Stolen Valor

[wilderness medic]

Another point, it is violation of Military law!

18 USC § 912 - Officer or employee of the United States
Whoever falsely assumes or pretends to be an officer or employee acting under the authority of the United States or any department, agency or officer thereof, and acts as such, or in such pretended character demands or obtains any money, paper, document, or thing of value, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

10 USC § 771 - Unauthorized wearing prohibited
Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear— (1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or (2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

Thanks, was curious if there was a law that applied to people wearing. But what exactly constitutes impersonating? NO ONE can wear it? With all the old uniforms sold at surplus places and the like, this is actually feasible?

Where do you draw the line? Nothing that was issued at any point in time ever touches a non service members skin? No kids buying old camouflage and playing "soldier" in the backyard? No hunters wearing any pattern used by the military?

Crazy that there is so much surplus gear sold so openly with it being illegal.


Something else that just crossed my mind. I would be (an am) so much more concerned with the dirt bags I referred to being in the military diluting the image and model of what a valorous solider should be, rather than some idiots on the street playing dress up. I think if anyone is "tainting or diluting" in these regards it would be the large number of people that actually make it for some not so valorous reasons/intentions being held on a pedestal. The public could see one of these "I just wanted to be able to legally kill people" type and they are praised, while they are threatening to beat up some kid that just wanted to pretend he was the valorous type lol....

[aflineman]

You need to earn it to wear it. As far as old BDUs and such, they make good hunting gear. I have to laugh at folks who are at some of the firearms competitions I go to. They have full battle rattle on, just to shoot in a fun competition. As long as they are not wearing rank, Unit emblems, and other insignia, I do not care. Gear is gear, the other stuff is earned. I am proud of the people I have served with, and the Units I have served with. I have worked side by side with folks from many Units, but I won't wear insignia from those units. Only exceptions are a couple of T shirts I have got from folks who served with a couple of units. Even then, I rarely wear then, if ever. Just because it is not me.
Same with coins. I have two separate stacks. Those I have been given, and those I earned. Just how it is.

[natertot]

WM, I don't care what the person's reason for joining is and it has no bearing on the fact that they served. Some join for money, some for education, some because their dad served, and some because that is all they ever wanted to do. Know why I joined? I joined because I was young and had no idea what the hell I wanted to do in life. (I still don't, but that is besides the point) I figured I would serve, see some other countries, gain some life experience, and perhaps figure out my calling. Does the fact that I joined up to serve because I was a clueless 18 year old mean my service is/was unworthy? I have yet to meet a fellow vet that thinks so, but I do stand in awe and have unwavering respect for those that did more.

Awards and medals are a part of the uniform and that is not semantics. I would have loved to see the look on any of my Chiefs or Division Officers had anyone they were butt chewing told them it was "semantics"! As far as wearing uniform items for leisure or whatever, that is not stolen valor. I was navy, but I have some army rain coats, jackets, socks, and pants that I wear because they make great outdoor clothes. I also know a few people that wear uniforms of loved one's. I guess it is their way of coping/remembering and is a means to draw recognition to their loved one. I have no problem with that either. Heck, my brother was about ten years old when I was in and all he wanted was a uniform that was mine he could wear. I actually tracked down a child's replica Navy Dress Blues uniform and sewed on my patches, attached my ribbons to it, and fitted the neckerchief for it. He just wanted to wear it because he was proud of his brother. What is the issue is when people wear uniforms to get recognition for service they did not do and it is usually to obtain financial reward or gain. Beggers and store discounts primarily.

I do not respect a Ranger or a SEAL more than a deck seaman or other branches equivalent. I respect them the same and have the same gratitude. They all were/are doing their job.

[wilderness medic]

You need to earn it to wear it. As far as old BDUs and such, they make good hunting gear. I have to laugh at folks who are at some of the firearms competitions I go to. They have full battle rattle on, just to shoot in a fun competition. As long as they are not wearing rank, Unit emblems, and other insignia, I do not care.Gear is gear, the other stuff is earned. I am proud of the people I have served with, and the Units I have served with. I have worked side by side with folks from many Units, but I won't wear insignia from those units. Only exceptions are a couple of T shirts I have got from folks who served with a couple of units. Even then, I rarely wear then, if ever. Just because it is not me.
Same with coins. I have two separate stacks. Those I have been given, and those I earned. Just how it is.

Outstanding post, I like it. Especially the part about the two stacks of coins.

WM, I don't care what the person's reason for joining is and it has no bearing on the fact that they served.

If you respect someone who joined because they wanted to be able to feel what it's like to kill and not get in trouble the same as someone who wanted to risk their lives to defend what they believe in, that's your prerogative. You are entitled to that opinion/feeling, I however do not share it. A criminal is a criminal, a psychopath is psychopath, regardless of serving. How is it serving if they aren't serving? They are doing it to serve themselves, no one else, plain and simple.

Awards and medals are a part of the uniform and that is not semantics. I would have loved to see the look on any of my Chiefs or Division Officers had anyone they were butt chewing told them it was "semantics"! As far as wearing uniform items for leisure or whatever, that is not stolen valor. I was navy, but I have some army rain coats, jackets, socks, and pants that I wear because they make great outdoor clothes. I also know a few people that wear uniforms of loved one's. I guess it is their way of coping/remembering and is a means to draw recognition to their loved one. I have no problem with that either. Heck, my brother was about ten years old when I was in and all he wanted was a uniform that was mine he could wear. I actually tracked down a child's replica Navy Dress Blues uniform and sewed on my patches, attached my ribbons to it, and fitted the neckerchief for it. He just wanted to wear it because he was proud of his brother. What is the issue is when people wear uniforms to get recognition for service they did not do and it is usually to obtain financial reward or gain. Beggers and store discounts primarily.

I do not respect a Ranger or a SEAL more than a deck seaman or other branches equivalent. I respect them the same and have the same gratitude. They all were/are doing their job.

You clearly are not grasping the point about the uniform. Perhaps read Aflinemans post above about gear. Or maybe you do as you're talking about NOT being stolen valor and wearing things you didn't earn. You have no problem with it or you do? Which is it, or more importantly, where do you draw the line on what is and isn't? That is why I asked where you differentiate, and said I understand more about the medals and awards (yes yes, they are PART of the uniform) maybe I should have specified which uniform. Class A's are different than surplus pants, jacket, etc. That is what I was talking about.

As for respecting them the same, good on you. That is admirable and understandable, however I did mention the publics perception normally doesn't seem to be that way.

[natertot]

You clearly are not grasping the point about the uniform. Yes I do. Perhaps read Aflinemans post above about gear. Or maybe you do as you're talking about NOT being stolen valor and wearing things you didn't earn. You have no problem with it or you do? Which is it, or more importantly, where do you draw the line on what is and isn't?I draw the line when people wear a uniform to receive recognition of service they did not do or to receive gain (beggers, store discounts) for service they did not give. I have said this. If people want to wear a uniform to honor their loved ones and bring their loved ones recognition, I have no issue with that as long as they are not taking credit for their loved ones service. Based on your standard, I should be getting bent about uniforms being worn in the movies, which I don't That is why I asked where you differentiate, and said I understand more about the medals and awards (yes yes, they are PART of the uniform) maybe I should have specified which uniform. Class A's are different than surplus pants, jacket, etc. That is what I was talking about. It doesn't matter which uniform. A person is either in uniform or out of uniform, there is no half way. If a person is wearing a uniform minus badges, awards, etc then they are out of uniform.

As for respecting them the same, good on you. That is admirable and understandable, however I did mention the publics perception normally doesn't seem to be that way.

The publics perception is "thank you for serving". Most of the time, civilians do not ask what I did, they just say thanks. On occasion I do get asked what branch I was in and maybe a story about their relative who served. The public doesn't go beyond that cause they wouldn't know what to ask or be able to understand the answers if they did. I also get the impression public doesn't want to know what vets have done in many cases.

Being in the Navy, we did a lot of ship board cleaning. I told my mom the first year or so I was in that I was a janitor which wasn't a lie by any means, but it didn't include everything I did. A lot of what I did I am not permitted to discuss anyway, so I just tell her a little about the navigation aspect of what I did.

[WolfVanZandt]

I have a pragmatic view on this. When I was an active CMA (Christian Motorcyclists Association) member, they told me to guard my colors carefully because people were actually using stolen (and borrowed!) CMA colors to build a false ID in order to con people. Also, non-CMA members were wearing them in activities that did not glorify God and could easily hurt the reputation of this ministry. The colors means something and can be used for malicious purposes. Military uniforms carry with them a message and if a non-military person wears them then a false message, which can be used for malicious purposes, can be read into it. It's like telling a lie and one that can be of little or huge import.

I wish it was just a matter of people being foolish. I've noticed that the best way off getting rid of an Internet troll is to just ignore them - following the rule, "Don't feed the trolls." People who wear military uniforms without the "right" to do so may be trolling "the establishment" and strong emotional responses simply feed those trolls. If it were that simple, I think the best response would be to simply ignore them and let them drown in their own bile (and I think that, far from being a troll, Wilderness Medic is thinking something like that - it's a rational position and he's said that he didn't think that the imposters were appropriate in doing what they're doing - but he's obviously not the enemy, so......) Anyway, it's not that simple (is anything?). There are too many complex consequences to that kind of behavior. Actually, if it becomes too common, and there's no consequences, it will become an OK thing to do, and I hope the US won't ever sink that low.

[Rick]

WM - I am not a vet but I do disagree with people pretending to be vets. When I purchase something at Lowe's one of the questions I'm always asked is, "Are you a vet?" My answer is no, of course, but how many pretend to be a vet just to get the discount? How many falsify work applications or even lie at food pantries? We had a "vet" on here that played the "poor little ole me" card. People sent him money and did things for him because they respected his "service". It's far more that just wearing a uniform. If someone has so little moral compass that they will pretend to be a veteran then their moral compass will allow them to accept civilian fringe benefits associated with that service. You guys and gals earned every benefit you are afforded and whole lot more, IMO. I detest those that lie about it to acquire those same benefits even if it's nothing more than admiration.

[crashdive123]

I'll weigh in on this.

I'm a veteran. I am not a combat veteran.

It is fairly common to see people wearing uniform parts (BDU pants or blouses). You can buy them on-line. You can buy them at gun shows. You can buy them at your local military surplus store. Wearing utility uniform parts (or whole) do not bother me. I see it in the woods and around town. This does not bother me, but sometimes makes me laugh at the ridiculous looks that some put together probably thinking they "look cool".

The only uniforms I kept were my Dress Blues and Dress Whites. I doubt they will be worn until my funeral......which I pray will be a long time from now. I have bought some BDU parts from the Navy Exchange to use while camping and hiking sometimes as they are a good option for those activities. I do have two pair of Marine Corps BDU pants that were given to me. I have not worn them - I just feel weird about them since I was not a Marine.......even though they are just a pair of pants and it doesn't bother me if somebody else wheres them for the activities I described. Just me I guess.

The attitudes of many have changed since I joined the service. Many service members were encouraged to NOT wear their uniforms in town because of how they may be treated. I entered the service just after Viet Nam, and although I was in schools for quite a while after boot camp I still heard the words "baby killer" and was sometimes treated like a pariah. Those instances did not happen to me often, but did make me sad that so many that had been told to serve (drafted) were treated so poorly.

It is really uplifting to me to see the big "turnaround" in attitudes toward Military service.

Having said all of that........ What does bother me is when somebody puts on a uniform, or falsify their military service for personal gain. Getting a discount at a store, a free meal at a restaurant, etc - while they don't affect me personally - it's stealing - period. Those that lie about Military service in order to get the job or advancement that they want - that's stealing too in my book.


As far as "outing" a fraud in a public place - I would and have. I don't make a big deal of it. They are, in my opinion disrespecting the service of others. I'm sure they don't see it that way - just trying to get something for themselves. I don't film it and follow them around. I just humiliate them a wee bit and the leave them alone. To be perfectly honest - having been retired for almost 20 years, and with all of my time in the Navy - I probably wouldn't recognize some of the uniform violations that give away their "fake service". Some are obvious, but some are not - at least not to me. They have issues that go beyond wearing the uniform.

I do applaud the efforts of those to expose the egregious cases. Don Shipley has done a lot of work in this area.

[crashdive123]

To add a little story to the above....Stolen Valor is not just done by civilians that want to be something they are not or get something they have not earned.

I was in "A" School at Dam Neck, Virginia back in the 70's. Our first day of class we were lined up in the passageway for a uniform inspection. All of us (about 30) were fresh out of boot camp and Submarine School except one. The "one" had prior military service in the Air Force. He was wearing an impressive rack of ribbons on his chest. I had no idea what they were at the time - didn't pay that much attention to them other than the number (five rows) and variety of colors.

The Senior Chief that was performing the inspection did recognize the rack and asked the young lad (he was a Second Class Petty Officer (E-5) while the rest of us were Seamen (E-3)) to step into his office. After the inspection was over the Senior Chief went to his office. We heard no yelling. We heard no screaming. After about 15 minutes the Senior Chief reappeared, clutching a handful of ribbons. We received a quick class on what each and every one of them were. Among them......Medal of Honor, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Air Force Commendation Medal and others. He was actually entitled to wear three - National Defense Medal and two others I don't recall.

He never did make it to Submarines. Within a few days he was chipping paint on an Aircraft Carrier in Norfolk as an E-4.

They didn't call it stolen valor back then, but it is not a new phenomenon.

[Wiggy]

I'll throw in my two cents as a vet.

I wear my old BDUs and even some old defunct patterns as hunting and fishing clothes, but out of respect I will not wear a current pattern from another branch or anything like that. I don't know if I have the right words for it, but I know it would feel wrong. For example, I was active duty Air Force (28th CES) so I'll wear my personal old BDUs or Vietnam era tiger stripe camo, but I won't wear ACU or Marpat. I also never wear the whole uniform like I'm trying to look like I'm still active duty or something.

As far as why people get so hot under the collar when they see someone walking around pretending to be something they aren't... I understand but I probably wouldn't point them out in a crowd. Not unless they were bragging about combat duty they obviously never saw and were really fooling people into believing it. It's just disrespectful to boast about things you never earned. In short, I really have other things to do during my day than spend it paying attention to posers.

[Sarge47]

So how do people feel about "posers?" I'm a member of the Quad Cities Magic Club, some of our members are professional clowns. One in particular is the area's Ronald McDonald as well as having another clown identity. The 2nd identity is the one that he created while attending the Barnum & Bailey, Ringling Brothers Clown School. He went on to work for their circus for a number of years. One day he heard somebody claiming that he worked as a professional clown for the same circus at the same time that my friend worked their, yet my friend knew that he was lying. He waited until the fellow dug himself in pretty deep then "outed" him in front of everybody causing him deep embarrassment. In the small town that I live in we don't get military "posers/wannabes." But if we did it wouldn't be pretty.

As far as BDU parts go I own several sets and use them when out in the outdoors. They are made very well and I find hold up longer than civilian clothing. However I always remove any insignias, rank patches, service branches, etc.! I never served and don't wish to be mistaken for a vet. I never earned the right.

[Winnie]

I have never served, but I come from a military family and it's not so much the stolen valour, but the whole idea of someone, anyone, lying in an attempt to improve their lot I find abhorrent.
The fact they do it by impersonating military personnel or fictionalising their service record is doubly obnoxious. The Military has a special place in the heart of every nation and to garner those feelings by lying is below contempt.
I'm quite certain some of these plebs have ruined the reputation of the Services in some folks eyes because of their behaviour too.

So do I find it funny? No.
And yes, I find it offensive.

[LowKey]

I live in a town pretty near a formerly active base. There are still military stationed in the area. Out of respect I don't wear anything that could be construed as active duty because stores and restaurants around here will give them a break and it is embarrassing to me to be mistaken for someone who served when I did not.

As for Stolen Valor, that is different. Perhaps it is a misnomer to call "serving" "valor" but to misrepresent having served is stealing, whether it is in receiving unearned respect, job offers or public trust. I don't care if someone wants to run around in BDUs but the minute they put on insignia or take something that they haven't earned I'd have a problem with that.

You say that no one cares if someone impersonates a doctor. I don't care if someone runs around town in a white coat carrying a stethoscope but the minute they try to practice medicine, I'd have a problem with that too. I imagine that putting on a police uniform is pretty clear cut as well.
Claiming to be something in order to prey on others is wrong.
I feel the same way about military imposters as I do about, oh, say, someone who checks the "minority" box in order to gain preferential hiring.

[wilderness medic]

Thanks for the replies. I am on track with A LOT of the last 4 or 5 replies. It's good to hear vets (and non vets as well) opinions on this and where they draw the line.

WolfZanZandt- You're right, there is no simple answer. Love the "Trolling the establishment" comment. Basically looking for the attention of everyone they can get.

Rick- Absolutely. From my first post I mentioned the monetary gain aspect. If someone is lying for a discount or receiving any type of gain I feel that's entirely different and they should be hung(Not literally). To be honest I hate the whole "poor little old me" vet card from anyone. Vet or not. I've been at Lowes or HD and seen someone going absolutely bonkers over not being able to get a vet discount on some trivial little item. Whether they were a vet or not I found that very inappropriate behavior in public.

Crash- Yes, I know what you're talking about as far as seeing them intentionally do it to try and look cool. You are right about the free meals etc. Never thought of it that way but it is stealing. I like that you'd call them out but leave it at that and not follow or record. Holy cow, can't believe that guy walked in to a bunch of servicemen with a chest full of ribbons including an MOH(!) and thought he'd get away with it.

Sarge- At first I thought you were leading up to calling Ronald McDonald a fraud and not a real clown LOL. Clown on clown violence needs to end.

That was a big part of my questions about what's what in all this. BDUs, or any other field pants are GREAT pants. I wear them for hiking, dirty yard work, etc. Makes perfect sense to remove insignia and wear them as a great set of pants or jacket. Part of the reason I tried to differentiate that is because I have seen at least one video where someone followed and recorded a guy that was wearing ACUs with no insignias, medals, or awards. He even looked like he may have been a teenager.

Lowkey- Thanks for the response, it sounds like any insignia or specific identifier is the line for you too. But as far as putting on a lab coat... There is a huge difference between putting on a coat and practicing medicine. Practicing medicine in that way is illegal and can cause great bodily harm or death. That would be equivalent to one of these "imposters" picking up weaponry and trying to actually get in combat. The same with LE. In that scenario they are impersonating someone with huge legal exemptions such as carrying a firearm, detaining/arresting citizens, enforcing law, etc. That seems a little different to me than just lying about what they've done in the past. Perhaps them saying "I was a cop" would be more in line as analogy.

[Sarge47]

Sarge- At first I thought you were leading up to calling Ronald McDonald a fraud and not a real clown LOL. Clown on clown violence needs to end.

Two cannibals were eating a clown, one turned to the other and asked "Does this taste funny to you?"

Know how to tell who's Ronald McDonald in a nudist colony? He's the one with the sesame seed buns.

Until I met Ronald,(yes, that's really his 1st name)I always thought of clowns as just silly people who threw on oversized clothing, painted their faces with cheap theatrical make up, and act funny. I never realized what all it required. The make-up alone runs hundreds of dollars. Ronald goes all over the world in his other clown identity getting involved in clowning there. While it's true that pretending to be a clown is not in the same league as impersonating a military person, the concept is the same. When I was on staff at a Rescue Mission in the early '90s I met people who tried to impersonate others. Two guys wore clerical collars claiming to be priests, one claimed that the CIA was hunting for him and that he used to be one of their assassins, some claimed to have served time at certain prisons; why anybody would make something like that up is beyond me, but those who had actually done time there were really put out about it.

I've seen older guys sitting on a street corner claiming to be vets, wearing an M-51 Army jacket with signs saying that they served in Viet Nam and needed financial help. Were they? How would I know? I met a lot of con men at the mission and learned how to recognize them. I see that everybody who responded on here to the original topic posted by WM seem to have negative feelings for those who would pretend to be military or vets. Interesting.

[Faiaoga]

It is not honest or respectful to claim to be something you are not. I inherited a number of Khaki shirts and web belts from my father, an Army officer, but would never wear any rank or unit insignia. Otherwise, military surplus clothing is inexpensive and durable - good work and outdoor clothing. I have purchased military surplus items from other countries, but remove any rank or unit identification.

As a schoolteacher, I have often worn Samoan dress for various "cultural days". I have never been accused of being a wannabe or poser because people learn that I lived in a Samoan village and had to dress that way when teaching in the village school, It seems that honest, courtesy and tact are important concepts to keep I mind. My view point, anyway.

[oldsoldier]

Okay here goes.......Yes I served. Yes %$#$@%^ people who claim to be what they're not or never was pi##es me off! Be it a military member current or PS, a LEO, FF, whatever. Yes it makes me furious when people claim they have a bronze star, distinguished service cross, what even and didn't. To me they are lower than low!


Now as for old uniforms. IF they are just that and bear no rank, name, unit designation, or any other sort of patch, flash, ribbon or anything else then I really don't have any problem with that. Quite often I wear old field uniform pants and sometimes blouses (shirts) when working outside or camping. They're comfortable and durable, as well as cheap to purchase. I even have a field jacket I wear in cold weather because it's warm and comfortable.


I guess my interpretation of stolen valor is different than some and I respect that. I see Hunters point and feelings. As well as naternot and sarges points.

[Winter]

Just saw another "stolen valor" video that was on the news and I have a question for the vets here.

Does it really bother you that much? Why? I think it is absolutely hilarious. These guys look like garbage and are obviously fake.

You won't know they're fake if you don't know the uniform. If I see a 50yo with a Vietnam Service Medal, I know he is lying. You wouldn't know anything about it.

I keep hearing all these guys on these videos "They didn't earn it." Earn what? It is a uniform, not a silver star, MOH, or any other award of valor. (Granted I know some of these guys are toting those too, but the focus always seems to be the uniform-even standard ACUS) All it takes is signing on the dotted line. I've seen straight up criminals and thugs serve, purely for a desire to "off" someone, some do it just because they are lost and need money, soldiers who are so far removed from combat they might as well be at Chuck-E-Cheese, etc.

What if i had an EMT sticker on my truck. I'm not an EMT. Did you earn that symbol or did you just sign up for a course?

Why is there so much focus on the uniform? People want to pretend, they're funny idiots to me.... Not someone i'm going to follow around town recording and harassing. I might crack a joke in front of a crowd or something but some of these videos look like harassment. If someone did that to me wether I was a vet or not I wouldn't be very nice and would tell them to kick rocks.

You just won "most lifelong civilian comment" award.



I say, let 'em dress up, if you want to embarrass them crack a joke in public. Until they are receiving compensation of some sort I don't see why people feel the need to follow them like i'm seeing. Even some threatening with violence. Especially in comments, although saying and doing are two different things...


What say you? Really that horrible and offensive?

It's extremely horrible and offensive.

You would be beside yourself if you saw a guy with a "South Pole Expedition, Lead Medic " T-shirt who was wearing EMT and medic symbols on his hat if you KNEW he was none of these things.

What I've seen is that the more one respects what someone has done, the more they are offended by people who lie about doing that thing.

Personally, I have deep respect for the warrior.

[Winter]

I could show you my DD214 or other various military records. .

A photo would suffice, or something. I've never ever heard of a vet that is OK with stolen valor.

[wilderness medic]

Easy mr jingoism lmao.

Id be besides myself?? Haha! I've already stated I wouldn't care. Why? Because people lie. Lying happens, it is not illegal. I have seen people in FD shirts and ems hats that weren't. What ever. Don't practice medicine, I don't care. You are just kind of a dirt bag for lying. I would think the person is a low life but I wouldn't harass them or want it to be illegal. Now I thy tried to actually practice medicine, of course stop them. They are not licensed for that. They can say they are all they want. I don't give a damn. I've already given examples of situations people lie about accomplishments and flaunt it, it happens.

"Never heard of a vet who was ok with stolen valor"

First off who said I was ok with it? I said it didn't bother me like it seems to bother everyone else, and I don't think it should be illegal. Several times I've said it's not right.

A photo would suffice, or something. I've never ever heard of a vet that is OK with stolen valor.

HAHAHAHA really??!! Wow dude. That is genuinely hilarious.


Who said I didn't have respect for the warrior? I wouldn't have two names permanently marked on my body if I didn't respect them. I know it's hard for people blinded by their patriotism to realize, but not every soldier thinks exactly the same We can think individually contrary to popular belief. You can have respect for the warrior and not have thin skin at the same time. Try it.


Yours truly 0:22
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xAzFjACos2E

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Want my Safeway and CPR cards too haha?