What comes first Shelter or Fire?

[Wise Old Owl]

I see from all these wonderful video's on Discovery that Shelter comes first. Then they suffer three nights and never get a fire, to me that's amazing. Humidity, moisture, lack of dry wood,,,, etc.

My Question is more about critical thinking - to me collecting material for both comes first. After finding a water source nearby.

Hey just looking for thoughts here.

[hunter63]

I'm voting fire first......although a lot would depend on clothing, location, other gear......
Fire can play a part in security, water processing, food cooking processing weapon points, light etc.

Proper clothing IS shelter, so the need for fire may be less if fresh water available.

Watching N&A right now....they chose shelter, and drank from the lake....We will see.....LOL

[Batch]

Shelter would be a priority without any hesitation.

We were playing golf the yesterday. Temperatures are usually in the mid 90's this time of year with high humidity.

We had weather bands moving through that chilled the air to the point that I would think of it as cool. When it did rain the cart had a fold up window rear cover that goes over your clubs. I have Dri-Ducks in my golf bag. If I did get wet, I would at least be uncomfortable.

Fire provides heat, light and possible protection from predators. Shelter blocks the wind, protects against rain, snow, sun. Provides a barrier between you and predators or dangerous animals. Regulates temperature both hot and cold.

I don't know if you meant the History Channel and Alone or not. But, given the temperatures and the rain. Which would you chose an un-sheltered fire or a shelter and no fire?

[WalkingTree]

I feel that the answer to such a question depends very much on your situation. The environment, climate, equipment, time of day, etc. I always say that the rule-of-thumb-clichés that float around won't help a person survive at all...they instead need to understand the issues that they face and basic skills necessary so that they can make a reasoned decision for themselves. I also always say that in the beginning, you really need many things at once. Making the priority judgment calls for the first couple days is the trick. You aren't in trouble when you get thirsty, hungry, cold, or covered in mosquito bites...you are in trouble that first minute. That very first moment, you are already in trouble, and you should treat things as such.

post edit - I chose "Collecting material near a water source first". That way (as someone else mentioned below) in one action you have fire material and building material, and you don't find yourself hiking for miles to water later or the next day after becoming mean-thirsty from building the initial shelter etc. But this assumes that you don't spend too much time or energy finding a water source first.

[Batch]

I'm voting fire first......although a lot would depend on clothing, location, other gear......
Fire can play a part in security, water processing, food cooking processing weapon points, light etc.

Proper clothing IS shelter, so the need for fire may be less if fresh water available.

Watching N&A right now....they chose shelter, and drank from the lake....We will see.....LOL

Proper clothing is a great protection from the elements and if you have it you may prioritize differently. Saying it is shelter means you feel you have shelter and are now going for fire.

But, in my environment you are dealing with rain and water. You are not going to sleep on the ground in the open with a fire even in the best rain gear. Also, how is your fire going to work with out protecting it from the rain?

[natertot]

This is a question that does not have an absolute answer. It depends on needs and the current situation. Am I wet and need to be dry? Is it raining? Do I have water? All these things come into play with this question.

Personally, I carry a tarp, some line, and a few stakes so getting at least a improvised shelter in 20mins or less really is never an issue.

[Seniorman]

Where I recreate, Rocky Mountains, if I have to stay out at night, I'll construct a shelter first with a tarp and paracord, then gather my wood and build a fire. I always have the proper clothing with me so although I might be uncomfortable through the night, I'll certainly survive.

As far as a fire is concerned, I go by that old adage, "When you think you've gathered enough firewood for the night ..... triple it."

S.M.

[Phaedrus]

It will depend on the circumstances but generally shelter is the first order of business. As much as we obsess over fire it's unnecessary in a lot of situations and where it's really dry the fire might be more dangerous than doing without. If you have shelter you may not need a fire at all. Really, what do we need fire for anyways? In cold weather it's helpful but a well constructed debris shelter will keep you warm enough. It depends on your gear, the environment, the temp, etc. Fire is useful for sterilizing water but generally you have some time; you can live a few days without water in many situations. And drinking water tainted with bacteria is always better than dying of dehydration. The first order of business is to get out of the elements. For example if it's raining you're much better off getting under a tarp and then planning your next move than trying to start a fire in the rain.

[crashdive123]

As has been stated ---- depends.

For my location shelter would be my top priority most of the year. During the colder part of the year (parts of winter), fire would probably top my list. In both cases it is for protection from the elements.

That being said - water procurement is near the top of the list. In summer with the afternoon thunderboomers the initial source would be from the sky, followed by a water source that would need to be boiled/filtered.

This of course assumes "no gear". I don't go on a day hike without a poncho, a couple of trash bags and some other gear. My shelter may not take all that long to build, and of course if I have that material I also have a fire kit or two so that is not an issue either. I just don't go into the woods naked or afraid.

[MrFixIt]

The area and situation would decide what comes first for me as well.
Having said that, the old mantra "3 minutes w/o air, 3 hours w/o shelter, 3 days w/o water, 3 weeks w/o food" always comes to mind.

[Lamewolf]

Shelter is always first, remember that exposure wheter hot or cold can kill in 3 hours. If it cold and raining or snowing or windy, shelter is of utmost importance to shield you from the elements. In most cases, shelter materials are basically the same as fire building materials, wood ! Collecting extrat wood while gather shelter materials is not a bad thing but you need to concentrate on keeping dry and out of the wind, and if its hot you obviously don't need to worry about fire right away. Aslo, you can last up to 3 days without water, maybe less if its really hot, but water is your next priority after shelter and fire if needed in that order. If its raining, you can set out a container to catch water while building your shelter and let mother nature work for you. But bottom line is, you need protection from the elements first !

[TXyakr]

Depends on your environment. But generally you should just assume it will rain regardless even if it has not in a month or more. Collect tender material as you walk around looking for low areas or possible springs for water and anywhere that has poles and foliage that can be use to make shelter. I.e. collect stuff for fire, shelter first. Then build minimal night/rain/snow shelter first saving whatever looks good for fire as you go (should have been collecting basic tender/ fire starter all day put in bag or bundle and carry by hand if you must, assuming it will rain and all will be wet later). Make feather sticks if no obvious tender exists, try several different types of hanging dead branches not from ground to see what works best if area is not your regular stomping grounds.

THEN!!! once basic, minimal shelter but NOT Taj Mahal is done AND you have a reasonable amount of fire wood BEFORE it got dark (i.e. about 3-5X what you think you could possibly use) start and keep a very small fire going, boil water. Continue working on shelter. I.e. add about 3x or more leaves than you think it could possibly require to keep rain out and your body heat in, assume temperature will drop way low then it will rain before sun comes out and keep things very cold and wet and put your fire out. I.E worst case SHTF. If every thing is rose petals then sing a happy song and say this is shear luxury. That is what my father did. It seemed to tick off the folks who focused on minor discomforts of living in the bush. Focus on what you CAN DO! That is what I learned.

Edit: If for some reason you do not have even a poncho or tarp of any kind and must rely on a debris shelter then I would allow a minimum of 6 hours before sunset to build a shelter (depending on availability of materials). If a LOT and some man made junk perhaps as little as 4 hours. Use your fingers/hands between sun and horizon. Each finger is about 15 minutes but you should calibrate your fingers every few years especially if you get very fat or skinny. Or far north or near the equator etc, i.e. 6 hands fingers together, still have about one hour after with some light if not very cloudy and plan to work thru any rain non-stop. Go for water if possible, sure humans can theoretically go 2-3 days without water, but if you ever tried it you will know they are not very productive and make serious errors. SO if at all possible drink some water!!! You will be more productive it will be worth the time spent! People who plan survival base on book knowledge and no experience make my eyes roll back in my head.

NOT Survival mode: When I am just recreationally camping and NOT in a true survival mode or practicing it I always set up my temporary shelter (most often a tarp + hammock but I also own 5 tents for where a hammock does not work or wife likes air mattress etc.). Because location is very important and I need maximum light for that, I have learned to be very picky, avoid human and game trails, falling rocks and widow maker limbs and trees etc. etc. Get as far from other humans as reasonable without offending them. Then I collect fire wood if regulations allow (no fire ban). And if I have all my gear (not extreme survival mode where all is lost) starting a fire takes about 1 minute at most once fuel is collected. But I assumed this question was about survival mode not recreational camping.

Hotel I put everything in drawers, hangers and safe and empty suitcase in closet, wife and kids leave open suit cases with clothes and shoes scattered everywhere. Ticks me off.

[TXyakr]

There are many scenarios were a fire + collecting fuel for it should be first over shelter or water. One I thought of based on my life experience is if you were driving down a very remote dirt logging or ranch road during a thunderstorm and got washed into a ditch or flooded stream and only survived with the poncho on your back and somehow lost your trusty belt or neck knife with fire-starter attached (cord/belt ripped lose as you were being washed down stream). Similar scenario if your gear all got lost in a river with watercraft (raft, canoe, kayak, Jon boat) hung in rapids or logjam, you survived but were swept miles down river, cold and very wet. All gear hung up in trees and logjams on the other side. Very unlikely but possible this could happen. I know of a few people, one was my Father, he even lost his blades and firearms. It took him days to reach civilization, he was young and lacked experience.

Then first priority would be to collect enough fire wood (standing dead, and dead branches lower down on older trees, aka squaw wood which sounds racist to me) to build a small fire from friction. Hopefully you have some cordage from boots, belt, jacket etc. rip bits of clothing. Can make a minimal bow and board. If not hand drill or saw which are MUCH more difficult in pouring rain. I keep either a single utility razor or tiny folding knife in minimal FAK in my pants pocket but could cut wood with stone or clamshell but that’s major PITA. Try it some time, you can make a fire-board and spindle etc. but very difficult and takes a long time with shell or sharp rock. When you lose your blade you will suffer! So have a backup blade! I bought 12 Maxam® Falcon IV Lockback Knives for about $11 including shipping on eBay. I attach to keychain, FAK, inside PFD on loop, to loop in swim pants and loop inside pocket of hiking pants, many places. They are junk but for less than $1 each better than nothing if I lose my primary bush knife. Same with 1” ferro-rod toggle for fire starting. Over the years I have collected and used several magnesium blocks even a tiny one, shaving a bunch off it in very wet conditions helps to get started, also sold in toggles or cut bottom off your cheap one from Harbor Freight (cut SLOWLY!! by hand! or be smart buy toogle on eBay.)

Then huddle under poncho or rain-suit or dry-suit/dry-top from canoe/kayak make insulated backrest with debris so backside does not get extremely cold. If at all possible lean two branches or poles (saplings broken off) against a tree (not tallest!). Make a small triangle of leafy branches on top of it sit under this beside fire so most of rain is not pounding you and fire. Will also deflect some falling branches. Sit on as much dryish brush as possible so lighting does not fry your posterior, keep feet out of water as well. Reconsider trips during major thunderstorm weather, and don’t drive down a muddy narrow road with zero visibility or attempt to cross any flooded streams, ditto for canoes in rain swollen rivers. I am older and a bit wiser now, but I still like adventure. If I stayed on sofa for rest of my life it would be shorter by a decade or two, must get out there.

[Sarge47]

It depends on a lot of things. How much daylight do I have? How quick can I at least get the 3 room cabin tent up. Does my charcoal lighter have enough butane....

[kyratshooter]

I have spent many nights in the elements when fire was not a possibility, and often was not allowed. Cover yourself up with your poncho, lean against a tree, and catch what sleep you can.

Shelter is a necessity, and sometimes your clothes, although they are a form of shelter, are not enough. Even the simple act of digging a hole in the ground and covering it with branches will get one out of the wind, eliminate the wind chill, and allow one to survive. Dropping into a hollow or around the side of a bluff, or even diving into the middle of a thick grove of trees can put you in a place where the temps are either higher or lower as the season demands.

Then there are all the folks backpacking out west, where open fires are not allowed, and they have to get by with those little back packing stoves. They seem to make it through the night with just their sleeping bags and clothes. They filter their water, or treat it with chemicals, no fire needed.

But I want fire too, if I can get it, or its presences will not cause me grief.

Shelter is a necessity, fire is a luxury.

[TXyakr]

Building no shelter at all or a very minimal one can workout OK assuming you have a rain resistant jacket, coat or poncho or a tiny pocket tarp, even a large garbage bag 2’x3’ because most debris or bush-craft shelters thrown up in a few hours leak like a pasta strainer, i.e. never enough layers. If the skies are clear then the temperature will drop very fast as soon as the sun goes down so pile many layers of leaves held up with sticks on top and make the space small to keep your body heat in. If it is cloudy the temperature will not drop quite so fast but it will be more humid so you also need protection above to keep the dew off and more space below to avoid trapping the humidity, regardless it will be steamy. But with luck the morning sun will dry you out in a few hours, if not and it is raining that is a bummer, you will mold like cheese and smell like Roquefort (stinky but tasty French unpasteurized sheep’s cheese). Research best quality fabrics that will not smell when sweaty or wet so predators don’t think you are a sheep or goose. Some wools and synthetics are much better than others both at not absorbing smells and water and at drying.

If cloudy and humid and all the wood is wet and/or green it will smoke and you may not be able to sit very close, especially if winds are shifting and if you think you planned it just right and winds change you may not able to breath in your shelter with fire burning. So sleep in cold, wet shelter or breath smoke all night long. Verbose way of saying just sitting around fire all night long with rain jacket on, leaning against logs and makeshift backrest of sticks stuck in ground is sometimes the best. I have slept all night sitting up but in a slightly reclined position on the ground in the open air beside a small campfire (no sleeping bag). It was fine. In hindsight fewer adult beverages would have been wise, only joking I drink very little alcohol.

[WalkingTree]

I hear tell the cowboys on the open plains would start fire, shave an area of ground, spread coals over this area, cover back up with dirt, and sleep on that with a simple blanket over them. If rain or nothing else will be a problem, for just keeping warm with practically nothing and not many trees or hillsides to be up against...if it's pretty cold and even a stiff wind, you got some minimal fabric (or bank up some dirt along your profile a few inches high) to block the wind from directly hitting your face, hands, feet, etc...it can't do too bad keeping you warm. Might not be perfectly comfy, but will keep you alive and actually let you get some real sleep.

post edit btw - just noticed on the poll, the "no clue or something else" is climbing. Arg!

[LowKey]

"Didn't put enuff dirt down....Saw it right off..."

[hunter63]

Going down the river....dump my canoe (...and y'all know how often we do that around here)....
SO...I get out of the water and make a...... shelter?.....naw, I'm still sticking with fire ..in my scenario.

....and as no scenarios were presented....that my story and I sticking to it....besides...who wants to sit around a ...shelter?

[natertot]

Going down the river....dump my canoe (...and y'all know how often we do that around here)....
SO...I get out of the water and make a...... shelter?.....naw, I'm still sticking with fire ..in my scenario.

....and as no scenarios were presented....that my story and I sticking to it....besides...who wants to sit around a ...shelter?

I agree. I can find/improvise a shelter rather quickly. I always carry a tarp and a canoe can make a bit of a shelter as well by propping it up at an angle with a few sticks. If I am soaked and need to get dried out, I want fire. When I hear the coyotes in the not too far distance, I want fire. When I am thirsty and starring at a lake, I want fire. When the temps dip at 2 am, I want fire. When I catch a fish, I want fire. When rescue is looking for me, I want fire. Shelter may not always be ideal, but it is easy. Fire maybe more difficult depending on the situation and may provide for more immediate necessities than shelter.

I will stick with fire overall, but it depends on the situation as well.