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Thread: The Devil is in the Details

  1. #1
    One step at a time intothenew's Avatar
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    Default The Devil is in the Details

    But, an Engineer is driven to this self inflicted turmoil.

    I've never been one to count calories, or fuss over IU/mg of vitamins. I eat a varied diet, and plenty of exercise comes from chores and recreation. I've maintained a reasonable weight through 5 decades. So, the initiative for the following was not sparked on my own accord but from observing the varmints over the past twelve months. I certainly will personally benefit from this academic exercise though.

    One of this years most gratifying tasks was making up MRGs (Meals Ready to Go) with the varmints. I gave little instruction, so it seemed at first, for the assemblage. Simply put, I insisted on a protein, a carb, and a fruit/vegetable with each meal. Snacks certainly found their way in, just as marbles and rubber snakes in the pockets. Left to their own devises, they loaded up on the carbs. Maybe that's a bad thing, maybe it ain't. To try and get my head around what is/ain't, I have started some research. I ask for your input, over the next few months, as academia leads to the lab and to the field. I hope to emerge this spring with a brand new MRG plan.

    First question;

    Is a calorie calculator such as this, LINKY, sufficient in variables? If not, where is the magic formula or how do we put the appropriate Kentucky windage on this one? Certainly the activity levels are subjective.


    Second question;

    RDI (LINKY) or DRI(LINKY) and then some?


    Third question;

    Assuming a consensus is reached on the first two questions, is the RDI/DRI simply a ratio of recommended calories multiplied by all of the vitamins, minerals, etc divided by 2000?



    I have many more questions in store, but will stop for the moment with those. I have some spreadsheets made up that I will be glad to share with those interested, when finalized.

    Help? Heckle? I welcome both.
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite


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    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    Man, you are asking the wrong guy. I'm into the two basic food groups, sweets and preservatives.
    Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.

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    Come on back in a few weeks. I figure high fructose corn syrup and potassium sorbate will be on the menu by then.
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

  4. #4

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    The Calculators IMO are crap....due to the fact that everyone is an individual.

    I personally feel that the more realistic way to go is portion control and slight substitution.

    I'm trying to loose some weight myself....holidays have sucked....but I've been doing this since Sept...and have lost 25lbs

    First part of substitution....was breakfast. I still have my cup of coffee.....but instead of either skipping breakfast or stopping and getting a biscuit (400+cals)...I have either a couple packs of instant oatmeal or a cereal bar. I try to do this within the first hour of waking. It puts something on my stomach, the body doesn't go in to famine mode, and I don't pig out at lunch because I'm "starving".

    If I want a snack before lunch....I go with a piece of fruit or a small pk of crackers (4).

    For lunch...I generally go out to eat. fast food isn't good for you but when you are running a business it is unavoidable for a "catch what you can" lunch. The trick is watching what you get. I don't get the big a$$ burger....the "monster" this or "super size" that. I generally will have a chicken sandwich or a burger....skip the fries (which is difficult to do) or just get a small...and a tea (generally 1/2 and 1/2...cause they make it way too sweet). When possible I'll stop and grab a salad. I generally have done less modification on my lunches than any other meal....I just control the portion size.

    If I snack between lunch and dinner....I keep it small. Generally it is a piece of fruit or a handful of nuts.(I have to get a handful and put them away right then...cause I love mixed nuts)

    Dinner is the kicker....cause my wife is a great cook. We have 2 boys (11 and 13) and my baby girl (7)....so we generally fix a large dinner. I have made it a rule for me to get a "normal" size portion of dinner. I try to consciously eat it slower than I normally eat. After I'm done eating that serving....I will drink a 32oz glass of water....and wait 5 mins. Then I ask myself if I am realistically "hungry"...or just eating cause it's good. Probably about 50% of the time....I'll stop there. If I go back for seconds...I can only have a portion 1/2 the size of my original portion.( i don't weigh it...just an honest eyeball).

    I generally have had a smack in the evening...for a very long time....I have tried to stop this. If I get hungry...I once again drink a large glass of water....maybe a piece of fruit...but fruit will give me heartburn in the evenings on occasion.

    The biggest thing....is you have to want to do it. Don't beat yourself up if you slip.....and you do have to reward yourself every so often.

    I used to drink sodas very often.....but they are terrible for you. Tons and tons of empty calories. I do reward my self once to twice a week with a 8oz Coke....or a good dessert....just don't do it alot.

    Weigh yourself....I weigh in the morning after evac. and before coffee. I don't write it down....but I do remember the original number.

    Good luck....It's a PITA....but I have noticed my energy level going up....and that makes it worth while.
    So this is how liberty dies.....With thunderous applause.

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    Since we're getting personal, thanks for that Echo2:

    I've never really had much of a problem with weight control, and still don't. The kids don't either. My concern runs a bit deeper than that, but all the while taking caloric intake into consideration.

    I guess my ultimate question is;


    How do I plan and package field stable food with the appropriate calories, and vitamins, and minerals and.............?



    Almost every time I am afield for more than a week, I return with an incredible craving for a salad the size of a wheelbarrow and a can (the whole can) of peaches. Is my body telling me that I have been delinquent somewhere? I plan on some extended stays in the field with these kids this coming year, and just hope to be able to take something well balanced with us.
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

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    Senior Member jfeatherjohn's Avatar
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    This is just making me really hungry...
    KF7ZJR I always carry a pocket knife, just in Case.

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    For what? What are you craving right now?
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

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    oops....Took it wrong.

    Are you looking for things to take with you into the field or for LTS?....or both?
    So this is how liberty dies.....With thunderous applause.

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    Medium term storage to carry in the field. LTS, Martha, our resident pantler, has that one covered.


    I say medium term, I would like to make them up for grab and go. A year or less on rotation.
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

  10. #10

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    Well-balanced is the keyword.
    All those Recommended Daily Requirements don't take into account a person's metabolism and activity level.
    They are simply guides and I've had more than my fair share of arguments recently with a nutritionist on the subject.

    You can try to use some of those online recipe calculators to estimate the nutritional value of the food you are making. At least they'll give you ballparks. I needed those to help prove to said nutritionist that the food-from-scratch I was making was just as good or even better than the pre-packaged manufactured crap she was recommending.

    If you are going out in the field for long hikes and strenuous activity you may want to starch load a bit to keep your blood sugar levels steady, similar to a marathoner. I like things like oatmeal, granola, crackers, pasta. Add to those some dried fruits, nuts, vegetables. How you prepare and carry meat products is up to you. Dried milk works. If the kids will drink it. After any amount of time eating dried prepared foods, of course your body will crave fresh stuff. If, and only if, you are confident in your plant ID skills, you can think about fresh greens foraged during your travels. Just be very sure of what you are eating and the chances of it having been sprayed.

    Kids are a whole other story though. I don't have em and never had to plan for em. Their energy levels are higher and they may need more than the recommended adult daily requirement of some things, less of others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LowKey View Post
    Well-balanced is the keyword.
    All those Recommended Daily Requirements don't take into account a person's metabolism and activity level.
    They are simply guides and I've had more than my fair share of arguments recently with a nutritionist on the subject.

    You can try to use some of those online recipe calculators to estimate the nutritional value of the food you are making. At least they'll give you ballparks.........................If you are going out in the field for long hikes and strenuous activity you may want to starch load a bit to keep your blood sugar levels steady, similar to a marathoner...................................


    Ball park is good. Field tests are invaluable, as with most things.


    So, given a 2600 calorie diet as an estimation would you aim for a 26/20 amount of Vitamin A, Iron, Folate, etc. etc.? By how much would you overshoot on the starch.....10%......25%.......?

    To the contraire, if the caloric estimate is 1200 calories, are the goals of vitamins and minerals 12/20?

    Few exceptions to the above? A lot of exceptions to the above?
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

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    Senior Member WolfVanZandt's Avatar
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    Intothenew, I think you'll have to take any of these calculators as recommendations to adapt as needed. You're dealing with chaos rich systems (bodies) and no formula is going to be able to tell you how to approach them. Use the calculator results as a starting point and plan to modify them in the field.

    I used to order stuff from outfits like Paladin and, with some background in the sciences I quickly came to the understanding that, if you used any of the do-it-youself manuals, you'd better already know what your doing before you use any of the plans or recipes. For instance, some of the explosives were pretty much calculated to blow up in your face if you actually tried to mix them up.

    That's why I approach things like food from the idea of, know the basic principles first so you can throw them together from scratch. The human mind is designed to work in chaotic systems. If you understand the principles, then you use the mechanics for a starting point, and you have cultivated the intuitions to be able to modify the machine as it runs, then you are equipped to deal with the situation. For the case of food, you need to know how to construct meals; you can use the calculators for initial states; then you keep your bodies in shape so that they can crave what they need when they need it; and you know what resources you have in the wild to modify your meals to satisfy your cravings.
    True enough, my final home is still out there, but this is most certainly my home range and I love it. I love every rock I fall off and tree I trip over. Even when I am close to dying from exhaustion, a beautiful sunset doesn't lose it's power to refresh and inspire me and that, in itself, is enough to save me sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo2 View Post
    .................Are you looking for things to take with you into the field...............



    Just to clarify that a little more, we've done it/do it. These pics are from my supper grab and go box. There typically 20-25 meals in there.

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    That's a homemade chili-mac and some accoutrements.
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfVanZandt View Post
    Intothenew, I think you'll have to take any of these calculators as recommendations to adapt as needed. You're dealing with chaos rich systems (bodies) and no formula is going to be able to tell you how to approach...............


    97-98%, and I assume that is from people much more knowledgeable on the subject than I. Are you saying to simply trust your cravings?
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

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    Gotcha....basically a chow box you can forget about until needed....other than rotation.

    If you are in the "craving salad" mode when you get home.....throw a can of greens in there....or even better....learn to identify wild edible greens. My Mrs does this when we are camping.

    Some are more bitter than others.....but you can cook them or wilt them into many different dishes.

    Also if you are only talking a week or so.....a couple fiber supplement bars are highly valuable...and store well.

    As far as vitamins and minerals...a week or so should really send you into depletion mode....if you are still eating relatively regularly.

    A caloric boost in the outdoors is generally warranted.....our scouts will generally eat 2x their normal caloric intake while camping....I figure it is from lack of electronics...

    Do you have a few packs of powdered Gatorade?.....good at disguising treated water and has a lot of minerals and such.
    So this is how liberty dies.....With thunderous applause.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by intothenew View Post
    97-98%, and I assume that is from people much more knowledgeable on the subject than I. Are you saying to simply trust your cravings?
    Craving are the bodies way of telling you you need something.
    So this is how liberty dies.....With thunderous applause.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo2 View Post
    Gotcha....basically a chow box you can forget about until needed....other than rotation.


    YEP

    If you are in the "craving salad" mode when you get home.....throw a can of greens in there


    I should never say die but, I ain't humpin, and I ain't asking the varmints to hump a can.


    ....or even better....learn to identify wild edible greens. My Mrs does this when we are camping.

    Some are more bitter than others.....but you can cook them or wilt them into many different dishes.

    If it were only me, absolutely. Greenbrier, Dandelion, Cattail, Water Lily..............Showing the varmints that has been reduced to a few particular Day Lilies in MaMaws flower beds. That one is comimg, in earnest, in their education. When is the question.

    Also if you are only talking a week or so.....a couple fiber supplement bars are highly valuable...and store well.

    Why not leave with the meals containing the appropriate fiber?

    As far as vitamins and minerals...a week or so should really send you into depletion mode....if you are still eating relatively regularly.

    But as with thirst, you are already dehydrated. Why wait?

    A caloric boost in the outdoors is generally warranted.....our scouts will generally eat 2x their normal caloric intake while camping....I figure it is from lack of electronics...

    And I hope to plan for that. Do I plan on 2x? What is 2x?

    Do you have a few packs of powdered Gatorade?.....good at disguising treated water and has a lot of minerals and such.

    In each of our FAK or PSK is a couple of electrolyte mixes. But, that is treating a symptom.


    I mean to sound argumentative. That is not from an unwillingness to change an opinion, I haven't necessarily formed one yet.
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo2 View Post
    Craving are the bodies way of telling you you need something.
    Then, you are treating a symptom. Can't we try to ward that off?
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfVanZandt View Post
    .........................know the basic principles first....................
    I have to back track a little. What are they?
    "They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on."- Lone Waite

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    Senior Member WolfVanZandt's Avatar
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    The first principles are how your body works (physiology - maybe just nutritional physiology), and maybe how to make food taste good. I bet you can find opensourceware to brush up on all that.

    Reread my post. I did not say to simply trust your cravings. Your cravings, in fact, can lead you wrong if they're not fine tuned. You have to start with a healthy body to have healthy cravings. I will refer you back to the last sentence of my post. There are several points in addition to trusting your cravings.

    "considered to be sufficient......"

    Does that take into consideration the rate of excretion? Do you figure you might have to balance intake with expenditure and excretion? You're the one who asked and you're the one that wondered why it isn't working. It doesn't work because you're not working with a simple machine. You're dealing with a chaotic system. And if you don't want my opinion, don't ask. And if you don't like the sound of the advice I give, you certainly don't have to accept it.
    True enough, my final home is still out there, but this is most certainly my home range and I love it. I love every rock I fall off and tree I trip over. Even when I am close to dying from exhaustion, a beautiful sunset doesn't lose it's power to refresh and inspire me and that, in itself, is enough to save me sometimes.

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