22lr rifle starts with 120 ft lbs, normal loads

[taint]

(from a RIFLE barrel )Stingers start with 160 ft lbs, from a RIFLE. . 22 pistols have significantly less power, penetration, ability to expand a hp . A little pocket 22rl. 2.5" barrel, has just 70 ft lbs of "power". The 22 rifle has lost enough velocity to have only 60 ft lbs remaining at 150 yds. That is the army's "minimum lethality" level of energy, cause it matches the .25 ACP, which is well known to be just barely capable of a lethal blow. The blunt, soft lead bullet of the .22lr sheds velocity quickly, it is not capable of doing harm at more than half a mile. and not much harm at 1/4 mile from a pistol. It would have to be an eyeball hit. The warning on .22lr ammo boxes says "1 mile+" because people are so POOR at just ranges beyond about 1/4 mile. it takes 20 ft lbs to pierce the skin and a rib. So a .177, POINTED pellet, from a rifle, IF it misses the ribs, might well be lethal, to 20 yds or so, on an adult male, if he's not wearing heavy clothing. The same sort of thing applies to .22lr hits, at the longer ranges.

the army's standard for minimum lethal penetration is a ROUGH 1" pine board (ie, not 3/4" finished pine) and NOT a mere 1/2" thick pine board. The .22lr, from a rifle barrel, will not pierce such a 1" board at 200 (measured, not guessed) yds.

[Rick]

You might want to look some of those "facts" up.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...=1&loadNo=0050

[Wildthang]

My god what a wealth of information we get from the taint.........LOL Have we committed him to the Troll thread yet??

[crashdive123]

Not worth the time or energy.

[Hummer70]

Well here is a story of a shooting that occurred in Alabama in the 80s. I knew the shooter (she has passed) and she told me the whole story and showed me the scene.

Her husband had gone to work and she was in bedroom standing at a chest of drawers and she sensed someone behind her.

In the top drawer was a Ruger MKII 22 pistol with long barrel and she opened the top drawer and pulled it out,spun around and pulled the trigger.

It all happened so fast she had no description of the intruder so she called the Sheriff's Office. Now you would have to know the sheriff to appreciate this.

He arrived with half a dozen deputies and they looked over all the walls, door etc for a bullet hole and there wasn't one. The Sheriff told her, "Well Hon you need a bigger gun." I knew the sheriff Printiss L. Griffith and he was a real piece of work and extremely popular in Russell County Alabama and I can just picture him telling her that. He was so popular that no one would even run against him. A really great guy that applied "good ole boy" logic over and over. Unfortunately he came down terminal and passed.

Well they left and three weeks later this neighbor died who lived down the road about a mile. The paramedics arrived and noticed he had a healed wound dead center of forehead so the Sheriff sent him for an autopsy.

Now would anyone like to guess what they found?

Yep the 22 LR bullet from "Hon's gun"

In Spartanburg, SC back in the 70s this couple was having a argument on the sidewalk. She pulled her gun and shot him six times point blank and he stood there and argued with her another 30 minutes and walked 1.5 miles to the hospital where he recovered.



I read the FBI Uniform Crime Reports for a ten year period and by caliber 22 killed more than all the other calibers but incidents like the above makes me not want to depend on a 22 for anything but small game.

Do a search for Col Martin L. Fackler MD (he was the Director of the Army Wound Ballistics Lab, Presidio, Calif) who is a long time friend and read what he writes about wound ballistics. He completely debunked the previous military theories of wound ballistics and established the current bench mark for evaluation of ammunition and terminal effects in humans.

[finallyME]

That is one messed up story...thanks for sharing.

[Wildthang]

I heard somewhere that a .22 Magnum will shoot through a bullet proof vest, and cops hate the .22 Mag for that reason. Is that True?
Where is taint when we really need him.......LOL

[Hummer70]

There are some sorry vests out there IIA is the normal under shirt armor which if I remember correctly is 22 layers of kevlar. The IIA is primarily a handgun vest. I wouldn't want to be wearing one and shot with a NATO Spec 9MM round. They are flimsy and even if you don't have penetration the "backface trauma" can get you going on a dandy heart problem.

I was on a Dover Devil MG demonstration for two weeks at Ft. Knox and this Captain as showing me tanker body armor which appeared to be a IIA model in OD green and he was itching to know if our 9MM SMG would punch it so we suspended it on plywood and stapled it up. The 9MM NATO SPEC round sailed right through. Did not even vibrate it enough for the staples to let go ! ! ! !

Then he wanted to know if a 45 ACP would do it so I shot it with my Gov't Model. No penetration but backface energy took about a 6" piece of plywood behind the vest.

[natertot]

Hummer, IIA is not typical armor, IIIA is the standard issued armor but it is rated for hand guns only. The exception to this is .22 which will still penetrate it. Many also insert "strike plates" into their armor which will stop .22 as well as bladed objects.

Here is a link for body armor ratings that I use as a resource for my job.
https://www.officerstore.com/images/nijspec2.htm

Out of curiosity, where are you getting the FBI stats for caliber used? I receive their annual reports all the time and I have never been able to get the calibers used. I inquired into caliber stats and was told that they don't go into the level of detail for their stats and that they only differentiate by firearm type such as pistol, rifle, and shotgun. Due to the nature of my job, these stats would be helpful for me if you could guide me. Thanks!

[Hummer70]

Natertot, just sent you a PM but when I hit send a porn site jumped up????? If you did not get it advise.


The copies I had were from the 80s as I remember. Call the FBI (can't remember who I talked to) and they sent me about eight back issues.

I have seen a 9MM 90 gr bullet punch 44 layers of kevlar and keep on trucking. It was a MDP developed at AberdeenPG in our unit (Sm Arms and Automatic Weapons/Ammunition Test Branch. I saw it punch a IIA vest from a 5" barrel at 100 yards ! ! ! !

I wanted to see if someone could make the bullets but CNC was not up and going then. The designer estimated it would penetrate 150 layers of kevlar based on other tests he did.

I just went out as I was sure I could put my hands on the UCRs but not there. Now I am wondering if I chucked them.

The predecessor to the manual you reference above was done by Dr. Dan Frank at the NIJ. In those days IIA was the standard LE and the big enhancements came after 911.


I did find a 1989 Test Report from the FBI Firearms Training Unit dtd June 1990. Would you believe the pages are not numbered ! ! ! ! ! This would have been in the time frame Bill Vanderpool was one of the wheels in the FTU, talked to him about six weeks back looking for old copies of the Intl Wound Ballistics Assn (IWBA) Journals. Bill was also a Charter Member of the IWBA when it cranked up circa 1990. There were three LE types that were IWBA Charter Members, there was another in the (I think it was) Michigan State Police? The third was myself. I still have my membership card somewhere and am Member #8. If I remember all others were MDs. Total 78 I think last list I saw.

This tests covers hundreds of tests the FTU conducted on standardized ballistic gelatin and cover 10MM, 9MM, 38 Special and 357 Mag. I estimate the book is 200 pages long.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...0-caliber.aspx

[kyratshooter]

Back before year 2011 the FBI put out detailed studies and completions of data. Not so now.

It really means that we have no real tracking of calibers used in the commission of crimes.

The .22rimfire leading the pack is 20-40 year old data and the days when the average SNS was a .22 revolver are long past. Back when I was a young adult there were suppliers of .22 revolvers that sold for $12-$15 new in the box.

Iver-Johnson is gone and H&R priced themselves out of the cheap gun market, so really cheap .38 pistols are scarce.

Even the small caliber auto-pistol seems to not be the favored small arm any more. Through the '90s the Raven and Jennings guns held that positing.

Seems everyone, even the thugs, have moved to the .380/9mm size offerings.

I suppose that goes with the change in reason for shootings today. A jealous boyfriend might go after someone with a .22, but a drug dealer needs more firepower if a deal goes bad, and often has the money for a better more powerful gun.

[Hummer70]

Yes I suspect the No 1 drive by special is the 7.62X39 followed by the 9MM for intimate social events. The UPS guys say they deliver cases of both all the time to home addresses.

[natertot]

Hey Hummer, I did not get the PM for one reason or another.

You have a lot of good info, much goes back to when I was quite young, but learning a bit from that far back is allowing me to piece together a lot of the things I see today.

As far as #1 drive by calibers being 7.62x39 and 9mm, it is hard to say. In general, those are very popular calibers. Lucky Gunner reported for 2013, 9mm was their most profitable caliber responsible for over 21% of their profit while 7.62x39 was in the top ten but only the fourth most common rifle round (not including .22 since we don't know what that is being shot out of). http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/2013-ammo-stats/

With 9mm pistols readily available brand new for less than $300 and even cheaper on the used market and 9mm being the cheapest pistol ammo out there, it wouldn't surprise me to see their use everywhere across the board. This includes thug and crime life, but also low income or fixed income households, budget oriented persons, new shooters, and those who simply like the round. 7.62x39 I thing is hard pressed to be a criminal round. First off, because it is a rifle and long arms are very seldom used in the criminal elements because they are also much harder to hide. Also, with the prices of AK/SKS rifles climbing as high has they have been over the last 5 years, they have lost their economical value. I would thing that sawed off/pistol gripped shotguns would have more popularity with crime than rifles, but that is speculation on my part.