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Thread: Looking at air guns

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Nice. But I sure wouldn't want to bring home a 1000 dollar airgun. My wife knows everything.
    My wife would probably like an air rifle because she hates my AR-15s. Not sure if she knows that I have 3 of them. She has formed her opinions from listening to the news media. I told her there are countless rifles that do the same exact thing an AR-15 does some made in WWII


  2. #22
    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim Glass View Post
    Andre: Your Mate is quite knowledgeable on air guns. I have heard before to keep the pellet speed around 950 fpm. Speeds over
    1000 fpm approach the speed of sound and this creates turbulence for the pellet while in flight. He also mentioned one air gun is not typically enough. Must me like AR-15s. I have 3 of them now.

    Stated a project yesterday. I saw on Youtube where a guy made an electric pump for his PCP air gun using an old compressor from a refrigerator. Yesterday I bought 2 compressors at a scrap yard, got one of them working. More later
    Yes Andre' Is very Knowledgeable on them and owns several air rifles and several other normal Fire-arms, hence I spoke with him to get an understanding of what I can look at to suit what I want to do.

    I have seen on the net that with PCP you can get a stirrup pump and pump them manually like you would a bicycle.. I would not know how well that works...
    most are opting for the Dive tank cylinders
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    While there is very little chance of an air gun pushing a 14 grain pellet over the speed of sound it should at least come within a couple of hundred FPS of doing so.

    And if that accuracy issue does not straighten out I would be on the phone to customer service real soon. You need to get that rifle sandbagged down on a table and really check its accuracy.

    Looking at the media sources it appears that there are different diameter reservoirs available and if yours puts pressure on the barrel I would go back to where I obtained it and see about a trade back.

    And all of us that are used to shooting "normal" powder burning firearms, please remember that we are talking about 14-15 grain pellets traveling at the 600-800 fps level.

    A CCI cb cap pushes a 29 grain bullet at 700 fps, twice the energy of the air rifle in question, and is not normally considered anything but a mouse and rat cartridge. It also works at about the same noise level.
    yeah there is this issue, and I am speaking to some people here about sorting this out, I dont know if the older co2 canisters are available, however this rifle is a pretty sought after one for its ease of modifications and how well they can shoot once all sorted..
    I think I try get that sorted here rather than taking it back...
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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    How odd!

    For $280 I can buy a build kit for an AR and for $350 to $500 I can have 1500-2000 rounds of ammo!

    You can buy a 1200 fps capable air rifle at Walmart for $75-$100 any old day you want to walk in there. Almost all the good springers now launch the ultralight pellets at that velocity.

    But as we already said, that speed of sound transition for the pellets makes them unstable, and the pellets of usable weight will not reach that 1100 fps threshold anyway.

    I have really found little use for the one I have and do not need to get started on another branch of the hobby. I have been fighting the urge to build an AK for 5 years and barely have held out even though it would require me to buy $2000 of tooling to build a $500 rifle!
    Yeah when people are saying 1200 fps that doesn't mean much, usually its with very light pellets...
    As far as I am aware anything above 900 fps is not going to shoot great...
    they always claiming an insane FPS, but what they not telling you is that is with like a 5 grain pellet.
    foot pounds would be a better description of power.
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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Anyway I go in to this Shop that has sorted many many issues with the exact issue I am having with my exact rifle and Get them to sort out what they can, and help me choose a good scope, tune in the rifle and get as much out of it as they can to shoot very accurately with enough power..
    once This is all done hopefully I can return With some Decent Feed back on WHAT exact fps I am getting on what grain pellets and Show the accuracy Once all the minor issues are sorted.

    As for An actual fire arm, we require licences for those, I don't particularly want to own A proper fire Arm(besides the fact they REALLY EXPENSIVE HERE compared to an air rifle, and the licencing is a huge annoyance to get...not worth what I want to use it for), I enjoy plinking targets and some pest control, rats, mice, pigeons, rabbits at the biggest.. which is sufficient for what I would like if I ever had to take it in the bush those are the quick easy meals I would go for, anything bigger is honestly a waste for me.
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  6. #26
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    Now I'm looking at a springer type air rifle. Ruger has a Yukon that claims to have 1400 fps and a
    Ruger air Magnum claims to have 1200 fps. .22 or .177. You just cock these to pump but only one shot per cock. I thought it would be cool to get 40 shots per charge but what is that really worth. If I take it to Florida I don't care to haul pumps and compressors for an air gun. Cabelas near here has the Ruger Magnum in stock!!!!!!

    Correction: The pellet speed varies depending on who is selling the air gun. And the speed varies between .177 and .22 cal, I expect that.

    The Beeman QB79 sells for $109 to $119 claims to have 650 fps
    Last edited by jim Glass; 04-28-2018 at 05:33 AM.

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    Calm down Jim, think about this for a minute. Speed of the pellet is not everything. Speed past 1100fps causes unstable pellets that are not accurate.

    If going past the speed of sound makes the pellets unstable why do you want 1400fps? And those speed measurements are taken using super lightweight pellets that are useless for anything but getting speed.

    It seems the ultimate choice would be a rifle that holds things at just under 1100fps. Best accuracy for the most controllable power.

    And if that Air Magnum will push a .177 pellet to 1200fps it is not going to push the .22 pellet to the same speed. That .22 pellet weighs almost twice what a .177 pellet weighs. It is a Chinese pellet rifle advertising impossibility.

    So you want the heaviest pellet you can get that will go just below 1100fps, which means a .22 at 800-900fps is going to give the most accuracy and power combined.

    There is a lot of exaggeration of speed numbers that goes on in the pellet rifle world. They know that most people do not own a chronograph and will never get an accurate true measurement of their gun's performance so they can puke up any numbers they think will sell guns.

    BTW, all of these rifles are made either in China or in Turkey. They are imported by Beman, Crossman, RWS or Ruger and relabeled. If you look around, or even google the model numbers, you can find out what the Chinese, Spanish or Turkish name of most rifles is and buy them for way less than the American name brand price.

    Gamo is a Spanish company and owns BSA, producing guns for other manufacturers on spec. Hatsan is a Turkish firm that produces for many of the "name brand" firms in Europe as well as having a good reputation on their own. Beman guns are from several firms but only admit to "German" heritage. Ruger air rifles are made by Umerex, a Chinese firm that also produces for RWS. The RWS and Ruger guns are identical.

    If you look at the reviews it is a hoot! The exact same gun with the imported name will get trashed in the reviews but the same gun with a name brand on it will be reviewed like it was a bar of gold.

  8. #28
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    Well, I ordered the Ruger Yukon online from Walmart. Got a heck of a deal, $149.00, .22 cal. Walmart would not ship the air rifle to me or a store in Illinois all because of that stupid gun card we have to have. FREE shipping to. I didn't know Illinois was that strict on air guns. So, I had the air gun shipped to Lake Geneva Wisconsin, a nice 50 mile drive from here. Wish it was summer, I'd cruise all the beaches along the way.

    Another example of how gun control doesn't work

  9. #29
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    Dont get me wrong you can get decent springers that will shoot .177 and others .22 at a decent FPS on a decent grain pellet...
    But dont be fooled by an odd claim of 1000fps.. That claim is very misleading and is often rated for .177 very light grain pellets.
    I think A decent Springer that people have been recommending is an HW80 in .22 ( and likely wont get those insane claims, but its is a very very good rifle)

    FPS is not everything, its misleading.

    You might also Want to look at some gas ram rifles,
    Check reviews, ask people that own them, shoot as many as you can, test them etc.
    Last edited by Antonyraison; 04-12-2018 at 03:04 AM.
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  10. #30
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    Yes, Cabelas rates the Ruger Yukon at 1200 fps. The specs at Walmart rate it at 1050 fps. Watching YouTube videos last night and a guy claimed these are all false claims, these pellet rifles only put out 650 to 750 fps. The pellet rifle I have now I bought used in
    1974 so I will be nice have a new one. I'll have fun with it. My wife says I'm just a big kid anyway.

  11. #31
    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    Like I said, and like Anthony said, and anyone else for that matter, the speed you get is going to be determined by the weight of the pellet and the amount of bearing surface the pellet puts against the rifling, since the spring is putting out the same consistent puff of air with each shot.

    That is why most serious target guns are either springers or gas piston. the target rifles hold their velocities down around 500-550 to get consistency and stability out of the pellet. All they have to do is punch a hole in a piece of paper.

    The current crop of target air rifles of Olympic quality are some of the most accurate guns ever built by man. They are capable of constant one hole accuracy at 10 meters. Yep, 10 meters, 33 feet, is the air rifle standard. Officially 9 feet for B-B guns.

    .22 pellets come in a variety of weights and shapes and just like with .22 bullets you have to find what your rifle likes. Lightweight .22 pellets start at 11 grains, mediums like the Crossman and Beeman brands at Walmart often weigh 15 grains and some heavy specialty pellets will top 20 grains. My rifle pushes the 15 grains pellets at around 800fps.

    About 5 years back I invested $100 in a chronograph and it has been some of the best money I ever spent. It is especially nice to set up in the back yard and test BB gun, pellet gun and .22 rimfire velocities, I have even tested the velocity of different arrow weights. The way I taught myself to run the machine was shooting a couple of hundred pellets across the light traps in the back yard. I had pellet weights/velocities out the wazoo.

    I have set it up at the range to test reloads I am working up. I have a difficult time when I do that though. Everyone at the range wants to see what their latest whizzbang round is doing and I wind up being the physics professor for the rest of the day.

    That $100 investment has answered a lot of nagging questions I had for years.

    Anyway, I know what my specific rifles will do but that is just my rifles, with the springs they have, the piston weight they have and the lubrication I use.

    Did you know a Red Ryder BB gun puts out 275fps? The old long stroke pump guns, I think they were the model 25 Daisey, were reported to get 350 but I never got to measure one.

    You can also get a .177 pellet up to nearly 500fps out of the little $25 pump up Crossman 760. BBs go a little faster and average 550fps.

    What is a practical test without a chronograph?

    I ascribe to the test established by Turner Kirkland, who was owner of Dixie Gun Works back in the day. Turner always claimed that if a piece of small shot, like a B-B or pellet, would penetrate both sides of a soup can it would kill a bird. We are talking about a 1955 era soup can not a 2018 soup can or aluminum pop can. Get a can that held tomato sauce or some acidic food, they are about 1955 tough. A paint can would work too.

    If a small shot would penetrate both sides of a 5 gallon metal bucket, the ones like driveway sealer or asphalt come in, it was stout enough for small game like squirrels and rabbits. Over the years I realized that one side penetration was good enough.

    Back when I was a kid I also used a "Coke bottle test". Coke bottles (not off band bottles) were heavy green glass about 3/16" thick and tempered for strength. Most BB guns just sent their fodder bouncing off into the wild (you're gonna put your eye out!). If your BB gun would shatter a coke bottle it was a strong shooter. Not many would.

    Now over in Great Britain they are not allowed to sell anything that produces over 12 foot pounds of energy, and they measure each and ever air rifle offered for sale in the UK! If they use those light weight pellets to measure velocity/energy at the false level claimed by the factories here in America they would have very little to sell!

    The makers therefore limit their rifles to the lower velocities required to meet the standards by selling only average to heavy pellets and reducing the power of the springs in the rifles.

    That UK standard of 12 foot pounds is a 15 grain .22 pellet at 600fps. Or a 9 grain .177 pellet at 750fps.

    Just about every springer or PCP gun in America will exceed that level, so we start out at what they consider too dangerous for the common man to own.

    By limiting the energy and not the velocity they put every caliber on the same playing field but the flat trajectory and penetration of the .177 in that situation give it the edge when hunting. Over here we can push the . 22 up to the 900-1000fps level and always gain energy over the .177 at the same velocity.
    Last edited by kyratshooter; 04-12-2018 at 12:43 PM.

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    We would use those same Coke bottles to launch bottle caps out into the lake. You could insert up to three firecrackers in a Coke bottle then clamp the cap down over them and light the fuse. The bottle would be fine. Four firecrackers would send glass flying everywhere but three would launch that bottle cap into orbit. So I absolutely believe it when you say not many BB guns would shatter a Coke bottle. That was some tough glass! I would not dare do that with a glass bottle today.

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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Alrighty,
    I have an update..
    So With my qb79.. its no big train smash..
    I got a better brand of pellets: premiere ultra Magnum 14.3 grand, and a cheap asg 4X40 Scope
    I zeroed in the Scope and shot from 10meters,15m, 20meters, and 30meters.
    here are some of the groupings at around 15-20meters:
    4a9614c8-0a1f-4e8d-bc14-fe21f4452da4.jpg
    89c4816a-cca2-49a0-955f-ad0f0af49eae.jpg

    And here is the rifle Now:
    04dc9b42-923b-441e-ad4f-6c485fc593a9.jpg

    So its seems fairly decent upto even 30meters so I am happy,
    re the Canister issue, I spoke to one of the gunsmiths they recommend, and All he does is change the canister, his manages to sort these out with a soda stream bottle, gives the same psi etc, so I may get him to do that if I have issue with inaccuracy.
    also he can open up gun do a few small tweaks and get an extra 100fps out of it. Also The rifle itself is capable of being fully converted to PCP if I want

    I am fairly happy though to get around 500-600fsp out of it on these pellets and seems amply powered for what I want, so I play around and if I want to sort these small issues out they really not a big issue.
    Last edited by Antonyraison; 04-13-2018 at 02:35 AM.
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  14. #34
    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    Like I said, and like Anthony said, and anyone else for that matter, the speed you get is going to be determined by the weight of the pellet and the amount of bearing surface the pellet puts against the rifling, since the spring is putting out the same consistent puff of air with each shot.

    That is why most serious target guns are either springers or gas piston. the target rifles hold their velocities down around 500-550 to get consistency and stability out of the pellet. All they have to do is punch a hole in a piece of paper.

    The current crop of target air rifles of Olympic quality are some of the most accurate guns ever built by man. They are capable of constant one hole accuracy at 10 meters. Yep, 10 meters, 33 feet, is the air rifle standard. Officially 9 feet for B-B guns.

    .22 pellets come in a variety of weights and shapes and just like with .22 bullets you have to find what your rifle likes. Lightweight .22 pellets start at 11 grains, mediums like the Crossman and Beeman brands at Walmart often weigh 15 grains and some heavy specialty pellets will top 20 grains. My rifle pushes the 15 grains pellets at around 800fps.

    About 5 years back I invested $100 in a chronograph and it has been some of the best money I ever spent. It is especially nice to set up in the back yard and test BB gun, pellet gun and .22 rimfire velocities, I have even tested the velocity of different arrow weights. The way I taught myself to run the machine was shooting a couple of hundred pellets across the light traps in the back yard. I had pellet weights/velocities out the wazoo.

    I have set it up at the range to test reloads I am working up. I have a difficult time when I do that though. Everyone at the range wants to see what their latest whizzbang round is doing and I wind up being the physics professor for the rest of the day.

    That $100 investment has answered a lot of nagging questions I had for years.

    Anyway, I know what my specific rifles will do but that is just my rifles, with the springs they have, the piston weight they have and the lubrication I use.

    Did you know a Red Ryder BB gun puts out 275fps? The old long stroke pump guns, I think they were the model 25 Daisey, were reported to get 350 but I never got to measure one.

    You can also get a .177 pellet up to nearly 500fps out of the little $25 pump up Crossman 760. BBs go a little faster and average 550fps.

    What is a practical test without a chronograph?

    I ascribe to the test established by Turner Kirkland, who was owner of Dixie Gun Works back in the day. Turner always claimed that if a piece of small shot, like a B-B or pellet, would penetrate both sides of a soup can it would kill a bird. We are talking about a 1955 era soup can not a 2018 soup can or aluminum pop can. Get a can that held tomato sauce or some acidic food, they are about 1955 tough. A paint can would work too.

    If a small shot would penetrate both sides of a 5 gallon metal bucket, the ones like driveway sealer or asphalt come in, it was stout enough for small game like squirrels and rabbits. Over the years I realized that one side penetration was good enough.

    Back when I was a kid I also used a "Coke bottle test". Coke bottles (not off band bottles) were heavy green glass about 3/16" thick and tempered for strength. Most BB guns just sent their fodder bouncing off into the wild (you're gonna put your eye out!). If your BB gun would shatter a coke bottle it was a strong shooter. Not many would.

    Now over in Great Britain they are not allowed to sell anything that produces over 12 foot pounds of energy, and they measure each and ever air rifle offered for sale in the UK! If they use those light weight pellets to measure velocity/energy at the false level claimed by the factories here in America they would have very little to sell!

    The makers therefore limit their rifles to the lower velocities required to meet the standards by selling only average to heavy pellets and reducing the power of the springs in the rifles.

    That UK standard of 12 foot pounds is a 15 grain .22 pellet at 600fps. Or a 9 grain .177 pellet at 750fps.

    Just about every springer or PCP gun in America will exceed that level, so we start out at what they consider too dangerous for the common man to own.

    By limiting the energy and not the velocity they put every caliber on the same playing field but the flat trajectory and penetration of the .177 in that situation give it the edge when hunting. Over here we can push the . 22 up to the 900-1000fps level and always gain energy over the .177 at the same velocity.
    With the Can power test,
    the say similar things here, they say take a Tin Bean can (they quite thick tin)
    And well if your rifle's pellet goes through both sides its effective for birds, rabbits and such
    As soon as you go further and further away, and its stops going through both sides you out of its effective range,
    Mine was still doing that From about 25 meters... I haven't bothered to even go further.. So I am happy with where it is, I can mod and customize the rifle, its a very good platform for it.
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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    On the weekend I actually decided to get the rifle 100%
    so I took it to the smith, and he machined the tap to take a soda stream canister (cost me about the equivalent of like 12 USD to fix that issue)
    Then I shot with rifle most of weekend.
    It is perfect now. highly accurate and I am happy.
    So here you go.. all done..
    The smith reckons on the 14.3g pellets on my rifle is around 700fps.
    I will put it into a chronograph soon.
    But roughly giving around 16foot pound force with the current setup.

    5ea00fda-23fb-436a-811e-679a0e716b91.jpg
    Last edited by Antonyraison; 04-16-2018 at 03:45 AM.
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  16. #36
    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Also got to shoot with a nice brake barrel (uses a gas ram system), artemis sr1000s air rifle fairly inexpensive (comes in slightly cheaper than my set up)
    And that is giving roughly same power.
    If you look at the box it will say 900fps.. that is on 4.5mm /.177
    and 750fps on 5.5mm or .22
    I would say more like 700fps.
    My mate is getting his rifle chronographed later.. so I will be able to give you a better idea of the actual power.
    And in Time I will get mine also put through a chronograph.
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  17. #37
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    [QUOTE I play with it quite often [/QUOTE]

    Hmmmmm
    I'm a Gramp who is not computer savvy, give me a slab and the rock ages tablet..I will do fine!

  18. #38
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    Here is an easy and quick calculator from Pyramid Air.

    https://www.pyramydair.com/article/W..._August_2003/5

    Pyramid has a wealth of information on their website.

  19. #39
    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Cool well my friend Air rifle, on the .22 pellets is reporting 720fps...
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  20. #40
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    The Ruger Yukon showed up a day early at Walmart so I drove to Lake Geneva Wisconsin to pick it up. I was rather impressed with the Yukon when I unboxed it. Nicely finished stock the barrel and receiver looks like a serious gun. Most pellet guns I have seen are rather small and light weight like a kids gun. The Yukon is rather heavy and bulky.

    Before firing I ran several cleaning patches down the barrel to remove the packing grease. The final patch was soaked in gun oil.

    I test fired inside my shop (since it is still winter here) at a distance of 33 feet. Using the iron sights and right out of the box it was only an inch off from "0". Must have fired 25, 14 gr, Ruger pellets last night. It is really accurate and penetrated a 3/4" pine board. For a pellet gun it has a nice set of iron sights, adjustable for windage and elevation. It came with a scope but haven't looked at it yet, I like the iron sights.

    When done shooting I ran a couple of cleaning patches down the barrel. Really dirty cleaning patches. This pellet gun is dirtier than a powder burning gun. When finished I discharged the pellet gun. The owner manual recommends the pellet gun not be stored in a loaded state.

    More on the Ruger Yukon later
    Last edited by jim Glass; 04-17-2018 at 05:51 AM.

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