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Thread: A brain fart

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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Default A brain fart


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    Senior Member WolfVanZandt's Avatar
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    To support your philosophy, physics has become weird, but the weirdness isn't just speculation. It's required by the mathematical models that describe what we know about the world.

    On the other hand, quantum effects aren't conditioned by consciousness. Any test instrument, whether associated with a thinking being or not would record the same effects. For instance, light is a superposition of particle and wave characteristics. It is either a particle or a wave until it is observed, but it doesn't matter whether it's observed by a human or by a dumb machine. If it is measured by a machine designed to detect particles, it will be a particle (Notice that I didn't say that it will look like a particle. No. It will be a particle.) If it is measured by a machine designed to detect waves, it will be a wave.

    In point of fact, there are no particles or waves. The universe is made up of fields - that is variations in the characteristics of empty space in a region. Matter and energy are how we perceive perturbations in fields.

    Observation causes quantum properties to collapse into specific states (Note: it only applies to quantum properties - but quantum properties are at the base of what is actually out there.). But observation doesn't condition those states. More weirdness. When you measure light as a wave, the properties of light collapse into a wave form, but you didn't cause the light to collapse into a wave.

    In other words, people have tried for years to use quantum effects to support New Age philosophies and, for years, physicists have tried to dissuade them because quantum effects do not support New Age philosophies. The catch is that quantum effects only effect the subatomic, micromicroscopic world. In order to use quantum effects to get mundane world effects, you would have to understand the quantum properties in play and then "calculate up" to macroscopic scale to determine what "real" effects are going to occur.

    In other words, if you step out in front of a bus and then imagine that the "I'm going to go right through that bus" state is going to occur, the bus is still going to flatten you. Quantum physics isn't magic. But if you could determine which state of space around you would bring you out on the other side of the bus untouched and then "observe" that state, then you could pull it off. The problem would be in predicting which state would do that.
    True enough, my final home is still out there, but this is most certainly my home range and I love it. I love every rock I fall off and tree I trip over. Even when I am close to dying from exhaustion, a beautiful sunset doesn't lose it's power to refresh and inspire me and that, in itself, is enough to save me sometimes.

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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    I am just thinking that observation requires consciousness.. sure something else can observe it bit the conscious substantiate the state of it.
    There is a lot of weirdness in quantum mechanics even Einstein had problems with it.. But quantum entanglement is indeed a thing.. anyway.. all I am saying is that perhaps we can effect the out come within our own consciousness of events simply by observing them to be a different outcome.
    Last edited by Antonyraison; 11-05-2017 at 12:28 PM.
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    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    Sorry Anthony, but nearly 70 years of visualization, imagination, prayer, positive thinking and meditation have taught me that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck,,,then it is a duck.

    The problem with using the power of your mind to control an outcome is that there are 7 billion other people on the planet using their minds to visualize a different outcome.

    Besides, I like my alternate universes loopy rather than stringy or wavy.
    Come to the dark side, we have pudding.

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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    Sorry Anthony, but nearly 70 years of visualization, imagination, prayer, positive thinking and meditation have taught me that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck,,,then it is a duck.

    The problem with using the power of your mind to control an outcome is that there are 7 billion other people on the planet using their minds to visualize a different outcome.

    Besides, I like my alternate universes loopy rather than stringy or wavy.
    Its just a thought dude.. hahah I get what your saying man.. Just a really weird existential thought. I am not saying it can be done or cant be done.. just a weird thought.
    I too feel that reality is different, just was something to ponder on.. in the smallest sense All I am saying is cause and effect.. in terms of being out in nature whatever you do or don't do will have some effect.. and that's more kinda the weird long winded point I am getting at.
    Last edited by Antonyraison; 11-05-2017 at 02:47 PM.
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    Senior Member hunter63's Avatar
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    Pretty profound ......

    Hummmm...seems to me I have heard this before....may have been back in the 1960's or '70's....
    Or
    Maybe it was close to last call at the saloon...?
    .
    I'm a fan of "Fuzzy logic"...seems to fit me....
    Quote>
    Fuzzy logic is an approach to computing based on "degrees of truth" rather than the usual "true or false" (1 or 0) Boolean logic on which the modern computer is based.

    http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/fuzzy-logic
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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    In quantum mechanics there is probability factored in to things..hence a duck is a duck and we are here and not somewhere else..however there is a culcuble probability in quantum theory that one could disappear and appear on the moon...It's a very bizzare theory when you look at things that scale.. but it makes you think about the world a bit differently.
    Last edited by Antonyraison; 11-06-2017 at 01:36 AM.
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    Senior Member WolfVanZandt's Avatar
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    The reason quantum mechanics is "weird" (although, how weird could it be - it's the absolute way the universe works) is that the human mind is programmed to function in the "real world" - we are constructed to see things in a linear, continuous, time-bound fashion (and very limited since we can only perceive a tiny range of the energies impinging on our senses). The problem is that everything we know about the real world leads us to models that describe and explain the universe as a machine whose underlying mechanics is anything but linear, continuous, and time-bound. For instance we must be traveling both forward and backward in time, but how would we know when we go backward? Going backward in time means that everything is "undone", including our perceptions and memories. Then when we return to forward motion, everything is "redone" again. We end up with the same memories and perceptions.

    In the past, we've had to be satisfied with our perceptions and the mathematical models they lead to because, even our machines (like computers) "think" the same way we do. We've programmed them in our own image. But, what if we create machines that "think" in nonlinear, discrete, non-time-bound ways. We are developing quantum computers now.

    There are very (very!) sensitive processes in nature that are at the basis of natural phenomena. They're called "chaos". Chaos makes life possible. These processes are determinate. If you run one of them and then repeat from exactly the same starting state, you will get the same result. But if you repeat from a state just a very tiny bit different (so tiny that it can't and never will be measured. Tiny in quantum terms.) the result will be wildly different. Anton, if you can get down to this very tiny manipulation and "adjust" natural processes, say, by altering your body heat in some specific direction, what you could do would look like magic. The problem is that, if you don't understand the processes you're altering, you can't direct them and you deal with a process called paradox.

    I've demonstrated at camp-outs that I can direct the way smoke comes off a campfire in still air. It's not magic and it's not even an act of will. It's just a readjustment - a rather worthless one except for entertainment. But if I do it too often, the smoke will do exactly the opposite of what I want it to do.

    I've known a lot of magic users and I've never know any of them to cause a real world change that could be attributed to their magic. When I get them against the wall by pointing that out, they almost invariably resort to, "Well, magic isn't about changing the world. It's more a way to change oneself."

    I'm rather allergic to New Age thought (and I'm not accusing you of /that/!). What I actually am is weird enough. The world, governed by physical phenomenon is so weird, why in the world would anyone want to get lost in fantasy?!
    True enough, my final home is still out there, but this is most certainly my home range and I love it. I love every rock I fall off and tree I trip over. Even when I am close to dying from exhaustion, a beautiful sunset doesn't lose it's power to refresh and inspire me and that, in itself, is enough to save me sometimes.

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    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    I had one of those talks the first time I had to poop outdoors and it was something like 25 degrees. It didn't work. I still had to get R done if you know what I mean. You can transcendental all you want but at the end of the day you still had better have some TP with you.

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    Senior Member WolfVanZandt's Avatar
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    LOL....indeed
    True enough, my final home is still out there, but this is most certainly my home range and I love it. I love every rock I fall off and tree I trip over. Even when I am close to dying from exhaustion, a beautiful sunset doesn't lose it's power to refresh and inspire me and that, in itself, is enough to save me sometimes.

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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfVanZandt View Post
    The reason quantum mechanics is "weird" (although, how weird could it be - it's the absolute way the universe works) is that the human mind is programmed to function in the "real world" - we are constructed to see things in a linear, continuous, time-bound fashion (and very limited since we can only perceive a tiny range of the energies impinging on our senses). The problem is that everything we know about the real world leads us to models that describe and explain the universe as a machine whose underlying mechanics is anything but linear, continuous, and time-bound. For instance we must be traveling both forward and backward in time, but how would we know when we go backward? Going backward in time means that everything is "undone", including our perceptions and memories. Then when we return to forward motion, everything is "redone" again. We end up with the same memories and perceptions.

    In the past, we've had to be satisfied with our perceptions and the mathematical models they lead to because, even our machines (like computers) "think" the same way we do. We've programmed them in our own image. But, what if we create machines that "think" in nonlinear, discrete, non-time-bound ways. We are developing quantum computers now.

    There are very (very!) sensitive processes in nature that are at the basis of natural phenomena. They're called "chaos". Chaos makes life possible. These processes are determinate. If you run one of them and then repeat from exactly the same starting state, you will get the same result. But if you repeat from a state just a very tiny bit different (so tiny that it can't and never will be measured. Tiny in quantum terms.) the result will be wildly different. Anton, if you can get down to this very tiny manipulation and "adjust" natural processes, say, by altering your body heat in some specific direction, what you could do would look like magic. The problem is that, if you don't understand the processes you're altering, you can't direct them and you deal with a process called paradox.

    I've demonstrated at camp-outs that I can direct the way smoke comes off a campfire in still air. It's not magic and it's not even an act of will. It's just a readjustment - a rather worthless one except for entertainment. But if I do it too often, the smoke will do exactly the opposite of what I want it to do.

    I've known a lot of magic users and I've never know any of them to cause a real world change that could be attributed to their magic. When I get them against the wall by pointing that out, they almost invariably resort to, "Well, magic isn't about changing the world. It's more a way to change oneself."

    I'm rather allergic to New Age thought (and I'm not accusing you of /that/!). What I actually am is weird enough. The world, governed by physical phenomenon is so weird, why in the world would anyone want to get lost in fantasy?!
    Very interesting,
    Yes, I am aware of quantum computers..
    Also aware of them using the state of quantum entanglement to teleport particles(i believe they where light particles/photons)
    Its just very interesting thoughts.. I am not saying new age or magic or anything, more like just a general idea or a thought, that maybe perhaps we could affect things in that way...? its just very interesting.. and a random random thought, something that I am understanding a bit more just being out in nature I guess in a way, helps me think about concepts a bit more deeply
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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    I had one of those talks the first time I had to poop outdoors and it was something like 25 degrees. It didn't work. I still had to get R done if you know what I mean. You can transcendental all you want but at the end of the day you still had better have some TP with you.
    Always gotta have Tp for the toilet of truth. hahah
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    Senior Member WolfVanZandt's Avatar
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    Well, like I said, if you can understand it, you can manipulate it, but you're talking about manipulating a complex, chaos rich phenomenon (which pretty much guarantees unexpected results) that holds the universe together. The scientists working on Trinity didn't understand the atomic bomb well enough to say that igniting one one not burn the earth to a crisp. The president said, "Do it anyway." When it didn't burn the earth to a crisp, the scientists urged the US to provide a demonstration for the Japaneses (we had two of them ready) to prevent massive loss of civilian lives. The government said to destroy two Japanese towns anyway. Then we placed an automatic system in place so that the use of a nuclear warhead against us would guarantee the total destruction of human life on earth.

    If physics is right, the ability to manipulate quantum space would be the ability to completely unravel the universe (not the "known" universe - the universe. everything).

    People keep saying, "In the future, humanity will achieve an enlightenment that will allow them to make rational decisions about how to use their awesome power". In that respect, humanity hasn't changed substantially in the last 6000 years. In fact, according to biological anthropologists (don't kill the messenger!) humanity still acts pretty much like chimpanzees.

    I know I'm being the same kind of nay sayer that has popped up every time a scientific advance has occurred. "If God meant us to fly, He would have given us wings."

    Okay, but screwing up an airplane trip just jeopardizes the guy flying and whoever he lands on (and, of course, it's happened many times). Screwing up a decision (Who has access to that little red button?) about a nuclear explosion could destroy life on earth. Screwing up a decision about the quantum substrate would wipe out everything past, present, and future.
    True enough, my final home is still out there, but this is most certainly my home range and I love it. I love every rock I fall off and tree I trip over. Even when I am close to dying from exhaustion, a beautiful sunset doesn't lose it's power to refresh and inspire me and that, in itself, is enough to save me sometimes.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfVanZandt View Post
    ...the scientists urged the US to provide a demonstration for the Japaneses (we had two of them ready) to prevent massive loss of civilian lives. The government said to destroy two Japanese towns anyway.
    In consideration of the fact that the second atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki THREE DAYS after the first one was dropped on Hiroshima, and only then did Japan surrender, I don't think a demonstration would've moved the Japanese government. After Hiroshima, you would think they would've immediately contacted the U.S. to surrender.
    "The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play." Jim Kirk

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    Senior Member WolfVanZandt's Avatar
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    Ah, and it was six days after Nagasaki was bombed and Russia declared war on them before Japan surrendered. Now days, we forget how slowly things moved back then. The point is, do you really trust people to play with the Higgs field?
    True enough, my final home is still out there, but this is most certainly my home range and I love it. I love every rock I fall off and tree I trip over. Even when I am close to dying from exhaustion, a beautiful sunset doesn't lose it's power to refresh and inspire me and that, in itself, is enough to save me sometimes.

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    Senior Member Antonyraison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfVanZandt View Post
    Well, like I said, if you can understand it, you can manipulate it, but you're talking about manipulating a complex, chaos rich phenomenon (which pretty much guarantees unexpected results) that holds the universe together. The scientists working on Trinity didn't understand the atomic bomb well enough to say that igniting one one not burn the earth to a crisp. The president said, "Do it anyway." When it didn't burn the earth to a crisp, the scientists urged the US to provide a demonstration for the Japaneses (we had two of them ready) to prevent massive loss of civilian lives. The government said to destroy two Japanese towns anyway. Then we placed an automatic system in place so that the use of a nuclear warhead against us would guarantee the total destruction of human life on earth.

    If physics is right, the ability to manipulate quantum space would be the ability to completely unravel the universe (not the "known" universe - the universe. everything).

    People keep saying, "In the future, humanity will achieve an enlightenment that will allow them to make rational decisions about how to use their awesome power". In that respect, humanity hasn't changed substantially in the last 6000 years. In fact, according to biological anthropologists (don't kill the messenger!) humanity still acts pretty much like chimpanzees.

    I know I'm being the same kind of nay sayer that has popped up every time a scientific advance has occurred. "If God meant us to fly, He would have given us wings."

    Okay, but screwing up an airplane trip just jeopardizes the guy flying and whoever he lands on (and, of course, it's happened many times). Screwing up a decision (Who has access to that little red button?) about a nuclear explosion could destroy life on earth. Screwing up a decision about the quantum substrate would wipe out everything past, present, and future.
    That is a lot to think about, and in a way I think you 100% correct, even with a very small understanding of these things us as humans have made weapons, lasers etc, things of destruction, its a scary thought, yes with a complete understanding of it all the possibilities are indeed endless.. its a very very harrowing thought to think what may happen.. but I agree we haven't evolved much in 10 000 years exactly... its in a sense we may have the knowledge to do these things, but not quiet the responsibility.. that enlightenment part is very very far for us as a species, we a bit to narcissistic . You make a good point, and I agree.
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    Senior Member WolfVanZandt's Avatar
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    My point is not that we aren't enlightened enough - my point is that we will never be enlightened enough. Take a fictional example. In Star Trek, several scientists died trying to get the teleporter right. With the Higgs field - we make one mistake - just one - and nothing exists. Nothing ever existed. Nothing will ever exist. Nothing is nothing. Zip. Finis. Finite infinitum. The church better be right because all this is going to have to be rebooted and done all over again.

    I'm a lifelong learner. I enjoy learning just for the sake of learning. But I don't have the obsessive human drive to have answers for everything. I don't /have/ to know. The only thing I /have/ to have an answer for is what I need to survive - what /we/ need to survive. We don't have to have the wellspring of all power. Not only is that not important for our survival, but based on the conclusions from human history we will - not maybe - we will destroy ourselves and everyone else.

    The premise of nuclear diplomacy is that we have a system so that, if you attack us with nuclear weapons we will destroy all life on this planet. In other words, our way of life is more important than the continuance of humanity (but without life, we have no way of life). If we can't have our way, we won't leave the option open for future peoples to correct the error. Back when people were actually afraid of nuclear escalation, that might have worked but it's getting to be a very iffy proposition.

    I've had arguments with others as to whether there is a such thing as "human nature". The argument is ridiculous. Hominids have a material brain that works a certain way. We stand on two legs and our eyes look out from an elevated position in comparison to other animals. Humans are (absolutely are) programmed to think in very specific ways. Things like attributional bias and cognitive dissonance are not things that we learn or choose. They're built into us. They're our nature and if we don't intentionally counteract them, if we let down our guard for a split second, in a second of weakness, we will make a bad decision based on them. They will not ever go away. They're emergent properties. They're not /things/ that we can remove. They are us.

    Evolution doesn't select for wisdom - it selects for survival.

    But we are getting to the point where we can guide our own evolution.

    We will select the characteristics that we choose. In effect, we will build ourselves in our own image. We will not select for wisdom because we have never valued wisdom.

    We can observe quantum effects, but we need to leave them the heck alone.
    True enough, my final home is still out there, but this is most certainly my home range and I love it. I love every rock I fall off and tree I trip over. Even when I am close to dying from exhaustion, a beautiful sunset doesn't lose it's power to refresh and inspire me and that, in itself, is enough to save me sometimes.

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    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVZ
    do you really trust people to play with the Higgs field?


    I'm still working on a boson. Since it is a non-zero constant the last thing I did when I left physics class was take the zero constant. If they are wrong then I'll be the first to know and be more famous than Einstein. If a boson comes lookng for that zero constant and I live to tell about it I'm in like Flynn I tell you.

  19. #19
    Senior Member WolfVanZandt's Avatar
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    I'm scared....

    True enough, my final home is still out there, but this is most certainly my home range and I love it. I love every rock I fall off and tree I trip over. Even when I am close to dying from exhaustion, a beautiful sunset doesn't lose it's power to refresh and inspire me and that, in itself, is enough to save me sometimes.

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    Don't you know that if we ever start getting close to destroying the universe, Maxine Waters is going to contact the Mother Ship and they are going to come stop us.

    Alan

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