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Thread: Fighting knife

  1. #1
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    Default Fighting knife

    I am looking for a fighting knife to put on my web gear. "Why do you need that" you might ask. I don't have a reason. I will probably never use my web gear with magazine pouches. I am out of the Army. But, hey, why not?
    So here are the specifications. This is a fighting knife, not a bushcraft/survival knife. It's main purpose is to stick someone who wants to hurt me. It needs a hand guard. It needs to be a decent size. It can't break when it hits bone. I have to be able to hold it with one hand with blood or sweat or rain or mud or all of those on my hands. I am not a fancy martial arts knife fighter.
    I kinda narrowed my choices down to 2. Most all other choices are going to fall into these two catagories.
    1. Traditional K-Bar.
    2. M9 Bayonet.

    There are other brands similar to the K-bar. 1095 steel.
    The main difference between it and the M9 bayonet is the steel. The M9 is predominantly 420 SS. Although, OKC makes ones for the Marines that is 1095.

    For fighting (or just sticking) would the 420 SS be a better steel? Will both perform about the same? Is 1095 more brittle and more prone to breaking?

    Once we get away from the fighting requirement... A 1095 blade would be better at ... anything else knife related. The bayonet has a wire cutter, never really ran into that problem. The 1095 bayonet doesn't have a wire cutter. I can't mount a K-bar on an AR-15.

    What are your guy's thoughts?
    Last edited by finallyME; 09-09-2016 at 10:41 AM.
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    The OKC3S would, as you said, be better than the 420 SS M9 at all tasks that required an edge. It would still mount on your AR, but it won't mount on a Mossberg 590. Wire cutting aside, if the only intended purpose was use as a Bayonet, the M9 better fit's the description. While I love the MK-2 (Traditional K-Bar) it's rat tang makes it inferior to the OKC3S as a fighting knife and it can't be mounted as a bayonet. So your choice should be between the M9 and OKC3S. JMHO.

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    Last edited by M118LR; 09-09-2016 at 11:35 AM. Reason: OKC3S quick link.

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    Doesn't the OKC3S have a rat-tail tang? What kind of tang do the standard issue M9s have?

    A cheaper option I thought of was to take a bar of 1095 and with some grinding and heat treatment, I could make even a crude full tang knife with a big hand guard and scales. But, that is besides the point. This discussion is really about someone who wants to buy something available on the market.

    I guess a question that must be answered is how important is it to have a bayonet function? For my carbine length gas system on my AR, I have a bayonet lug, but it doesn't fit correctly, like it would if it were a full length M16. So, I would have to do some type of modification... which there are options for.

    If I ignored the bayonet mounting option and just looked at durability as a fighting knife (in the crude definition of the term as I have described), how much does the type of steel matter? And, in the same vein, how much does a rat tail make a difference. The K-bar has proven itself as a fighting knife. As far as I know, there aren't a lot of broken k-bar stories where the rat tail broke. Most bowie knives have a rat tail as well.
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    Not a Mod finallyME's Avatar
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    I guess this answers one of my questions.
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    K-Bar. Kind'a like a 1911, M14 or an F150 or for that matter a real GI pup tent They just work...they have and they will..Are they perfect? Nope not by a long shot...do they work...every stinking time...
    You started out saying a "fighting Knife" and then added the bayonet requirement after that. Bayonets are not "fighting knives" they are a device used to turn your long arm into a pike/spear when it is time for it. It is the most primitive level of weapon there is, past a rock, and, if it doesn't sound too arrogant, or come across as being a smart a$$, I would ask of you. Create a plausible scenario for you to ever need/use a bayonet. I totally understand that there is a possibility of using one but I am looking for a plausible scenario for using one. By the way I have like, probably 15 different bayonets. Every thing from a "plug" bayonet you place in the bore of your .75 caliber Flintlock to an M-9. I just bought an OKC3S about two weeks ago off of a former Marine who had an extra from his last deployment.
    So..for a "fighting knife" K-Bar
    Just my two cents worth since you asked us.
    Last edited by DSJohnson; 09-09-2016 at 01:54 PM.

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    I have read the specifications/requirements for the K-Bar and the knife was intended to stand up to anything a Marine could do to it. the testing was intense and severe.

    And it is still issued to the Marines 70+ years after it was adopted. There is a reason for that. Like the pup tent and canteen cup they got that one right the first time and never had need to change it radically.

    However, the American soldier has had a tradition of using privately made custom and commercial knives tied, strapped, taped and lashed to their web gear from the time of the Revolutionary War. I think I saw one of about everything made in the 1970s attached to web gear at one time or another, from dime store knives with the handles held on by masking tape to Randals. We were not Marines and they did not give us K-bars. They didn't give us bayonets either for that matter!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSJohnson View Post
    K-Bar. Kind'a like a 1911, M14 or an F150 or for that matter a real GI pup tent They just work...they have and they will..Are they perfect? Nope not by a long shot...do they work...every stinking time...
    You started out saying a "fighting Knife" and then added the bayonet requirement after that. Bayonets are not "fighting knives" they are a device used to turn your long arm into a pike/spear when it is time for it. It is the most primitive level of weapon there is, past a rock, and, if it doesn't sound too arrogant, or come across as being a smart a$$, I would ask of you. Create a plausible scenario for you to ever need/use a bayonet. I totally understand that there is a possibility of using one but I am looking for a plausible scenario for using one. By the way I have like, probably 15 different bayonets. Every thing from a "plug" bayonet you place in the bore of your .75 caliber Flintlock to an M-9. I just bought an OKC3S about two weeks ago off of a former Marine who had an extra from his last deployment.
    So..for a "fighting knife" K-Bar
    Just my two cents worth since you asked us.
    I asked for your opinion and welcome it! Thanks!
    Now to press more out of you. Why is a bayonet not a fighting knife? I am not challenging your insight, I am asking for it and want to learn more. The uninitiated will look at a K-bar and an M9 bayonet and see the same thing. What makes a K-bar a fighting knife and a bayonet not one?

    I had one day of bayonet training in Basic at Fort Benning, and half of that was getting smoked because we didn't follow instructions just so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    I have read the specifications/requirements for the K-Bar and the knife was intended to stand up to anything a Marine could do to it. the testing was intense and severe.

    And it is still issued to the Marines 70+ years after it was adopted. There is a reason for that. Like the pup tent and canteen cup they got that one right the first time and never had need to change it radically.
    This is the main reason I can't ignore the K-bar. It is battle tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    However, the American soldier has had a tradition of using privately made custom and commercial knives tied, strapped, taped and lashed to their web gear from the time of the Revolutionary War. I think I saw one of about everything made in the 1970s attached to web gear at one time or another, from dime store knives with the handles held on by masking tape to Randals. We were not Marines and they did not give us K-bars. They didn't give us bayonets either for that matter!
    When I got to Iraq, early in 2003, that one girl (US Army Mechanic) was taken hostage. That made me think at the time that I needed something for when I ran out of ammo. Being a REMF, I was not issued anything with a sharp edge, or even a dull edge. I went to the PX and bought a Cold Steel SRK. I strapped it to my Interceptor Body armour with zip ties. I used it for cutting open MREs and breaking up ice blocks in our coolers. I think it is a great knife, but it doesn't really have a hand guard. For a fighting knife, I want a hand guard.
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    Here are some pictures of the K-bar construction.
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    The broken picture comes from someone who was batoning it. Which brings up back to the beginning. I am not looking for a knife that can be batoned, or used for chopping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by finallyME View Post
    I asked for your opinion and welcome it! Thanks!
    Now to press more out of you. Why is a bayonet not a fighting knife? I am not challenging your insight, I am asking for it and want to learn more. The uninitiated will look at a K-bar and an M9 bayonet and see the same thing. What makes a K-bar a fighting knife and a bayonet not one?

    I had one day of bayonet training in Basic at Fort Benning, and half of that was getting smoked because we didn't follow instructions just so.
    For one thing, a bayonet is not supposed to be sharpened. If sharpened it is prone to sticking in the ribs or when it strikes bone. The lack of a sharp edge makes it about worthless as an all purpose knife. As DS stated, it is an extension of the body carrying a pointed instrument used for the same thing the Greeks used their spears for at Marathon or the Zulu at Rorkes Drift. Even after WW2 the British had a spike bayonet, so did the French and there is the ever famous MN spike bayonet.

    A "fighting knife" is not a defined term. Different techniques require a different knife and all of them basically require an extremely sharp edge to perform as intended. In WW2 the Americans adopted that K-bar style, which is based on the traditional and ancient English butcher knife. The British adopted the Sykes Fairbun style stiletto. Army Rangers had their own pattern too.

    If you only had one session of bayonet training I am sure you had zero instruction on knife fighting!

    On top of that the preferred fighting styles change with time. I did not get the same instruction that was given in WW2 and Korea and I am sure the advanced training has changed since the '70s when I was in. Our training incorporated a thrust and slash technique that was intended to induce massive blood loss, not a walking dead head stab or lunge to bury the blade in the body.

    We were actually encouraged to use other weapons if they were available, entrenching tools, shovels, broken rifles as clubs, any body parts lying about....

    But that brings another aspect to the discussion. The first sentence I heard when our instructor opened his mouth was; "The winner of gunfight may walk away with out a wound, but be certain that even the winner of a knife fight is going to intensive care!"

    So, for attachment to the web gear I would go one of two ways. If you never intend to use the web gear get a real cool knife that looks good hanging there on the rig cause it doesn't matter if it works. Or by a good utility blade if you might have to grab it and run someday.

    BTW I made the combat knife I carried while in service (still have it +44 years), and I also carried an Air Force Pilots survival knife as a backup, and a 4 blade issue camp knife. We did not have the wide variety of military knives that are available today and even the military knives were only slightly modified commercial models.

    I sent 4 knives to Iraq with sons #2 and #3 in care packages at their request. 2 of them Gerber multi-tools, one Gerber LMF and one of those WW1 brass knuckle trench knives (who knows why , they were Marines!).
    Last edited by kyratshooter; 09-09-2016 at 08:51 PM.
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    In lieu of a Crashblade, I'd go with the K-Bar. For the price you will not be disappointed.
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    As the discussion of fighting knife would take pages to unravel, here is a link: http://ontarioknife.com/fixed-blades

    If a fighting style knife on a budget (that looks cool and actually works) I'd start here: http://ontarioknife.com/fixed-blades...15-9893-detail

    If you are K-Bar bound, I'd suggest the D2 Extreme. http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/246

    I own/have owned and have used the knives that I suggested. As you have not described a need for salt water corrosion as a prerequisite, the always in need of sharpening MK3 Mod 0 dive knife need not be considered. http://ontarioknife.com/fixed-blades...91-1056-detail

    If the traditional K-Bar is just unavoidable: http://ontarioknife.com/fixed-blades...92-4102-detail can save you a few dollars.

    Hope you notice that all the Ontario Knives have NSN's.

    ps: almost forgot, DSJohnson My 12 gauge 590 has an M-9 that mounts on it, it is quite useful for close encounters.
    Last edited by M118LR; 09-09-2016 at 10:11 PM. Reason: NSN's

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    Take a look at these:

    OKC Fighting Knife: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ontario-Knif...item2caf878bfd

    Ka-Bar Dog's Head: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ka-Bar-1317-...item51d1587347

    Those are good prices on both knives with free shipping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by finallyME View Post
    Now to press more out of you. Why is a bayonet not a fighting knife? I am not challenging your insight, I am asking for it and want to learn more. The uninitiated will look at a K-bar and an M9 bayonet and see the same thing. What makes a K-bar a fighting knife and a bayonet not one?

    I had one day of bayonet training in Basic at Fort Benning, and half of that was getting smoked because we didn't follow instructions just so.
    Finally Me,
    You have me beat as far as formal real bayonet training goes. I went to boot camp at RTC San Diego in July of 1974. The only bayonets I saw had been chrome plated and permanently mounted to a status board hung on the bulkhead(wall) at the Quarterdeck of the training regiment I was in. However, in my opinion, most of the modern bayonets are actually more utility tool than bayonet. I agree that structurally and visually there is truly very little real difference between a M-9 and an issue K-Bar. So in the big picture considering a modern bayonet there is not much difference.

    While I was assigned to the Armory (W-6 Division) on the AS-19, the USS Proteus I started wearing a MK1 made by Camillus that a BM1 gave me. He made Chief and said that CPOs did not need or use such tools. I wore it almost every day for about 9 months and never used it for anything except cutting boxes and a coupe of pieces of rope. I am not a "Swiss Army Knife/Multi tool" kinda guy so I usually do not pick a combo tool. You asked about fighting knives and to me when I hear bayonet it is not a fighting knife. Since you asked me the difference I have been trying to sort that out.

    At the time I was thinking of an affordable, dependable, proven knife that I could recommend and say without a doubt this is a fighting knife first and then a "whatever" you need it to be tool next. In my world, the men I know/knew who had actually used a knife in true hand to hand combat had a very high regard for Randall No. 1s and K-Bars, but like Kyrats has said, "In the field/at sea" I have seen just about every kind of belt knife ever made being worn or carried in some fashion.

    Okay so I have tried to address/answer your question, now tell me again when you will need the bayonet function?

    Thank you for taking the time to explain your thinking on the whole fighting knife deal by the way. Good thread!

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    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    The only tactical use of the bayonet I have seen in recent doctrine has been associated with "house searches" where the use of the device is geared toward the intimidation of the occupants of a house being searched more than as a combat tool.

    The instructions being to offer them a look at you bayonet a few inches from their face and the women, children and old men will usually comply.

    The sequence of events being rip away the courtyard gates, kill the dogs, blow off the door, throw in a concussion grenade, flood the room with troops, shove your bayonet in their face, if anyone moves stick them or shoot them and yell CLEAR!

    The military version of "making friends and influencing people" and what to expect in the up-coming searches of American homes for firearms.

    When I was in the order to "fix bayonets" would have struck terror in most troops. It meant your unit was out of ammo, or the enemy was about to rush you with overwhelming force to the point that you were not going to have time to change magazines. Or you were about to do the same to them. A salvation experience was had by one and all along with the offering up of intense prayers and specific deals made with the Creator.

    No matter which choice you got a bunch of people were about to die in a very close, violent and messy manner, because that kind of combat never follows the pattern one is taught. It turns into a frenzied melee reminiscent of what one would expect when grabbing the tail of a Tasmanian Devil.

    BTW, the most produced bayonet in modern times is probably that used on the AK rifle. If you ever examine one you will find that they have NO USEFUL CUTTING EDGE. There is a chisel grind on one side only that goes down to a dull edge like that found on a butter knife. The spine of the blade has a toothed edge for sawing rope. It looks like a knife, but is not really usable as one. Additionally, it is mounted upside down on the rifle, not in the edge down condition we are familiar with.
    Last edited by kyratshooter; 09-10-2016 at 11:30 AM.
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    I think that in a real knife fight or "encounter," the attitude and intent of the knife user is much more important than the style and manufacturer of the knife. Whatever happens is going to happen very fast and very brutally. I know of an incident in Los Angeles at Marina Del Rey where a police officer was literally decapitated by an insane man who was off his meds after being released from the insane asylum at Camarillo. The insane man used a standard, folding Buck Hunter 110. Worked for him due to his intent.

    In another incident, in the following video, I seriously doubt the knifeman had any knowledge of the steel or the maker of his knife. Nevertheless, it performed very efficiently for him due to his intent.

    This happened in Honduras and was filmed by a news team. If "graphic" bothers you, best to avoid this video.

    https://www.full30.com/video/9030f86...1f3244842a91c2

    Goes to show what a man with a knife and "intent" can do to a person who is armed with a gun.

    Enjoy.

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    A long, long, long,long time ago, on continents far, far away; Frogmen armed only with MK-2's ventured into the hostile territory of aggressors armed with full-automatic assault rifles.
    The object in an armed conflict isn't to allow the enemy a fighting chance. The object of a knife attack is immediate cessation of hostilities. Ambush, total surprise attach, etc instantaneous overwhelming and incontestable force is the only method that allows the attacker to survive with minimum incapacitation. The concept of a fighting knife is foreign to the lessons learned during combat survival. Fighting knives are those knives used to gain advantage during H2H combat, and H2H combat is used only as a last desperate resort. Each and every H2H training discipline has a different style of blade that optimisms the maneuvers particular to the H2H training discipline. So I would suggest that you choose a knife for your web gear that is of high utility for the intended cutting purposes that you utilize most often.

    Take a look at the Gerber Strong arm: https://www.amazon.com/Gerber-Strong...ber+strong+arm
    or other such simple and utility style of knife.

    Professional Grade:
    http://www.knifecenter.com/item/CRKG...e-brown-sheath
    http://www.gerbergear.com/Knives/Fix...nt-Knife_06995
    These would be part of the search should you really be serious in your quest.

    For instructional information on the use of the MK-2, search for Michael D. Echanis. Hwa Rang Do discipline. Author of Military instructional manuals. Quite useful for use of MK-2 (K-Bar type Fighting/Utility Knife.) Your Welcome.
    Last edited by M118LR; 09-10-2016 at 11:27 PM. Reason: Professional grade.

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    My grandpa was a frogman. There are a lot of things he didn't tell me. One of them was what type of knife he had. He did tell me he was the det-cord guy. His team would ride in an inflatable until they were about 2 miles from shore. Then he would sling the wraps of det-cord over his shoulder and swim in the 2 miles with only a mask, fins and swim trunks. I am 100% sure he had a knife. Someone would set the charges in the reef, and he would hook up the cord. Then they would swim out and blow up the reef so the Marine's could land. He did this on Okinawa and I am sure other places he never told me about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    For one thing, a bayonet is not supposed to be sharpened. If sharpened it is prone to sticking in the ribs or when it strikes bone. The lack of a sharp edge makes it about worthless as an all purpose knife. As DS stated, it is an extension of the body carrying a pointed instrument used for the same thing the Greeks used their spears for at Marathon or the Zulu at Rorkes Drift. Even after WW2 the British had a spike bayonet, so did the French and there is the ever famous MN spike bayonet.
    I definitely never thought about this. I guess, if you really want a bayonet, then a spike would serve better in this role.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyratshooter View Post
    A "fighting knife" is not a defined term. Different techniques require a different knife and all of them basically require an extremely sharp edge to perform as intended. In WW2 the Americans adopted that K-bar style, which is based on the traditional and ancient English butcher knife. The British adopted the Sykes Fairbun style stiletto. Army Rangers had their own pattern too.
    Yep, this is why I tried to define it in my own terms at the beginning. Since you are correct in how much knife fighting instruction I received in the military, I doubt to ever do any actual "knife fighting" where two guys stand off from each other, each with a knife, and they try and stab each other. For me, it is more "I have no ammo, they are overrunning my position, they have ammo, what do I do".
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