A case for the .25 ACP

[alaskabushman]

A buddy and I were talking about the difficulty in finding .22LR in our area. He jokingly said "I just need a 10/22 chambered in .25 ACP, at least I could reload it!".
That got me thinking, why not? The .25 has been around since 1908 so we're not talking about a brand new cartridge with potential supply issues (a la 17 Win super mag). We all know that when the .25 is compared to other self defense rounds like .380 or 9mm it falls very short, but I'm not talking about defense, I'm talking about a potential .22lr substitute. A plinking or small game gun that would be reliable and reloadable. I have seen .22lr Vs .25ACP ballistics before and the .25 is pretty much in the same class, but with one advantage. The semi-rimmed case of the .25 is more reliable in autoloading guns than is the .22 rimfire. I have never seen any ballistic numbers on the .25 fired from a carbine or rifle however, probably since none (or very few) exist.

Reloading the .25 would be pretty cheap, tiny bullets and small powder charges. Yes, you do have primer costs, but when a cartridge is only loaded with 3-5 grains of powder its not so bad. If you could cast your own bullets then all the better. How many little .25 cal bullets could you cast out of a pound of lead? How many rounds would a pound of powder last?

So my question is this, why cant more gun manufacturers start making long guns and more hand guns chambered for the .25? Or why wont an ammo maker roll out a line of super affordable .25 ammo? I'm not talking about REPLACING the .22lr, just supplementing it. A 10/22, single six, mosquito or some other modern guns chambered in .25 would be a viable substitute for their .22 counterparts.

Just my ramblings.

Thoughts?

[hunter63]

I am sure a lot of people have thought about alternatives, from muzzle loading .22 to squib loading of .223 rounds.......actually Kyrat has been working with the .223....subbing the .17 seems to be more ammo around, (I bought a barrel for the H&R rifle)....
These options do not solve the hand gun problem..... "the go for a walk to that back lot dump plinking round"

My concern would be that manufacture of ammo would still be a problem....although I beginning to think the .22 shortage is maybe not a shortage so much as a limit?.(just me).
So if the .22 ammo is short why would .25 center fire be plentiful?

Am I apposed to another caliber?....Of course not, ....if it fits a use, why not?

[kyratshooter]

The folks here know I do not have a great deal of .22 love in my soul. As far as I am concerned it is about useless for anything bigger than chipmunks and rats, so big whoop that it is scarce.

My primary hope is that it turns folks away from the fatalistic trend of using the .22 as their primary survival firearm.

Generally the 25acp is loaded down to about 850fps out of the little pocket pistols. A longer barrel is not going to improve that either. That's a bit slow even for small game.

I have done several .32S&W barrel builds for "off the wall" guns and I like that cartridge for these replacement type issues. The .32 allows use of bullets from 70-100 grains and will take small game well. I cast bullets and have loading dies for the .32. It is still not my favorite.

Back last year I gave up on the .22lr recovering, or availability being dependable once it does recover. This is the second .22 scare and scarcity event we have had, not the first.

I turned to the .38/.357 as my all around pest, varmint and small game round. I also have the option of using the full magnum round and taking deer sized game.

The .38 takes only a smidge more powder than the .25 and the same small pistol primer. You can use bullets as light as 100 grains but a 150gn standard load still gets you 45 rounds from a pound of lead.

I just bought 100 pounds of scrap lead at $0.75 per pound. That works out to 1.6 cents per round.

We are not even going to talk about pistol powder, that is as scarce as .22 shells. But when you reload you have more options. You can reload the 38/357 with a multitude of powders, as in whatever you can find, or you can get "factory performance" using Pyrodex or any of the other black powder substitutes. Another advantage of using an old fashioned cartridge that started off using BP.

[hunter63]

Having the BP or Pyrodex option is kind of cool.....the old becoming new again.

BTW as far as powder goes.... shot gun powder and pistol show loading charts in various manuals for the same powders.
As with all reloading....refer to a manual.

So, Ruger, how about a 10/357?
I'm a .357 fan as well.

[randyt]

I happen to have a 25 rimfire rifle that I have thought about converting to 25 acp. I have a old book called 3001 questions and answers. It is a book of questions that readers had sent in to Hunter-trader-trapper magazine in the early 1900s. Anyhoo one of the questions was about choosing between a 22 rimfire or a 25 rimfire. The writer of the column recommended the 25 rimfire.

[kyratshooter]

.25 rimfire was once a very popular round.

Stevens and H&R both offered rifles in that caliber. I have seen several of the Stevens falling block rifles in 25r, and I remember seeing one of the Stevens "tip-up" pistols in 25r.

Cartridges were still available until a few years back.

BTW, I have had some real success with cast bullets in the .223/5.56 case. I am getting .22mag performance for less money than .22lr is currently priced. It also gets plenty of range attention when you show up with a .223 dedicated to cast bullet loads. First comment you hear is usually "you don't give a crap if .22lr is not available at all!"

You can get 127 cast .22 slugs out of that $0.75 pound of lead.

[hunter63]

I happen to have a 25 rimfire rifle .............

Well..... No Ship......LOL......That does not surprise me.
Wouldn't happen to be a Stevens would it?


http://www.gunsinternational.com/Ste...1326AAD0099B68

[randyt]

It is a stevens but it a break action. May have a photo

not much of a photo but here tis.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

[ElevenBravo]

Meanwhile, 17HMR ammo appears to be more "plentiful" than 22LR... What the heck!!

EB

[natertot]

Generally the 25acp is loaded down to about 850fps out of the little pocket pistols. A longer barrel is not going to improve that either. That's a bit slow even for small game.

That is kinda what I was thinking. Then I got to thinking...... What about a .25Mag creation? I imagine something along the lines of .30 carbine scaled down. Or what about a .30 carbine case that has been necked or tapered to accept a .25acp bullet? I think that 1500-1800fps could be attainable. But then again, do we really need to reinvent the wheel?

[jaydendyck1]

I'm thinking a 327 federal bolt action would be more up my alley if we're going for a small game centerfire 32 h&r could be used for rabbits and such and 327 could be saved for when a little more power is needed. But up in Canada we still have lots of 22 so we are not really in the same boat anyways.

[SARKY]

A lot to think about.... I think that Ruger missed the boat when they didn't introduce a .41 mag and .357 version of their .44 carbine. I wouldn't mind seeing a 327 Federal version either. A .30 carbine rechambered in 7.62x25 might be viable.

[kyratshooter]

I guess no one here ever owned a .256 Magnum. .357 case necked down to .25. I had a Marlin lever gun in that chambering for a while.

You guys have not even touched on the .22 Hornet, which is still chambered in a multitude of rifles, available in factory loadings and is a very reloadable cartridge.

Like Nate was saying, reinvention of the wheel is taking place.

I have about a half dozen .22 rim fire rifles I would gladly trade for a good CZ bolt action in .22 Hornet!

In fact, I would trade them for a nice Mossberg Patrol rifle in .223!

[randyt]

The 22 hornet was my Granddad's deer rifle. I have his savage 219 in k hornet. Some time over the years I ended up with a handi rifle in 22 hornet. Before that I had , of all things LOL. A SMLE that was converted to 22 hornet. I agree with all the current loadings, obsolete loadings and wildcats over the years it is reinventing the wheel but it's all in good fun.

[hunter63]

One must keep going....Thinking, buying, trying and building.......
It will be a sad day when you have to say....."Well that's all of them, I guess I have to quit buying/building new caliber guns........"

[kyratshooter]

There is also the prospect of NEW POWDERS that are available today and were not when some of the old wildcats flopped.

Many folks do not realize that the military tried to neck the .30 carbine case down to .22 and had no success due to lack of velocity obtainable in the small case using the powders of the late 1940s.

They had to create the larger capacity .223 before they could break 3,000fps to get the performance they desired.

Just imagine, we might have skipped the M16 and simply rebarreled and restocked the existing 8,000,000 M1 carbines and changed history, if a suitable powder had been available.

[Seniorman]

" ...Then I got to thinking...... What about a .25Mag creation?

Do you mean such as the .250-3,000 Savage??

S.M.

[hunter63]

.225 Win?. .......FYI, .25-250 kicked the .225 in the market early 1960's.......

[kyratshooter]

Do you mean such as the .250-3,000 Savage??

S.M.

I think Nate is considering a .25acp loaded to "magnum" levels.

In the .25 ACP that would be an over max load in a rifle with a heavy breech in the attempt to reach over 1000fps with a 35 grain .25caliber bullet. It would all have to be hand built or custom made at a very high price.

Sounds like a lot of work to me.

Back before everyone settled on the .22 caliber as the place to be in both rimfire and centerfire mode, they came up with the answer to this problem. It was called the .25-20.

It was the next step up from those .25 rim fire rounds RandyT was talking about and was developed back when they were still popular, the 1890s.

Basically, it took the same 50 grain .25 caliber bullet of the .25acp and zipped it up to 1500-2000fps, just like Nate is wanting.

It was available in a rash of single shots, Winchester and Marlin rifles, the Savage 99 and Colt SSA and S&W M&P pistols. It was very popular back in the day.

[randyt]

I want a 25-20 in a long gun, if memory serves there may have been a few bolt actions and some slide actions available in 25-20. Why don't I have one yet?