plumbing and freezing

[kyratshooter]

Quick question.

I am doing some remodeling and need to run new plumbing for washer. There is some danger of freeze up in winter. Especially winter like we had last year. I had things freeze that never froze before.

Will a PVC pipe freeze and burst quicker than a flexible standard washer hose?

[natertot]

I would say yes. I worked for a concession company for about five years. Every year, we had to winterize the concession trailers for the winter. My boss was against using anti-freeze in the systems because it would cost too much and insisted everything be drained. For the first two years, I went with it but kept track of the cost of the repairs for both labor and materials the following springs. Both years, pipes froze and cracked all over the place but the hoses rarely had an issue, although there were a couple. The third year I showed my boss that the cost of repairs for the previous two years were nearly ten times the cost of anti freeze. He permitted me to use anti freeze in half the trailers as an "experiment". The following spring, none of the anti freeze trailers had damage and were ready to begin business within hours of flushing the systems. The other trailers required extensive repairs as always. The last few years, it was anti freeze everything.

In all that, I always saw pvc crack and break, particularly in the jointed areas. I think I might have seen maybe two hoses burst from freezing, but they were older and kinda wonder if condition had a bit to do with it. We used food grade hose which has a plastic lining on the inside. I don't know if they makes a difference either. Just some thoughts. Dunno if it helps.

[Rick]

I concur with natertot (that just spoiled my whole day). The PVC is rigid and will not give. The washer hose should expand slightly. HOWEVER, I have not tested this. That's just my opinion. I would suggest heat tape.

[hunter63]

You are talking in the wall right?....Outside wall?
Heat tape won't hurt.......might want to make it accessible thru a panel, or cover the wall with a panel that can be removed if it's gonna be really cold.

Look into PEX, flexible water lines.....Takes a hit better than PVC, copper, and CPVC.
Did my cabin in PEX and although I do drain it down for winter.....I know I don't get all the water out....haven't had a problem

I love this stuff....

http://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/how...tem/index.html

[randyt]

wirsbo brand pex specifically is the toughest pex on the market.

[natertot]

I concur with natertot (that just spoiled my whole day).

Which made my day worth while!

The heat tape is a good idea. My moms place has the heat tape. She double checks it every fall and it has been quite successful. Although, because it is warm, certain critters will find that appealing and sometimes chew. Mice, in particular.

[randyt]

I use frostex heat cable, it's tough stuff.

http://www.pentairthermal.com/produc...432-17783-1024

[Rick]

Hey, Kyrat, it goes on the outside not the inside. Just sayin'.....

[Old Professor]

If you are draining a pipe for the winter, as I do for the water line between my house and garage, I not only drain the pipe but use an air compressor and blow out the pipe as well. It seems to remove that last amount of water that collects in low spots and bends.

[Batch]

I'll have to find out what they use down here in South Florida. Because we have never had the problem.

[Rick]

You probably haven't had -20 either.

[hunter63]

I Louisiana they give wind chill temps for 50's......and what hour that it will freeze over night.....

[Batch]

You probably haven't had -20 either.

Not probably. We get together once a year to celebrate winter. We grab a beer and toast and then when we are done with our beer we go back to summer. Our absolutely coldest temp last winter was 43 degrees. That same day probably hit the mid 60's. I think I would like the snow though.

[kyratshooter]

This is a remodel. I am moving the utility room to the end of the house.

It will be a single cold water line going 20 feet and I am running it through a panel on the inside of the inside wall. Actually building a box around the pipe and the electric line to the dryer.

I am not worried about it freezing until it enters the utility room, which will not be heated.

In the past I have had no problem with freezing in the utility room and the residual heat from the house kept me safe. There could be snow on the ground outside and -10 and the utility room stayed 45-50 degrees.

Last year was different, with our -30 temps and the line froze slightly on one occasion before I caught it. No damage done but I do not want to push things.

I think I will insulate the pipe and if the temp is going to bottom out I will put a space heater in the utility room. Heating that room for a couple of days in the winter will not break the bank and would be cheaper than replacing pipe and repairing the water damage.

I just need to remember to shut off the whole line if I decide to go on that cruise to Belize next time I see snow.

[crashdive123]

Krat - with the pipe being insulated and only the occasional threat of it freezing, a lamp with a 100 watt bulb (you can still find them) instead of a space heater, near the line should be OK.

[kyratshooter]

Under normal circumstances that would be true Crash, a light bulb would do the job.

Problem with last year was there was nothing "normal" about it. I had the same line freeze inside the house because there was a single stud wall section of the wall where I had failed to stuff insulation properly for the bottom 6 inches at the floor. The pipe was inside the house but behind the bath tub. I was forced to remove the access panel and put a space heater under the tub to thaw the pipe.

[Rick]

Depending your remodel you might consider a water shutoff to the washer inside the house. I don't know what material you are going with but the brass shutoffs can be purchase with a drain or bleeder so you can drain the water out of the pipe going out to the washer

[hunter63]

In this case the problem with a washer isn't a big one as far as freezing goes....but is a consideration at my cabin where the heat is off all winter,.....there are actually winterizing instructions as washers don't drain ALL the water out.

[JPGreco]

Pex is supposed to be able to withstand a complete freezing, however, I would be very suspect of the connection points, as they are still copper and pinched metal. The tube itself may not break, but I would not trust it to not loosen the connection point, if not push itself completely off the connection point. Just my opinion from observing many many plumbers run Pex, as I'm a carpenter myself.

[kyratshooter]

Time for an update. No we have not had a test freeze. Almost that good though.

I ran the PVC 25 feet to the back room. Shut the water off at the meter to do the glue up.

I needed to hook up the new section and I also wanted to place a couple of ball valves in the line so I could shut off sections of the house for any future work or such.

I did these simple installations and reading the can I saw that the glue needed two hour cure time before the pressure check. I decided that if 2 hours was good 12 would be better so I went to sleep with the water shut off.

Ran outside to turn the water back on for the obligated coffee and morning shower and when I reached the front door I actually heard one of the fittings turn lose with a BOOM!

I stick my head in the door and water is everywhere!! I run back out and shut it off again but in that 30 seconds I have flooded the entire front half of the house!

After inspection I realized that it was not one of my new glue ups that had exploded. Apparently I had a faulty connection in the original system that had been waiting to turn loose for a few years and picked the return of pressure from the main line as the time to let go.

It could have been much worse. It could have let go while I was on a trip or gone to town for the day.

As it turns out all I had to do was use every towel in the house to mop up the mess install a couple inches of new PVC and wait two more hours for water.

Homesteading; the great adventure!