Child rifle

[finallyME]

Here is a thought experiment I want to try out. Let's take the WROL scenario, no matter how far fetched. I would want to utilize all means necessary to arm my family. There is no point in only arming myself, when I have other members of the family to help out. Right now I have 6 kids. 2 are old enough to use pretty much any firearm I give them...within reason (basically they can use a lightweight AR). 2 of my children are 5 or under. But I have a 10 year old daughter and almost 9 year old son. When I take him shooting, he can't hold up my AR, but he has no problem with the recoil, and the collapsed stock is short enough as well. Here is where the thought experiment comes in.... If I was to arm him today, along with his sister...what would be viable options? He has no problem with a single shot Cricket. He can load it, cock it, and hold it up and aim and shoot. But, I want to go bigger than a .22LR. Ideally a .223 would be great. It isn't too big of a round. But most rifles I see chambered in it are too heavy for him to hold up. I was looking around and found that I can get a break open .410 for around 3.75 lbs. A Cricket is around 2.5 lbs. I am guessing 4lbs is probably the most...although there is no way of knowing without testing. A 9mm or 10mm carbine that comes under that weight might be a winner. What are your thoughts?

Ultimately, this will probably end up being a non-issue. By the time I have the money to buy an AR15 for my wife and two oldest, my next two kids will be old enough to use an AR as well. But, hey, it's fun theorizing...right?

[randyt]

I was going to suggest a m1 carbine but a 9mm carbine would probably be the better option due to ammo availability.

[Wise Old Owl]

interesting thread - who is teaching the firearm safety class?

[kyratshooter]

I have a .223 Rossi that fits you criteria perfectly. It also has a .410 barrel.

The accuracy of the .223 barrel is adequate and is drilled and tapped for scope. You can also buy an accessory collapsible stock, similar to the M4 stock, which will allow the gun to be used by both large and small.

My kids were shooting in supervised situations at 9 and 10, but I did not turn them lose to hunt alone until a couple of years latter.

There are recorded instances on the American frontier where 10 year old boys stood at the fort walls during Indian attacks with their little sisters standing behind them to reload. Childhood goes on for much longer now than it did then.

[TXyakr]

Not sure what your budget is but for something that a kid grows out of fast I would not spend much, that is why Crickets are popular. Consider buying used (I assume you already are.). I like the AR 9mm, minimum recoil, cheap ammo if you buy in bulk online etc. 10mm can be more difficult to find in my area sometimes. Many lightweight lowers, short barrels available, can be adjusted to size of the child. Only problem is that it is not ideal for long range hunting and basically only plinking, target practice. For small deer not elk .243 bolt action "youth" model, whatever you get a good deal on perhaps Remington? I like a short barrel .243 for feral hogs. Compare the ballistics online, varies widely based on specific ammo and barrel length.

[hunter63]

I am gonna second the Rossi Combo.....223/410 or .243/20.....
For all the reasons stated....both useful calibers and light weight.

Pistol caliber carbines like the High Point would be good as well.....not so much for hunting....but short range self protection...easier to handle keep on target than say a hand gun.

[Wise Old Owl]

Hi guys I know its odd, I don't know everything and I am here to learn from you - I never heard of teaching a say 10 year old to shoot. I am all ears. Please throw me a bone.

I made a few posts when a 4 year old walked many miles to safety after a plane crash.

[hunter63]

My kids started with BB guns even younger that that 7-8(?)...If they could work the cocking lever they could shoot.
Only with supervision at a range.....I had a BB gun range in the basement with back stop and side curtains.

I'm gonna say the .22 SS came into the picture at about 10 or 11 (?), hunter safety at 12/13 and hunting with me.....

Big responsibility, and important to teach safety very early.
They earned the right to shoot....

Then again on the other hand I know people that have no business getting anywhere near a firearm at any age.....and never will be mature enough.

[Wise Old Owl]

Well said. Thank you for reaching out...

So you started with BB. Here in PA a 22 is illegal, Yet I am repairing one. I have a grandaughter I would like to impart my knowledge.

[randyt]

Well said. Thank you for reaching out...

So you started with BB. Here in PA a 22 is illegal, Yet I am repairing one. I have a grandaughter I would like to impart my knowledge.

a 22 is illegal for what? everything?

[Wise Old Owl]

a 22 is illegal for what? everything?

Uh yea welcome to liberal PA, a 22 BB gun is Illegal. When are we going to step up and say " I am mad angry and not going to take this anymore...."

now you know me.

Do you like Yuengling?

[natertot]

I have the youth model Rossi SS with changeable barrels. It primarily holds the .22lr barrel with a red dot attached and my daughter has been using it since she turned six. My son who is a little younger has been shooting it since he was 3.5, although he can't hit anything with it he still like to shoot it. I also have .22 mag and .410 barrels for when they get older.

With teaching kids this young to shoot, I don't give a crap about their accuracy. I care about instilling in the basics of safety and the fundamentals of handling a firearm. Accuracy will come with time and is secondary to safety and fundamentals. Next spring, my daughter will turn 8 and perhaps I will start working on accuracy with her then. In the meantime, I know my kids are educated and mature enough at 5 and 7 to stumble across a firearm and not get themselves or anyone else hurt.

[kyratshooter]

I fear you may be mistaking limitations on air guns, or local urban laws, with limitations on everything WOO.

My check of your state game laws states that .22 rimfire is legal on small game.

PA does have some strange firearms laws but illegal 22 rimfires are not one of them.

[finallyME]

Is this what you are talking about KYRS?
http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=
It sits almost at 7 lbs. That is too heavy, I think. I like the fact that it is .223 though. Common ammo as far as what everyone else will be carrying.

Here is the Rossi .410
http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=
I like the weight on this one, 3.75 lbs. I also like the simpleness. It is pretty easy to operate. He won't have to figure out how to clear a malfunction. Just open and load, probably even easier than loading a bolt action.

This matched pair looks good as well.
http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=
This would make it more double duty, or triple. It would work for bird, rabbit and even groundhog at distance. And then even have some more power for home defense.

One thing I don't know much about with respect to .410 is other options. I keep hearing about being able to use other handgun rounds in a .410 but haven't really done any research yet.

I guess this also brings up the question of single shot versus semi-auto. Remember that my application is home defense. But this isn't home invasion kinda stuff, but that "probably won't happen" WROL scenario where the family is defending the homestead. I guess kinda like what KYRS was talking about on the American Frontier with the kid standing by his family helping to defend the homestead. In that case, the 8 yr old isn't the sole defender. Instead the 8 yr old is just adding another shooter to the mix. A break open would be pretty reliable for him to run. There are some pretty reliable semi-autos, but even they will malfunction. Will an 8 yr old under intense stress be able to clear the malfunction? Something to think about.

As for firearm safety.... I teach the class to my own kids. That is my responsibility. I usually start around 5 and reinforce until......well forever. One thing I like about the cricket, though, is that it has a button on the bottom that I can push and then hand the rifle back to the kid and not have to watch him as carefully. I also like that it takes FOREVER to cycle, especial for a little kid. .22lr is pretty hard to come by.

[natertot]

FinallyME, This is like the one that my daughter has and that my son shoots. Only difference is I have a third barrel for .22Mag and the .22lr has a red dot attached. My Daughter since age six can work it just fine. For my Son who turns 5 tomorrow, I have to set everything up for him, then he is able to hold it and pull the trigger. This is also the same gun that Kyrat is referring to. He has one as well, but with a black adjustable stock similar to that of an M4/AR.

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/9533551

[hunter63]

Do not attempt to shoot pistol ammo in a ,410 unless it is specificity manufactured to do that....Rossi does make several models that do.
Mostly in the "Judge" series.

A 3-3/4 pound 410 is light,.... with a recoil that a child may become afraid of......Caution!....and isn't a good learner shotgun as it doesn't have a very big pellet load.

Single short rifles and shotguns to learn make beginners into shooters...only one shot, make it count.
Auto loaders make beginningg shooters ammo burners....didn't hit your target?...just keep pulling the trigger.

Learn on a SS, save your money and buy more AR's.....

[finallyME]

natertot, that is good to hear that your kids can handle it.

I really like the price of these Rossi's. I probably shouldn't have asked the question because now I want to go buy one.

Thanks H63. The more I think about it, the more I like the SS break open. I will still end up with 8 ARs.....oh wait....I need them for their spouses as well. I will still end up buying 14 ARs.

[TXyakr]

I know that a lot of people nit-pick Chuck Hawks but he has some good things to say, important to listen to his comments about how weight of firearm affects recoil. Weight of firearm also affects accuracy of second shot, when rapidly firing semi-autos for same reason. Self defense perhaps. So understandably a young person cannot hold a 6-10 lb firearm and be accurate but don't go out of you way to be super light either.

This recoil by caliber chart from Chuck Hawks is sketchy but gives you a rough outline to compare, many variable such as the particular rounds (manuf, gun powder grains, length of barrel, weight of firearm etc.) can change these numbers significantly so these are just ball park figures in his table.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

On a personal note: Over ten years ago when my daughter was at a kindergarten YMCA campout for fathers and daughters she won first place in a BB gun competition and many of the other father's actually shot for their daughters. She absolutely would not let me help her in any way, did it all herself. There were several hundred girls there. But to my disappointment she never pursued competitive shooting much further, might have won at least a small scholarship for university, a friend's kids did. She now has a good shot at academic scholarships but probably just from U of AR, OK and SMU. Arkansas likes smart kids from North TX. She wants UT or NYU but is unfortunately not that smart, probably my genetics so unlikely to can to get any big scholarships from those based on SAT scores, should have stuck it out with competitive shooting. LOL I may not be very smart but I can shoot straight ;-)

[TXyakr]

Uh yea welcome to liberal PA, a 22 BB gun is Illegal. When are we going to step up and say " I am mad angry and not going to take this anymore...."

now you know me.

Do you like Yuengling?

It is very important to know the laws in your state, county and city. But I could not find this .22 air gun law online for PA.
I did see where it is illegal to allow a person under the age of 18 to use one without the direct supervision of an adult, that is unfortunate for kids in Pennsylvania, but good for street lights, car windows, and songbirds, a bummer for kids learning to hunt small game responsibly. lol

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...tn=4&subsctn=0

In many of the suburban cities of North Texas and I assume throughout the USA and the world it is illegal to shoot an firearm, air gun such as .177 or .22 or bow and arrow. Only soft air is permitted which IMO are worthless even for target practice. May explain the over population of tree rats and rabbits and why so few kids can shoot these days. Also in some Army Corps parks near me they do not not allow air guns or firearms only bow and arrow, absolutely nothing in State Parks during regular season. No air guns in most gun ranges, so you are left with private rural land and WMA etc. Fine with me and my kids but I am concerned with millions of other kids who may not have these options. They get to the military and cannot shoot jack squat, point rifle every which way but down etc. etc.

How exactly do you interpret this for PA?

Title 18 Section 6304 (c) Exceptions.--
(1) Nothing in this section shall make it unlawful for
any person under 18 years of age to have in his possession
any air rifle, if it is:
(iii) used in or on any private grounds or residence
under circumstances when such air rifle can be fired,
discharged or operated in such a manner as not to
endanger persons or property, and then only, if it is
used in such manner as to prevent the projectile from
transversing any grounds or space outside the limits of
such grounds or residence.

[Rick]

I am teaching my grand kids to shoot as well. When I started with them they were 10, 9,9, 6 and a toddler. The toddler hasn't started of course. The other 4 were drilled on safety rules until they could recite them on command. If I asked what rule number 3 was and they had to think about it then it was not time for them to start shooting. That aside, why are you restricting them to only rifles? Often it isn't the weight but the length that gives them a problem. The should becomes a fulcrum point so the weight is amplified by the length. A handgun solves that issue even though it has it's own set of problems.

As for the rifle, consider the Kel-Tec Sub 2000. It's a 9mm or .40, fairly short and light weight. It also folds so carrying it would offer some additional options over fixed long guns. It's not a nail driver but has good accuracy and is fun to shoot. Depending on the type of grip you purchase you can use Glock, S&W, Sig or Beretta mags. Mine is in 9mm and I chose the Glock grip so I can use 30 round mags with it.