Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 76

Thread: Armed guards in schools - thoughrs.

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Keweenaw Peninsula of upper Michigan, about the middle of the south shore of Lake Superior
    Posts
    468

    Default Armed guards in schools - thoughrs.

    Since the Florida shooting there once again has been calls for armed teachers/guards in schools. As both a certified instructor for concealed carry and a teacher with some police experience, I have some concerns/observations. First of all, a concealed carry permit does not mean that that person (a teacher in this case) is trained well enough to exchange gunfire with an active shooter armed with an AR 15. Most can not afford the money for ammo or the range time. IF you favor armed guards walking the school hallways, most articles I have read say or infer that that guard is armed with a hand gun. BAD IDEA! What I think would be needed , if you are really serious about safety, is the European model of Para-mllitary guards armed at a minimum with long guns, not handguns. I know such a proposal would set off the liberal snowflakes (love that term) into mass hysteria. But we are even having churches having armed guards now. Knowing that the schools and churches have armed guards would not totally prevent active shooters but would certainly deter most.
    Geezer Squad #2


  2. #2
    Administrator Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Indiana
    Posts
    56,573

    Default

    I have no problem with armed guards with hand guns. Any weapon is better than no weapon, which is what they armed with at the moment. When we do away with "NO GUN" zones we give everyone a fighting a chance. Why do you think arming with a hand gun is a bad idea? Being concealed does not broadcast and gives the defender the the advantage of surprise. The reverse is also true. You can arm a guard with a long gun and a conceal carry bad guy walk in a drop them simply because the bad guy knows who they are.

    We need to start by hardening the building and zoning fire alarms. That might have saved kids.

  3. #3

    Default

    I wouldn't want to go up against an AR 15 with a handgun.

    Fence the schools. One entrance. Metal detector. Properly armed and trained guards.

    Good luck getting the money from a tax increase for schools from retired people. They tend to vote against that. And we have a ton of retired folks.

  4. #4

  5. #5

    Default

    Like Madmax said good luck getting the funds for genuine security. Every time we have an incident like this upset people call for further restrictions on firearms and/or more security in schools. But after a couple months emotions die down and people's opinions return to the resting point near where they were before the shooting. Security sounds great- lots of things sound great in the abstract- but when actually called to fund those things people tend to balk. It comes down to the actual risks involved vs the public perceptions, too. I don't have access to the statistics right now but as bad as the shooting was (17 dead IIRC) I wouldn't be surprised if 17 or more kids died in traffic accidents across the US on the same day. Just as it's unreasonable to ban ten millions ARs (IMO) due to a handful being misused it's probably also unreasonable to turn half a million schools into fortresses because of a handful of incidents in a few of them.

    We can have a high degree of freedom to live as we choose or a high degree of freedom from street crime but probably not both. We as a society need to have a sober discussion as to where we want to set our thermostat. If we want to be free to conduct our lives without a lot of intrusion upon it from the State then we'll have to accept that sometimes bad people will do bad things. If we want the government to protect us from every possible harm then we must be willing to accept that a lot of our life choices will no longer be our own.

    I think the US needs to do a lot better job of root cause mitigation. The guy that did this was well known to everyone and had a long history of issues. Yet no one had the resources or ability to do anything until he shot up a school. We need to figure out how to interdict the worst cases before things come down to gunfire.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Goliad, Texas
    Posts
    629

    Default

    As a former Educator/Administrator, I have some opinions on this subject. I know a good many teachers who would perform the task of carrying a handgun concealed throughout the day. Some of them might be able to effectively thwart an attack. I know a LOT of teachers who I would not want to be in the building with them if they had a gun.

    School districts have janitors who perform a needed task. It seems there is another needed task that needs to be addressed. We need armed security guards(specialists) who have one function, Security. They need to be commissioned by the local law enforcement agency. They then will choose from Teacher/Administrator/et volunteers who will likewise be armed. Teachers go to classes to get all kinds of certifications to enhance education. We need to have them becoming certified LEOs as well.

    This last little bugger was not like many previous school shooters. He didn't, nor did he have any intention of offing himself when he was through. He even devised and escape plan, got away, had snack and went about his business. We will see more like him.

    There is no doubt something needs to be done, and more gun laws aren't it. School shooters could care less about laws. Take away their guns and they'll move on to bombs. The only way to stop them is to stop them before they do any damage. Of course calling the FBI may not be a good start, but call local LE and let them know if something untoward is seen, read, heard, or whatever.

    Alan

  7. #7
    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    tip of the mitt
    Posts
    5,097

    Default

    In the school in my town there is a safety officer, he is a deputy from the sheriff office. He is there during school hours and at school functions. He is armed
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

  8. #8
    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    KY bluegrass region-the center of the universe
    Posts
    9,727

    Default

    Every school I taught in, since the mid-1970s, has had an armed deputy on site.

    It is only in the snowflake zones that do not have this provision where the debate is going on.

    They want to "be safe" but they do not have a concept of self defense or understand what makes them safe.

  9. #9

    Default

    Hardening the buildings would go far. When an incident occurs like this, the security gets all tight, then with time it relaxes, doors get left unlocked, windows open, etc. I can't remember the last time I had to be buzzed into a school building to do an installation.

    Possibly having a hardened panic room between each two or 4 classrooms might be a consideration. Or it might be a deathtrap depending on what the terrorist has with him.

    Yes, these pukes should be considered terrorists.

    The snowflakes totally derided the NRA when armed officers were first suggested by them after Sandyhook. Seems quite a number of schools have quietly followed that advice though, calling them "resource officers." We do have them here in the Snowflake zone. They are uniformed and armed.
    If we are to have another contest in…our national existence I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's, but between patriotism & intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition & ignorance on the other…
    ~ President Ulysses S. Grant

  10. #10
    Senior Member Solar Geek's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    In Heaven in Central WI
    Posts
    439

    Default

    I had the yuck job of convincing the Catholic school that my went to that they needed to 'lock down' the 7 open entrances. That's right 7 open entrances all day including coming in from the completely wide open church that was attached. No cameras, no intercoms, just a welcome into the school.

    Well it took 2 years, lots of fund raising, and I lost a bunch of "friends" over it, but it is now in lockdown at all times with bullet proof glass and many many safety drills and precautions. We should all remember Laurie Dann in Illinois, 1986-1988. She was one of if not THE first to shoot up a school. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Dann
    s
    But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24:15

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    Every school I taught in, since the mid-1970s, has had an armed deputy on site.

    It is only in the snowflake zones that do not have this provision where the debate is going on.

    They want to "be safe" but they do not have a concept of self defense or understand what makes them safe.
    That strikes me as very odd. Did you teach in very wealthy areas? I grew up in a red state that's probably almost as hillbilly as KY and I'd never heard of any school having armed security back in those days, even in the "big cities" (meaning 55,000 and 120,000 respectively). Heck, I don't think they even have any now! Of course I went to school in a one-horse town, maybe even a half-a-horse town, so there was certainly no money in the budget for armed guards! On the other hand, I took my hunting rifle to show-and-tell when I was in 8th grade and the teacher had a go at dry firing it himself so guns didn't freak anyone out.

    It was a different time, of course. I had never heard of a school shooting although there probably were some. We were so naive that it never even occurred to us to call people 'snowflakes' for disagreeing with us. It was a different, more civilized age I suppose.
    Last edited by Phaedrus; 02-20-2018 at 02:45 AM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member BENESSE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Gotham
    Posts
    9,484

    Default

    Yes to all measures, including armed guards, metal detector entrances and especially taking reports of suspicious activities more seriously, The FBI dropped the ball on this one big time and they should be ashamed of themselves. What's the point of promoting "when you see something, say something", if it doesn't get the follow through it needs? They gave up too soon. (we know they can pursue leads with no merit when it suits them...but that's a political topic)

    As far as funding security: I am guessing every parent in every school will be happy to pay extra $ toward keeping their kids safer. Just ask the parents who lost children...what they wouldn't have sacrificed to have them back. I know I would. Just because we can't save every life doesn't mean we shouldn't try to save the few we can.

  13. #13
    Administrator Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Indiana
    Posts
    56,573

    Default

    People think this is a brand new phenomenon. It isn't. It is just new to them. School shootings go all the way back to the 1700s when indians massacred a school in Pennsylvania (Enoch School Massacre). They didn't actually shoot them but they wound up dead none-the-less.

    Since then there have been school shootings every decade. Most of you probably don't remember Charles Whitman in the University of Texas Massacre. He took out 17 in 1966 and wounded 31 with a hunting rifle. He proved you don't need high capacity mags or uber ugly AR 15s to take out a lot of people but we forget about things like that.

  14. #14
    Senior Member BENESSE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Gotham
    Posts
    9,484

    Default

    Well, it's not a new phenomenon but it does seem to have picked up with some frequency. We can debate the reasons till the cows come home and won't ever get to the bottom of it as we haven't so far. But that should not be the reason to do nothing, even the smallest measures can make some difference. Any life saved is worth it.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Most of you probably don't remember Charles Whitman in the University of Texas Massacre. He took out 17 in 1966 and wounded 31 with a hunting rifle. He proved you don't need high capacity mags or uber ugly AR 15s to take out a lot of people but we forget about things like that.
    I was only 4 years old when that happened, but it was talked about for a long time because I remember hearing about it when I was little.
    "The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play." Jim Kirk

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Keweenaw Peninsula of upper Michigan, about the middle of the south shore of Lake Superior
    Posts
    468

    Default

    I read on the news that there was an armed security guard on duty in that school in Florida, He was in another part of the building when the shooting started and of course, the shooter fled quickly. What does that tell you about putting ONE armed security guard to cover an entire building? Did any one else read or hear that the shooter tried to shoot through one classroom window and the bullets bounced off? While bullet prof glass is useless if the doors are nor locked, it is a much cheaper security measure that paying armed guards. (Not that I advocate only bullet prof glass)
    Geezer Squad #2

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Keweenaw Peninsula of upper Michigan, about the middle of the south shore of Lake Superior
    Posts
    468

    Default

    I just read an item on FOX News TV, that a high school student has invented a door barring mechanism that prevents anyone from forcing a door, even if they shoot off the lock. He is manufacturing them and selling them to schools. One school district in Florida has purchased 50 at a cost of $95 a piece. Another school district in Wisconsin has also bought 50.
    Geezer Squad #2

  18. #18
    Super Moderator crashdive123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    43,316
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Professor View Post
    I read on the news that there was an armed security guard on duty in that school in Florida, He was in another part of the building when the shooting started and of course, the shooter fled quickly. What does that tell you about putting ONE armed security guard to cover an entire building? Did any one else read or hear that the shooter tried to shoot through one classroom window and the bullets bounced off? While bullet prof glass is useless if the doors are nor locked, it is a much cheaper security measure that paying armed guards. (Not that I advocate only bullet prof glass)
    Armed security only works when access points are controlled. Just like a courthouse, Congress, sporting event.....If there are limited access points, then they are far easier to control and screen.
    Can't Means Won't

    My Youtube Channel

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Goliad, Texas
    Posts
    629

    Default

    Access points are a huge problem. Most schools were built and added on to without consideration of security (why should there be that consideration, it's a school). I spent a lot of time locking doors that were left unlocked by people too lazy to turn a key. Even if you can't get in all you have to do is knock, a student will let you in.

    Anyway, nobody is really much concerned about security until something bad happens. Then it is only used to find someone to blame. Kids already complain that the school is like a prison..... Now they're walking out down in Florida to get tougher gun laws. People who cannot follow rules want more laws.

    Alan
    Last edited by Alan R McDaniel Jr; 02-21-2018 at 04:59 PM.

  20. #20
    Administrator Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Indiana
    Posts
    56,573

    Default

    I love Randy's Signature....


    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

    We'll just keeping banning the next tool de jour until there is nothing left to ban. China is suppose to have 600 million CCTV cameras in place by 2020. That should make for a much safer country. Yeah, that's the ticket.

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170630/07045437703/chinas-surveillance-plans-include-600-million-cctv-cameras-nationwide-pervasive-facial-recognition.shtml

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •