Hygiene Hypothesis and Pasteurians

[Faiaoga]

"Cooked: A Natural History of Transformation" is a 2013 book by the food writer Michael Pollan. He discusses different methods of cooking and their relationship to human history and culture. He also mentions two concepts related to microbes and our modern obsession with sanitation and sterilization: the Hygiene Hypothesis and the Pasteurians. While Pollan is not a doctor or medical researcher, he brings up some important points about our modern lifestyle and our dependence upon processed foods.

The Hygiene Hypothesis states that contact with microbes (bacteria and viruses) during childhood is necessary for the human immune system to develop. Pollan points to research indicating that autoimmune diseases and allergies are not commonly found in children raised on farms, children exposed to dirt and animals not fond in cities. The label Pasteurians is given to people who try to avoid any kind of natural world exposure by obsessive use of antiseptics, sanitizers and sterilization.

As a science teacher, I have seen these ideas before but did not have a label for them. After living in a village where children grow up in constant contact with animals, plants and the environment, I think the ideas have merit. It is possible that our concern about microbes may leave people open to new diseases.

[1stimestar]

Yes this is not a new theory. We are MEANT to be exposed to germs and bacteria. This is how our immune system is activated. We were also meant to have healthy gut flora since the gut is where the immune systems starts. So it is not only lack of environmental exposure but also all the chemicals in the processed foods we eat, our guts are being compromised.

[WolfVanZandt]

While not being a doctor or medical researcher, Pollan keeps up with the research better than most doctors who typically think, "I've been doing fine in my practice - no need to change things now." He's been journalizing about the food industry for some time now. In addition, researchers tend to know what goes on in their labs; Pollan keeps up with what's going on in people's homes and in country's capitals, farms and grocery stores. He's very holistic.

I have had several experiences where the group I ate in the same restaurant and ate the same food and the rest of the group was writhing on the floor and I just went for wet towels and cleaned up. I've never been overexcited about what germs I might be picking up. When I cook for others, I'm a little cleaner than when I'm cooking for myself - I figure they're probably sensitive. I despise antibiotic hand soaps. There are "germs" (usually beneficial symbiotes) on your hands that protect you from really bad microbes and the hand soaps kill the good guys. Then there's less competition for the hardy monsters that you should really worry about because the weaker bacteria are the ones that the antibiotics mostly target.

Everyone does an experiment in microbiology where they plate out a colony of mouth bacteria and place disks of filter paper soaked in several mouthwashes on the plate. When my class did it, bacteria thrived around the Listerine. The instructor claimed that it was because the weaker bacteria was killed and the serious strep was left without competition, so they had a field day.

On the other hand is the raw milk movement, who wants to legalize the sale of raw milk. I love raw milk - if I know that the production practices are quality and clean. But having worked in the dairy industry, I know that that ain't necessarily the case. And then there's the folks that advocate eating raw, rotten meat - well, that's just crazy talk in my book. I could care less about pathogens in that case - if nothing else, the aesthetics.......

[LowKey]

I've always been of the opinion people should eat more dirt.

I once watched a person use Formula 409 on their countertops. They spray it on and wipe it off. I asked, "have you ever read the label? You are supposed to leave it on 10 minutes then rinse it off, and even then it only kills 99% of the germs, leaving really tough, bad-*** germs behind. Your spray and wipe only momentarily knocked them for a loop."

The only time these days I get really ill from eating something is if I somehow get into meat that has been injected with salt brine to keep it moist while cooking. All of the grocery store pork is this way now, and a lot of the chicken too, it's gotten so I tell friends, no pork chops for dinner (I get mine now at a local slaughterhouse right off the saw.) All that salt water is sorta like that stuff you drink for a colonoscopy. Just not quite as intense. LOL.

Love raw cookie dough. Haven't seemed to suffer from salmonella.

Now current research is saying kids need to be exposed to peanuts too, at a very very early age to stave off that allergy. Most parents now are deathly afraid to give a baby peanut butter for fear of an allergic reaction, when they should be to prevent one later.

Not to mention what antibiotics do to the critters in your gut.
Have you seen the pills people are making now so cancer patients or people with C. diff. can return their healthy gut flora...
Encapsulated frozen poop.
That's taking eating dirt just a leetle bit too far.

Crazy world we live in.

[Rick]

I actually discussed his theories with a dermatologist. Not at length mind your but during a visit. The Doc said if the man had to actually treat people that work in dirty environments, on farms or cutting grass he would find those folks have the highest incidence of allergies. It just doesn't work the way Pollan proclaims that it does. I don't know any more than that.

Lowkey - Love raw cookie dough. Haven't seemed to suffer from salmonella. - That's anecdotal at best. Some would say you've just been lucky. What should folks think if you do contract it and die from it?!

[Phaedrus]

I'm not sure that's true, Rick. The guy with the dirty job or cutting grass probably still had an antiseptic childhood. I am no doc either, of course.

[WolfVanZandt]

You gotta remember that they treat people with allergies by exposing them gradually to the materials they're allergic to.

But I have to admit that I don't like to give regular people advice about medial subjects using myself as a reference. Neanderthals aren't that common and we function somewhat differently than typical people so, what works for us doesn't necessarily work for others. Our immune systems are so hot that we don't generally have to worry about infections anyway - what we have to worry about is our immune systems turning on us and killing us.

[hunter63]

Few thoughts that come to mind........But not for very long.

Well, some people are just allergic to "Work"......of any kind.....

I sure that one can find some agreement to most anything you can think of..... if you look long enough.

Common sense tell you don't eat dirt, stuff that bothers you, doesn't taste good (maybe why "taste" was invented?) or you don't like it......

The herd needs thinning form time to time.

911 has messed up Murphy's Law.

[WalkingTree]

I recently watched a show "In Defense of Food", on Michael Pollan's book by the same name I think. Was pretty good.

I always felt that one of the biggest factors which separates us from the natural world...from being able to live 'primitively' in the wild to more of an extent...is the microbiological world. Not that it's the only thing of course, not by a long shot. And not that other animals don't have this issue to some extent. But I'm talking about things like being able to drink from water sources with no preparation (relatively). Or eat and handle raw foods more without any cleaning or cooking (again, relatively). Though I just can't imagine it being palatable even if we could. I could never even get into raw fish or kelp - Japanese cuisine.

People know by now that there are other organisms that are part of our bodies, and that we need these other organisms. But what most may not know is how much of our bodies are actually these other organisms. The majority of the DNA that can be found in your body is not your own, but is of these other organisms. In some respect - I don't remember which respect - these numerous other whole species/communities that are in a mutually-dependent relationship with your body actually outweighs or outnumbers all that is 'you'.

It's also interesting to know that when you are born, your body does not have everything that it will eventually have and needs yet - whatever happens to be the microbiological environment in which you're born has great influence upon what all these other organisms/species "infect" your body and remain there in a mutually-dependent relationship for the rest of your life.

I've also always felt that people have gone a bit too far in trying to sterilize their whole lives. There are definitely certain ways in which we need to be careful and clean. And I like to generally be hygienic. I can even be seen to unconsciously wipe my hands on my clothes after handling door handles or buffet ladles, or wiping off pepper shakers in a restaurant before I handle them. And I do know how to cook safely. But I've always had a problem with using hand sterilizer 10 times a day, being scared to get dirty in any way, and constantly using strong cleaner on every surface in my home. I definitely always had a problem with people who will go out of their way and walk 20 feet to squash a bug they see somewhere outdoors. And I always hated the idea that a front/back yard isn't "nice" unless every living thing except the grass is constantly eradicated. It's my belief that, usually at least, you don't get sick because you're exposed to something; You get sick because you're NOT ever exposed to anything - everything around you being so sterile. You should allow your immune system to occasionally have to deal with minor things in small ways. If not, then when you are exposed to something your immune system is spoiled and you'll get much sicker and for a longer period of time. As I understand it from trained nurses, the great majority of effective hand-washing is done from simple physical scrubbing under running water.

I've never had any allergies, and it's always seemed that if I am allergic to anything, it's the air from house and car air-conditioners and heaters, and being indoors too long at a time or if that indoors space is too "controlled" - like if the windows to that indoor space are never opened. Handling dirt and plant material during yardwork always somehow felt like I'm healthier because of it. But of course I know that a lot of my personal experience might only be that - is anecdotal and may not be very indicative or supportive of much.

Concerning Michael Pollan versus doctors...remember that doctors are not scientists, or researchers. They are the technicians. And that's one (only one of) of the reasons why, by the way, you can sometimes find 5 drastically different opinions or levels of knowledge among 10 doctors.

[LowKey]

If I die from salmonella, I hope its from brownie batter rather than cookie dough. Either way, my friends will finally get the last laugh.
Most bugs that bite me, die quickly. My system has always run hot.
Or, if I'm that lucky, maybe I should go buy a lottery ticket...

Chickens can be vaccinated against salmonella infection. There are now working vaccines for humans too. Perhaps repeated low-level exposure throughout childhood has done the same thing for me [shrug]. But I'm no medical researcher. Just keepin on keepin on.

[Rick]

It has only recently been learned that we are about 5-8% Viral DNA. We are still mostly us. Well, at least I am. I am pretty suspicious about some of you.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....in-the-making/

[WalkingTree]

We may be confusing two different things. Our DNA is mostly us, and some of it can be the remaining traces of viruses that have been caught in the past but parts of their DNA became permanently part of ours.

But this is different from all of the other species of organisms that live forever within your body, and maybe upon the surface (no matter how clean you get). We have a mutually beneficial and dependent relationship with them - or with benign neutral effects. The individuals of these many species have their own DNA, separate from ours. But they often outnumber ours/us in certain respects.

Some of the numbers in the following links aren't static or necessarily precise (yet?)

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...s-on-your-body

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microbiota

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun...dy-is-a-planet

[Rick]

I was just reacting to "The majority of the DNA that can be found in your body is not your own", which reads differently than our body is host to other organisms.

[WolfVanZandt]

It's a fairly common view in diverse cultures that we don't stop at our skin - that our surroundings are parts of us and vice versa. In many ways, this is the "correct" model. After all, we don't communicate with our hair nearly as much as we might communicate with various biota on and in us but they all perform important functions for our survival. There is a growing amount of evidence that our bodies have chemical communications to and from our surroundings and there may even be considerable DNA exchange with our environment (horizontal evolution). The boundary between self and other becomes fuzzier the closer we look at it.

[WalkingTree]

I should word things mo better.

Anywho...there's a pattern, a commonality, to how we do a lot of things sometimes that I just never had a good feeling about. A trend in a certain direction in many areas. Homogenizing the wilderness. Homogenizing front yards and back yards. Homogenizing our hands. Homogenizing our bodies. Homogenizing in how we farm. Not always, no. And there are always efforts to do things differently, yes. But in humanity there is a going-too-far element of make all things human or human-serving.

Much of how we farm, for example, is what's required. But the fact that it's required, because there's so many of us and we're so wasteful, is what I'm thinking about. It seems that it's all pointed to a state-of-things in the future wherein there is no real ecosystem or biological diversity anywhere. All is either farmland or some sort of human occupation. We won't use/rely on the natural global hydrologic cycle anymore, because we can't. Nor for our breathable air, and more and more we'll be in climate-controlled environments instead of being able to bear the plain ole out-of-doors due to the weather. All food, vitamin, and medical requirements will be met in a more synthesized and artificial way. Mother Earth's traditional natural system of operating isn't efficient enough anymore to sustain us, because before it wasn't just about us. So kill everything, the old way of operating, and transform everything to operate a different way in order to sustain and serve humans.

Humanity From Space:

clip - http://www.pbs.org/video/2365524413/

full episode - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UCmCs7hc1g OR http://www.pbs.org/video/2365530573/?

while I'm at it, a bonus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0GhTmZhrs

[WalkingTree]

Makes me think of this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUHQugyxqAc

(Him wanting to see the frontier 'fore it's gone)

[Rick]

So what point in history was in perfect balance. And remember, the further back you go the shorter our life span. The upside is that we are beginning to understand our impact and to improve how we do things. Population density isn't that bad. We are just clustered into very small areas we call cities. If you look at the density of New York City, 26,400, we think that's horrible. But then there is the 6.5 per mile in Montana or the 1.2 per mile in Alaska. Not so bad.