"Alone."

[NightSG]

Alan WAS a good choice he whined the least on camera.

If they'd shown his wife before, I'd have bet on him wanting to get home a lot sooner

[WalkingTree]

I see that History's site lists the original items from which they had to choose. Was that there before? Makes me wonder if I was just blind. (looks like more than 40 though)
Anyway...so, I ask myself what would I choose, from this list, when limited to 10 and considering myself and other factors. Um...dagnabit, sure are some hard choices (choosing against an item which is good requires deep thought)...

1 - 12×12 ground cloth/tarp
2 - saw (not the bow kind)
3 - multi-seasonal sleeping bag
4 - 2 quart Pot, with lid
5 - disposable lighter
6 - canteen
7 - fishing line and hooks
8 - 5 lbs of dried pulses/legumes/lentils
9 - hunting knife
10 - small shovel

[Sarge47]

I see that History's site lists the original items from which they had to choose. Was that there before? Makes me wonder if I was just blind. (looks like more than 40 though)
Anyway...so, I ask myself what would I choose, from this list, when limited to 10 and considering myself and other factors. Um...dagnabit, sure are some hard choices (choosing against an item which is good requires deep thought)...

1 - 12×12 ground cloth/tarp
2 - saw (not the bow kind)
3 - multi-seasonal sleeping bag
4 - 2 quart Pot, with lid
5 - disposable lighter
6 - canteen
7 - fishing line and hooks
8 - 5 lbs of dried pulses/legumes/lentils
9 - hunting knife
10 - small shovel

My understanding, based on facebook posts from one of the "survivors" who tapped out early was that a disposable lighter was not allowed.....

[hunter63]

.................... Or that CBS so called Survivor show, OMG just shoot me now.

What? The Grand-daddy of all Survivor shows?......Which the chicks in bikinis and all......?

I like that show........

[NightSG]

My understanding, based on facebook posts from one of the "survivors" who tapped out early was that a disposable lighter was not allowed.....

That must have changed; I can't imagine actual survivalists not realizing that, while a ferro rod may spark thousands of times, in poor conditions, you may need hundreds of strikes to light anything. The butane lighter's one handed activation and sustained flame makes it a clear winner in my book. I keep at least three in different parts of the bug out bag, including tucked inside both the little Stanley pot and the GI mess kit where they're extremely unlikely to be crushed or have the button held down until they're empty. (One of my assistant scoutmasters smoked, back in the days when that wasn't grounds for lynching on a Scout trip, and would carve a little wedge to go under the button on each lighter specifically to keep them from being drained accidentally.)

That said, I do have a magnesium/ferro block, two waterproof containers of matches, and 2-3 vacuum sealed matchbooks in there as well. These give me the ability to trade fire as well as providing multiple layers of redundancy for an important task; same as carrying both the Stanley and the mess kit so I have multiple ready-made boiling containers.

Again, IMO, limiting items by count just strikes me as silly; I'd rather see "you can take whatever you can carry through this five mile obstacle course" or something similar that actually addresses realistic decision making criteria.

[hunter63]

Repeat after me...."It's TV show, ...It's a TV show...It's a TV show....."
There ya go...... repeated on the interweb 3 times , become true.....

[WalkingTree]

sarge47 - That's strange. This is what I'm looking at:

http://www.history.com/shows/alone/a...ohibited-items

limiting items by count just strikes me as silly; I'd rather see "you can take whatever you can carry through this five mile obstacle course" or something similar that actually addresses realistic decision making criteria.

When thinking of how I'd design a show, one thing I like is doing it by weight. Either a much longer list to choose from, or a long prohibited list, and the total weight of everything has to be within a certain weight, same for each person. And this keeps a bigger stronger person from being able to have more than someone else because of just letting them take whatever each can carry etc. In reality, what someone can carry obviously applies. But in reality t.v. wherein people are competing, you could go either way...even those odds, or let each one's ability to carry whatever they can carry be part of it.

[TXyakr]

There are pros and cons to every method of starting fires and in all types of environments be it on a TV show or in real life when things go bad. A lighter disposable or top of the line has the advantage of being able to start a poor quality tinder bundle because it can hold a flame to a the tinder for longer than a ferrocerium rod even one high in magnesium. Even an excellent fire board and bow drill that makes great embers/coals needs a better tinder bundle than a high powered lighter with a lot of fluid. BUT either of these a Bow Drill or a large Ferro rod will definitely outlast a lighter even the best top of the line one. Open up your lighter and look at how tiny that ferro rod is in that lighter even if you had some replacement rods for it would it last 40 days? One year of fires 300-600 fires? I don't have as much experience lighting primitive fires as I would like, and am very thankful every time I am successful but I consider a great tinder bundle to be the most important item not the actual source of the spark be it lighter, ferro rod or bow, hand or pump drill, technically these are all friction fire methods if you want to be scientific about it. A lighter generates its initial spark by friction, so does the ferro rod. Mitch goes thru this all on a Youtube video he posted, it has more demo and less blah, blah, blah than me.

BTW if I was adding items NOT on the approved list it would be a polyethylene sea kayak and paddle to catch more fish, sea critters and go visit the other men and barter with them. LOL
Some young ladies in bikinis from CBS's "fake" Survival show so dirty old men like Hunter63 would want to watch the show... That would be the ticket...

It is said that John the Baptist wore rough Camel's skin/hair clothing and ate locust in the wilderness. A survival show based on that might be interesting. Or Christ living on locust and little water for 40 days and nights in the Palestine wilderness, or Moses waiting up in Mount Sinai, well not such a good idea there Egyptian army is currently fighting ISIS in the Sinai and losing many men... best move that Challenge to Utah or Arizona...

[WalkingTree]

TXyakr -

Leaning more towards the ferro rod set initially, I wondered what kind of set it'd be and how many strikes you get. I ended up considering the wet environment and comparing getting sparks versus having actual flame...that I might use up tons of my spark-quota on one fire...and thinking that if I lasted long enough for my lighter to run out, then I should be far enough along to begin using another method like bow drilling or just being able to maintain fire that I have, rain and wind notwithstanding. If I am not in that kind of shape with fire proficiency while having lasted that long, it might be moot.

I personally like the idea of a zippo with a bottle of fluid and some replacement flints.

And some smokes to break out for those special moments. And a can of coffee. Btw, I consider things like enjoying coffee moments, etc, to have great psychological impact. When things like boredom are mentioned, I think about how you must do more than only the bare survival activities. You need to enjoy yourself. Enjoy the environment, instead of being terrorized by it. I honestly wondered if something like coffee was on their allowed list, and I wanted to find that out specifically. Gee, they had spoon and towel and comb on there.

But then...we can talk a lot about what we'd do, while needing to remember that energy (and hydration) becomes an issue - you need to do so much right in the beginning, and a person gets worn out when some of what you're needing to do is get food and water and may have not gotten that yet. It's a big hump right in the beginning, and if you don't get over that hump well right at the beginning, it almost dictates everything afterwards for a long while. That's why I consider some kind of food rations for the beginning to be important...keeping some energy until I'm established in a basic way. Water would be included in this philosophy of mine, but you need so much of it to be any good and I'm thinking that in at least this show's environment water isn't too difficult.

[TXyakr]

Best is a very large Ferro rod high in magnesium in a cold wet environment slowly scrap off bits onto a piece of driest bark you can get like inner wood (clip of Alan getting excited about it Thursday night was funny but outdoorsmen can relate). Then strike sparks onto these scapings with tinder on top, blow get smoke and a flame. It takes a lot of practice in a very wet, humid climate.

There have been many discussions here at WS about coffee substitutes in the wild. Most are not very pleasant but you can adjust to them over time. Also teas of various wild/found herbs or even leaves of various evergreen trees. Best not to over do it or your bowels may get very loose. Just enough to flavor the hot water, don't go crazy or you could dehydrate yourself sitting behind a bush somewhere. I WILL NOT admit to having ever done THAT!

Keep a record of how long a zippo lasts, good luck with that. Fine for weekend car camping folks... best to have a backup and know how to use it if you venture much beyond the safety of your automobile or ATV... extra ferro rods for zippos are tiny easily lost and break if you look at them crosseyed...

BTW perhaps the first Wilderness Survival "Show" was John the Baptist. Thousands of people from many miles around came to see this man dressed in camel skin who ate locust insects he was as Isaiah 40:3 said may thousands of years ago "The voice of one crying in the wilderness" drew a crowd. Father Abraham left the big city of Ur to go into the wilderness and live a simple life many years before that but he did not draw a large crowd so it was not technically a "show". Anyhow John the B has CBS beat by over 2000 years.

[WalkingTree]

^ See Castaway with Tom Hanks? That'd be me - dancing and chanting 'round my fire. (Best/funniest moment: "what is that?!")

Well, zippo is what I'd have if having such a thing...would stick to drilling or fire-piston when possible otherwise.

If I can acquire the ingredients, teas would be a regular thing for me. Coffee, just a good morning ritual, or for cold rainy stretches. And...out there, things taste much better. It's about context. I don't find it hard to acquire tastes ("the best spice in the world is hunger"). Living like that, rough coffee is somehow appropriate...is luxurious. Funny though, if they had coffee on their list, I'd demand that it be Columbian, or wouldn't even have it. Would rather hope to find dandelion or chicory.

[Batch]

BUT either of these a Bow Drill or a large Ferro rod will definitely outlast a lighter even the best top of the line one.

No bow drill set I have ever seen even remotely has a chance of lighting as many fires as a disposable lighter. My preferred set of willow on willow will give you two or three fires per hole in optimal conditions. Then the spindle will be through the hearth. Trying for that third coal could end up a waste of time if the spindle goes through the hearth.

You get an average of 3,000 lights from a BIC disposable. Is there a bow drill set that will give you a comparable number of coals?

[Sarge47]

That must have changed; I can't imagine actual survivalists not realizing that, while a ferro rod may spark thousands of times, in poor conditions, you may need hundreds of strikes to light anything. The butane lighter's one handed activation and sustained flame makes it a clear winner in my book. I keep at least three in different parts of the bug out bag, including tucked inside both the little Stanley pot and the GI mess kit where they're extremely unlikely to be crushed or have the button held down until they're empty. (One of my assistant scoutmasters smoked, back in the days when that wasn't grounds for lynching on a Scout trip, and would carve a little wedge to go under the button on each lighter specifically to keep them from being drained accidentally.)

That said, I do have a magnesium/ferro block, two waterproof containers of matches, and 2-3 vacuum sealed matchbooks in there as well. These give me the ability to trade fire as well as providing multiple layers of redundancy for an important task; same as carrying both the Stanley and the mess kit so I have multiple ready-made boiling containers.

Again, IMO, limiting items by count just strikes me as silly; I'd rather see "you can take whatever you can carry through this five mile obstacle course" or something similar that actually addresses realistic decision making criteria.

I stand corrected on the list, I was going by what one of the guys wrote on FB. I also agree with you on limiting items; I've made no secret about how that's one of my pet peeves!...

[TXyakr]

No bow drill set I have ever seen even remotely has a chance of lighting as many fires as a disposable lighter. My preferred set of willow on willow will give you two or three fires per hole in optimal conditions. Then the spindle will be through the hearth. Trying for that third coal could end up a waste of time if the spindle goes through the hearth.

You get an average of 3,000 lights from a BIC disposable. Is there a bow drill set that will give you a comparable number of coals?

I think I had mentioned almost 100 comments back in this thread that Mitch from this "Alone" show had a youtube video demonstrating long term fire starting tools pros and cons. Obviously a intelligent person would need to make new fire boards, spindles and bows assuming they were in a place that had useable and appropriate wood not in the middle of the sahara desert where there might not be fire wood so why bother. OH camel dung, forgot about that use your lighter to start that! LOL I heard a rumor that next "Alone" show will be there, ha ha ha. Watch out for ISIS.



EDIT: I've seen people spend 10-20 "lights" of a Bic lighter to get a fire started because they did not know how to make or use a tinder bundle properly. Also had people step on my Bic lighter while they were borrowing it and crush it, thankful it was not my only starter tool that I knew how to use effectively. And often the gaskets on a zippo will get old especially if it was left in a hot vehicle and then it leaks, no fluid you are left with a tiny ferro rod, tiny little sparks. Good luck with that. It can work but is a PITA and requires a very good tinder bundle.... My point is have options IF you venture more than 20 yards from your vehicle or for sure if you hike several days from it. NOTE: this does not apply to Hunter63 or Kyratshooter, for them just use jumper cables or some wire on the battery of your vehicle you will be fine, ha ha ha

So how many fires CAN an average casual camper start with a brand new BIC, how many people buy a new one for each and every trip? Just in case a flood, wildfire or something strands them?

[Sarge47]

I just finished reading the complete list, yeah, I'd take all that stuff, plus some. No outdoorsman in his right mind goes out into the total wilderness with only a limited amount of stuff and takes video cameras and equipment. For the record, my 1st choice of a fire starter is a long barreled butane charcoal starter. I use wood for fire-starting as well...as firewood. I also carry "lifeboat" matches, mag block, and a six inch ferro rod. Can't be too safe ya know. The regulation against water filters & purification tablets was a bonehead decision, IMO, as this caused at least one of the group intestinal distress. I do hope the producers' liability insurance premiums were current. Alan was my pick to win, however Sam surprised me. I thought he'd be one of the 1st few out. I wonder how he felt when he found out he missed it by only one spot away?...

[TXyakr]

Basically when you limit your items or circumstances (SHTF) limit them for you in real life your time spent on basic tasks increases that is why light weight backpacks and Ultralight or SUL etc. who do long distance at a fast pace look for multipurpose items.

I assume that a show like History Channel's Alone and Discovery Channel's N&A appeal to some of those minimalists, long distance trekkers but make no sense to car campers and ATV campers who spend hours packing/unpacking and loading/unloading many many pounds of gear and most of their "trail" miles are powered by petroleum. Different strokes for different folks. All that matters is that you get out there and be active. The 10 - 20 yards you putter around a campsite at a state park is MUCH MUCH better than the walk from the TV in the living room to your kitchen for more aluminum can beverages and sugary snacks. IMO

[hunter63]

EDIT: .................. NOTE: this does not apply to Hunter63 or Kyratshooter, for them just use jumper cables or some wire on the battery of your vehicle you will be fine, ha ha ha

So how many fires CAN an average casual camper start with a brand new BIC, how many people buy a new one for each and every trip? Just in case a flood, wildfire or something strands them?

That is mostly correct.....
One thing about being a smoker for a lot of years...just a fact..is a smoker may not get a proper fire going....but will ALWAYS get his smoke lit.

Batteries from your Mini Mag and spring from a ball point pen (stretched out) ...or paper clip....or foil gum wrapper....or road flare....but will get that smoke lit.

Hunter wonders around in the wilderness, cold, wet, hungry.....Rescue guy get there...Hunter says, "Hey Bud, gotta a light?"
SAR guy says "Yes, here ya go....." (lights smoke)...."Hey, you need rescue?......Hunter say, "Naw, I'm good now.....Thanks....Some body moved the truck....."

[TXyakr]

It was meant to be a challenge with emergency back up Sarge47 not a vacation trip for fun and relaxation.

http://www.history.com/shows/alone/a...ohibited-items

If I was to take a food item it would be the
1. 5 lbs of beef jerky (protein)

Not
2. 5 lbs of dried pulses/legumes/lentils mix (starch and carbs)

interesting that one person chose that.

Under Tools I wonder where the line between hunting knife and machete are crossed and might try to get by with a long knife with saw like teeth on back but no saw would be super difficult, also very difficult without an axe. So those are very high on list. Steel shovel slightly higher on wish list than dental floss lol. I have a great Cold steel Soviet Special forces style shovel and some others including a titanium trowel but often don't use them. Rule is if you don't use it on multiple trips don't take it next time, lighten your rucksack, ask any special forces or marine who has done forward missions where speed was critical. They might say "what the heck leave that at home dude."

Obviously camera gear was necessary or concept of "Alone" show would not exist. Several said how much of pain that was and they were trained on how to use it for a week or two prior to being dropped off. All these shows give you full medical shots and evaluations, I was told that very specifically by a TV producer, no reason not to believe it.

[WalkingTree]

Hey, didn't I see someone splitting a tree with a machete, or am I remembering that wrong? There is no machete on the list. That and the disposable lighter...making me think history got a little mixed up along the way or changed things.

A lighter disposable or top of the line has the advantage of being able to start a poor quality tinder bundle because it can hold a flame to a the tinder for longer than a ferrocerium rod even one high in magnesium. Even an excellent fire board and bow drill that makes great embers/coals needs a better tinder bundle than a high powered lighter with a lot of fluid. BUT either of these a Bow Drill or a large Ferro rod will definitely outlast a lighter even the best top of the line one.

TXyakr - Leaning more towards the ferro rod set initially, I wondered what kind of set it'd be and how many strikes you get. I ended up considering the wet environment and comparing getting sparks versus having actual flame...that I might use up tons of my spark-quota on one fire...and thinking that if I lasted long enough for my lighter to run out, then I should be far enough along to begin using another method like bow drilling or just being able to maintain fire that I have, rain and wind notwithstanding. If I am not in that kind of shape with fire proficiency while having lasted that long, it might be moot. I personally like the idea of a zippo with a bottle of fluid and some replacement flints.

Well, zippo is what I'd have if having such a thing...would stick to drilling or fire-piston when possible otherwise.

No bow drill set I have ever seen even remotely has a chance of lighting as many fires as a disposable lighter. My preferred set of willow on willow will give you two or three fires per hole in optimal conditions. Then the spindle will be through the hearth. Trying for that third coal could end up a waste of time if the spindle goes through the hearth.

You get an average of 3,000 lights from a BIC disposable. Is there a bow drill set that will give you a comparable number of coals?

I think that the idea here is not having to go to a store, or making do when one or the other gets broken or lost, etc. How many lights you get from the same drill is not important, but how perpetual that the drill method is. I can't make a bic lighter out in the wild. But I can make a drill. I can't make lighter fluid out in the wild, but I can make a drill. Moreover, if I had a disposable lighter, and a drill was working well, I'd save the lighter for when I really needed it and use the drill for regular purposes.

If I was to take a food item it would be the
1. 5 lbs of beef jerky (protein)

Not
2. 5 lbs of dried pulses/legumes/lentils mix (starch and carbs)

That one had me thinking - I've no experience or knowledge here. Was thinking of the jerky, biltong, and pemmican...but started considering the salt content of all of those coupled with how they are dehydrated themselves already. I imagined them sucking all the water right out of me while believing that I was keeping a calm tummy in the first few days hustling and burning energy to get some things established early.

[NightSG]

Open up your lighter and look at how tiny that ferro rod is in that lighter even if you had some replacement rods for it would it last 40 days? One year of fires 300-600 fires?

When I was a pack a day smoker, it wasn't that unusual for a Bic to last me more than a month. That's 600 fires. Even a marginal tinder bundle shouldn't need much more "flame time" than a cigarette unless it's just soaking wet.