Emp??????

[Beans]

Will an EMP brust effect flashlights, Red dot optics, other types of electronic rifle sights ETC? Would removing the batteries or storing them in a safe protect them??

[Sarge47]

A "Faraday Cage" will protect electronic equipment from an EMP burst!

[kyratshooter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI

[Beans]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI

Thanks
good information

[crashdive123]

An EMP burst or E bomb is sort of generic. It depends a lot on duration, amplitude, distance (or altitude), atmospheric conditions and frequency. Shielding plays a big part in it - the term faraday cage is sort of generic in nature. There is so much BS on the internet about EMPs, mostly the stuff of fantasy and over active imaginations. That being said - it would be difficult to know if the items you specifically listed would be affected for the reasons stated. There is a member here (CWI555) that is on from time to time that is pretty knowledgeable on the subject. I'll shoot him a message.

[Wildthang]

A metal safe would provide adequate protection!

[cwi555]

I will sew some post of mine from another forum here:

I've studied the subject for over two decades now. It's exceptionally complicated at best with even the best minds getting confused.

The root of that confusion is in that there are two primary sets of effects.
Both originate at the EMP device, but how those effects are delivered are night and day different.

One is coming from the air down. Modern EMP devices are design to detonate at the edge or just past the edge of space. They contain E1 through E3 affects in descending speed. There are a multitude of wave mechanic involved that would take a month of Sundays if not more to explain. This is the source of problems for cars, planes, and anything else in an effective floating ground state.

The other problem is that such a device also delivers a ground up effect. That being that it super charges the telluric currents that normally pass back and forth in the earth on a North South plane.
If the sun were to cause it, we would call it a geomagnetic storm in excess of a G5 or stronger storm. (BTW, there is an incoming CME, so don't be surprised if your radios and cell phones act up as it hits the satellites. Other than being a potential PIA for cells and radios it should be nothing to worry about).
This is where the primary threat to the grid comes from. The secondary threat comes from E1-3 sky down as it affects the electronic circuitry of the grid.

At the end of the day, understanding that it's coming at you from under your feet, and over your head is critical. That is the part most 'professionals' miss. It's not that they are dumb, it's that the subject is so overwhelmingly complicated as to force them to focus on the more day to day problems like lightning strikes, Geomagnetic storms that rate less than a 5, and other more close to home affects.

They will typically try to extrapolate what they do know about the subject into the subject of high altitude electromagnetic pulses in general.
That is where they go wrong.

With that said, the militarizes of the world have investigated the subject far more than they let on (imagine that), and have empirical evidence in hand as to what will work and what won't work. The problem is most of that information is classified.
However, that doesn't stop certain enterprising individuals from getting a piece of retired hardened gear and surmising why it is built the way it is.

There have also been a multitude of test by the nuclear powers of the 60's. Key among those test are the soviet K project test results. More specifically the K-3.
The dam of secrecy surround what is known about the K-3 test has sprung a leak as of late. Most notably coming out of a report issued by ORNL last year.
In particular, it was determined that the slow E3 element was the most damaging. There were no transient issues, these currents stayed up in terms of minutes, not microseconds.

Getting back to point, understand the difference between the top down and bottom up effects.

An often asked question after that is this:
Would a nuke generated EMP also cause the ground up effect or just a solar generated EMP?

Yes it will. The K3 test in 1962 Kazakhstan by the Soviet Union graphically proved that. Keep in mind that this particular test was only 300 kilotons.

Of note was an under ground power line running from Astana (then called Aqmola) the capital city of Kazakhstan, to the city of Almaty just under 600 miles away. Another was an underground telephone line that was 560 miles. Both were fried along with a multitude of various instruments and equipment along the way. It was enough to catch the power plant on fire that the line was feeding from, and enough to cook all phone equipment.

The Soviets had the entire area plastered with various instruments, especially along those lines. It was determined through those instruments that the E3 component took 20 seconds to peak out, and over a minute to decay. The telluric flux created by the device peaked at 1,300nT/minute. For comparison, the solar storm that took out the entire Quebec grid on March 13, 1989 only made it to 480nT/minute.

Modern devices would be detonated at approximately the same altitude, but with 1.2-5 megatons. Just one of those would shut down the entire eastern seaboard of the U.S.

That is the problem with grounding against EMP. An Earth ground won't work due to the nature of the E3 component. (rise times in terms of seconds and minutes, excessive nT rates, etc)

Then there is dialectic breakdown of windings and insulators. During that test, the Soviets realized there was a potential for loss of power. Their fix was to move a multitude of diesel generators into the area. Most of the failed due to dialectic breakdown of their windings.

That by itself would take a month of Sundays to explain so I'll reference you to the wiki page on that. It's a bit simplistic, but gives you the idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_breakdown

That breaks into another aspect of the problem. It's not over for a very long time. Days, months, and potentially years. The Quebec grid experienced this problem for a few months after the event was over and it did not have to deal with the E1 and E2 problems.

Alternators, generators, if it's got a coil, its subject to failure due to that problem.
Therein addresses one the most egregious erroneous assumptions regarding the subject matter. Old cars, diesels, etc are safe. They are not. Starters, alternators, generators, all are subject to dialectic breakdown.

Vehicles in general are examples of floating grounds. You don't see cars and trucks dragging a long piece of wire grounding off behind them. They will be relatively safe from the worst of the E3 component, but they are still subject to the E1 and E2 components (top down).

This is mitigated by the lack of complexity involved in their operation, but it's a good idea to have a spare alternator, generator, starter, and coil, especially the coil for gas run vehicles.

Consideration should be given to all electric devices and motors. For instance the electric compressor motor for you central heat and air, the motor for your refrigerator/freezer etc. this is very often overlooked.

That dialectic break down factor is one of the reasons why the "EMP commission report" was such bovine excrement. Not only did they cherry pick the vehicles being tested, severely restricted the number of those that were tested, extrapolated results using algorithms that were complete hogwash, they also gave absolutely no consideration for dialectic break down at all.

Now lets talk a bit about the phone line that was in the K3 test.
There were reports of 1500 to 3400 amperes induced currents in the line. That information comes from the paper "IEEE Transactions on Electromagnetic Compatibility, Vol. 40, No. 4, November 1998".
More specifically from it's co-author Vladimir Loborev which I've had the fortune to personally meet and question on the subject while on a project in Ukraine.

Those official reports underplay what actually happened on the ground according to him. It busted every fuse, and relay in the system, caused multiple fires, and that's just the short list.

Next time your out, look around at the cable company, telephone company, etc lines. Now picture them all with spikes of three thousand amps.

That brings us to another egregious assumption. Fire.
What do you think is going to happen when that cable line running into your house is suddenly hit with three thousand amps? For that matter, not even the power line feeding your house is built to withstand that. That's enough amperage to jump over any standard protection. Those little surge protectors are going to go up in smoke.

Our answer to this was to build a smaller external breaker room for all homes of our members. All external connections go through this room first, which is equipped with multiple breakers/surge protectors. We fully expect them to be cooked off should an EMP event occur. In effect, they are sacrificial. Each has a mechanically/thermally activated halon suppression system. That was our answer to the problem, you may have a differing solution.

If you want it protected against this, your going to need a nested floating ground faraday box.

[cwi555]

Now lets discuss the idea of a faraday cage in reference to common internet myths.

What is it?

Everything from a gun safe to a metal box, all with the idea of it being grounded?
Lets also discuss what it is we are protecting.

LED's are semiconductors. So are transistors, most diodes, solar cells, etc. Therein is the problem.
Those LED's, transistors, etc are formed using semiconductor materials by introducing what is called a doping agent in-between them. The doping agent are impurities that modulate the semiconductors electrical properties and in turn allowing the creation of an electrically tunable end property.
Drilling down into that a little more, that ability to tune the electrical properties is itself a doping process. The overall product such as LED's is created by doping a P&N junction. An P type semiconductor is doped by adding a material that creates 'acceptors' or in other words, a positive charge hole (such as Indium Gallium). An N type semiconductor is doped by adding a material capable of creating donor electrons (such as phosphorus on silicon). Which btw, the standard LED most flashlights are made of are an Indium Gallium on a phosphorus substrate.
The end result is called a P&N junction.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
Using an LED as an example, when you turn the flash light on, it sends a specific amount of electricity through the P&N junction.
When it passes through the P&N the energy is forced into a lower energy level. To maintain balance, photons (light) are emitted.
Here is where the rubber meets the road on this. Introduce to much electricity and the PN junction will heat up and burn out.
It doesn't matter if the device in question was on or off. If you want to see this in action, clip a negative and positive lead to a mini-maglight LED and attach them to a 12 volt supply.
Another way to do this is to take a stun gun and zap the same LED laying out on a table. Be sure your wearing gloves and safety glasses if you do either.
It is a false assumption that the device needs to be on or off in terms of the E1 and E2 top down affects from an EMP blast. The heave component of the E3 will also play a role in this. The only real difference between on and off is the off condition affords a touch more resistance as the distance between the initiation points are open circuited rather than closed. If your on the horizon or under a super EMP, the difference won't make a hill of beans.

I had thought at one time that a standard Faraday cage would work. Until I had the chance to speak/interview with Vladimir Loborev. As he pointed out to me, the 1859 Carrington event super solar storm displayed the errors of linear logic when the source of excitation is EMP. The E1 component is in terms of microseconds rise times. The E2 component is in terms up to a second, and the E3 can have rise times from seconds to minutes.
The evidence collected after the K3 soviet test had multiple examples of 'fatigued fuse'. That was the first clue as to why so many homes, businesses, power plants, and generators caught fire. The first hit (E1) weakened the systems with piles of fatigued fuses. fatigued fuse occurs when a fuse is hit with a very high voltage, but in a rise time of only 1-2 microseconds. That's part of the problem. (don't forget what an over-voltage protection circuit is supposed to do. When your talking the kind of rise times of the E1 component, you can double and triple the voltage that will pass before it trips)
The second half of this is as stated in an earlier post. Distance and geographic location. This was displayed in both the Carrington solar event, and the K3 Soviet test. Picture what happens if someone backfeeds a generator without killing the main breakers.
In the case of the Carrington event, it was 100 percent ground up. The telluric currents supercharged the telegraphic lines and in the process, blowing up the earth batteries used to charge them. Telegraph stations nationwide caught fire.
In the case of the K3, again it was back feed from the ground up, but it was also hit from the top down. All bets are off as normal precautions to prevent overheated lines go out the window because your ground has become a positive feed. This is true of the lines at the street, and the switch yard at the power plant. Remember that is 'after' the entire system has already been weakened by the E1/2 components.

The geographic element comes from the varying resistance levels within the ground itself. As you know, electricity will follow the path of least resistance up and until it can overcome that resistance.

Most important is the empirical evidence. It has happened already. We can debate the physics of it until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, real world results from the K3 experiment caught multiple locations on fire. The worst part about it was the power plants that caught fire. Not even the Soviets knew/know why that happened for sure, and it was their bomb and experiment.

Linear logic IE a standard grounded faraday cage will not cut it.

Lets have a look at some graphics and reports.
It quotes a specific test report from 1994.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...f&AD=ADA278230
That particular one is a nuclear environment survivability study for equipment. The testing altitude is for a standard thermonuclear high yield burst, not for an EMP specific weapon. For an EMP specific weapon, the altitude will be closer to 180 miles (290 kilometers) than 20 to 40 kilometers which is the prime altitude for a Hbomb.

There is a lot of good information in the ADA278230 report, especially regarding the affects of radiation on electronics so it is definitely something to study and print out for future posterity, but a solid source of EMP specific information it is not.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/ees/etsd/pes...Meta-R-320.pdf
This report gets more into the magnetic aspects of the E1 element.
(In section 6, at PDF page 110, it has some pictures and examples of fried electronics if your interested)

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/ees/etsd/pes/ferc_emp_gic.shtml


Now for a new addition. Microwaves won't get it. It is a factor of wavelength. the smallest hole an electromagnetic wave can get through will be half it's wavelength regardless of it's amplitude (strength).
Microwaves have little holes in the viewing screen for a reason. The hole diameter is ~1/16".
That is 1/2 the wavelength of the primary beam of microwaves.

Try sticking your phone in a microwave and have someone else call it. When the phone in the microwave rings, That is the E1 component of (shortest wavelengths) frying your electronics inside a standard grounded Faraday cage.

You must have an outer shell of conductive metal that is 100 percent continuous, with an inner metal box at least 1.5" insulated by a none conductive material in-between. The distance is the minimum to avoid skin affects.


Bottom line is, there is a host of misinformation out there on the internet. I am siding with empirical evidence over internet BS all day long.

[kennethdnunn]

I believe in preparing fore the worst case scenario which would be an HEMP....as you will see it is unknown the damage that would occur....

Dr. William R. Graham chaired the EMP Commissions for eight years and is widely considered to be the free world's foremost expert on electromagnetic pulse.

• From 1982 to 1985, he served as chair of the General Advisory Committee on Arms Control and Disarmament.
• Under President Reagan beginning November 25, 1985 he served in the position of Deputy Administrator of NASA.
• From December 4 1985 to May 11, 1986, Graham served as Acting Administrator of NASA following the resignation of James M. Beggs.
• October 1, 1986 to become Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy.
• On October 16, 1986, he was sworn in as Science Advisor to President Reagan, a position he held until June 1989.

The following testimony was taken from :

Subcommittee on Emerging Threats, Cybersecurity, and Science and Technology of the Committee on Homeland Security House of Representatives:
July 21, 2009



Maryland's Congressman Roscoe G. Bartlett
Question and answer secession.
Mr. Bartlett: EMP attack may be a low probability; it is certainly a high-impact event. But when you have such a potential like your house burning, you buy an insurance policy. You do something that will make you whole in the event that that happens.
I would submit that in our country, we have done essentially, nothing that would make us whole, if this were to happen.
Dr. Graham, it is my understanding that electromagnetic pulse is an unavoidable accompaniment of any and every nuclear detonation. That if it occurs at ground level, that the area of the fireball and the EMP area, are not all that much different, that we have had little attention to EMP when it is a ground level attack.
But if it is at altitude, and if it is extra atmospheric, it is line of sight. A detonation 300 miles high above Nebraska, Iowa, would cover our whole country? Is that essentially correct?
Mr. Graham: Yes, with a footnote that even for a surface, or near-surface nuclear burst, if there are things like power lines or conductors going into the fireball, that fireball acts like a tremendous battery. And will drive electrical signals miles and miles beyond its perimeter, but along the line.
Mr. Bartlett: It is my understanding that in your work on the commission that you interrogated two Russian generals, who told you that the Soviets had developed, and they have enhanced EMP weapons that would produce 200 kilovolts per meter. That is correct?
Mr. Graham: Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Bartlett: That would be 100 kilovolts per meter at the margins of our country?
Mr. Graham: It depends--it is somewhat north, south dependent affect, but in some directions, yes.
Mr. Bartlett: It is my understanding that the most we have ever built and tested to is sometimes 30 and sometimes 50 kilovolts per meter. Is that correct?
Mr. Graham: Yes, that is correct. The upper figure was used earlier, and now the lower.
Mr. Bartlett: If in fact we could be exposed to 100 or 200 kilovolts per meter, protecting to 50 kilovolts per meter is little better than doing nothing, is--or 30, it is now 30. Is that correct?
Mr. Graham: Well, it is unknown as to how good the protection would be above that, because, it would be an untested regime. In general, the test, the protection could fail at the higher levels.
Mr. Bartlett: What proportion, what part of our electronic world would you expect to be affected by 200 kilovolts per meter?
Mr. Graham: Essentially, everything that wasn't in a conductive package, everything from PCs on up through power grids.
Mr. Bartlett: It would have to be in a Faraday cage and grounded if it were to survive. Is that correct?
Mr. Graham: Yes, individual components that are wrapped up in protective packages might survive it. But anything that is functional, or connected to other systems, would not.
Mr. Bartlett: In a former life, I was a scientist. I am always amazed at scientists and their ability to understate. I am now kind of a recovering scientist.
But Dr. Graham is a scientist, and he says that ``EMP is one of a small number of threats that can hold our society at risk of catastrophic consequences.''
In other words, ``that could end life as we know it.'' Is that correct?
Mr. Graham: Certainly as we know it in the United States. I don't think North Korea would find it a shock if they had an EMP event, because, they have so little infrastructure to begin with.
But, our country has many times the population it had say in 1900. Yet, our facilities could be driven back to the pre-1900 level by an EMP attack. The country could just not support that population.
Mr. Bartlett: This has been described as a high-level EMP, robust EMP lay down, as a giant time machine that would move us back a century in technology. That is roughly correct?
Mr. Graham: Yes, maybe a little more than a century affect.
Mr. Bartlett: So, this is such a horrendous consequence. Why are we not paying more attention to it?
One of the great experts in this area, Lowell Wood, says ``it is just too hard. They don't want to deal with it.'' Is that the problem?
Mr. Graham: That is probably a better question for a social scientist to answer. But, I have heard it characterized as a low-probability, high-impact affect. The commission would not assign a probability to it.”

[mountainmark]

Great post cwi! Thank you!

Kenneth, nice interview.

[hunter63]

After all this information, seems that worrying about your red dot sights and such, will be the least of your worries......

[jfeatherjohn]

You know, Hunter, that is what I have thought for quite awhile.

The implications are staggering.

[hunter63]

Find the pendent....and everything will be back to normal......Saw it on the TV

Bazinga!

[cwi555]

After all this information, seems that worrying about your red dot sights and such, will be the least of your worries......

For that reason, it's a real good idea to stay in practice with your iron sights.

[kyratshooter]

Don't worry, I put all the batteries in the microwave before I go to bed each night.

We do this one about ever 6 months. Same results each cycle.

Does anyone understand the meaning of the statement; "...low probability high impact affect. The commission will not assign a probability to it"

It means that the probability is so low the NASA computers will not assign it a risk factor.

I want one of those pendants!!! Do they make a keychain size?

[Delta 5168]

Anybody else catch the report on Fox about the new Boeing EMP missle? It totally cooked everything in it's test area plus a lot of cameras they had set up. Sorry, that's all I caught as I walked through the room at the time.

[cwi555]

Anybody else catch the report on Fox about the new Boeing EMP missle? It totally cooked everything in it's test area plus a lot of cameras they had set up. Sorry, that's all I caught as I walked through the room at the time.

Yes I saw it. It smoked everything. Old computers, new computers, coils, CRT screens, flat screens, a large number of hardened cameras, and that's just what they are releasing.

[kennethdnunn]

Don't worry, I put all the batteries in the microwave before I go to bed each night.

We do this one about ever 6 months. Same results each cycle.

Does anyone understand the meaning of the statement; "...low probability high impact affect. The commission will not assign a probability to it"

It means that the probability is so low the NASA computers will not assign it a risk factor.

I want one of those pendants!!! Do they make a keychain size?

If I read my history right the Government didn't put a high probability on Pearl Harbor attach either....for that matter the probability of levies in New Orleans giving way...
or Iran building Nuclear weapons....for that matter didn't they also say North Korea wasn't developing a nuclear weapon....I for would surly don't put much faith in what the Government says or don't say....when there is another World war I think HEMP will be the opening salvo...with the the Administration we now have in office I think there would be enough hesitation in retaliating that a first strike HEMP would cripple the U.S. Military. The Defense has stated that with electric power the military is dead in the water........I would bet the farm on the fact that the new China aircraft carrier and their air craft are EMP protected....my moto is prepare for the worse and anything less you can handle......

[ElevenBravo]

I put all the batteries in the microwave before I go to bed each night.

How long do you run your microwave? I tried it last night and they made a heck of a mess in there! Maybe 5 minutes is tooo long?


















































J/K

[hunter63]

LOL .....You beat me to it.........(need to clean off key board, now)