Unreasonable camping rules in state/nat'l parks

[bulrush]

Have you seen any rules you think are unreasonable camping rules?

In Michigan you can't have an open fire unless it's in a park-made and park-approved fire pit. Even though you are surrounded by wet sand and nothing around you is flammable. The rangers generally will not tell you what an "open fire" is until they write you a ticket. Like, is my alcohol stove an "open fire"? Is my wood stove (tiny tin can) an "open fire"?

Are these rules preventing you from camping in these parks, so you just go into the wilderness instead?

Please list the state this is in and park name if you want.

[Rick]

I don't know if I find that is unreasonable or not. Some state/federal parks aren't staffed very well so they can't keep an eye on everything or everyone. Someone is bound to start a fire with a pile of leaves and a 3 foot pile of wood in August after no rain. Some people are just dumb. Other areas are just too difficult to get to. I know there is no open fires allowed at Isle Royal but it's an island so you'd be hard pressed to get equipment out there to fight the fire.

Many times those rules are initiated after some one did something really dumb. So the rest of us have to suffer. I do think, however, they should spell out what an open fire is, in your example, so you clearly know what the rules are.

[Ole WV Coot]

I get a kick out of the long list of "Thou Shalt Not" and at the bottom of the big sign it always says enjoy, have a good time etc.

[dragonjimm]

it was my understanding that a stove did not constitute an open fire

[BIG TONE]

as a backwoodsman and hiker them rules seem unfair.But as a wildland firefighter i see it in a completely different light.

[crashdive123]

I've camped in state parks in most states (not Alaska yet). As I recall, I think that all (or maybe I assumed all) had a restriction about open fires being only in established fire rings. When hiking and camping on state or federal land, most had open fire restrictions once you got above the alpine line. While a nice warm fire would have been really nice when settling in at the edge of a glacier fed lake at about 9,000 feet --- getting fire fighting gear in there would not be an easy undertaking.

[bulrush]

Yes, I can see how the rules prevent the average Bumbling Joe from starting the whole state on fire. I, however, am a lot more careful.

Did I mention the story how last year, I was camping with the Boy Scouts, and the troop next to us (we didn't know them) set up their fire ahead of time then left? About an hour later the whole mess (in the fire ring) burst into flames. A few of us went over and put it out, then told the other scout master right away when he got back.

The other scout master was really irresponsible for letting his boys do that in the first place. Did I mention there were lots of pine trees directly above the fire pit? Luckily, none caught fire.

[crashdive123]

Don't think I would have been as polite to the other scout master.

[Rick]

This fire rule is from the North Cascades National Park:

Campers can use pressurized-gas and liquid-fuel camp stoves and lanterns in designated campgrounds and picnic areas, and in wilderness areas. Wood or charcoal briquette fires are not allowed in any kind of fire pan or barbeque device.

There is currently a ban on open fires that allows campfires in designated campgrounds. This new order bans campfires in campgrounds. This ban does not include Bulrush, who is a lot more careful.

[dragonjimm]

unfortunately the title scoutmaster does not imbue wisdom or knowledge........

[Arkansas_Ranger]

I don't know if I find that is unreasonable or not. Some state/federal parks aren't staffed very well so they can't keep an eye on everything or everyone. Someone is bound to start a fire with a pile of leaves and a 3 foot pile of wood in August after no rain. Some people are just dumb. Other areas are just too difficult to get to. I know there is no open fires allowed at Isle Royal but it's an island so you'd be hard pressed to get equipment out there to fight the fire.

Many times those rules are initiated after some one did something really dumb. So the rest of us have to suffer. I do think, however, they should spell out what an open fire is, in your example, so you clearly know what the rules are.

I agree. I'll throw two elements in here. It usually seems like the actions of one idiot effects everyone thus no open fires in Michigan State Parks.

Second, as Rick said, many state parks aren't well staffed. In Arkansas, we have about 25 Rangers (like me) with full, state-wide law enforcement authority over pretty much everything enforceable. They're the ones actually out patrolling, yet they get a lot of administrative responsibilities to tend to as well. For example, they might supervise the gift shop staff, their budget, and their inventory; the maintenance crew, marina staff, golf coruse or more. Rangers are usually employee safety officers and trainers, medical responders, firemen, alarm and lock/key gurus, errand boys, budget makers and justifiers, in-house auditors and investigators, asset managers, and many other things. I do all that and more. The park superintendents are required to attend the police academy also, however, they are park managers, and their day usually doesn't afford them the opportunity to meet many visitors and perform law enforcement although some do. This brings a total to around 90 commissioned officers, however, the vast majority simply don't have time to patrol around. Just FYI, the people we have who wear a similar uniform as Rangers and give tours are called "park interpreters." They educate the public about the park's resources. Generally, when the public finds out they're called interpreters they're asked "what other language do you speak?"

Additionally, parks are public land, and the idea is to provide everyone with the opportunity to enjoy them in a pristine environment. Granted, it may be unfair for you to light a fire, but, as bold as this may be, it's even more unfair for your actions to ruin the awe of a state park for everyone else.

[Alpine_Sapper]

The rangers generally will not tell you what an "open fire" is until they write you a ticket. Like, is my alcohol stove an "open fire"? Is my wood stove (tiny tin can) an "open fire"?

Then you aren't being persistent enough. If one ranger won't tell you, ask for his supervisor. Keep going until someone says "No, you persistent bastard, an open flame does NOT include your alcohol stove. Now go away." Make sure to write down his name. Hell, use a digital voice recorder for the conversation. That will help if one trys to give you a ticket. "Say, your bosses boss, Ranger Bobby, said I could do this. Here, listen...*click*". You may come off looking like an *** hole, but it's better than a ticket, right?

[RBB]

I'd imagine we have those kind of rules in Nat'l and state parks. Mostly I camp in nat'l and state forests - which have some campgrounds, but you are not required to camp there, and can build a fire wherever you like - unless there is a fire ban due to drought. Then you can't build a fire anywhere.

It has been kind of a problem (the camping) as we have some hobos who camp on one site in the BWCA all summer (law says you are supposed to move every two weeks) - then move out and camp in a Nat'l forest all winter and collect food stamps and public assistance. They leave a huge mess.

The other problem is people who camp and cook up meth. They leave hazardous waste, and are likely as not to shoot at you if you come up on them unaware. Probably the biggest reason I carry in the woods.

[bulrush]

Thanks guys. Michigan state park rules are notoriously vague, and the rangers are frequently "under trained". They don't hand out rules on paper, because they can't afford it, and the 4 foot square signs cannot fit a lot of 6 inch high text on them. Getting contact with a ranger's supervisor used to be tricky before cell phones, but should be easier now. But I myself don't have a cell phone and parks typically do not have a phone you can use. Yes, the check in booth *might* have a phone but they won't let you use it unless it's an emergency.

If your campsite has a brown post with a number in it, that is the "luxury suite".

[Arkansas_Ranger]

Thanks guys. Michigan state park rules are notoriously vague, and the rangers are frequently "under trained". They don't hand out rules on paper, because they can't afford it, and the 4 foot square signs cannot fit a lot of 6 inch high text on them. Getting contact with a ranger's supervisor used to be tricky before cell phones, but should be easier now. But I myself don't have a cell phone and parks typically do not have a phone you can use. Yes, the check in booth *might* have a phone but they won't let you use it unless it's an emergency.

If your campsite has a brown post with a number in it, that is the "luxury suite".

It's possible that they are under trained as with any other agency. Contact their department head (director) about the need for more training.

[Beo]

Take a picture of your stove, cell phone or other pic and show them before setting it up, personally I think its stupid, I have and always will dig my fire pit out and line it with rocks, fook'em. But never forget they don't know everyone who's a responsible person and who's a Johnny Butterbutt, soooo they do their best. It the azz hats that make us have to suffer.

[Fargus]

One rule here that always irks me is that once you've paid admission (I have a National Park Pass, great investment), you have to go and get an additional permit to access primitive campsites. In some parks here you have to get a 'back country' permit as well, whether you are camping or just hiking. I understand the reasoning, just a pain to go through the process, again, and again, and again.

In some parks, I actually wish there were more rules applying to RV campers. I hate to paint with a broad brush, but RV people can be some of the most inconsiderate 'campers' in the world.

[bulrush]

For the "primitive camping" or "back country camping" (which we also have here in MI) a permit is necessary in case the police are looking for a criminal in your area, there is a national or local emergency or weather-related condition. They just want to know where to find out just in case. Also, if they find some stranger camping in the woods they want to confirm you are not making meth or doing something else illegal.

A pain, I know, but the butt-heads make it hard for the rest of us.

[crashdive123]

I really liked the way the hiking areas in Washington State were managed. Each trail head had a sign in sheet - name, area hiking to, time in, planned departure. Pretty simple.

[trax]

I had to sign in where I was going and when I planned on coming back on the canoe trip that me and the dog did, but they never charged me camping fees for the back country area. They charged me for a park pass and the first night when I slept in the park before embarking.

I think a lot of it is exactly what's been said here. The more experienced campers, hikers, etc have to tolerate extra regulations because of the foolishness of others, so oh well. As far as I'm concerned, I should be able to go into a park like that and launch my canoe on any damn lake system I want and just go, but the kid behind the desk at the ranger station doesn't know if I have 40 years of experience or 40 seconds, so he has to apply the rules. Same goes for campfires, I was lucky that they had iron firepits where I was going because open fires were prohibited. I'd thought about taking a stove and left it behind because of all the gear I was already portaging. (Would I have broken that rule? Well, if it was that or not be able to cook my food and brew my coffee, hell yes I would have)