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Thread: Survival: Food Hoarding May Be Illegal......NO?....Check this out:

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    Default Survival: Food Hoarding May Be Illegal......NO?....Check this out:

    Special to The New York Times.

    May 30, 1918, Thursday

    If you don't think food hoarding can be made illegal, you've got to read this archived NY Times report from 1918;

    NAVY MAN INDICTED FOR FOOD HOARDING; Medical Director Nash Had Tons of Food Supplies Stored in His Home. WIFE IS ACCUSED ALSO She Inherited a Legacy and Couple Invested Heavily to Forestall Any Food Shortage.



    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...639C946996D6CF


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    Big brother has been around a long time and is always getting bigger. FEMA has some scarey powers should a disaster be declared and we saw in New Orleans how well they are run.
    Any goverment big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have...T Jefferson

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    Of course it can. So can owning gold and silver.......ahem.
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    What gold and silver? Where is the evidence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BraggSurvivor View Post
    Special to The New York Times.

    May 30, 1918, Thursday

    If you don't think food hoarding can be made illegal, you've got to read this archived NY Times report from 1918;

    NAVY MAN INDICTED FOR FOOD HOARDING; Medical Director Nash Had Tons of Food Supplies Stored in His Home. WIFE IS ACCUSED ALSO She Inherited a Legacy and Couple Invested Heavily to Forestall Any Food Shortage.



    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...639C946996D6CF
    Is that law still on teh b00ks?
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    The short answer is YES, in a roundabout way. Executive Orders have to be written.

    Executive Orders (EO) have been used by presidents since the days of George Washington. The first EO addressed Washington's normal household expenses which ones were be accepted and paid by the Treasury Department. Pretty innocuous. The FBI was formed under an executive order by Teddy Roosevelt on July 26, 1908. The first time it was used to make a law was in 1916 by President Woodrow Wilson. It was said to be an 'emergency' measure and Congress was encouraged to validate it. They did and now the door was now open to ignore the Constitution. This is the same method used by Franklin Roosevelt in 1933 to close all the banks in the country. Americans were ordered to turn in all their gold to local banks.

    The general purpose of an executive order is to provide the President with a mechanism for executing laws passed by Congress, not control of lives. These EOs are issued by the President as directives to agencies responsible for implementing laws.

    Since the U.S. Constitution places responsibility for executing laws in the hands of the President, issuing EOs is an appropriate means of carrying out the responsibilities IF they are within the bounds of the Constitution. President Kennedy, during his short time in office, signed into law 214 Executive Orders. Numerous Kennedy EOs have brought about positive changes for the American people such as:

    11063 - Equal Opportunity in Housing

    10914 - Food Distribution to Needy Families

    11022 - Council on Aging

    11925 - Equal Opportunity in Employment

    These Kennedy EOs have a distinctly different flavor though aimed at preserving individual rights, not usurping them. Many EOs overstep Constitutional authority and consequently, are an exercise of unconstitutional power.

    So Where Do Anti-Hoarding Laws Come In?

    These ideas of anti-hoarding legislation may have stemmed from two areas of confusion:

    First is from Executive Orders in place dating back to 1939 which Clinton has grouped together under one order, EO #12919 released on June 6, 1994. The following EOs all fall under EO#12919:

    10995--Federal seizure of all communications media in the US;
    10997--Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private;
    10998--Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment;
    10999--Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports and water ways;
    11000--Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires;
    11001--Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private;
    11002--Empowers the Postmaster General to register every single person in the US
    11003--Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft;
    11004--Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish forced relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as "unsafe," establish new locations for populations, relocate communities, build new housing with public funds;
    11005--Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, both public and private;
    11051--Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis (FEMA will be in control incase of "National Emergency").

    These EOs are not aimed at anti-hoarding but rather at seizure or confiscation of items and facilities "to provide a state of readiness in these resource areas with respect to all conditions of national emergency, including attack upon the United States." You'll find most 'seizure' legislation ends with this phrase. These Executive Orders don't define what specifically constitutes a national emergency and maybe this is as it should be. The specifics on hoarding are left up to the individual states.

    What Is FEMA's Role?

    EO #11051 is interesting; it authorizes FEMA near-total power in times of crisis. There's been lots of discussion on the Internet regarding the excessive control FEMA has been granted and it was pointedly commented upon in July's world premiere movie release of the "X-Files".

    FEMA was created by President Carter under Executive Order #12148. Its legal authorization is Title 42, United States Code 5121 (42 USC Sec. 5121) called the "Stafford Act." During activation of Executive Orders, FEMA answers only to the National Security Council which answers only to the President. Once these powers are invoked, not even Congress can intervene or countermand them for six months.

    Many people have balked about FEMA's extensive authority, but think about it, what other agency has the manpower to cover and implement aid? As it is, FEMA still does not have the manpower to control every city all over the US in times of crisis. Chances are they would only be dispatched to larger metropolitan areas where more crowd control might be needed. Lots of people suggest darker reasons for their existence, but this site is only addressing anti-hoarding legislation, nothing else.

    EO #11051 covering "economic or financial crisis" certainly would have terrorism implications as well. An emergency does not have to be defined as another Hurricane Hugo or massive Midwestern flooding.

    State Legislation's Role in Anti-Hoarding

    The other area where anti-hoarding confusion might have arisen is state legislation. Most states have chosen to enact their own anti-hoarding laws. That means some states may not have such laws, others do and not all are uniform. However, uniformity of state law is something governors are striving for under the Interstate Compact Agreement. The Compact Agreements, much like Executive Orders for the president, really don't require voters' input. They are law if the legislature doesn't object, much like Congress that has 30 days to object to an EO before it becomes law.

    At times of "declared emergencies", each governor cedes (gives over) authority of his/her state to the federal government. When a governor declares it for his state, he becomes the delegated representative of the federal government according to an Interstate Compact Agreement. Bottom line, even though federal legislation does not directly address anti-hoarding, goods can be seized if national circumstances are felt to warrant it whether or not amounts stored are deemed excessive in your state's eyes.

    How Can I Find The Legislation for My State?

    Since these anti-hoarding laws are not federal in nature, one would need to look at Titles for his/her own state. These statutes should be located under Public Safety laws or titles. For specific URLs go to State Legislation Locator. To locate information for your state, look for laws about:

    Blood Typing
    Disaster Preparedness
    Emergencies
    Hoarding
    Injections
    Martial Law
    Militia
    National Guard
    Public Safety or Public Welfare
    State Militia
    State Police Force
    Hawaii As A Specific Example of Anti-Hoarding

    For Hawaii, this information will be found in Title 10 under "Public Safety". It is located after legislation on militias, state guard troops, etc. Then you find the jewel... In Hawaii you are considered a "hoarder" if you have more than one week's provisions on hand BUT you have to dig to uncover this information. Here is a specific example:

    "HAWAII REVISED STATUTES REVISED 1997, Title 10:

    (1) Prevention of *hoarding, waste, etc. To the extent necessary to prevent hoarding, waste, or destruction of materials, supplies, commodities, accommodations, facilities, and services, to effectuate equitable distribution thereof, or to establish priorities therein as the public welfare may require, to investigate, and any other law to the contrary notwithstanding, to regulate or prohibit, by means of licensing, rationing, or otherwise, the storage, transportation, use, possession, maintenance, furnishing, sale, or distribution thereof, and any business or any transaction related thereto."

    OK, So If I Hoard, Then What?

    Again using Hawaii's Titles as an example, any items in excess of what legislation has deemed appropriate to store (in Hawaii's case any amount over 1 week) is subject to forfeiture and may be confiscated, ordered destroyed or may be redistributed for public use. See exact text below:

    "128-28 Forfeitures. The forfeiture of any property unlawfully possessed, pursuant to paragraph (2) of section 128-8, may be adjudged upon conviction of the offender found to be unlawfully in possession of the same, where no person other than the offender is entitled to notice and hearing with respect to the forfeiture, or the forfeiture may be enforced by an appropriate civil proceeding brought in the name of the State. The district courts and circuit courts shall have concurrent jurisdiction of the civil proceedings. Any property forfeited as provided in this section may be ordered destroyed, or may be ordered delivered for public use to such agency as shall be designated by the governor or the governor's representative, or may be ordered sold, wholly or partially, for the account of the State.
    Last edited by BraggSurvivor; 04-04-2008 at 04:48 PM.

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    Bragg;

    First off that was during WWI, so special restrictions (i.e. RATIONS) apply.
    Second, he was enlisted. So of course he's not allowed to use his position to hoard food.

    Anyone can hoard as much food as they want as a noncommissioned citizen in peacetime. Likewise if war or your favorite SHTF pastime occurs, no action can be brought against you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch.chesney View Post
    Bragg;

    Likewise if war or your favorite SHTF pastime occurs, no action can be brought against you.

    That's a bet I wouldnt wager.

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    Essentially, doing anything to save yourself and yours is potentially illegal. You are either already a criminal, or will be as the laws are changed. Best to get your mind around that concept now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BraggSurvivor View Post
    That's a bet I wouldnt wager.
    So let me get this straight...
    According to you, if I had the foresight to load up on (hoard) nonperishables and then TSHTF, I could have some legal action taken against me? No, unless you live in some communist or dictator-led country, you're safe.
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    Default so who knows?

    Unless the jackboots are coming around kicking in doors (and if you're one of those coming through my door, it isn't real smart to be the first one, ok?) who's going to know that you have food hoarded? Not like you put up a hiway sign that says..hey looters and foragers free groceries at the end of this road..
    some fella confronted me the other day and asked "What's your problem?" So I told him, "I don't have a problem I am a problem"

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    Safe from what mitch? If SHTF, nobody is safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trax View Post
    Unless the jackboots are coming around kicking in doors (and if you're one of those coming through my door, it isn't real smart to be the first one, ok?) who's going to know that you have food hoarded? Not like you put up a hiway sign that says..hey looters and foragers free groceries at the end of this road..

    It's dangerous having a stockpile of anything. All you need is someone, even your child, making a slip of the tongue. Then the word spreads like wildfire. Sure you may have guns, but UNCLE SAM always has more guns.

    This case sounds like further argument for having property in another country (that isn't involved in a war or martial law).

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    lol, your point was summed up nicely "It's dangerous having a stockpile of anything."
    I'd much rather not stock up on supplies, removing whatever risk you are manifesting, and instead be a highway robber because it's 'not dangerous'. :P
    Trax makes a good point, noone knows you have more stuff than them and even if they did, "uncle sam" isn't worried about "john q" in the mountains, and certainly aren't going to storm your house.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BraggSurvivor View Post
    It's dangerous having a stockpile of anything. All you need is someone, even your child, making a slip of the tongue. Then the word spreads like wildfire. Sure you may have guns, but UNCLE SAM always has more guns.

    This case sounds like further argument for having property in another country (that isn't involved in a war or martial law).
    .........or posting pictures of your nice new shelves in your garage to store another years worth of food.
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    Mitch - In theory, Bragg is correct. It's a long part of our own history and doesn't stop at our borders. We confiscated places during the French and Indian and Revolutionary Wars as well as the Civil Wars. It might have been a place for the men to sleep or supplies to feed or otherwise maintain the welfare of the troops. Ask the Brits about American servicemen staying in their homes during WWII.

    The government (and the states for that matter) have dominion over everything in a time of "need". Yes, they could take your supply if it was needed to feed troops for examples. But it's not something I would lose sleep over.

    Bragg - I wish all U.S. citizens had as clear understanding of how we work as you seem to.
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    Rick made a good point and I wanted to mention something like it earlier. Agree or disagree with Bragg on this, but you have to admire the amount of homework he's done.
    some fella confronted me the other day and asked "What's your problem?" So I told him, "I don't have a problem I am a problem"

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    Quote Originally Posted by trax View Post
    Unless the jackboots are coming around kicking in doors (and if you're one of those coming through my door, it isn't real smart to be the first one, ok?) who's going to know that you have food hoarded? Not like you put up a hiway sign that says..hey looters and foragers free groceries at the end of this road..
    First, second, third... It ain't real smart to be one of the ones still standing there after the I.E.D. was tripped.
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
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    Oh, jeese. I forgot to mention the Japanese Americans during WWII as well. Lawful, American citizens that were stripped of property and possessions and interred without due process. You'll notice that German and Italian Americans did not suffer the same fate. Governments, all governments, hold that extra ace up their sleeve.

    Can you say Guantanamo?
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    I agree with that. I think knowledge is power. Look at your own workplace. How many people complain because someone got some perk and they didn't? I'm sure everyone here can site some example of that. And this at a time when nothing is at stake other than some stupid perk. What would happen if people were hungry or thirsty or cold? Remy is right on the mark.

    I should also have mentioned the law of eminent domain that gives the feds, states and even corporations the power to take your land for the common good. To build a substation, a road or even a lake. That occurs in this country, more or less, on a daily basis somewhere.
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