Patterning shotgun

[kyratshooter]

Measuring and gauging is also deceptive.

Choke is not a measure on the gun, it is a measurement of performance at the target.

It is just like the measurement of horsepower in a vehicle. What is written down is only a hint of what the vehicle might accomplish. You also have the difference between brake HP and HP at the wheels!

This inability to measure and declare is almost incomprehensible to the modern person. You actually have to shoot a shotgun at 40 yards, draw a 30" circle around the most dense section of shot, count the pellets inside the circle and divide by the number of pellets in the load.

That will give you percentage of load in pattern and from that %%% the label of the choke is determined.

Your choke might be labeled full and give only modified pattern or it might be labeled IC and give modified pattern. Or as in my case, the barrel is straight cylinder which should give 40% and I only get 30%.

In the old days almost every single shot shotgun came with a full choke. (65-70% pattern) These were general purpose guns used for everything and when the government mandated steel shot for water fowl the industry had to change. Steel shot does not compress and will ruin a full choke.

Now the choke provided as standard is Modified. Not because the modified choke has changed, but because the ammo has changed.

Modified choke gives 60% pattern and used to be the favorite for those Midwestern pheasant guns. Back in the day most double barrels were bored full/mod unless special ordered.

It was only in the deep south, where quail were shot over pointing dogs, that the improved cylinder was preferred. Those shots were at very small birds, using #8 shot, usually inside 30 yards. That kind of hunting is now almost an extinct sport, transferred to the skeet and sporting clays range.

Why was the standard set at 40 yards???

Mainly because hunters use their shotguns at longer ranges than mall ninjas and computer gamers.
Because pheasants tend to jump from under your feet and get about 40 yards down range before you snap the shot!
Because that is a good range for ducks and geese to fan out over a decoy set.
Because rabbits break and run at 20 yards and you get your shot at 40.
Because if you have a 27 yard handicap at the trap range the clay pigeon is going to be about 40 yards away before you fire.

You also depend on the choke to even out the pattern and give you good coverage across the pattern.

What one is looking for, on the paper target, is two or three small shot pellets in a spot the size of a game animal, with no holes in the pattern big enough for the animal to escape through.

Buckshot needs pellets in the kill zone of the game. The result of the target I showed is a pattern that has good percentage of hits in the 30" pattern but an big empty hole right on top of the kill zone!

When I started this project I desired to install the equal to a modified choke in the barrel of the Pardner Pump. Now my goal is to fill up that empty hole in the center and I will consider more density to the pattern a bonus.

The reason I am going to the jug choke is simple economics. I can install the jug choke with tools I have or can get cheaply. I do not want to spend any more money on this gun.

Back-boring a barrel and installing tubes is a $400 operation in my area, and installing a polychoke is about the same. Plus the only smith with real tools in my area has about a 1 year waiting list and tends to jack up his prices as you wait!

I simply can not justify spending $400 on a $150 shotgun. It would be cheaper and easier to buy an 870 barrel w/screw in chokes off e-bay. You can buy the barrel and adaptor for less than $150.

I do not even want to do that! I bought this shotgun, due to the reduced price, as a beater gun, loaner gun, or truck gun.

I have other shotguns that use interchangeable tubes and I simply do not have the need for that application. I just want a rugged shotgun that throws an even pattern of small shot or buckshot pellets.

And I also have a raft of cylinder bore barrels that I would really like to have some little bit of choke, just to even out the patterns now that I have seen those big empty spots in the cylinder pattern. I need to shoot every one of them on paper.

Unfortunately my entire plumbing system shut down on me about the time I was ready to set started, and then a storm front moved in and I am not going to get any shooting done today.

[randyt]

Awesome post Krat, thank you

[Rick]

Much thanks. Most appreciated. Follow up question. Will the shot size change the percentage on a given choke? In other words, can you improve that hole in your pattern with a different shot size?

[hunter63]

Much thanks. Most appreciated. Follow up question. Will the shot size change the percentage on a given choke? In other words, can you improve that hole in your pattern with a different shot size?

Actually that's a good question....you wouldn't think so.
Might change the number....but shouldn't change the percentage too much.....BUT

Anyone that has done any work on shotguns can tell you that each shot size, for each brand may or may not effect the actual results.
A new shot gun, when you used to buy it you would specify your choice of chokes on the barrel...or later buy the choke tube you wanted to use....select the shot size and buy several different brands.

Starting with what has worked for you in the past, and what game you are going after.....the test each combination.
The difference can be dramatic.......2 to 4 to 6 to 8.

Steel shot is even weirder......#4 lead becomes #2 steel, #2 lead is now "BB, "BBB" or "T"
Then of course the is Bismuth, Hevi Shot, or some copper coated steel or other alloys....
All in the quest for the prefect duck, pheasant, or turkey load......

Then there is HP loads....OO buck, OOO buck, #4 buck, buck and ball, slugs, Foster vs sabots.....

The LEOs show up, article in the paper..."Local terrorist has 2000 rounds of 12 ga ammo"........and you just are trying to get a decent pattern...cover the donut hole......
Oh yeah, ya missed all the 20 ga, 16 ga, .28 ga, .410.....

[kyratshooter]

Much thanks. Most appreciated. Follow up question. Will the shot size change the percentage on a given choke? In other words, can you improve that hole in your pattern with a different shot size?

Changing the total pellet count will not change the %. That part is simple math, fractions and percentages. None of that ballistic coefficient or algebra stuff. You divide the number of pellets inside the 30" circle by the number of pellets contained in the shell.

There are pellet count charts that help with that so you do not have to open and count the shot in each shell before you fire it.

http://www.supertrav.com/pelletcount1.html

What you often find is that a specific gun will pattern one shot size better than another, or it will pattern a field load better than a high brass load, or will pattern lead better than steel.

Sometimes just changing powder and wad combinations in the reloading process will affect patterning. The donut in my buckshot pattern indicates that the wad might be blowing through the shot at the muzzle and I need to add a buffer, like plastic granules, inside the pellet charge. That this might be a shell problem is indicated by the fact that the small shot is very evenly distributed over the target, even though only a 30% pattern.

Same with the slugs. I threw those slug loads together at the last minute and they are home cast in Lee molds. They have done well in my rifled choke tube barrels, but I had never shot them from a completely smooth barrel with zero choke.

My next trip to the range is due to just that shell variation possibility. I patterned the shown target with #3 buck and #7 1/2 shot. I am going back with several loads including #0/#00/#000 buckshot, and #5 field loads and #5 steel just to run control tests and see if one shoots better than the other in that particular barrel.

[randyt]

How do the older style shells without a shot cup perform?

[hunter63]

The funny part of all this is you end up with a lot of factory loads that don't really work all that well......What to do?
I have actually had some 3-1/2 steel shot shells that I didn't like all that much, and left them in a ammo box in the garage.
The "brass" rusted....and I ended up tossing some out.

So when I load up for duck hunting I use a favorite #4 copper coated steel 3" for the first 2 shots...and one of the 3-1/2 as the 3rd and follow up shot.

Generally the third shot is expensive noise....and I really don't like those shells anyway.....but does throw a good pattern and a lot of shot.....so the "one lucky bb" theory takes over.

I do think that the 3 shell limit and plugged magazines is to prevent Dumas's like me form rattling thru 5 shots and burning up 2 months rent in the process.

Kyrat appears to be reloading....but even that can get expensive as shot comes in 25 pound bags, and to have a stock or 2's, 4's, 6's 7-1/2's and 8's come to 100 pounds of shot.

Not sure how steel shot comes, or for that matter buck shot, but suspect that the Lee buck shot molds are coming into play...LOL

I don't re-load 12 except slugs (Lee mold).......that's more of a trap shooters deal.....and with the different shot type being legal or not....not worth it to me.

All that being said....we used to have a sporting goods store.... long since closed...... that had several bins of loose shells...by gauge.
You could buy one or three of each, to try out.

[kyratshooter]

I am reloading only the slug and buckshot and I am casting most of it.

I have the Lee mold for both 7/8oz and 1oz slugs and I have a round ball mold for .69 caliber. The .69 round ball makes for some interesting conversations at the range!

The #3 buck in an 18 cavity mold and the 0/00/000 in double cavity molds. I also have a mold for #T, which is .22 caliber. The #T is excellent coyote medicine inside the confines of the back yard. You get about 35 of those in a 2 3/4" shell.

I am going to have to break down and shoot some of my expensive factory buckshot and slugs for this test. I usually save that for special occasions and shoot my cast stuff at coyotes, feral dogs and such.

The #7 1/2 shells from Walmart are cheaper than I can buy shot/cups/primers and powder, so I am not reloading the small shot at this point.

[Rick]

My thinking on the percentage was that a tighter pattern would put more inside the 30" circle and drive up the percentage...or vice versa. If you changed from #6 to #8 for example and it shot a tighter group without any other modifications then your percentage should go up. There would be a change in the total number of pellets in each shell of course because of size. Or..even changing brands of the same shot. You guys are way into the science of shooting. Into an area I'm completely ignorant about so I find the information quite interesting. I don't reload. A statement that is, no doubt, obvious.

[kyratshooter]

Your thinking that the tighter pattern will up the percentage inside the circle is exactly correct and the reason they send you a whole set of choke tubes to go with your new expensive shotgun.

The reason the H&R Pardner can be made/sold for $150 is that the barrel is nothing but a tube with a bead sight on the end. Swedging, boring or threading is a precision step they did not have to do, but it produces a barrel with limited capabilities which must be considered with every shot.

Barrels that fit the Pardner, threaded for choke tubes are selling individually for $130-$150. Equal to the price of the discounted down gun.

Without the choke tubes one must resort to modifying the barrel, just as I am contemplating, in order to change the concentration of shot inside that 30" circle.

Most of the producers of these "riot gun barrels" realize that their customers are not going to ever shoot a real pattern on paper and will never realize just how bad a cylinder bore barrel actually is.

"Inside the house range" the shot is still going to be a glob of lead 3"-10" in diameter, and one will need to consider it more like a rifle projectile than a "pattern of shot". That rule is standard no matter what the choke stamped on the barrel reads. (except for excessive penetration one would be just as well off with a rifle)

Rapidly reaching the outside limit of usefulness, a squirrel in the top of a tall tree is going to be relatively safe from a hunter using a cylinder bore barrel, due to the extremely thin distribution of the shot. He may walk through the holes in the spread of just take a butt burn from one or two shot.

Most modern non-shooting shotgun owners do not seem to be aware that the "Sweet spot" a shotgunner, especially a survival shotgunner, is always looking for is the place where the game does not bolt but the pattern of his weapon is still effective. Each step on the choke chart extends that "sweet spot" by about 10 yards.

What you can do with the riot gun at 25 yards you can do with a full choke at 50.

That is 25 yards worth of "game in the pot" and negates the extra good handling qualities, and every bit of the "cool factor" of the sawed off shotgun in the hands of a survival shooter.

Shotguns are the only things men have that they want as short as possible! It's a sort of inverse overcompensation.

[hunter63]

Kyrat, you are saying that the Pardner Pump you have doesn't have a screw in choke?
Quote from the H&R site>
Pardner® Pump Walnut

Our standard model that started it all. This extremely versatile shotgun has an American walnut stock, ventilated recoil pad, chrome-plated bolt and classic grooved fore-end. The vent-rib barrel has a brass bead front sight. Choose 12- or 20-gauge versions. Both accept 2 ¾" or 3" loads, are drilled and tapped for scope mounts and include a modified screw-in choke.
< quote

http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/shotguns/pardnerpump.asp

Maybe that was the reason for the great price?

Well a jug choke is no big deal....Guy says you just need a dowel a piece of sand paper and a electric drill......chuck it up, run it for an hour, and bingo....light modified.
Oh so I heard....LOL

[kyratshooter]

I saw that write up over on Bushcraft USA!

Hilarious!!!

There is really no pressure being exerted in that process and only a microscopic amount of metal removed. Everything he was saying was preceded by "someone said", "I think", "it should" and "I estimate". Everyone sure jumped right on the band wagon with him though. Only on the internet will "majority rule" take the place of actual experimentation and proving up on your results.

Yes, the discounted price was on the no frills riot gun. No vent rib, no screw in chokes, just an 18 1/2" barrel with a bead on it. I am sure it was a special manufacturer offer. The discounted price was almost $100 less than the normal price for the longer barreled screw in choke model.

About a week after I bought this one PSA offered their Turkish made pump gun for $99.95. That was a one day deal and sold out almost immediately.

I never thought I would see the day when pump guns were selling cheaper than break open single shots. Of course in the past few years single shot prices have gone stupid high. H&R should have their heads examined for charging what they do for the old style break open. What they are doing is exactly how Savage priced themselves out of the market on the old M24.

I wish Norinco would pick up that patient and start manufacturing a copy of the M24 in China! They could give us a better gun than the new Savage at 1/3 the price.

[hunter63]

Yeah, well hasn't been activity since he was called on it......Wonder who that was...(wink, nudge).....LOL
Couldn't help but tickle ya a tad.......

[kyratshooter]

I guess that did bring that thread to a screeching halt, didn'it. I had not been back to check.

I do like to throw a grenade at their strange ideas over there, every now and then.

Would you believe that when I patterned the H&R I only got a 25% pattern with #5 shot!!!

Besides the thin pattern is was also, as we say in the south, "scraggly". There were holes a possum could have walked through.

The strange thing is that when I fired the #3 buck I got better than 70%, although also "scraggly".

The Mossberg did the same thing, with 30-32% pattern with the small shot and better then 70% with the buckshot, although a ragged pattern.

So, with the buckshot I am getting full choke pellet count but ragged patterns out of the zero choke barrel, but with small shot the open choke tube is basically worthless.

I am going through a definite learning curve here.

But I have spotted the general trend and have enough control data reserved to show if I get any improvement (sure can't hurt anything!) and I have gathered the mechanical parts to start the mechanical work now.

Maybe I could call that other guy with the sandpaper over to help.

I had to repair plumbing yesterday and the law tractor went stupid on me this afternoon, so I have to fix that tomorrow. And I still have not finished the remodel project. I might be retired but life is sure interfering with my shooting time!

[crashdive123]

Look at it this way Krat....If the lawn tractor gets too stubborn you can always incorporate it into you range time.

[hunter63]

Quote>
I might be retired but life is sure interfering with my shooting time!
<Quote.
No Ship........And Crash, shooting stuff up IS fun....if it's someone else's stuff....Your own...not so much.

[hunter63]

....So the Leo's show up and say...."You have over 1000 rds. of shot gun shells here...What are you up to"?

Well. there are duck loads, turkey loads. pheasant loads, dove loads, rabbit loads, squirrel loads, deer loads, Home protection loads......the trap and sheet loads...and yeah some don't work all that well, so I just keep them.....ah.... just because.

Working with a shot gun is much tougher than a rifle or pistol......Folks....But then again you can do so much more with a shotgun.

Then you get it all figured out.....bingo, a new shotgun and start over.

[kyratshooter]

Yep, gun cranks have been working on the smoothbore trying to improve it for going on 700 years.

One day we will finally work it out!

Stuff happens and we get our priorities all messed up though. We actually put a man on the moon before we worked out a really good interchangeable choke system.

And the media and gamers get mixed up in it and people that don't shoot what they have start making declarations like they know something, all the while throwing the supply and demand system into a retrograde loop, which has been the last wave of development. Demand for the technology we worked 700 years to leave behind.

I have started learning the tell-tale signs of warning though!

When you read a gun review and the writer/blogger makes note that this or that 12 gauge shotgun "really kicks", or "is more than I can handle after a few shots", you need to just keep moving along and look for someone that has fired a 12 gauge shotgun more than once and knew what to expect. (some of us hunters, skeet/trap shooters fire several boxes in an afternoon, live through the experience and show no marked damage from the effort!)

Second tell is the declaration that "all testing was done at 20 yards" and justifying that as the "maximum practical range for a shotgun". Specifically followed by the declaration that you will never get a shot more than 20 yards inside the house. (a survival oriented person is not going to feed himself/family shooting at things inside the house!)

The third tell is the use of the word "COOL" in respect to the shotgun. The word tactical is also an alert as well as mention of the sound of racking the slide as a deterrent or "looking down that imposing bore".

I might include #4 being when they mention choke followed by the words "you don't need it for most shotgun uses" or "It will not matter at the ranges we will be working".

Run away, run fast, run far!

Quoting the famous phrase from this very forum; "The only way those guys could feed themselves with that gun would be if they used it to hold up a supermarket!"

At any rate, the work starts this evening. I must go to town and buy a can of cutting oil, needed to enhance the project.

I think I will proceed on both barrels at the same time. I was originally worried that I might screw up the performance on my first efforts, but the targets have shown me that I should not be worried about that. The only place I can go is forward.

[Rick]

Once in a while I land on some site while doing a search in which someone has asked a question about the performance of a particular weapon. There are generally five or six posts in reply explaining some of the most oddball stuff I've never heard of. Then I realize it's a gaming site. Little wonder more and more folks are buying up the "cool" stuff that doesn't necessarily work all that well for what they want. They are trying to bring game knowledge to the real world.


Turning weapon over and looking at it. "Yeah, but like for real, dude. Where's the reload icon?"

[hunter63]

The term "Shottie" does grate my behind.......don't know why.....