an absolute must read

[owl_girl]

Ok "lashing out" was wrong...lol, but i was thinking about our canadians here...not really you.

Interesting that you do not consider questions as viable answers though. And saying i do not answer is strange...maybe you just do not see the answers in my posts ?
Can we really talk about group dynamics without asking ourselves what those dynamics are ?
You see to me those questions are answers in themselves.

I can see some answers in there, answers about what humans in general might do but very rarely what you personally would do, maybe I was missing something in your post.

[Sarge47]

If I choose to fallow a leader that person would be calm, logical, and compassionate. But now I have a question, if the man you wanted the knife from decided he didn’t want to be in the group and he started walking away would you chase him down and take it even though he’s not part of your group?

Excellent question, Owl Girl. The answer is "NO!". He would be free to go his own way. As a matter of fact, he would have to! The old trite saying goes: "There is no 'I' in the word 'Team'." That's true here as well.

However, what if the owner of the knife has no food or water? If he wants to share with the group then everything that everyone has becomes "Community property", including his expensive piece of hardware if it is deemed so! It has to. That's what Vol West is trying to say in his highly articulated manner, and that's what I'm saying even more bluntly! You were also right earlier when you spoke of the "power". I believe that the leader would also have to be accountable to the group and could be replaced if it were warranted. In our modern American society most of has been led to believe that we have to strive for the top positions of what ever field we are working in. If we start at the bottom then we want to work our way up. The problem is that not all of us are qualified to be at the top! I have worked at many different jobs, and under many different management people. Many were bad, some were alright, and a few were fantastic. Those few I would follow anywhere! A leader would have to be picked by mutual consent of the group, all members if possible. They would also have to keep said leader accountable. Notice I did not mention gender?

[FVR]

This kind of gives all the impression of one's self.

Here goes.

I have always been the loner, don't depend on anyone. That way, you don't get let down. I can function very well in a team, if the team members all have the same common goal, and they take is seriously.

I am an alpha male.

Like wareagle, people give me a wide berth as I am not a friendly looking guy. Well, I'm just not friendly. No tats just the 100 yard stare.

I am known as the guy that gets the job done. So, that is what I would do. You need a ditch, I'll get it made, you need wood, done. You stand over me and try to give me orders with your hands in your pocket, we gonna have a little talk.

I don't play the little horseplay games that some young men play. If I'm going to use my strength, it's serious.

I am also a warrior as volwest and wareagle are. No better, no worse.

If ryaninmaine shows up with his 5 brothers and 5 brothers in law, I will be packing my bags. Too many family members, ya piss one off and the whole clan comes looking for you. Tensions are going to be high and control is paramount.

So, if you wanted me in the group, I'd come in. If you did not, I'd go on my way down the trail.

[Sarge47]

This kind of gives all the impression of one's self.

Here goes.

I have always been the loner, don't depend on anyone. That way, you don't get let down. I can function very well in a team, if the team members all have the same common goal, and they take is seriously.

I am an alpha male.

Like wareagle, people give me a wide berth as I am not a friendly looking guy. Well, I'm just not friendly. No tats just the 100 yard stare.

I am known as the guy that gets the job done. So, that is what I would do. You need a ditch, I'll get it made, you need wood, done. You stand over me and try to give me orders with your hands in your pocket, we gonna have a little talk.

I don't play the little horseplay games that some young men play. If I'm going to use my strength, it's serious.

I am also a warrior as volwest and wareagle are. No better, no worse.

If ryaninmaine shows up with his 5 brothers and 5 brothers in law, I will be packing my bags. Too many family members, ya piss one off and the whole clan comes looking for you. Tensions are going to be high and control is paramount.

So, if you wanted me in the group, I'd come in. If you did not, I'd go on my way down the trail.

So let me ask you this, since you just put the truth to what I asked earlier about "Independent types fitting into a team." What do you look for in a good leader

[spiritman]

lol sarge the simple statement is to make sure we all can see the deeper meaning in what he had to say with the rest of the message, even if we have to go back and read it again.

I'm an abrupt person and a lazy speaker, just look at most of my posts. Because of that I know the value of taking longer to say what your trying to get across. People listen more when you say more even if you repeat yourself in different words. For one thing it's easier to blow off a single sentence than a page of information.

As for the concepts in simple terms I think your right, but it takes an unusual person to see it straight off.

When it comes to answering questions with answers? The best teachers know that making someone think through and figure out the answer has more value than mindlessly giving the correct answer.

And thanks Volwest, you gave me quite a complement.

[FVR]

JUSTICE

Definition: Justice is defined as the practice of being fair and consistent. A just person gives consideration to each side of a situation and bases rewards or punishments on merit.

Suggestions for Improvement: Be honest with yourself about why you make a particular decision. Avoid favoritism. Try to be fair at all times and treat all things and people in an equal manner.


JUDGMENT

Definition: Judgment is your ability to think about things clearly, calmly, and in an orderly fashion so that you can make good decisions.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can improve your judgment if you avoid making rash decisions. Approach problems with a common sense attitude.


DEPENDABILITY

Definition: Dependability means that you can be relied upon to perform your duties properly. It means that you can be trusted to complete a job. It is the willing and voluntary support of the policies and orders of the chain of command. Dependability also means consistently putting forth your best effort in an attempt to achieve the highest standards of performance.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can increase your dependability by forming the habit of being where you're supposed to be on time, by not making excuses and by carrying out every task to the best of your ability regardless of whether you like it or agree with it.


INITIATIVE

Definition: Initiative is taking action even though you haven't been given orders. It means meeting new and unexpected situations with prompt action. It includes using resourcefulness to get something done without the normal material or methods being available to you.

Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your initiative, work on staying mentally and physically alert. Be aware of things that need to be done and then to do them without having to be told.


DECISIVENESS

Definition: Decisiveness means that you are able to make good decisions without delay. Get all the facts and weight them against each other. By acting calmly and quickly, you should arrive at a sound decision. You announce your decisions in a clear, firm, professional manner.

Suggestions for Improvement: Practice being positive in your actions instead of acting half-heartedly or changing your mind on an issue.


TACT

Definition: Tact means that you can deal with people in a manner that will maintain good relations and avoid problems. It means that you are polite, calm, and firm.

Suggestions for Improvement: Begin to develop your tact by trying to be courteous and cheerful at all times. Treat others as you would like to be treated.


INTEGRITY

Definition: Integrity means that you are honest and truthful in what you say or do. You put honesty, sense of duty, and sound moral principles above all else.

Suggestions for Improvement: Be absolutely honest and truthful at all times. Stand up for what you believe to be right.


ENTHUSIASM

Definition: Enthusiasm is defined as a sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of your duties. If you are enthusiastic, you are optimistic, cheerful, and willing to accept the challenges.

Suggestions for Improvement: Understanding and belief in your mission will add to your enthusiasm for your job. Try to understand why even uninteresting jobs must be done.


BEARING

Definition: Bearing is the way you conduct and carry yourself. Your manner should reflect alertness, competence, confidence, and control.

Suggestions for Improvement: To develop bearing, you should hold yourself to the highest standards of personal conduct. Never be content with meeting only the minimum requirements.


UNSELFISHNESS

Definition: Unselfishness means that you avoid making yourself comfortable at the expense of others. Be considerate of others. Give credit to those who deserve it.

Suggestions for Improvement: Avoid using your position or rank for personal gain, safety, or pleasure at the expensive of others. Be considerate of others.


COURAGE

Definition: Courage is what allows you to remain calm while recognizing fear. Moral courage means having the inner strength to stand up for what is right and to accept blame when something is your fault. Physical courage means that you can continue to function effectively when there is physical danger present.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can begin to control fear by practicing self-discipline and calmness. If you fear doing certain things required in your daily life, force yourself to do them until you can control your reaction.


KNOWLEDGE

Definition: Knowledge is the understanding of a science or art. Knowledge means that you have acquired information and that you understand people. Your knowledge should be broad, and in addition to knowing your job, you should know your unit's policies and keep up with current events.

Suggestions for Improvement: Suggestions for Improvement: Increase your knowledge by remaining alert. Listen, observe, and find out about things you don't understand. Study field manuals and other military literature.


LOYALTY

Definition: Loyalty means that you are devoted to your country, the Corps, and to your seniors, peers, and subordinates. The motto of our Corps is Semper Fidelis!, (Always Faithful). You owe unwavering loyalty up and down the chain of command, to seniors, subordinates, and peers.

Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your loyalty you should show your loyalty by never discussing the problems of the Marine Corps or your unit with outsiders. Never talk about seniors unfavorably in front of your subordinates. Once a decision is made and the order is given to execute it, carry out that order willingly as if it were your own.


ENDURANCE

Definition: Endurance is the mental and physical stamina that is measured by your ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress, and hardship. For example, enduring pain during a conditioning march in order to improve stamina is crucial in the development of leadership.

Suggestions for Improvement: Develop your endurance by engaging in physical training that will strengthen your body. Finish every task to the best of your ability by forcing yourself to continue when you are physically tired and your mind is sluggish.


This about does it.

I look for me, but better and wiser. Does not have to be older as there are many younger men / woman that are worth their salt.

Since this is not a military style team, ultimately the leader will be chosen. One who tries to take control without agreement, falls short.

Understand, the leader does not need to be an expert in everything. They need to be able to take the information given and make a decission. They must also have the loyalty from those they lead, to the point where if they have to make a difficult decission, against the ideals of sum, they can do it and those will follow.

[owl_girl]

That’s a really good post FVR.

[Sarge47]

JUSTICE

Definition: Justice is defined as the practice of being fair and consistent. A just person gives consideration to each side of a situation and bases rewards or punishments on merit.

Suggestions for Improvement: Be honest with yourself about why you make a particular decision. Avoid favoritism. Try to be fair at all times and treat all things and people in an equal manner.


JUDGMENT

Definition: Judgment is your ability to think about things clearly, calmly, and in an orderly fashion so that you can make good decisions.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can improve your judgment if you avoid making rash decisions. Approach problems with a common sense attitude.


DEPENDABILITY

Definition: Dependability means that you can be relied upon to perform your duties properly. It means that you can be trusted to complete a job. It is the willing and voluntary support of the policies and orders of the chain of command. Dependability also means consistently putting forth your best effort in an attempt to achieve the highest standards of performance.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can increase your dependability by forming the habit of being where you're supposed to be on time, by not making excuses and by carrying out every task to the best of your ability regardless of whether you like it or agree with it.


INITIATIVE

Definition: Initiative is taking action even though you haven't been given orders. It means meeting new and unexpected situations with prompt action. It includes using resourcefulness to get something done without the normal material or methods being available to you.

Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your initiative, work on staying mentally and physically alert. Be aware of things that need to be done and then to do them without having to be told.


DECISIVENESS

Definition: Decisiveness means that you are able to make good decisions without delay. Get all the facts and weight them against each other. By acting calmly and quickly, you should arrive at a sound decision. You announce your decisions in a clear, firm, professional manner.

Suggestions for Improvement: Practice being positive in your actions instead of acting half-heartedly or changing your mind on an issue.


TACT

Definition: Tact means that you can deal with people in a manner that will maintain good relations and avoid problems. It means that you are polite, calm, and firm.

Suggestions for Improvement: Begin to develop your tact by trying to be courteous and cheerful at all times. Treat others as you would like to be treated.


INTEGRITY

Definition: Integrity means that you are honest and truthful in what you say or do. You put honesty, sense of duty, and sound moral principles above all else.

Suggestions for Improvement: Be absolutely honest and truthful at all times. Stand up for what you believe to be right.


ENTHUSIASM

Definition: Enthusiasm is defined as a sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of your duties. If you are enthusiastic, you are optimistic, cheerful, and willing to accept the challenges.

Suggestions for Improvement: Understanding and belief in your mission will add to your enthusiasm for your job. Try to understand why even uninteresting jobs must be done.


BEARING

Definition: Bearing is the way you conduct and carry yourself. Your manner should reflect alertness, competence, confidence, and control.

Suggestions for Improvement: To develop bearing, you should hold yourself to the highest standards of personal conduct. Never be content with meeting only the minimum requirements.


UNSELFISHNESS

Definition: Unselfishness means that you avoid making yourself comfortable at the expense of others. Be considerate of others. Give credit to those who deserve it.

Suggestions for Improvement: Avoid using your position or rank for personal gain, safety, or pleasure at the expensive of others. Be considerate of others.


COURAGE

Definition: Courage is what allows you to remain calm while recognizing fear. Moral courage means having the inner strength to stand up for what is right and to accept blame when something is your fault. Physical courage means that you can continue to function effectively when there is physical danger present.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can begin to control fear by practicing self-discipline and calmness. If you fear doing certain things required in your daily life, force yourself to do them until you can control your reaction.


KNOWLEDGE

Definition: Knowledge is the understanding of a science or art. Knowledge means that you have acquired information and that you understand people. Your knowledge should be broad, and in addition to knowing your job, you should know your unit's policies and keep up with current events.

Suggestions for Improvement: Suggestions for Improvement: Increase your knowledge by remaining alert. Listen, observe, and find out about things you don't understand. Study field manuals and other military literature.


LOYALTY

Definition: Loyalty means that you are devoted to your country, the Corps, and to your seniors, peers, and subordinates. The motto of our Corps is Semper Fidelis!, (Always Faithful). You owe unwavering loyalty up and down the chain of command, to seniors, subordinates, and peers.

Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your loyalty you should show your loyalty by never discussing the problems of the Marine Corps or your unit with outsiders. Never talk about seniors unfavorably in front of your subordinates. Once a decision is made and the order is given to execute it, carry out that order willingly as if it were your own.


ENDURANCE

Definition: Endurance is the mental and physical stamina that is measured by your ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress, and hardship. For example, enduring pain during a conditioning march in order to improve stamina is crucial in the development of leadership.

Suggestions for Improvement: Develop your endurance by engaging in physical training that will strengthen your body. Finish every task to the best of your ability by forcing yourself to continue when you are physically tired and your mind is sluggish.


This about does it.

I look for me, but better and wiser. Does not have to be older as there are many younger men / woman that are worth their salt.

Since this is not a military style team, ultimately the leader will be chosen. One who tries to take control without agreement, falls short.

Understand, the leader does not need to be an expert in everything. They need to be able to take the information given and make a decission. They must also have the loyalty from those they lead, to the point where if they have to make a difficult decission, against the ideals of sum, they can do it and those will follow.

WOW! You are right, self-declared leaders usually have an over-inflated opinion about themselves and their abilities. The thing is, however, if it's an ideal situation you could probably leave and "no harm, no foul". However what if it was a group on a life raft in the middle of the ocean? You gonna go for a solo swim if you don't like the way things are going? What about in the middle of winter in a blizzard? Cuddling will not be a joke then, and it would probably be a "group cuddle"; I hope no ones "homophobic"! What if some of the group are severely injured? Think outside of your comfort zone. This is part of what Vol West was talking about. There are no easy answers in a survival situation. It can be highly uncomfortable, awful embarrassing, and downright deadly!

[FVR]

Sarge,

Ya ever heard of "shark bait?" LOL. One little push off the raft.........oooops.

Honestly, gonna have to play it by ear, see where I end up in the universe. Hopefully wherever it will be, you'll be there to cook. How's your shoe leather casserole?

I can tell you one thing, you won't find me out on the ocean. I grew up swimming across the Delaware in NJ, use to love to swim.

Then I joined the USMC, don't like to swim much now. I may have mentioned this before, but night ops in the Pacific, miles offshore wearing a diving vest and fins, oh and the Kabar. Scary **** gets old real fast.

No water.

[trax]

[QUOTE=volwest;4204]Ok "lashing out" was wrong...lol, but i was thinking about our canadians here...not really you./QUOTE]

I get a lot of answers from the things you post volwest, I really do. I thought that for some reason, you not knowing me except for in here, I would tell you a bit about my hunting experience, so there's a reason why I said I would hunt for the group. You called that lashing out. I'm only guessing that I'm the "canadian' here that you're referring to, like being in LA gives you some kind of intellectual or moral superiority? I doubt that.

You referred to the respondents to this thread as "dense mother####ers" and "monkeys" is that not lashing out? Those appear to be pretty direct insults to me.

I've said in previous threads and will say again, that all of the joking aside, I will base my answers as realistically as possible. Someone asked what tasks we would take on, and I offered my answers.

Sir, you seem to grow mightily offended by anyone who doesn't see things from your obviously superior (why yes! that is sarcasm!) point of view.

We don't know each other, but from almost everything that I've seen you post here, all I can say is...I can read the same books. Just to set my poor befuddled inferior Canadian mind at ease, why don't you tell us all one thing you've actually done that qualifies you to sound off the way you do?

[ryaninmichigan]

[QUOTE=trax;4252]

Ok "lashing out" was wrong...lol, but i was thinking about our canadians here...not really you./QUOTE]

I get a lot of answers from the things you post volwest, I really do. I thought that for some reason, you not knowing me except for in here, I would tell you a bit about my hunting experience, so there's a reason why I said I would hunt for the group. You called that lashing out. I'm only guessing that I'm the "canadian' here that you're referring to, like being in LA gives you some kind of intellectual or moral superiority? I doubt that.

You referred to the respondents to this thread as "dense mother####ers" and "monkeys" is that not lashing out? Those appear to be pretty direct insults to me.

I've said in previous threads and will say again, that all of the joking aside, I will base my answers as realistically as possible. Someone asked what tasks we would take on, and I offered my answers.

Sir, you seem to grow mightily offended by anyone who doesn't see things from your obviously superior (why yes! that is sarcasm!) point of view.

We don't know each other, but from almost everything that I've seen you post here, all I can say is...I can read the same books. Just to set my poor befuddled inferior Canadian mind at ease, why don't you tell us all one thing you've actually done that qualifies you to sound off the way you do?

I want to be the hunter.. Trax you cook and clean. J/k. Maybe we can both hunt you go east I 'll go west meet you back at camp at dark. Everyone else be cool keep the fire going and have Vol read to you.... We will be back with surf and turf

[trax]

Volwest, I'm simply asking about the assumptions you seem to make about people, perhaps it's just the way you communicate your thoughts, but nevertheless....you've again assumed you're pissing me off....nothing you can do or say would ever be important enough to me to get me angry.

You rattled on at length about the great warrior/loner you would be, which I personally have doubts about, but so what? It's just a discussion. I'm in favor of a polite discussion and what I've tried to assert, by responding to the original question, is that groups of people in that situation will put aside petty differences for the common good and thrive, or collapse because of their petty differences (your assertion? yes? no?) I think Ryan's comment about the two of us hunting in different directions adds a little to what I'm trying to get at.

Most groups of people have approached these situations in a variety of ways over years, organizing tasks according to who has the best skill set per task and then dividing that task amongst those individuals is not uncommon.

Ryan, I like your idea.

[trax]

I was born.

You understand ?
The distance you put between you and me, is only in your head.

Now, can we move on, or am i still pissing you off ?

another unanswered question too, but beyond that. When you insult people volwest, they're going to take it personally, unless they don't have a personality to begin with I suppose. You don't know me well enough for any of your insults to matter, but the distance between you and me is how we're willing to treat people in here. I'm not going to refer to anyone as a monkey or a dense mother####er

[Sarge47]

As to your unanswered question, i'll say it again, it depends on the group. Like FVR said, if ryaninmichigan came along with his family, i too would pack my bags.
If you came along and i had to pussyfoot around you like a little girl because you are sensitive, i would pack my bags also.
Just based on this site so far, FVR, Wareagle and Sarge, Donny h, spiritman and nell, would be my choice for a group, where i will do what is asked of me in the intention to preserve that group. I'll die for them. Isn't that the true question...?

Are you whiling to die for the group ? Physically and figuratively ?

Okay, I've deleted the "Zen"story to get to the "Nuts & bolts" here, no puns intended. VW, you hit the nail on the head and I'm highly honored that you would include me in your "group choice." However, as you've also wisely posted in another thread, the things we prepare for are highly unlikely to be the things that we face. What if it were Trax, Ryaninmichigan, his family, etc., and they've no place to go? What if "packing your bags is not an option? Another old saying is "You can pick your friends, but your stuck with your family." Solo Survival is a piece of cake, IMO, compared to Group Survival. Go back to my unanswered question before; the guy with the $1000 knife's "pride of ownership" might be a problem. Independent thinking , while okay on a solo survival scenario, is not going to work in a group scene. What about the dangers of someone carrying a poison dart around? Duties can be assigned based on experience, after all, it gives the folks in the group something to do to take their mind off of their predicament. A leader has to have everybody's faith, trust, confidence, whatever you want to call it, that they can get the group home okay. Dying to self might be a Christian concept, but it is also a pyscological one.

[trax]

Is there anything you can actually point to that you've done to back up your bs? If you give me an example, I'll accept it at face value and stop flattering yourself, you don't have the capability to piss me off, this is just idle chatter to me. You also don't seem to have the capability to give a straight answer.

Zen story anyone?

Two monks come to a river that they have to cross. There's a woman, the old monk picks her up and starts to carrry her over, the river carries away all three of them and drowns them. So what?

There are people in my life that I am willing to die for, this life right here right now, nothing figurative about it.

Oh yeah....and all the crap you've been spouting is available in books. I've read some of the stuff you've paraphrased in other postings.

[wareagle69]

okay kids maybe i'm alittle late to the chit chat, and while i do not mind a good discussion(me and owl girl and the moose) i think this has gooten off the grid here. we are tring to learn and share, if i was walking thru the woods and heard this exchange coming from the fire i would just keep going on my meery way. as sarge eluded to earlier about being a loner, so am i, most ppl i do not give the time of day to. i have never been on any type of forum up until now, and i go thru my day now wondering what my wolfpack is up to.(sarge,trax owlgirl,volwest) the rest of you i am getting to know slowly ya'll just need to post more.

[Fog_Harbor]

Got so wrapped up in the pissing contest, I forgot what the post was about...

[Sarge47]

The problem with a head-butting contest is that the biggest butt-head usually wins. However, all that to the side, maybe Wareagle can answer some of the questions I've raised since I've received very little response to them. Hmmm, maybe I should take a page out of Vol West's book as he seems to draw more response.... BTW, if we're having a urinating contest please fill re-sealable bottles so we can try to sell them to Bear Grylls...I hear he loves the stuff!

[wareagle69]

original post was about bugging out (b/o) and the diffuculties of day to day survival the link was pretty much an eye opener for me, i have always said thet ppl find the idea of living off the land a romantic notion where in reality it is to me one of the most diffucult undertakings,now i do not posses the verbal prose that some authors do so i suggest linking on to it. dohny h was able to load it see see his post on the third page.


ps sorry sarge to label you as the loner i meant fvr

[Sarge47]

original post was about bugging out (b/o) and the diffuculties of day to day survival the link was pretty much an eye opener for me, i have always said thet ppl find the idea of living off the land a romantic notion where in reality it is to me one of the most diffucult undertakings,now i do not posses the verbal prose that some authors do so i suggest linking on to it. dohny h was able to load it see see his post on the third page.


ps sorry sarge to label you as the loner i meant fvr

And sometimes I am! I totally agree with what you said about living off of the land! it's not going to be as cool as les & Bear make it look while we relax in our air-conditioned living rooms drinking our beverage of choice from well-stocked pantries. The reality for me is that I probably won't be involved in the extreme end of survival, but more along the lines of a "natural disaster" scenario, but who knows.