Zimmerman trial question for Ken

[2dumb2kwit]

How can the judge allow Zimmermans school records and past employment application records be used to show him as a cop wanna-be, but not allow Martins records that show his thug ways?

[Ken]

How can the judge allow Zimmermans school records and past employment application records be used to show him as a cop wanna-be, but not allow Martins records that show his thug ways?

It goes to the issue of "motive." He can admit the records so long as he makes two findings of law. First, that the proffered evidence is relevant. Second, that the probative value outweighs the prejudicial effect. Zimmerman can then offer evidence to refute what the records suggest.

In the case of Martin's records, his "thug ways" may not rise to the level of admissibility, and he's not around to refute anything the records could suggest. However, Martin's "thug ways" (his propensity for violence, if any) would likely be relevant and admissible if Zimmerman had been aware of them before the confrontation took place. In this case, there is no evidence that Zimmerman even knew Martin. Martin was not doing anything wrong or aggressive - he was walking home.

But let me ask you this: if you were walking on public streets, minding your own business, and became aware that someone was stalking you, and that person continued to stalk you, in the dark, would you have a reasonable apprehension that the stalker may intend to cause you harm? Under the circumstances, at least until the point of the actual confrontation, Zimmerman was clearly the aggressor.

Anyone carrying a firearm should try to AVOID unnecessary confrontation to eliminate the possibility of exactly what happened here. There are numerous legitimate reasons to use a firearm. Killing an unarmed man because an incident you caused escalated into something more is not one of them, even if you got punched in the face for stalking someone and placing them in fear for their life. The facts suggest that Martin was in fear of Zimmerman. Obviously, that fear was justified.

I'm not following the trial closely, but from what I've read, the judge has given the defense A LOT more leeway than we get in Mass.

[2dumb2kwit]

The ability to refute the impressions of past actions is what I was missing. I hadn't thought of that.

As for the trial, at first, my thoughts were that both of them made bad decisions that escalated a bad situation into a deadly one. The more of the trial I see (I'm not watching every minute of it, though.) the less fault I see as Zimmermans.

[Old GI]

Another question: I understand Zimmerman's parents are not allowed in the courtroom because they are on the witness list. Martin's parents have been in the courtroom the whole time. What happens if one or both of Martin's parents are called as witnesses (they must not have been on the original list or they would have been barred as well). What am I missing?

[Ken]

Another question: I understand Zimmerman's parents are not allowed in the courtroom because they are on the witness list. Martin's parents have been in the courtroom the whole time. What happens if one or both of Martin's parents are called as witnesses (they must not have been on the original list or they would have been barred as well). What am I missing?

Witnesses are sequestered in the great majority of trials. I can't conceive of the judge allowing either of Martin's parents to testify, given the fact that they've been sitting in the courtroom.

[Ken]

I'm watching the trial now. I cannot believe how incompetent the prosecution is. Without any objection, Zimmerman's expert witness on "self defense" has been allowed to testify to a number things far beyond his scope of expertise.

It seems like the prosecution, defense, and judge have never heard of the Rules of Evidence.

On another note, I envy lawyers who practice in states that allow depositions in criminal proceedings.

[2dumb2kwit]

Witnesses are sequestered in the great majority of trials. I can't conceive of the judge allowing either of Martin's parents to testify, given the fact that they've been sitting in the courtroom.

Just so you know, both of Martins parents have been allowed to testify.

[2dumb2kwit]

I'm watching the trial now. I cannot believe how incompetent the prosecution is. Without any objection, Zimmerman's expert witness on "self defense" has been allowed to testify to a number things far beyond his scope of expertise.

It seems like the prosecution, defense, and judge have never heard of the Rules of Evidence.

On another note, I envy lawyers who practice in states that allow depositions in criminal proceedings.

Did you know about the defense lawyer getting the lead investigator to say that he believed Zimmermans story? The following day, the prosecuting attorney objected, and the judge instructed the jury to disregard the detectives statement from the previous day. LOL

[Ken]

Did you know about the defense lawyer getting the lead investigator to say that he believed Zimmermans story? The following day, the prosecuting attorney objected, and the judge instructed the jury to disregard the detectives statement from the previous day. LOL

The prosecutor has to be sleeping through this trial. I would have been on my feet objecting at least 50% of the time.

[karatediver]

Yea, reminds me of a trial I was on where the accused made multiple comments about it being their third strike felony. Each time their own attorney had to object and we had to be instructed to disregard the statement made by the accused. After about the third time they were stupid enough to offer that bit of information and we were told to disregard it I don't think it was very effective telling us to do that over and over about the same thing.

[2dumb2kwit]

Yea, reminds me of a trial I was on where the accused made multiple comments about it being their third strike felony. Each time their own attorney had to object and we had to be instructed to disregard the statement made by the accused. After about the third time they were stupid enough to offer that bit of information and we were told to disregard it I don't think it was very effective telling us to do that over and over about the same thing.

Yep. It's kind of hard to un-hear something. LOL
I'm no lawyer, but it appears to me, that this defense attorney is doing his job. He even used questions about who's voice was crying for help, to have the booted out police chief give enough information about what went on (Involving the tape.) to show how the case was taken from law enforcement and put in the hands of politicians, to be brought to trial. I thought that was pretty slick.

[karatediver]

I'm just bracing for the rioting. You never know with juries but the defense has in my opinion pummeled the prosecution in this case. I fear if Zimmerman is found not guilty urban areas will be chaotic with looting, burning, and rioting. I remember what happened after Rodney King here in California.

[crashdive123]

I'm no lawyer, but it appears to me, that this defense attorney is doing his job. He even used questions about who's voice was crying for help, to have the booted out police chief give enough information about what went on (Involving the tape.) to show how the case was taken from law enforcement and put in the hands of politicians, to be brought to trial. I thought that was pretty slick.

There is soooooooo much wrong about this trial. The prosecutor's actions say (to me) "I didn't want to try this POS case in the first place" which supports your comment about politicians. Angela Corey - the State Attorney that brought charges has (had?) a pretty good reputation around here. I was a supporter of hers. In a news interview, when charges were filed, she said that she sat with Trayvon's parents and prayed over it. Kind of a conflict IMO. Also - the state's first star witness - the one with the "trial nails" was being interviewed by prosecutors in front of Trayvon's mom. What? Really?

To add to the "politics" of it - the Department of Justice seems to have been involved in stirring racial tensions after the death of Trayvon Martin. They were also instrumental in the protests that resulted in the firing/resignation of the Sanford Police Chief. http://www.judicialwatch.org/bulleti...in-was-killed/

[Rick]

It seems to me that this is what happens when two dumb azzes mix it up. Neither of them should have been doing what they were doing and both of them escalated the confrontation until someone got dead. A whole lot of dumb.

[Ken]

Defense Question: "Would you encourage or discourage your child from pursuing a career in law enforcement?"

Question is answered without objection.

WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THAT??????????????? Did the prosecutor REALLY go to law school?

[Ken]

Defense counsel is on re-direct and is opening entirely new lines of questioning? HUH?

[BENESSE]

Why does it seem as though prosecutors are generally less competent than the defense?
Is it because their lawyers work for the state and defense is private and less political/better paid?

[Beo]

Prosecutors hands are tied more with "burden of proof" also remember all states are a little different, here in Ohio prosecutors could bring in his prior thug record, goes to show why Zimmerman watched and followed him. Notice how the media always posts a nice pic of Martin, not the gold grilled tattooed sag'n pants punk. He didn't have a clean record but he didn't deserve to die either, also Zimmerman was carrying ccw, not allowed while doing block watch or citizen patrol. Both idiots were wrong and one idiot ended up dying for it. Sad.
See now that was a politically correct Beo answer.. Lol.
BUT why is it, the family of the dead idiot always says "he was a good boy, he was turning his life around" boo frig'n hoo.

[JPGreco]

I'm just bracing for the rioting. You never know with juries but the defense has in my opinion pummeled the prosecution in this case. I fear if Zimmerman is found not guilty urban areas will be chaotic with looting, burning, and rioting. I remember what happened after Rodney King here in California.

That is something I just don't understand. A mob forms pissed about racial something and then loot and burn their own neighborhoods and businesses. Yeah, that's gonna make me think more highly of you, you really showed me. Only thing it shows is that there is a whole hell of a lot of stupid out there in this world and a most lawyers and politicians don't help the matter at all (no offense ken, but there are a lot of lawyers that make things worse, and I'm sure you can attest to that better than I can).

[Beo]

JPGreco... I gotta cosign on that one, great point.