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  1. #41
    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    Everyone was dead then. No point in taking him out once the carnage is done. That would probably get YOU arrested for murder.
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  2. #42
    Super-duper Moderator Sarge47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Everyone was dead then. No point in taking him out once the carnage is done. That would probably get YOU arrested for murder.
    Probably, but the same thing would happen if I shot an innocent by-stander,not to mention the field day the "anti-gun nuts" are going to have! Anyway, I'm pretty sure that nobody was going to follow that fellow out the door to see if he sat down or not!
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  3. #43
    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    There's a difference between manslaughter/negligent homicide and murder. About 20 years if my math is right.
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  4. #44

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    I carry for several reasons, first and formost my safety, and the safety of my family And others around me if need be. I dont carry because its cool or a fad I dont carry to boost my ego. because of my bckground and training ( I wasnt always a welder)I find myself reacting to situations I dont have to just because its what I did for a long time , not firearms related but in general.
    If a person is trained ( professionaly trained and skilled ) and knows his abilitys then responding to a threath like this is acceptable.
    If the person carrying has no training but what was needed to pass the ccw then for gods sake run and hide and dont pull your weapon. I dont care if you have shot 10,000 rounds and hit 9,900 in the 10 ring. your still untrained period.
    I Wonder Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, "I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here, and drink what ever comes out?"

  5. #45
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    Some random thoughts. They may be germane, or maybe not.
    1) From what I have read and heard, in Israel there is high percentage (as compared to here) of the population that carry an automatic weapon all day, every day, in public, everywhere.
    2) My boys were attending high school in a small rural town in WY when Columbine occurred in neighboring CO. They expressed the belief, and I agreed, that such a situation would have been unlikely here. There was more firepower in the pickups parked in the high school parking lot than all of the local law enforcement regularly carried. And the drivers of those pickups, students and staff, probably shot far more often than local law enforcement did, shooting coyotes, other varmints and prairie dogs regularly on the way to and from school every day. A Columbine situation probably would not have been very successful from the perpetrators point of view.
    3) When I was in grade school, nearly every boy (and at least one girl that I knew) carried a knife. We played ‘mumbly-peg’ (a knife sticking game) at recess, sometimes with the playground supervisor!
    4) One of our school bus drivers regularly carried a shotgun on the bus in pheasant season (unloaded single shot with the action open and the ammo in his pocket); he rarely missed.
    Thoughts 2 through 4 occurred quite some time ago, in a world far different from our present one.

  6. #46
    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    Let me just offer that a weapon somewhere else (not on you) is of little use in an emergency like Columbine.
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  7. #47
    Super Moderator crashdive123's Avatar
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    My apologies for getting up today and not letting this go. I felt it important to address some of your points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge47 View Post
    And how would you feel if, just as you were squeezing the trigger somebody else jumped up right in front of you and took the bullet you had meant for him? And what if it, too, were a child? I don't know if CWs are allowed in Movie Theaters, but I can understand why they're not.
    I would feel terrible, but probably not as bad as I would if I could have done something and did not. Since we are talking what ifs how would you feel if you had the ability to stop him, decided not to do so out of your concern for "friendly fire" or prosecution , and he continued to shoot and kill everybody in the theater? What if some that were killed due to your inaction were family members? Again, all what ifs, but since we are talking hypothetical....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge47 View Post
    Really? Well, I usually wait until films hit the DVD market, and I see no reason to change. Crap happens and Murphy's law is everywhere. I can just visualize a big gunfight in a movie theater between somebody like that A-hole and a large number of CCWs. It staggers the mind.
    This is the identical argument that every single - without exception - anti gun group has used each and every time CCW laws are being discussed. I know that you probably hear a lot of it because of where you live, but the facts are - it hasn't happened. Ever. Look at the event that happened just days before this incident. http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-...162941656.html The occurrences of legally armed citizens thwarting tragedy happens a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge47 View Post
    No offense meant towards the shooting abilities of either Crash or CW, I'd trust Crash with a firearm more than I would anybody else that I can think of, it's just I can see a lot of problems in that situation. They said that right afterwards the guy went back outside, sat down, and waited for the police. That might have been the best time to take him out, when he was alone and there was not smoke or low-light conditions to impede vision or a packed to the gills auditorium to create collateral damage. I am surprised that there were no CCWs in the theater. I used to live in Colorado and I know for a fact that it's a big gun state.
    No offense taken. In an active shooter situation you don't know when the shooter will, or even if he/she will stop. Unless and until the threat is removed, the carnage will continue. What his reasoning is/was really isn't relevant. In this case, after shooting 70 (I believe that is the number being reported) he decided to stop. What if a person with a legally owned and carried weapon could have stopped him at 6? What if he continued to shoot until he had shot 200?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge47 View Post
    Probably, but the same thing would happen if I shot an innocent by-stander,not to mention the field day the "anti-gun nuts" are going to have! Anyway, I'm pretty sure that nobody was going to follow that fellow out the door to see if he sat down or not!
    The gun ban crowd will always use the occasion of a tragedy like this to try and enact more gun legislation. If you had shot him after he laid down his weapons and was no longer a threat, as gratifying as that may be to you, then you would be in the jail cell next to him.
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  8. #48
    Super-duper Moderator Sarge47's Avatar
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    Cool Hmmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by crashdive123 View Post
    My apologies for getting up today and not letting this go. I felt it important to address some of your points.
    Not a problem, I think that this is something positive that we can all get out of a tragic situation. This probably won't be the last time something like this is going to happen and going over it might help some on here to be better prepared.



    Quote Originally Posted by crashdive123 View Post
    I would feel terrible, but probably not as bad as I would if I could have done something and did not. Since we are talking what ifs how would you feel if you had the ability to stop him, decided not to do so out of your concern for "friendly fire" or prosecution , and he continued to shoot and kill everybody in the theater? What if some that were killed due to your inaction were family members? Again, all what ifs, but since we are talking hypothetical....
    Do you realize that it would not just be prosecution that you would have to worry about? If somebody did that to a child of mine they'd better be watching their back 24/7! I would feel that they were just as bad as the shooter.



    Quote Originally Posted by crashdive123 View Post
    This is the identical argument that every single - without exception - anti gun group has used each and every time CCW laws are being discussed. I know that you probably hear a lot of it because of where you live, but the facts are - it hasn't happened. Ever. Look at the event that happened just days before this incident. http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-...162941656.html The occurrences of legally armed citizens thwarting tragedy happens a lot.
    Agreed, however now they would have stronger evidence to further their cause. This is the exact same argument legislators are using here in Illinois to keep CC from becoming legal.



    Quote Originally Posted by crashdive123 View Post
    No offense taken. In an active shooter situation you don't know when the shooter will, or even if he/she will stop. Unless and until the threat is removed, the carnage will continue. What his reasoning is/was really isn't relevant. In this case, after shooting 70 (I believe that is the number being reported) he decided to stop. What if a person with a legally owned and carried weapon could have stopped him at 6? What if he continued to shoot until he had shot 200?
    I agree that if you could have stopped him at 6 then that would be better, but not at the expense of you accidently adding number 7.



    Quote Originally Posted by crashdive123 View Post
    The gun ban crowd will always use the occasion of a tragedy like this to try and enact more gun legislation. If you had shot him after he laid down his weapons and was no longer a threat, as gratifying as that may be to you, then you would be in the jail cell next to him.
    I wouldn't have shot him at all, I'd of been busy trying to get my family out of harms way, even if I had to shield them with my own body. Alone I might have done what you are proposing, I don't know.

    Perhaps living in Illinois too long has corrupted my thought processes. I have no doubt that if you were in that same type of situation that any fire you might have taken would have a 99% chance of succeeding without collateral damage. However, if you were shooting back here in Illinois and the police arrived while you were doing that they would probably assume you were also one of the shooters and shoot you down as well. They're not the "brightest crayons in the box," that's for sure.
    Last edited by Sarge47; 07-21-2012 at 09:31 AM.
    SARGE
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  9. #49

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    What will be learned from this tragic event and implamented now. The Hollywood bank of America shooting 400 cops called to deal with two well armed and protected gunmen shotguns and handguns couldn't stop them so they had to wait for swat who had long rifles and took rifles from sporting good stores to equalize. Now all patrol units across the US carry a long guns an ar or M-14. Columbine No one really new how to deal with this type of threat never saw anything like this before. Training for active shooter situations are now implamented across the us. Realistic training noise, stress tons of people running by you, smoke and lots of other factors. What type of training for future events will come from this. Makes you wonder why the world changes to be more like a battlefield, why can't it turn to the way of mayberry where the only thing to worry about is when is aunt bee's pie gona cool.

  10. #50

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    I would have tried something. I am just being realistic. he is almost entirely covered in Kevlar. You have to make a face shot in a dark packed to capacity theater with flash bangs going off and an active shooter with a carbine firing repeatedly into the crowd. If you sat toward the center of the theater you either have to run over the chairs down hill and through the crowd. Or, if you had the fore-thought to take an isle seat, you have to run against the fleeing crowd directly into the point of fire as he was targeting the people running in the isles.

    When Gabrielle Giffords was shot in Arizona the shooter was tackled by a CCW who was carrying at the time. Because that is what the situation dictated. If I was close enough that I could lunge. I certainly would and would definitely feel better at that range. But, even if you pull off getting inside his AR and he abandons that for his .40 he is still covered in Kevlar and you are not. You still need to try and stop him with a face shot. Your probably better off trying to relieve him of his firearms.

    I have studied close grappling with a handgun and firing from retention. How to create space and keep clear. If he had the .40 out you could try and grab and either take it out of battery by pushing the slide back or just averting the muzzle and waiting for him to fire and then when the gun jammed because the slide couldn't cycle get more aggressive. Might be better off trying to plunge my Spyderco Endura Wave into his face.

    BTW, I avoid theaters and stadiums all together. I also avoid malls and crowds. But, these types of shootings happen in small venues such as restaurants and offices as well. They are also with for the long term. We have average about 24 of these events a year and that average has been pretty steady over the last 4 decades. But, these types of events don't require modern firearms. An example would be the 2006 killings at Shiguan kindergarden. A knife and gasoline were used to kill 12 and injure 5.

    Here is a wiki with killers the type of weapon listed in the W column.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

  11. #51
    Senior Member Celticwarrior's Avatar
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    From the descriptions of the event from many of the witnesses, while he came in, popped smoke/gas from 2 cannisters, and then opened fire, first into the air to get people panicked and moving, then sweeping the crowd starting from the back of the theater and moving up to the front rows. He walked from the exit door on stage right to the middle of the screen and continued to fire at folks trying to escape at the left side of the theater. At that point, he was fully illuminated and they could see what he was wearing, though the smoke and tear gas made viewing difficult.

    Taking a shot when he was fully lit up in front of the screen would have been the time to get your best target. Starting with center mass (you don't know he has body armor on after all), you take a couple of paired shots at the chest. This may have been enough to knock him down. I haven't heard whether his tac vest had ballistic plates or not. If it was just a bulletproof vest in the class 2 or 3 range with no ceramic or steel plates to absorb impact, he probably would have been knocked flat or at least stunned by a couple of chest shots. People who have never taken a round while wearing kevlar don't realize how much it hurts and how big an impact it has on contact. It leaves a helluva bruise and can even crack ribs or sternum. Even if it didn't do damage due to his level of protection, it would turn his attention toward the shooter and away from others (including the shooters family who could make their getaway while the perp was occupied). The next shots might be in the legs (again, who would know he had groin and leg protection?) or the head (he had a ballistic helmet, but that doesn't provide much protection in a face-on assault), and I am willing to bet those would have more success. A head shot through the gas mask would likely be fatal, while a leg/groin shot would be debilitating. Leg armor doesn't usually have trauma plates, and it is not clear whether the groin protection he had was for blunt force or ballistic. Either way, it is usually far less effective than chest armor. It could have brought him to ground, at which point he might be subdued.

    It wouldn't have taken a crack shot to do any of this. Just someone who has been under fire before and knows how to act even in the middle of a firefight. With as many Iraq and Afghanistan combat vets as we have now (sadly), I am surprised that there wasn't one in the crowd, carrying a weapon. Sure, the average joe target shooter probably would have been freaked out by the gas and the dark and confusion, and it would have been hard to get an accurate shot, but those are the same conditions combat troops with urban counter-insurgency training have gone through and have probably seen in live combat situations. I'd say Holmes was extremely lucky he didn't pick a theater with more vets in it. This could have gone down in a totally different way with one or more combat trained soldiers with CCWs and weapons in the audience.
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  12. #52
    Senior Member BENESSE's Avatar
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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Everyone was dead then. No point in taking him out once the carnage is done. That would probably get YOU arrested for murder.
    In the United States, a civilian may legally use deadly force when it is considered justifiable homicide, that is to say when the civilian feels that their own life, the lives of their family, or those around them are in legitimate and imminent danger.

    He had more guns and ammo in his car. I am surprized the police did not take him out when they arrived.

  14. #54
    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    It will depend on each state's law. But I'll guarantee you that if you gun him down when he is no longer a threat you will be before a grand jury and there's a very good chance you will be remanded for trial.
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  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celticwarrior View Post
    The guy was a PhD grad student, no criminal record or mental illness history. There seems to be no particular reason for his rampage. He was armored (ballistics helmet, bulletproof vest and leggings, gas mask), well armed (Glock .40, AR 15, Shotgun), and had gas and smoke grenades that he popped as soon as he entered the theater showing Batman. Now, someone HAD to have seen this guy dressed like something out of Mad Max walking into the building and all the way to the theater, but no one stopped him or called the cops immediately? Many people are already asking why wasn't ANYONE armed in there that could stop this guy, but I think the reason is that they were IN A MOVIE THEATER! Who expects a shooting spree to break out there??? Sadly for the 50 people injured and dozen folks killed so far (including a 6 year old kid) nobody WAS able to stop him.

    As for why he did it? CRAZY. He had dyed his hair red and told arresting officers that he was the FREAKIN' JOKER!!! Whackjob!

    So I guess the moral of the story is a) always go to social events armed to the teeth of b) become a hermit and wait for everything to come out on Netflix.

    PS: Romney has now officially pulled all his ads from Colorado. Wonder what he was saying in those ads that he thought he needed to yank them in light of the shootings?
    CW, I'm writing 24 hrs after the fact. The reports that I heard said that a lot of people were in "costume" in the crowd waiting to get in to the movie. That may have been one factor that helped him "blend-in".

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    It will depend on each state's law. But I'll guarantee you that if you gun him down when he is no longer a threat you will be before a grand jury and there's a very good chance you will be remanded for trial.
    Yes you will be sitting in a prison cell here in CO for shooting him when he is not presenting a threat.

  17. #57

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    I find it very ironic that after every mass shooting, the first thing that you hear is " if there had only been someone there with a gun to shoot him and stop the killing". These are the same bleeding hearts who try everything in their power to gut the 2nd amendment.

  18. #58
    Super-duper Moderator Sarge47's Avatar
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    Cool Hmmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    It will depend on each state's law. But I'll guarantee you that if you gun him down when he is no longer a threat you will be before a grand jury and there's a very good chance you will be remanded for trial.
    The key phrase there is "When he no longer is a threat." Let's see, the guy just shot around 70 people and went back out. For all anyone knows he is reloading and getting ready to come back in. Also, there were a total of four movie theaters in this Cinimaplex showing the same film, all sold out! He's already signaled his intent to shoot to kill, who's to say he isn't getting ready to go into another one? If you blow him away before the cops arrive who's to say that he's no longer a threat? The guy was still armed, had more ammo in his vehicle, and was sitting down, maybe taking a breather before shooting some more people. The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant! I wouldn't do it, but just sayin'...
    SARGE
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  19. #59
    Senior Member Celticwarrior's Avatar
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    I'd make sure they found his pistol or rifle in his dead cold hand and then they can try to prove I didn't just outdraw him. Of course, if he wasn't taken alive, no one would have known about the boobytrapped apartment and more people would have died.
    "A free citizenry should never abide a government that seeks control over it's people rather than service to them"

  20. #60
    Super-duper Moderator Sarge47's Avatar
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    Cool Hmmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticwarrior View Post
    I'd make sure they found his pistol or rifle in his dead cold hand and then they can try to prove I didn't just outdraw him. Of course, if he wasn't taken alive, no one would have known about the boobytrapped apartment and more people would have died.
    Good point! However I was just speaking to the legality of the situation. Come to think of it, nobody would have known about the booby-trapped apartment if he'd been shot and killed inside either...you make a good point all the way around!
    SARGE
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    Proud father of a US Marine....SEMPER FI!

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