the machine I mentioned. I don't care if they DIDN'T respect the land, the point is, they didn't harm it nearly as much, and overall, I care about that the most. I don't mean that everyone should have the same great passion for nature, but it should be taken care of so those of us that do don't have a passion for something that's nearly gone. My point with all of this is that if we DID live like that, we wouldn't lose an area of rainforest the size of a football field every second. If we did, we wouldn't have 8% of our original old growth forests left.

[alexander super-apple]

I'm going to assume that everyone here has been in the mountains. Assuming that, I think everyone here has experienced that feeling you get there, where you feel so small and insignificant amongst their sheer magnitude and majesty. To me, it's the greatest feeling in the world. And it exemplifies the true nature of man's existence, that we're so insignificant compared to all of nature. We're just a part of it all, however much of it we have the power to destroy. Everything comes from nature, and we're just another species, one that posesses the intelligence to make things from other parts of it. To me, when we destroy nature, we're destroying the biggest and deepest part of ourselves. Maybe my talk of Native Americans is foolish and ignorant. Maybe some of us want Gore Tex. But who are we? Haven't we all come to this forum sharing a passion for nature? Maybe I'm naive. But I think you all know what I mean.

[2dumb2kwit]

I'm going to assume that everyone here has been in the mountains. Assuming that, I think everyone here has experienced that feeling you get there, where you feel so small and insignificant amongst their sheer magnitude and majesty. To me, it's the greatest feeling in the world. And it exemplifies the true nature of man's existence, that we're so insignificant compared to all of nature. We're just a part of it all, however much of it we have the power to destroy. Everything comes from nature, and we're just another species, one that posesses the intelligence to make things from other parts of it. To me, when we destroy nature, we're destroying the biggest and deepest part of ourselves. Maybe my talk of Native Americans is foolish and ignorant. Maybe some of us want Gore Tex. But who are we? Haven't we all come to this forum sharing a passion for nature? Maybe I'm naive. But I think you all know what I mean.

Most of us here, have a great love of nature. What some of us think, is that some of the things that you are speaking about, aren't just black and white. There are many shades of grey, in reality. While it's true that we cut down forest, we also plant and grow new forest. We may clear large areas to farm, but so many less people now die of starvation that it's hard to call that a bad thing. Along with some of the bad things have come a great deal of good things. Compare the life expectancy now, compared to 100 years ago. You say that today's man is weak, but others could argue that he is better off, living twice as long. Maybe some of that longer life comes from not having to work so dang hard, just to survive.

[NightShade]

Well put 2d2k

[Sarge47]

I'm going to assume that everyone here has been in the mountains. Assuming that, I think everyone here has experienced that feeling you get there, where you feel so small and insignificant amongst their sheer magnitude and majesty. To me, it's the greatest feeling in the world. And it exemplifies the true nature of man's existence, that we're so insignificant compared to all of nature. We're just a part of it all, however much of it we have the power to destroy. Everything comes from nature, and we're just another species, one that posesses the intelligence to make things from other parts of it. To me, when we destroy nature, we're destroying the biggest and deepest part of ourselves. Maybe my talk of Native Americans is foolish and ignorant. Maybe some of us want Gore Tex. But who are we? Haven't we all come to this forum sharing a passion for nature? Maybe I'm naive. But I think you all know what I mean.

1st off, Alexander S-A, just let me state right from the start that I'm not putting you down. I think that for a 16 year old to have the passion that you do for our country & nature is great! It's because I care about the young people of today that I write what I do.

Yes, I have been in the Rocky Mountains & have even camped out on Wolf Creek pass...in the summer of course. However I beleive that Nature was created for man, not the other way around. We should use the land properly, yes, but not as servants to it, but as concerned citizens.

Also, don't put down ANY new technological products such as Gore-Tex. No one is going to look upon you any different if you wear a GT coat, or a fur one made from a large mammal.

Next, why do you keep insisting that it's the Naitive Americans who are the role-models for nature loving? Today there are many organizations that promote the safe-guarding of nature. The Sierra Club & The Mountaineers stress "leave-no-trace" camping. Green Peace & many other groups fight to save the planet from destroying itself. The truth is that our huge population growth is dwarfing what used to be the Wilderness. However I believe that Nature has it's checks & balances & that at some point things will even out. Meanwhile I suggest that we all enjoy what we can while we can! Oh, & great post 2D!

[CoyoteBC]

No, I respect that. My greatest wish is for everyone to live like the Native Americans, as I think I've stated, and if we did, we would respect the land and wouldn't need to protect nature by making state parks, or protect animals species. We would take only what we needed. The reason the American Bison is threatened is because people hunted it without respect. The plains indians would have never let the species become threatened, and had such respect for the earth that protecting it wouldn't be an issue.

Pure wishful thinking.
A perfect example is here on the west coast.
An aboriginal group would move into one of their camp sites, then exploit the resources to the extent their technology allowed. When they could not get enough food to survive they moved to their next camp.
Some groups would return annually to a camp, sometimes every second year. They did this because this is how long the area took to recover.
The bison was chased off cliffs and killed in large numbers by aboriginal groups.
Once again it was technology more then anything that limited the ability of early man to fully exploit nature.
The desire to eliminate the bison, was a desire to remove the food source from the plains Indian. It was a form of warfare

[CoyoteBC]

I really don't mean to glorify, and I know that we're all men. I know that Native Americans warred with each other, and made mistakes too. But compare what the white man has done to the earth with what Native Americans have done. Compare each race's impact on the planet. Maybe they made mistakes. Maybe they WOULD have used the machine I mentioned. I don't care if they DIDN'T respect the land, the point is, they didn't harm it nearly as much, and overall, I care about that the most. I don't mean that everyone should have the same great passion for nature, but it should be taken care of so those of us that do don't have a passion for something that's nearly gone. My point with all of this is that if we DID live like that, we wouldn't lose an area of rainforest the size of a football field every second. If we did, we wouldn't have 8% of our original old growth forests left.

If we had been 50 to 100 years later in coming to North America it is likely that the Iroquois would have carved out a huge empire.
My Celtic ancestors had similar ideas and mythologies as other neolithic people.
All peoples lived pretty much the same way with similar mythologies until quite recently.

If you want to look at a modern "real man" google a young man who died 30 years ago called Terry Fox, or another called Rick Hansen.