most stubborn canine

[randyt]

my vote is for a english mastiff, I have one that is 12 months old. He is the most stubborn dog I have ever seen.

[WolfVanZandt]

I've been long interested in Human-Canine coevolution. I was reading an article today that explained that, in a relationship with a human, a dog will submit while a wolf will cooperate. Having known quite a few wolfdogs, I know that they tend to have a mind of their own and will go their own way. I have also known quite a few dogs that I would call "atavistic". In other words, they act more like wolves than dogs.

[kyratshooter]

Co-evolution?

Yep it happened. The dogs that did not submit or cooperate became supper. That left only the dogs with submissive genes to breed.

As fast as dogs reproduce it would only take a few years to have a preferred trait as a dominant characteristic.

As well as a lot of support to the supper pot as you culled the losers.

[madmax]

Australian Cattle Dogs are bred to be independent They have many breeds in them to get the right combination of herding instinct, the ability to take commands (with proper training), the heart to take on 2000 lb bulls in the Outback, and the ability to think independently. The last is the stubborn streak many show. They have wild dingo in them and it shows with nipping and challenging the alpha for dominance. Max is a great dog but he didn't start off as a cuddly lap dog and he still will try passive/aggressive stuff on me to challenge my authority. If you think you want a Heeler, do your research. That oh so cute little Teddy bear puppy turns into a mini T. Rex real soon and you better have the time to train it or it will sadly end up in the pound or on one of the many heeler sites saying, " It breaks our heart but we must rehome our beloved heeler. He is nipping at everyone. We live in an apartment and he needs more room to run." They could've found that out with very little effort before they brought him home. Sorry for the rant. It's a pet peeve.

Heelers can be stubborn.

[natertot]

Co-evolution?

Yep it happened. The dogs that did not submit or cooperate became supper. That left only the dogs with submissive genes to breed.

As fast as dogs reproduce it would only take a few years to have a preferred trait as a dominant characteristic.

As well as a lot of support to the supper pot as you culled the losers.

Sounds more like natural selection to me! Submit to me or feed me!

[hunter63]

Australian Cattle Dogs are bred to be independent They have many breeds in them to get the right combination of herding instinct, the ability to take commands (with proper training), the heart to take on 2000 lb bulls in the Outback, and the ability to think independently. The last is the stubborn streak many show. They have wild dingo in them and it shows with nipping and challenging the alpha for dominance. Max is a great dog but he didn't start off as a cuddly lap dog and he still will try passive/aggressive stuff on me to challenge my authority. If you think you want a Heeler, do your research. That oh so cute little Teddy bear puppy turns into a mini T. Rex real soon and you better have the time to train it or it will sadly end up in the pound or on one of the many heeler sites saying, " It breaks our heart but we must rehome our beloved heeler. He is nipping at everyone. We live in an apartment and he needs more room to run." They could've found that out with very little effort before they brought him home. Sorry for the rant. It's a pet peeve.

Heelers can be stubborn.

Some labs can be as well.....
The good hunters LIKE to hunt, LOVE to retrieve ....and will tolerate putting up with "some of the rules"....Pretty much.
They do have a mind of their own.....

My best lab ever, Monty....a rescue @2-1/2 years old......Never "was trained"....he knew what he was doing ....but the people I got him from couldn't control him...
Was good in the house and didn't chew....too much... when he came to our house...we had other dogs to play with.
He liked to eat women's shoes....but only one of each...never a pair.
Would retrieve any downed bird, no matter who shot it....track down wounded birds and dive after diving geese....and bring them back to me.

But.....Let him out of the truck would run a mile to find a mud puddle to roll in....or any dead, melting down animal,......or a fresh cow flop.....
Then expected to sleep next to me .......
Didn't play catch, or go in the kiddy pool....but would sleep under that boat or truck... in the drive way.....His "ride".
Pick up a gun....would just about tinkle he would so excited....

Just stand there next to the blind....like a statue, but quivering with excitement.....head and ears up.....and if he move his head....get ready... ducks are coming.

When done....would just jump in to the back of the truck....and go to sleep.

Many hunting dog are "broken down", then trained buck to the expected standard....had a few of those...and where good.
But were not as good as Monty......he was just all hunt....and OK I'll be good... most of the time.

I believe you get what you put into them...pretty much...but breeding has a lot to do with it as well...Monty's puppies were a great hunters as well..(that a long story)

Smartest all around dogs, were a German Shepard mix, and the other was Australian Shepard mix.......but both were stubborn as well, until "the light" came on....then they "Had it"
They were Fur Kids...well, all are fur kids.... And miss them terribly.

[finallyME]

I saw a great documentary on dog evolution. It also showed the difference between wolves and dogs. The part that really was interesting, though, was the Russian study they did with fox breeding. They started out just breeding the most docile ones. Eventually they ended up with a fox that was very dog like, even to the point that the fur changed to the different varieties we see today in the dog population. Very interesting.

[WolfVanZandt]

How about the Russian subway dogs? They've learned how to navigate Moscow. They're not feral - they're urban-wild. From what I've seen, most of the Russians like them - they're sorta everybody's pet, only they do what they want to do when they want to do it.

I'm a creationist but two things put me in contrast to my other devout Christian friends. In the first place, the Bible doesn't say that God created most things outright. The term "let the Earth bring forth...." and such indicates a process and, since evolution is about the best candidate, I accept evolution as the best explanation of how all this stuff got here (on the other hand, the Bible does say that humans and whales were created fiat so I take that at face value. Since both evolution and a Creator would favor the best design, it would be hard to tell the difference in the outcome.) The other glitch is that humans show very (very!) similar behaviors to both apes and wolves, so similar, in fact, that it's very hard for me to think that there's not something substantive going on there.

I don't believe that humans evolved from apes, but I do believe that they learned how to survive from them and from wolves. Humans are just not that physically well adapted to survive in the wild. If you drop a human naked and without supplies into most parts of the world, they would have to augment themselves considerably or die. Other creatures survive without tools, clothes, or complex shelters.

Humans got their start in the generally gentle environments in prehistoric Africa. They didn't have to work that hard to survive so, what they needed to know, the apes already knew and all they had to do was watch. That would have been the Human-ape connection. In Europe, Neanderthal had to learn to beat the much more hostile climates there and hunting was the best tactic. All they had to do was watch other predators and the wolves were evidently quite happy to strike a bargain and get fed by others in the process. A warm campfire wasn't too bad either. It's hard to start a fire even when you have thumbs. When sapiens and Neanderthalensis got together, they learned from each other and they obviously didn't dislike each other because everyone with an ancestor that didn't stay in Africa has Neanderthal DNA. Like we used to tell our clients who came up pregnant - "You know how that happens, don't you?".

The pioneers that set up campfires to drive off wolves obviously didn't understand wolves. Wolves aren't afraid of fire. The reason wolves stay just outside the light of a campfire is that they're curious but they don't want to get too involved with those weird two legged creatures. A pack of wolves think an unattended campfire is a toy. They pull burning logs out of the fire and chase each other around with it until somebody gets burned; then they all crowd around and commiserate.

The original "dogs" were likely just wolves who struck a "social contract" with Neanderthals and, over generations, adapted to living with them. It was probably "mutual admiration" until humans became the conquistadors they are today and decided that they wanted little slaves and toys instead of "best friends". The humans that decide they want to take dogs in as members of their families instead of slaves and toys get the best side of the deal.

Atavistic dogs and wolf dogs that take up with humans get a pretty good deal, too - free food and board - what' not to like? But they also have to put up with those two-leggers who seem to think they always know what's best for everyone else. Of course, they know who's the smarter of the two and they'll end up getting their own way, one way or another - only now that they've eaten that tasty pillow stuffing, they suddenly feel weird.