Thinking About Fuel

[cowgirlup]

I've thought about the heating issue. People managed to survive here since the 1700's with just fireplaces and poorly insulated homes. You adapt to the cold after a while. You may not be totally comfy but you won't die as long as you have some type of fireplace/woodstove and warm clothing.

We have generators and a good supply of fuel. For a long term event we don't plan to run the genny all day and night. Just long enough to run the well pump to get some water and run the septic system. If that fails we have a back up plan for water. We started off the winter with about 8 cords of wood and still have 4+. I think it would take a while for the woods here to be depleted. I keep a few boxex of Ecobricks on had for dire emergencies. I also keep charcoal for cooking in addition to the propane tanks for the gas grill.

Definitely make use of the haybox method of cooking. I already practice using less propane when cooking so it will become a habit. Whenever I make soup or spaghetti sauce I get it to a good boil, put a lid on it and turn it off. When I'm down to the last few minutes baking something I turn the oven off and just let residual heat finish the job.

As far as fuel for the cars we have a good supply but since we're both self employed we may not have to be anyplace.

I don't think we have enough light for solar. Especially in the winter. Still looking in to that.

[Rick]

I have wood (fireplace), kerosene, propane, gasoline, isobutane and alcohol and stoves that will run on all of them. I have a couple of stoves that will use both kerosene and gasoline by changing the generator. I have a an electric generator and backup gasoline for it for about 1 week. Heating the house won't be a problem even without the geny. Heating the house and not asphyxiating everyone is my worry. My home is pretty tight.

[birdman6660]

Theres always enough light to consider solar .. even as far north as I am the batteries always charge up if not fully then just enuf for the necessities .. pump ,,lights etc. when they get very low ( which is almost never) then its reduced to water pump only (12v) as a general rule we get lights , pump .. all our charging needs and about 6 hours of TV altho we seldom watch any at all ... look into it .. might surprise ya ! !

I've thought about the heating issue. People managed to survive here since the 1700's with just fireplaces and poorly insulated homes. You adapt to the cold after a while. You may not be totally comfy but you won't die as long as you have some type of fireplace/woodstove and warm clothing.

We have generators and a good supply of fuel. For a long term event we don't plan to run the genny all day and night. Just long enough to run the well pump to get some water and run the septic system. If that fails we have a back up plan for water. We started off the winter with about 8 cords of wood and still have 4+. I think it would take a while for the woods here to be depleted. I keep a few boxex of Ecobricks on had for dire emergencies. I also keep charcoal for cooking in addition to the propane tanks for the gas grill.

Definitely make use of the haybox method of cooking. I already practice using less propane when cooking so it will become a habit. Whenever I make soup or spaghetti sauce I get it to a good boil, put a lid on it and turn it off. When I'm down to the last few minutes baking something I turn the oven off and just let residual heat finish the job.

As far as fuel for the cars we have a good supply but since we're both self employed we may not have to be anyplace.

I don't think we have enough light for solar. Especially in the winter. Still looking in to that.

[Davidlastink]

The ethanol would be a luxury item for sparing use. But you could setup various systems where lost heat is used for the process. I have been fiddling with a radiator system where the pipes run length wise under the floor of the main level and limiting the entire structure's size and shape. The trick will be to get a comfortable layout with the least footprint. Also sinking your home is an excellent idea that works in all climes.

Having a fully underground basement and root cellar then a half above ground main level will help a lot with insulation.
One could also earth mound on the north (in the northern Hemisphere) wall of the home since little to no sun should be coming through that side. Many small well insulated windows on the east west and south wall to take advantage of the natural light.
Or I could move into a cave.... but the wife would never go for it.

Keep the still right near the water heater or some other heat source used primarily for something else. Theoretically you can pop a solar still on the roof even in northern climes, again the fuel is a luxury commodity used for specific task not letting your 16 yr old go dirt biking in the woods for fun. So even a small amount that lets you get a small quad going in an emergency could mean life vs death.

[hunter63]

Fuel storage starts with reduction of fuel use.
Our land and cabin "The Place" was our attempt to use many of the techniques, that have been used to "do with less"

Starting with the land,....crops for food, you and possible draft animals, grow your own fuel,trees wood, bio mass....located on a south facing hill side, on a river..water/transportation/hydro.

Original plan was an "earth ship" type structure....earth berm-ed partially in ground structure......

http://www.motherearthnews.com/green...#axzz2ROI4rmTD

Opted for a log cabin, maybe not the best choice, but at the time it was a mortgage free, option...on that hillside.....still room for an earth berm addition.

Doing an energy audit with the local co-op, we have decided to increase insulation, before adding solar, wind, hydro....much easier to conserve energy/fuel than to manufacture it.

Primary heat source is a efficient wood stove, backed up with electric for luxuries, lights refrig, TV...and really the only necessary would be the pump.
So back up gen set(s) are needed only, be run...as the gen-sets would handle the heating and hot water needs, only.

Experience over the years has shown a problem with long term fuel storage,...gas, with low emission mixes seem to deteriorate very fast 6 mo,...will still work, but not well.
Truck/tractor Diesel, seems storage last much longer...possible "Ag fuel tank" may be in order.....haven't done it yet as there is a danger of ..."Hey everybody, here is 250 gal @ $4 bucks a gal fuel, that no one is watching right now"....But with a phone call and a check could be delivered to the property in a day or so.

Propane seems like the best way for long term storage, that won't get "stolt" from a very large tank....it isn't like you can pull up to a propane tank, and fill a gas can.
The Mad Max movies come to my mind... for some reason.....when ever fuel storage is discussed.

Any of the purchased fuel would run out, so manufacture of solar/hydro...or even wood gas fired gen set may be in order, http://www.motherearthnews.com/shopp...itemnumber=762......

Solar is next with a grid tied system,(lower cost those batteries are expensive)... addition of a battery back up..... for off grid.
Neighbor up the ridge has a hay bale solar off on grid house, with composting toilet and water collection system.

Also in the mix is a collection of old style tools that don't require power (what?)....the look like decoration on the cabin, but are usable.

That leaves us with transportation.....
Options are, gas, diesel, ( can be made for soybeans)...not sure how the return on energy invested to energy realised for processing......propane, ..would need conversions for vehicles.

Then again bicycles (most likely..and a good possibility that horse (real horse) power is possible....but there again expensive to keep feed, tack (lots of Amish around advice, gear, and animals.
Actually lots of horses around for the rescue lately.

Towns are 2 mile to the north, and 3 miles south....I have to believe a lot of people will be walking, ...
and at that distance, very probable.

[kyratshooter]

Kyrat, how about peat? Was that basically a British Isle fuel source?

Peat can be cut and dried anywhere you find it. Over here we do not call it peat, we refer to it as sporangium moss.

we do not need to forget coal!! People living near coal mines, sorting stations or transport lines will have that as a very efficient fuel scource. I have seen families scavenging for coal along the railroad tracks in EKY and ETN many times. A couple of gunny sacks of coal will keep things going for a day per sack.

The problem we will have in many cases is that peat, wood, coal all burn dirty and will irritate respiratory problems.

This will contribute to the mass die off that happens in that first year after the long term SHTF event. First will come the waterbore illnesses that weaken the population immidiately, the first wave of die off will be disentary and food poisoning and weakening from hunger, then that first winter tens of millions will die of sickness and disease.

Not plagues, simply colds that turn into phnumonia, asthma, common flu. Before the days of antibiotic plain old phneumonia was the nation's biggist killer.

Folks need to learn to do some things now, like making a barrel stove and pipe from scratch without the kit. I have made several without kits and they work fine.

All these ideas of using single burner camping stoves and rocket stoves and such will not cut it long term. That gear is not made for long term dauily use in most cases. That and with only one burner things will be difficult if cooking for a family or group.

One will need a big stove or a well thought out open pit cooking area. anyone that has been to a large camp, like out jamboree has seen the difficulty of having 1/2 dozen pans and pots on the fire or trying to cook for a group with a single heat scource. Girl Scout slaved over hot mesquete pancakes for hours last fall. We would have two or three coffee pots on the fire at the same time ...

What they did back in the day??

They wore lots of clothes inside! And it was almost all wool!

Our art of quilting first shows up as women's clothing for inside the house, not as bed coverings! The women wore so many layers it was difficult to keep up with them; first a shift made of lenin, then a wool flannel underskirt, then a skirt or two then the quilted skirt then an "overskirt" along with camisoles, bed jackets shawls and anything else they could grab.

Men were in the same boat and wore shirt, waistcoat, jacket, greatcoat, then possibly a cape. They did not shed much of it when they entered the house either. The cape and greatcoat might come off but was replaced by a shawl. Abe Lincoln liked his knit shawls even in the Whiter House, which is said to be very drafty.

Beds were made differently too. those canopies were not for show. they were draped with tapistries to contain the body heat to the bed area. Quilts and blankets were the prized items of any homemaker and Iderdown coverlets were extremely expensive trade items from early historic times.

So forget this one blanket camping idea. or the lightweight gear that will decompose in a few weeks. Your inside the house long term gear needs to have some heft too it just like gg-ma and gg-pa looked for.

If an event turns "long term", by that I mean over a year, you will have plenty of wood. There will be enough empty houses to tear down for their lumber to last a while. By the time you run out of that most of the empty lots and much of the farm land will be overgrown and the right size for cutting with a bow saw and hauling by sled, small cart or toted by hand.

When you have to cut and carry every stick and twig you burn the fire becomes a luzury.

The long term stuff falls into the nearly impossible senerio and more into the "did it on purpose" move to the retreat. I have learned most of my long term tricks from living half my life on a farm with no money. Better stuff was out there but I could not afford it!

My present setup is adequite but not the best I ever had. That situation was reserved for the 150 year old farmhouse with a fireplace in every room sitting on 100 acres of second growth hardwood. I even knew how many pieces of firewood per day I would burn at a given temperature.

I raised my kids on that place and never had any sickness issues or got cold. Not too cold anyway. There were a couple of nights where water froze in the bucket in th kitchen 5 feet away from the big woodfired cookstove we used for heat in that room!

[Rick]

Long term I'm just gonna die and be finished with it. Don't have to worry then.

[randyt]

No worries Rick, be happy.

[randyt]

how far north are you now ? I am 3 hours north of Toronto Canada in the middle of nowhere ! I don't even have hydro available here ...

Michigan is shaped like a mitten, I basically live a 1/2 inch down from the tip of the middle finger, give or take a bit. Maybe a smidge east.

A haybox is a super insulated box that a boiling pot of grub is put in and it cooks with its own heat. Sorta kinda like a beanhole.

[hunter63]

Learning the "old ways" is good insurance for a no fuel, or low fuel aftermath.
You have to remember that many of the old ways are not supported today, with supplies being an everyday item, now become speciality good....wool blankets and clothes as an example.

Lamp oil, lye, whale oil, even coal, are harder and more expensive....and not at local stores.
Wheat, oats and even corn need to be ground....coffee substitutes found, and canning/preservation methods need to be learned and planned for.


Yeah, if you can't live with out fuel, you have a long cold way to follow......

[Rick]

No worries Rick, be happy.

+1 on both! But I think long term we'll all be dead....just sayin'....

[Old Professor]

If you have access to coal, coal can be burned with wood to keep a fire hotter, longer. I remember my parents doing this when i was a kid. My father had been a coal miner and his family burned both coal and wood on a farm. I remember open grates between the floors to alow heat to rise into the second floor. I loved lying on the one right above the kitchen wood stove! I know coal tipples where you can buy a pickup truck load of "cannel coal" which is a low ash coal very similar to coking coal that the steel industry uses. I used to burn cannel coal when I had a fireplace in my house.
Here along Lake Superior, old timers tell me that when wood was their only heat, they cut and seasoned eight to ten full cords of wood per year for heating and cooking. With the new, high efficency wood burners available today, I believe wood is the best long term heat source in forested areas. Even in urban areas, you can often get free wood from the city tree trimming crews. I happen to live a few hundred yards from the village "wood Dump" where people dump trees and brush. Any one can harvest that wood for free, yet every winter they burn about a hundred cords of wood to clear the duimp space because people are too lazy to come and get free wood!

[Davidlastink]

Sounds like my lottery ticket retirement plan Rick.

The simplest thing to do is move south if you have no setup for northern living.

Ask yourself this. Can you store goods in snow our side during the winter?

Yes?

Move south or have the right preps. There is a reason why northern civilizations tend to have hearty muscular giants vs the small lean southern civilizations. Cold is tougher to live in thus the weak die and strong live. Vikings were the result of climatic darwinisim they pillaged because there was not much to support them.

Also northern civilizations send to be less populous since resources limit population size.

Abarigionals can live with a blanket, stick and water carrier because they don't have to worry about cold. Human beings would likely not have evolved if we originated in a cold climate since our inate physical characteristics are not suited in any way for the cold nor is the development of tool usage seen in animals in cold climates.

WINTER IS COMMING.

Its a viceral existance and I would not want to be dealing with it unprepared.

[Seniorman]

KYRATSHOOTER - "I do not understand the concept people have that they will need auto fuel post SHTF."

Well, we'll still have to go to McDonalds, Pizza Hut, and Jack In The Box, and mom & dad will still have to ferry the kids to karate class, dance class, piano lessons, wrestling class, band class, soccer games, Little League, scrapbooking class, pottery class, caligraphy class, etc. Also, mom & dad will have to drive the kids to Vail, Disneyland, and Six Flags, for their annual winter/summer vacation treks.

Of course we'll need auto fuel ... or how're mom and dad gonna keep the kids happy??

S.M.

[hunter63]

Whole point is.....that jacked up, big motor, 42 in Buck shots, 4X4....is gonna be a chicken coup,....... when the fuel runs out....better rethink the BOV for a long term TEOTWAWKI.

Our resident off grid hermit......uses a bicycle, a cart....and a donkey/w cart as well.

[Rick]

Why is all this happening anyway? Is some meteor inbound I don't know about? I think you'd be much better served to worry about what happens if you get trapped inside for 10 days because of a blizzard or the electricity is down for 3 days because of an ice storm. I can't fathom what could drive us back to the stone age for a year or more.

[GreatUsername]

Why is all this happening anyway? Is some meteor inbound I don't know about? I think you'd be much better served to worry about what happens if you get trapped inside for 10 days because of a blizzard or the electricity is down for 3 days because of an ice storm. I can't fathom what could drive us back to the stone age for a year or more.

I agree. I only plan for "a few weeks", if stuff gets permanently bad, I can worry about survival after the initial famine and plagues kill 70% of the population, if I'm one of the lucky (or unlucky?) survivors. Such complete and utter devestation is never all-world encompassing though. Consider the fall of Rome and the "dark ages". China and the Ottomans didn't even notice that Rome fell. They just ignored Europe entirely and kept on living in power, with good agriculture, relative peace, and better technology for several centuries. I rather doubt that the whole world will ever go down as one singular sinking ship. If it DOES, I think that pre-planning will only help me so much, and I'll have to see how I can adapt once I see the new reality.

[kyratshooter]

Why is all this happening anyway? Is some meteor inbound I don't know about? I think you'd be much better served to worry about what happens if you get trapped inside for 10 days because of a blizzard or the electricity is down for 3 days because of an ice storm. I can't fathom what could drive us back to the stone age for a year or more.

We know Rick, but it's a survival forum so some folks come here looking for long term survival information.

Just because you don't believe in Santa Clause don't mean they are going to call off Christmas!

And you are absolutely right, If one is not prepared he is better off dead! And will accomplish that goal soon enough.

We still have sections of New Orleans not buldozed under from Katrina and H-Sandy is still in cleanup mode and we know how well TPTB delt with those situations. I still have neighbors living with in-laws due to a tornado last year, and if you don't think that takes survival skills then think again!

5 years ago we had a power outage that got the water supply within 5 hours of gone for a 1.5 million population metro area, and no, they have not fixed that situation. As Hunter would say, bad shut can happen!

And it's the astroid you don't see comming that gets you! you know, the ones where the genusis at NASA duck and say "WHAT WAS THAT???"

So when the "big one" hits California or the New Madrid Falt freaks out on us the next time and the government takes 6 months to get the first bulldozer into your area, some of this un-needed knowledge might keep a couple of folks younger than us alive for the interm.

If things keep going to he!! as rapidly as they have for the past 6 years it is information all of us will need as soon as the government runs out of other people's money.

Besides, I'm really sick of talking about terrorists and gun control!

[birdman6660]

we know rick, but it's a survival forum so some folks come here looking for long term survival information.

Just because you don't believe in santa clause don't mean they are going to call off christmas!

And you are absolutely right, if one is not prepared he is better off dead! And will accomplish that goal soon enough.

We still have sections of new orleans not buldozed under from katrina and h-sandy is still in cleanup mode and we know how well tptb delt with those situations. I still have neighbors living with in-laws due to a tornado last year, and if you don't think that takes survival skills then think again!

5 years ago we had a power outage that got the water supply within 5 hours of gone for a 1.5 million population metro area, and no, they have not fixed that situation. As hunter would say, bad shut can happen!

And it's the astroid you don't see comming that gets you! You know, the ones where the genusis at nasa duck and say "what was that???"

so when the "big one" hits california or the new madrid falt freaks out on us the next time and the government takes 6 months to get the first bulldozer into your area, some of this un-needed knowledge might keep a couple of folks younger than us alive for the interm.

If things keep going to he!! As rapidly as they have for the past 6 years it is information all of us will need as soon as the government runs out of other people's money.

Besides, i'm really sick of talking about terrorists and gun control!

agreed and well put ..... Give this man a cigar .. Lol .

[randyt]

comfort is so overrated