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Thread: Puzzled

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    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
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    Default Puzzled

    stopped by a gun shop in a nearby town. They have shelf after shelf of shotgun ammo. So I asked about some 2.5" 12 gauge. The clerk took a measuring tape from the counter and measured a 2.75 inch shell, it measured 2.25 inch. He said there ya go, I passed on it. But it makes me wonder what does a unfired 2.5 shell measure? I have boxes of assorted old ammo, maybe it's time to go to looking.
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?


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    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    Shotgun shell length is determined after firing, not before firing.

    The overall measurement of a fired shotgun shell will vary due to the type crimp used to finish the shell. A star crimp will be longer than a rolled crimp shell.

    The chamber of the shotgun must be cut deep enough that any shell used is able to completely open inside the chamber area.

    If the shell opens into the bore area the pressures will be elevated. It is just like shooting with a bore obstruction. That is why so many of those nice old 2 1/2" shotguns have been retired. A 2 3/4" shell creates a bore obstruction and spikes the pressures.

    When you get 2.5" shells that means that no shell you fire will measure more than 2.5" after firing. 2 3/4" will be no more than 2 3/4" after firing, same for 3" and 3 1/2".

    The actions of your local dealer go to show that most gun shop owners don't know jacks#!t about a gun.

    If you had to take a test on general firearms knowledge before getting an FFL there would be about 5 gun shops in the U.S. and/or guys like you and me would have a more valuable skill set.
    If you didn't bring jerky what did I just eat?

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    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
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    thanks for the info. The clerk kind a teed me off cause I knew he was not correct and he was flippant about it. After I got back home I dug through the archives of my library and that is also what I found there. I may drop the owner a line about it, not to complain but to just bring everyone on to the same page.
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

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    2 1/2 inch shotshells will be labeled as such on the box.

    There are a number of things that aren't what they measure. 38 Spl, 38 S&W, and others will not shoot a 38 caliber bullet but a 38-40 will but not very effectively. If you want to shoot a 38-40 accurately you have to use .401 caliber bullets.

    Kinda like your gun shop guy. He works in a gun shop, so therefore he appeared bright enough to sell you the correct ammo. But, he wasn't bright enough to do that or to keep his mouth shut when he didn't know the answer. See how that works?

    Your guns shop guy needs to spend some time on internet forums READING so that he can comment more accurately in his job.

    Alan

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    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
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    I would have to agree the clerk really needs to get informed. I didn't really think they had any 2.5 inch shell but thought what if. I have some all brass shells that I will probably load up for the gun.
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

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    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    Brass shells are one solution, if they are proper length, since they have no real crimp and just a top wad.

    The other solution is to order some real 2.5" shells from one of the big suppliers like Midway.

    The other solution is to buy a stick of the little 1 3/4" mini-shells that are on the market. Midway, Cabellas and most others have them.

    The factory shells have returned many of the old shotguns in my area to use since the most common guns of that description are the fine old Browning auto-5 hump back models. In other places the common 2.5" shotguns might be doubles and singles that can use the brass shells better.
    If you didn't bring jerky what did I just eat?

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    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
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    I dug out my all brass shells, They have a overall length of 2.5 inch. The 12 gauge are alcan and the 16 gauge are UMC. From my research it says to load black powder only. It's one of those times a call to my father would clear all that up.
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

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    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    The use of either black or smokeless powder would be determined by the restrictions on the gun more than the brass shells.

    They still make brass shells today and they are loaded with whatever shotgun powder you have.

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/16...ge-2-1-2-brass

    click continue and the link will get you there.

    Brass shells were the standard in the trenches of WW1 due to paper shells not surviving the wet conditions. They were loaded with smokeless but the shotguns in use were the old Winchester 1897 and 1912 models, not delicate wire twist Damascus doubles.
    Last edited by kyratshooter; 12-25-2017 at 12:31 PM.
    If you didn't bring jerky what did I just eat?

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    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
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    thanks for the info. May father and I had talks about that but it was many years ago. For the life of me I can't see the difference of a smokeless load in a plastic or paper shell vrs a all brass shell. I pretty much remember that a safe bet with Damascus was to go with blackpowder only. If memory serves in the back of the Dixie Gunworks catalog there is info on this.
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

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    Senior Member Wise Old Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randyt View Post
    thanks for the info. The clerk kind a teed me off cause I knew he was not correct and he was flippant about it. After I got back home I dug through the archives of my library and that is also what I found there. I may drop the owner a line about it, not to complain but to just bring everyone on to the same page.
    It's human, Just because we are older and wiser. On your next visit or need for ammo. Go back and show him what you found. "Hey by the way" (Remember Me) I found the answer! thought I would share....etc.
    “There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag … We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

    Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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    Super Moderator crashdive123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl View Post
    It's human, Just because we are older and wiser. On your next visit or need for ammo. Go back and show him what you found. "Hey by the way" (Remember Me) I found the answer! thought I would share....etc.
    Or...........on your next visit let the idiot know that if he doesn't know the answer he should tell the customer that he doesn't know and then look it up. Guessing like he did might get somebody killed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by randyt View Post
    ...It's one of those times a call to my father would clear all that up.
    That "go to" sure gets missed doesn't it. There's about three or four times a week I need to ask a question. I have stopped reaching for my phone though.

    Alan

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    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it have been nice if we would have been smart enough at about 14 or 15 to have actually listened? Imagine what we could have learned.

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    Senior Member randyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Wouldn't it have been nice if we would have been smart enough at about 14 or 15 to have actually listened? Imagine what we could have learned.
    I did, the sun rose and set on my father from the day I was born until the day he was gone. Not one time did we ever have a argument.
    so the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law and you want me to believe that somehow more laws make less criminals?

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    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    I can't ever remember having cross words with my dad but I sure could have listened a bit hard from time to time. He and I got along pretty good. There was a whole lot of knowledge that would have done me a world of good if I had paid a bit more attention. He was a depression and WWII guy. See and done it guy. Stuff I can't even imagine.

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    I was talking to a young co-worker who was going to Georgia for Christmas. He was going to the girlfriends family home to spend the holiday and propose. He said it is the first time in his 20 some years that he had not spent Christmas with his parents. He said he had spent Christmases where he and his folks didn't talk. But, they were together.

    I have never not talked to my folks. They threw me out of the house when I was 15 years old and we still talked. I have celebrated all 50 of my Christmases with them. We lost my father-in-law a couple years back. Every Thanksgiving or Christmas, when our heads bow in grace, he fills my thoughts.

    I can only imagine how that will be when my folks are gone. Because of the lessons learned from people who miss their house every Thursday and have dinner. The food doesn't matter. We spend our time at the table talking or watching something like Hee Haw reruns. Sometimes my daughter and granddaughter stop in and have dinner as well. 4 generations breaking bread together just feels so right!

    You guys talking about you Dads re-enforces the need to stay close and listen. My Dad is slowing down at 74. He spends less and less time in the woods. Almost stopped hunting now. I think I will buy him one of them hunts up north where you guys get to hunt in cooler weather. We hunt swamps in 95 degree weather. That's hard on an older person.

    A little off topic. Sorry.

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    Senior Member hunter63's Avatar
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    I have run out of previous generation relatives....my side and DW side....so we borrow MB's MIL .....and try to stay close.
    Enjoy yours while you can.
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    There was always an elder that I could go to for guidance (I didn't always follow it) and there was a great deal of comfort in knowing that there was someone who could give me and answer or make a decision that was better or wiser than what I could come up with myself. Then one day, Life said, "Tag, you're IT!"

    I wish I could say I didn't cross swords with my dad. There was a period of about 6 years when we didn't speak. Then he softened and I relented. We spent the last years as friends. We both grew from the conflict. I learned more from him in the last ten years of his life than I did in the first 50 of mine.

    There was about six months after he died, when I was dealing with his estate, he left things in order but there are always questions, that I'd catch myself reaching for the phone to ask a question about something. Sometimes it was about his estate affairs, other times about guns, others about just stuff. I was his only son, so we had a lot of history.

    His advice to me was, "When making a decision, always ask yourself first, 'Is it right?' If it is then proceed. If it's not, then your decision has been made".

    Alan

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