cars and the internet

[kyratshooter]

I am in a situation where I need to purchase a "backup car". That second vehicle you keep when you live in the country just in case your "good car" breaks down. Not a fancy rig, just a reliable second car for occasional use.

Problem is, every time I find something promising, and do a web search, I get thousands of reviews of this problem-that problem-and the other thing the evil minion car manufacturers have done to purposely drive anyone that buys that car insane. Some go as far as to accuse the mfg. of attempted murder!

Then when I check for the percentage of that model that exhibit the specific problem I find that it is only one out of 50,000 units, things like .3%, that have the problem. But everyone that has the problem gets on the internet and screams like a manic monkey.

Then I think, what if I am one out of 50,000 ?

I am now convinced that there has not been a satisfactory vehicle manufactured in the history of automotive technology, no one knows how to build a transmission, clutches are designed to sever your legs and if you lift the hood expect to find a bomb, and the brakes, we don't need to go into the brake horror stories!

At least I can not find a single vehicle that has been manufactured since the development of the internet that does not have thousands of unsatisfied purchasers typing their complaints in bold capital letters.

[WalkingTree]

This is why I have my attitude that I have about cars/trucks...how they should be made (or at least offering some which are made this way instead of all being from the other design approach) and what to look for when shopping -

Not wishing for a break-down to never happen, but instead being able to deal with the break-down when it does; Go ahead and try to design something such that it goes for a long while before breaking-down and runs well while running, but make sure that it's not painfully complicated or expensive to fix when it does break-down; Don't try so hard to prevent a break-down in your engineering that you forget the need to design-in an ease-of-repair when it does break-down; Don't focus so much on awesome advanced complicated technology intended to make something run so well and efficient with all kinds of sensors and regulators and jibber jabber all in a small light-weight space twisted around itself like a Chinese puzzle...such that one component of this pretty masterpiece costs a fortune and working on that component almost requires taking the whole thing back to the intellectually introverted nerd-genius-lab in order to fix which takes 6 months and super-expensive equipment to do so.

So...my wish as a vehicle shopper in a perfect world, and the thing I'm thinking about in trying to obtain information on things, is not so much for something's reliability and low chance that it'll break-down, but instead being able to fix the darn thing whenever it does break down without being trapped and sucked into a bunch of b.s. that costs a lot of time and money. That is what I call actual advanced technology.

Which is "more technologically advanced"? - The A-10 Thunderbolt/Warthog, or the F-35? In an absolute sense? Or remembering that the best tool box is one with many tools - knowing that no matter how powerful your Queen is, you better put your rooks, bishops, and pawns to good use?

Windows 8, or Windows 10?

Hehe...

[Rick]

Go to the local library and look at their April issue of Consumer Reports. The April issue is their auto issue and they have a listing of all the used vehicles and their reliability. They even have a break down of the best and worst used cars by price range.

[finallyME]

The problem with internet reviews is that people are stupid. There is a lot of operator error. And no one wants to admit that they are the error.

You also have manufacturers designing for obsolescence. Why? Because that is what the consumer wants. Rarely does someone want something that lasts forever. And, the manufacturer also wants customers coming back for the newer model. Manufacturers could probably build a car that lasts a long time, but the big problem is that it would probably cost more and not have as many features. Sure, the customer would save over the long run... but... look shiny!

I doubt there is any advice I could give you that you don't already know. You probably know more about cars than I.... But, hey, this is the internet and you asked for an opinion, so you are going to get it..

My advice is to either buy a brand spankin' new car from a reputable Japanese company and count on the warranty, or buy a used one. With the used one, try and get the tail end of that particular model, or at least a few years into the model run. The first few years are trial runs, and then the next few years get decent models, and then they change the model and start over again. My Saturn SL2 is a 2002. They stopped making it in 2003. I wouldn't buy any Saturn after that date, they really went downhill then. But, my SL2 has been a great little car. Bought it with 6000 and it almost has 200000. I will probably try and replace the engine when it does go, or my kids total it. My oldest gets her permit next month.

You will always get a car with problems. But you can mitigate how many it will have by not getting all the power options.

Of course, at your age....... You are probably at the point where you don't buy green bananas. My grandpa bought a brand new prius a few years before he died. He loved the thing. He didn't live long enough to see it get "old".

[hunter63]

I feel you pain....
There really isn't a "car" out there that I actually like...so I would be screwed as far as picking one out.
They all look alike, they all are over priced, are equipped with technology that doesn't even belong to you.

The used cars are even harder to figure out.

The interweb has made every decision a major deal be it automobile or best knife....and everyone want to warn and impart all the possible badness they can think of....that you desperately need to know....I guess.

I will be interested in what you come up with.

[kyratshooter]

Thanks Rick.

That will lean more toward the percentage of cars with a problem rather than just giving the problems the loudest voice.

One thing I have seen is that as "luxury trim" trickles down to the small car category people start buying based on the number of bells and whistles rather than gas mileage and reliability.

There is also the current problem of shared parts. The same transmission or engine being used in 20-30 different vehicles of all makes and models. The owners of one brand vehicle claim the transmission is an abomination from the devil and the owners of another vehicle with the same trans have no complaints!

I was having a real laugh at some of the complaints. Vehicles with 150,000 miles and complaining because they have to buy a new timing belt! 100,000 miles and a vibration caused by a worn out tire, and the dealer will not give them a new on under warranty! Then there was the girl that bought the little hatchback with a broken gas gauge. She knew it was broken but still wanted a full refund because she had run out of gas three times!

People seem to think that changing the oil is al they should have to do for the first 250,000 miles!

[Lamewolf]

"The problem with internet reviews is that people are stupid. There is a lot of operator error. And no one wants to admit that they are the error"

I've been in the automotive service industry for 40 years now and seen it all. I get calls all the time that this or that doesn't work and most of the time its because they either have it turned off or simply have not bothered to read the owners manual on how to operate it. Had a customer come in yesterday complaining that his doors unlock themselves and he is scared that someone is going to steal things from the car. He says he locks the doors and every time he walks by it, he checks to see if its still locked and it pops right open. If he had only read the manual, he would have known that if he has the remote in his pocket and it was within 32 inches of the car and he grabs the handle, it unlocks automatically. Then all he has to do is get in, step on the brake and push the start button without getting a key out of his pocket. A lot of times it boils down to "fixing the customer" as we call it. But if you want something dependable, and I have this opinion and work with them because I trust them, they have a proven record, mine has 315,000 miles on it and still going strong, a Honda is mighty hard to beat !

[WalkingTree]

Had a customer come in yesterday complaining that his doors unlock themselves and he is scared that someone is going to steal things from the car. He says he locks the doors and every time he walks by it, he checks to see if its still locked and it pops right open. If he had only read the manual, he would have known that if he has the remote in his pocket and it was within 32 inches of the car and he grabs the handle, it unlocks automatically...A lot of times it boils down to "fixing the customer" as we call it...

Now see, that right there...is the kind of thing that frustrates me sometimes. One of the types of problems that I have with my windows 10 versus 8 or anything before that.

It's always easy to be overly biased by your knowledge from your side of things, if you're not careful. And without realizing it unless you try, you get into the you-versus-them rut of saying too often that it's just that the customer or user is dumb or isn't trying to educate themselves. Something basic that is radically changed like a car automatically unlocking itself this way...is not the kind of thing that you "hide" in the user manual. This kind of thing...you make some extra effort to tell them. Put some fandangle removeable sticker notification somewhere on the inside that is impossible to miss. Or actually tell them. Or something. I would be pissed as he** if all of a sudden the new design was to automatically unlock my car this way...and act like your A was covered because it's in the user's manual and you didn't tell me about such a basic thing being changed like that...and then wrote it off as me just being a dumb customer who didn't sit down to read the whole manual.

If it's hard to break out of the rut and see this, allow me to tell a story to demonstrate this very particular kind of thing in a different way -

I went to Braums once a long time ago. I ordered a hamburger. I said "no sauce". I got the hamburger, unwrapped it, and found mayonnaise on it. Took it back up to the counter, explaining how I ordered no-sauce, and showed how it had something on it. The guy said "there's no sauce on it. it's made right." In my bewilderment, I pointed again to the mayonnaise. He said that isn't sauce. I said huh?! After a few minutes of smug idiocy from him, I finally figured out that, while ketchup, mayonnaise, mustard, and other stuff are considered sauce...in a common-noun kind of way...that Braums has a sauce mixture which is two of the common sauces mixed together, and the name of this sauce is the word "sauce". The name of this particular sauce mixture has the proper-noun name of "Sauce". Therefore, when I said no sauce, to them it meant no "Sauce"...but I'm still getting mayonnaise because I didn't specify "no mayonnaise".

Now...here is the important part - I asked him "why don't you tell people that you have a special sauce mixture that you named "Sauce"? So that people don't get screwed over like this?

Now get this...this is what he said in response - "You didn't ask."

So...like...um...ya know...erm...if you can explain to me how in the world I would have ever possibly conceived of the idea anywhere in my brain that I needed to ask about something like this...

...out of the blue I randomly have the idea that I need to ask these people if they just happen to have named one of their sauces by the word "Sauce" so that when I say "no sauce" on my hamburger I don't end up actually having some sauce on it...and it's my fault for not knowing because I didn't ask him...

...then I would be amazed and humbled.

It's not the same thing, but still it reminds me of how entities are more and more thinking they can get away with anything as long as they slip it into that long thing that you agree to, knowing that because of how things operate in our society many people can't take the time to read through all of it first.

[hunter63]

So...WT...What kind of second car do you like.....?

[kyratshooter]

Walking Tree, I have to say it;

Your refusal to read the owners manual does not shift responsibility to the technician/salesman/manufacturer.

It is just like ignorance of the law not being a defense in court.

[WalkingTree]

So...WT...What kind of second car do you like.....?

Well, somebody like me...I'm screwed. On second and first car. Because I'd want something like a truck...gmc or chevy or ford...from anywhere between 70's to 80's. But 10 or 20 years ago that would be a good move. But by now, by 2016, they either truly are worn out, or they've been rebuilt to some degree and in that case it's not relatively inexpensive anymore, which is one of the reasons why in the past I'd have gotten something like that for a used vehicle. And things on the road these days...I'm either just too unfamiliar with everything to feel good about a choice, or I hate them because they have too much freaking engineering and take a life-time's pay to pay for. Unless it's something I hate anyway...and that's another thing - every single thing on the road since sometime in the 80's is so extremely ugly. I mean...like...what happened?? Everything is as ugly as ugly can get, and/or it's designed and priced for the wealthy upper class...or it's a deadly trap concerning the issue of maintenance when it breaks down.

So I don't know man...don't know what I like. I feel kind of ignorant these days on such matters. Think I'm just gonna ROTTW and use my feet

[WalkingTree]

Let's notice the sudden "strawman" here -

...Your refusal to read the owners manual...

[Rick]

Yeah, when all else fails read the instructions. Ya know?

Here's what I bought.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

Here's what it felt like to me when I first sat in the cockpit...er...a....seat.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

So, you bet, spent a lot of time looking at the owner's manual pictures. Even read a few things.

[hunter63]

Well, with every vehicle I have purchased since 1989.... but all of mine have been new but a year old left over stock at dealers.
Have gone "with the deal" on an 1987 Ford PU, 1999 Ford PU and a 2008 Ford PU all at least a model year old.

Exception was DW's PT Cruiser, Ordered new the first year they came out (#89 in the state)......2001 model year
Her brother was an employee, so got the discount (We had a AMC/Renault/ Chrysler plant here that is now a vacant lot).

The 87 is gone but the 1999 and 2008, plus the Cruiser as still around......all low miles an no plans to purchase anything except maybe a older fun type BOV ...Jeep C-J or Dodge Power Wagon....sort of thing.

So, I am also screwed if I had to pick a newer vehicle, ....especially a car.....even a used car.

I like my trucks as well....Do like the Cadillac ATS-v
http://www.cadillac.com/v-series/ats-v-coupe.html
So....

[shiftyer1]

I can tell you that if you find a Pontiac grand am, grand prix or Bonneville from 2000 on that wheel bearings need replacing often other then that they'll really take some abuse as far as bad maintenance. I normally get between 200k and 250,000 miles out of them. My son is now driving my mothers old car, she however really keeps up with maintenance. It was at 250k when she parked it and then he started driving it 2 years ago. It's still going. We've probably had 7 or 8 between us and they've all done well. They're inexpensive used too

[WalkingTree]

Your refusal to read the owners manual does not shift responsibility...

That's what she told me last night though anyway.

[Lamewolf]

"Yeah, when all else fails read the instructions. Ya know?"

AMEN !

[Lamewolf]

Now see, that right there...is the kind of thing that frustrates me sometimes. One of the types of problems that I have with my windows 10 versus 8 or anything before that.

It's always easy to be overly biased by your knowledge from your side of things, if you're not careful. And without realizing it unless you try, you get into the you-versus-them rut of saying too often that it's just that the customer or user is dumb or isn't trying to educate themselves. Something basic that is radically changed like a car automatically unlocking itself this way...is not the kind of thing that you "hide" in the user manual. This kind of thing...you make some extra effort to tell them. Put some fandangle removeable sticker notification somewhere on the inside that is impossible to miss. Or actually tell them. Or something. I would be pissed as he** if all of a sudden the new design was to automatically unlock my car this way...and act like your A was covered because it's in the user's manual and you didn't tell me about such a basic thing being changed like that...and then wrote it off as me just being a dumb customer who didn't sit down to read the whole manual.

If it's hard to break out of the rut and see this, allow me to tell a story to demonstrate this very particular kind of thing in a different way -

I went to Braums once a long time ago. I ordered a hamburger. I said "no sauce". I got the hamburger, unwrapped it, and found mayonnaise on it. Took it back up to the counter, explaining how I ordered no-sauce, and showed how it had something on it. The guy said "there's no sauce on it. it's made right." In my bewilderment, I pointed again to the mayonnaise. He said that isn't sauce. I said huh?! After a few minutes of smug idiocy from him, I finally figured out that, while ketchup, mayonnaise, mustard, and other stuff are considered sauce...in a common-noun kind of way...that Braums has a sauce mixture which is two of the common sauces mixed together, and the name of this sauce is the word "sauce". The name of this particular sauce mixture has the proper-noun name of "Sauce". Therefore, when I said no sauce, to them it meant no "Sauce"...but I'm still getting mayonnaise because I didn't specify "no mayonnaise".

Now...here is the important part - I asked him "why don't you tell people that you have a special sauce mixture that you named "Sauce"? So that people don't get screwed over like this?

Now get this...this is what he said in response - "You didn't ask."

So...like...um...ya know...erm...if you can explain to me how in the world I would have ever possibly conceived of the idea anywhere in my brain that I needed to ask about something like this...

...out of the blue I randomly have the idea that I need to ask these people if they just happen to have named one of their sauces by the word "Sauce" so that when I say "no sauce" on my hamburger I don't end up actually having some sauce on it...and it's my fault for not knowing because I didn't ask him...

...then I would be amazed and humbled.

It's not the same thing, but still it reminds me of how entities are more and more thinking they can get away with anything as long as they slip it into that long thing that you agree to, knowing that because of how things operate in our society many people can't take the time to read through all of it first.

There are things telling about every feature on a new car - its called the "owners manual". The car would look pretty stupid if it had stickers all over it telling how each item worked and after sitting in the sun heating up and cooling down several times before it gets sold, stickers can get pretty messy ! If you don't know how to operate a particular feature, just look it up in the index of the manual and go through it step by step until you are familiar with it, it really is that simple ! Oh, the next time you order a hamburger, just order it "plain"....

[hunter63]

There is nothing of use in an owners manual any longer, other than disclaimers, and "Thou Shalt not's".

Any other question is a "Take to your dealer".......
They don't even have a legend and diagram of fuses......

So reading the manual is no longer informational.

Our IT guy had a sign over his door that read "DYRTFM?" .....or "Did You read the freaking manual?"

BTW our two little laptop/notebooks have a quick start up sheet....No manual.

[WalkingTree]

I think I'd just be mad that they even made my car so it unlocked by itself when I was close...without asking me first if I wanted it that way. It's default setting. I'd be looking in the manual to turn that option off. And complain that it's default setting wasn't the other way around.

A lot of my complaints about things like windows 10 is not me knowing how to use it, but it being designed to work a certain way in the first place. I run into stuff that operates in a particular fashion and there's no way in heck that I'd want it to operate that way. I can change some things, but I get pissed at the idea that I have to spend 2 hours figuring out how to change something to a way that I feel should have been it's default state in the first place, instead of the other way around...2 hours, each time before using the computer for a 5 minute task.