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Thread: Repacing a #4 enfied

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    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    Default Repacing a #4 enfied

    "All I know is a popular riffle here used for Most hunting purposes, is the good old 303... that is what most here swear by. well for mid sized to very large game, I wouldnt use it for rabbits now hahahahah yeah nooo hahah... and this can take a polar bear, a lion, a rhino, a cape buffalo, an elphant (its been known to do that even) Large antelopes, kudu, gemsbok, impala, eland, the works, it nabs it no issues, bolt action, has a magazine also.. reliable as hell.. Its quiet a legendary weapon here, very rare you wont find a hunter or a farmer that doesn't own one, the have mythical properties and large tales always attached to them... like really crazy mad stories , een dag ek het daar tissen die berge geloop en daar veer oor die koopie die mist het net begin om te vertrek, En daan ek het hom gesein die Groooste Bul ek het ooit in my hulle lewe gesien... bla blah blah.. Normal stories... hahah

    And they always told in Afrikaans, always lol..
    well It makes sense when some of the riffles where kept in the family from the anglo boer war era, they just keep handing them down father to son... so they are really highly prized possessions here.." Quote from Anthony..


    I am going to bounce off this post from the other thread and go into a second arctic military group I found during my quick research project. The group is called the Canadian Rangers.

    The Canadian Rangers are a true armed militia, sanctioned and sponsored by the nation of Canada. They were organized at the start of WW2 for defense of the Pacific coast and to provide reconnaissance for the Canadian Army. There are 5,000 members in villages nationwide from both sexes and aged from 16 to "who knows" since there is no mandatory retirement age. Membership seems to be a strong tradition in some families with several generations being members of the Rangers. Today they serve as early recon function in the northern regions, search and rescue units and still have a defensive capacity.

    The Canadian Rangers are the only branch of the Canadian military that keeps their issue firearms at home, since they are on call 24/7 and often live and serve far from their bases. Since they are often patrolling the bush for long periods, often provide police functions, and search and rescue operations may take longer in the taiga of the north than in suburbia, and they have several large predators in their area of operations they need to be armed.

    Back during WW2 their issue firearm was a 30-30 lever action rifle of Marlin or Winchester design (ammo was so scarce they were issued a rifle and 6 rounds of ammo), but after the war they were issued the #4 Enfield. That has continued to be their preferred weapon for more than 70 years. They are issued a specially marked #4 rifle and allotted 200 round of ammo per year.

    Due to the age of those weapons, and not their weakness or lack of service success, spare repair parts have become an issue in maintaining the #4 rifles. Several years ago a call went out for a suitable replacement. Finally in 2015 a selection was made.

    The choice was a Tika labeled, Sako designed and Colt manufactured rifle specifically engineered for arctic duty. The C19.

    http://ottawacitizen.com/news/nation...same-gun-first

    The trials, procurement, and issue of the rifles has taken so long that a civilian model has been offered before all the Canadian Rangers have even been issued a new weapon.

    So what does it take to replace a #4 Enfield?

    Retail(SMRP) price on the new rifle in civilian trim is currently $2,800 U.S. w/case, cleaning kit and optic.

    Off the rack price is $1,100 here in the States.

    Oddly, the last .303 Enfield rifle I purchased, the model still serving its function in the Canadian north, was kicked in as boot in a trade.

    That is the rifle shown in my avatar after it was heavily modified.

    Also keep in mind that the U.S. Government pays $650 per unit for the M4 carbine. So it is suspected that Canada is paying more for these Ranger Rifles than they do for the rifle they issue regular troops.

    But the Rangers keep their rifles at home, and Canada seems not to want 5000 militia members having weapons with full auto capabilities kept at the house!
    Last edited by kyratshooter; 01-19-2018 at 08:49 AM.
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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    All I know Is a boer is never far from his 303 ever... albeit back then its likely they used other riffles, but also you find 303 mixed in for the boers here and there.
    But very interesting stuff...
    Just the 303's here often spoken of quiet foundly

    http://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/hi...re-war-rifles/
    https://kieranmcmullen.com/2012/10/0...cond-boer-war/
    What I learnt in history as to why the english lost the 1st war, was not only because the boer where very good at gorilla warfare, and superior wilderness people at that time,
    But they also where superior marksmen, training with far more rounds every day, than the English would.
    Also Their use of horses was widely better, and the care they gave them was superior at that time.

    Any boer war artifacts, old riffles, etc, regardless if English,boer or other Are highly valuable artifacts here...
    Last edited by Antonyraison; 01-19-2018 at 09:31 AM.
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    Senior Member hunter63's Avatar
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    Plenty were around when I was a lad.....and as MF Model 99 in .303 savage people confused the a lot.....

    I recall them to heavy and seem to have a lot of stuff hanging out of them....so I wasn't a fan.

    Good deals could be had in 1958...most likely the reason there were a lot around, as well as Springfields and Mausers.
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    It was interesting that a lever action was issued as a far north service rifle....as water and snow in the action stops things up pretty fact...at least that has been my experience.

    Interesting stuff....
    Thanks for posting
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    kyrat,

    I stole some of your original post and put it on another forum to hear some Canadian viewpoints on your post. It was very interesting to know that such groups exist.

    Alan

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    I find this concept absolutely intriguing. We need something like this in the United States, and I am really surprised it does not exist.

    I know how my next several evenings will be spent. Watching Watchers of the North, of course.

    Alan

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    One of our Canadians replied:

    "I was Living in northern B.C. Fort St John in the late 90s and would volunteer for search and rescue missions in the area .. mostly lost hunters who didn't know how to use a compass .
    On one of these occasions I was lucky enough to meet two of our Rangers ... Man , I thought i knew the bush .. but these guys were amazing , highly skilled woodsmen and trackers with bushcraft skills that are second to none .
    We are proud to have them .

    If you would like to know more there is a site you should take a look at

    WWW.watchersofthenorth.com

    it gives an in depth look at our Rangers and the history behind them."


    Alan

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    Seems the site only has trailers. I will get the CD.

    Alan

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    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but that is just not an Enfield. Not an ugly cousin of an Enfield. Not a stepchild of an Enfield. Not even a blind date with a good personality. That is just one ugly weapon. I sure hope it shoots straight. Let's put this in perspective. An Enfield is nobility. That Colt is a bit like a gypsy. Of course is was born over the pond so I'm not sure what you can expect.

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    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
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    I thought the Boers used 7mm mausers for the most part. I think the SMLE is a fine rifle nevertheless.
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

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    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    I think the Boers, like most of the subjects of the Empire, took up their love of the Enfield after the Boer War war was over. They were armed primarily with '95 Mausers in 7mm and shot the British to ribbons at long range.

    It was not due to a superiority of the 7mm as much as it was the fact that the Boers were farmers who lived off wild game and shot constantly to feed their families. Most of the Tommys probably had not fired 50 rounds during training when they arrived in the field.

    As for the Canadian Rangers, as I studied them I grew a bit jealous that we do not have a real official militia in any state here in the lower 48. The National Guard just does not replace a true militia where the general population is called to serve and protect and authorized by the government to do so.

    Shoot, I would join the CR just to get a neat red jacket with that cool patch and a rifle with the crest branded into the stock!
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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randyt View Post
    I thought the Boers used 7mm mausers for the most part. I think the SMLE is a fine rifle nevertheless.
    they did also... they used a bunch of riffles actually, just as I grew up its the 303 that seems to be most spoken of.
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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    I think the Boers, like most of the subjects of the Empire, took up their love of the Enfield after the Boer War war was over. They were armed primarily with '95 Mausers in 7mm and shot the British to ribbons at long range.

    It was not due to a superiority of the 7mm as much as it was the fact that the Boers were farmers who lived off wild game and shot constantly to feed their families. Most of the Tommys probably had not fired 50 rounds during training when they arrived in the field.

    As for the Canadian Rangers, as I studied them I grew a bit jealous that we do not have a real official militia in any state here in the lower 48. The National Guard just does not replace a true militia where the general population is called to serve and protect and authorized by the government to do so.

    Shoot, I would join the CR just to get a neat red jacket with that cool patch and a rifle with the crest branded into the stock!
    Correct... hence they are very popular riffles still to this day, they may or may not have exactly used them in the Wars, but certainly a lot after.
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    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
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    There is a good movie called The Tracker. It's about a Boer that went to New Zealand after the war. He tracked a Maori man. The NZ scenery is awesome. Be darned if I can remember what .he carried for a rifle but for a handgun he carried a C96.
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

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    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    Why in heavens name don't manufacturers make any of those marvelous weapons today. They demand would be tremendous. Can you imagine how many would purchase a C96?

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    Senior Member hunter63's Avatar
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    I'm thing it's kinda like rap music....will never be "oldies" popular 50 + years after the fact..

    Don't think Grandpa "el-neato trick-o sold gold barrel, trigger by star wars, global GPS guided, blackout blind man, sightings system, w/Wifi....AR........... will be in be considered as GP majic rifle,... like those old rifles still being used after 100+ years
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    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    I know that in my own case the reason I gravitated to surplus rifles when I began shooting was due to price point of both rifle and ammunition.

    That was back in the day when you walked into a surplus store and they had a big wooden barrel of Mausers sitting by the gun counter and a barrel of hard ball ammo on the other side of the counter. I remember buying my first Mauser for $18 and the ammo was $0.03 per shot on stripper clips.

    Springfields were already selling for more than I could pay, so I never owned one. I did own Mausers in 7mm/7.65/6.5/8mm and a couple in 30-06. When the Mausers got to expensive in the late 1980s I quit buying them and turned to the next cheap hardware, Soviet stuff.

    I could buy an SKS cheaper than I could a Mauser and the MN rifles were selling for $25 at that time. A spam can of ammo was more expensive then the rifles. I was back in grad school at that time and POOR, so price was more important than looks, or even top performance.

    Enfields got cheap again in the early '90s so I grabbed a couple.

    The important things I got from all that ownership was that I always tore the guns down to the grip screws and learned all I could about their design and performance.

    One thing I always noted was that in every case, except for the Russian MN, the issue rifle was over engineered and intended for use by a small force fighting a quickly won war. During wartime the production of the standard issue weapon placed a burden on production that could not be easily sustained.

    (The current crop of "starter rifles" are all built on the MN 91/30 design of a round tube receiver with a barrel plugged in and some kind of trigger hung underneath and an injection molded stock. They probably have $50 in parts cost and 20 minutes labor in a Savage Axis, Compass Rifle, or Patriot Rifle!)

    The U.S. managed to increase production of difficult designs, during the War, into the millions of units, but just imagine how many PPs sub machine guns we could have produced instead of M1 carbines (we did 8 million) or how many stamped and folded MP43 rifles instead of M1 Grands (6 million). We had just started the concept of that transition with the replacement of the Thompson SMG by the M3 greasegun when both the British and the Soviets had better designs already in production. The Brits were producing STEN guns at a cost of $2 per unit and 90 minutes production time in Canada. The Soviets produced several million PPs43 SMG inside the city of Leningrad while surrounded and under siege.

    That is why the adoption of this C19 is unusual to me. It is over engineered, over priced and way too well produced, obsolete as a military weapon, and Canada needs 5,000 of them. They could have pulled some of their old FN-FAL rifles out of mothballs, modified them to semi-auto, and served the same function.
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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    I really like the old style bolt action type riffles, nice wooden stock,etc.. I dont know why it is I like them though..
    a lot of the riffle shooting i done was with either a old bolt action .22 or a 303 on the farm as a kid..
    Most recent riffle I shot was some ones ar15 and well in comparison, its super easy to shoot that ar15, and literally didn't feel any recoil..
    And I am not a particularly old person at all I some how am always drawn to the older stuff, even if I got a pistol , I would want a 1911..
    Some how they just made things better back in the days..
    The SANDF standard issue Up-till around the 80ies was actually the R1 riffle, then later replaced with R4 riffle, this is now the standard riffle for ground forces here from around the late 80ies or so..
    I highly doubt this riffle is well known at all though it is based on the a variant of the Israeli Galil ARM assault rifle. With a lot of modifications.. But Yeah... these are what our Military are presently using..
    Last edited by Antonyraison; 01-22-2018 at 08:59 AM.
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    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
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    the c96 is on my I can't hardly wait list.
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

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