Can a gun that handles .454 Casull also theoretically handle .444 Marlin?

[sgtdraino]

Here is my scenario:

Taurus recently introduced the Raging Judge Magnum, a revolver designed to fire .45 Colt, 3" .410 shells, and .454 Casull. Thus, we have a cylinder capable of handling cartridges that are 3" long, in a pistol that is capable of handling the pressures generated by the mighty .454 Casull. So, this got me thinking...

According to my research, .454 Casull generates pressures of around 65,000 psi. .444 Marlin only generates pressures around 45,000 psi. I am told that the .444 Marlin casing is basically the same dimensions as a .410 casing, and that some people even make .410 ammo by reloading .444 Marlin casings.

So...

Do the experts here think that the Raging Judge Magnum should also be able to safely fire .444 Marlin? Is there some factor that I'm missing? Perhaps due to slight differences in dimensions? Here are the numbers (from wikipedia, except for .410):

.444 Marlin
Bullet diameter .429 in (10.9 mm)
Neck diameter .4530 in (11.51 mm)
Base diameter .4706 in (11.95 mm)
Rim diameter .5140 in (13.06 mm)
Rim thickness .0630 in (1.60 mm)
Case length 2.250 in (57.2 mm)
Overall length 2.55 in (65 mm)

.454 Casull
Bullet diameter .452 in (11.5 mm)
Neck diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Base diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Rim diameter .512 in (13.0 mm)
Rim thickness .057 in (1.4 mm)
Case length 1.383 in (35.1 mm)
Overall length 1.77 in (45 mm)

.45 Colt
Bullet diameter .454 (lead), .451 (jacketed)
Neck diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Base diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Rim diameter .512 in (13.0 mm)
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.285 in (32.6 mm)
Overall length 1.600 in (40.6 mm)

.410 Bore
Rim diameter .533" 13.35 mm
Head OD 9.4685" head OD 11.91 mm
Mouth 0.4675-0.4630 11.57-11.87 mm
Length 2," 2 ½," 3" 51, 64, 76 mm

[SARKY]

obviously the .44 bullet will rattle down the barrel, but all other things considered if the cylinder is long enough and rated for the pressure, it should work.

[hunter63]

Intresting concept, appears from the spec's that it would fit.
I'm all about versatile cambering being able to fire several calibers/ammo's.

I'm not real sure if I would try it, or for what purpose...only that it could be done, maybe, for versatility purposes.

Did a little looking around, didn't come up with much.......so I guess I'll defer at this point.

[sgtdraino]

obviously the .44 bullet will rattle down the barrel,

Obviously, yes.

but all other things considered if the cylinder is long enough and rated for the pressure, it should work.

That's what I was thinking. The only thing I was still wondering about, is if there is any issue with the casing being sliiiiiiiightly smaller than a .45 casing, mainly at the bullet-end. I guess this would allow the casing to expand more than it normally would. Is that bad? In theory I guess the casing could split, maybe? Might possibly be hard to get out of the cylinder? I dunno, what you guys think?

Intresting concept, appears from the spec's that it would fit.
I'm all about versatile cambering being able to fire several calibers/ammo's.

I'm not real sure if I would try it, or for what purpose...only that it could be done, maybe, for versatility purposes.

Well, I would think you could reload .444 with an actual .45 bullet. Maybe a .45-70 bullet? Then you'd essentially have a straight-cased .45-70 cartridge. I feel like I heard .45-70 is potentially capable of superior range, compared to .454.

As for my own reasons, it's pretty much just entertainment value. One of the reasons I'm purchasing this gun, is as a somewhat more "sensible" replacement for my Thunder Five. The Thunder Five is another .45/.410 revolver, which actually IS capable of shooting .45-70, if you swap out the cylinder with the .45-70 cylinder. So far as practicality goes, the Thunder Five has almost none (particularly firing .45-70), as its barrel is only about 2" long and has almost no rifling. Really, really, really not accurate at all.

Nevertheless, when I have company over to come shoot, the Thunder Five is always the gun the folks remember. They never forget holding that thing, shooting that gigantic .45-70 cartidge out of it, and getting to keep that large casing as a souvenier. There is value in that! The gun is, more-or-less, a conversation piece.

Now, the Raging Judge Magnum has a 6.5" barrel, and I'm expecting quite a bit more accuracy out of it. Especially with stuff like .45 Colt and .454 Casull. Better patterns with the .410 too, I imagine. And yet, I am going to miss shooting that GIGANTIC .45-70 bullet when we have company over. Sure, in many ways .454 is more powerful than .45-70, but size-wise, place the two cartridges next to each other, and the .45-70 just LOOKS way more impressive.

So, I don't really care if the .444 Marlin bullet rattles down the barrel. It can't POSSIBLY be any less accurate than the Thunder Five. Mainly I'm just looking for a gigantic cartridge that I can fire out of this new gun.

[hunter63]

I hear ya, there is always the "Cool" factor....It doesn't have to have a use....Just be cool.
So are you getting rid of the Thunder Five?

I sure the smaller case will form to the cylinder chamber, shooting .32 S&W's in 1985 Nagant 7 shooter works, but deforms the case.
Sometimes it makes it hard to punch them out, although I haven't had one split yet on new ammo.....There isn't any fired cases to reload because of this.

[SemperFi]

Im curious as to your plans for this gun? Is this going to be a primary hunting revolver? strictly bear protection? or multi purpose? I mean messing around with rounds can be very dangerous , I understand what your saying , the psi is well under that of the 454 ,and the dimensions are pretty close (under) , but the .454 round is plentiful , and it isnt any more (recoil) wise than the .44 magnum , so just what are you looking at?

[sgtdraino]

I hear ya, there is always the "Cool" factor....It doesn't have to have a use....Just be cool.

Exactly!

So are you getting rid of the Thunder Five?

We haven't decided yet. It is a terribly impractical gun, and yet we are pretty attached to it. It is possibly my wife's second-favorite firearm out of all the guns we own. We'll probably hold on to it for at least a little while, to compare these two giant revolvers to each other.

I sure the smaller case will form to the cylinder chamber, shooting .32 S&W's in 1985 Nagant 7 shooter works, but deforms the case.
Sometimes it makes it hard to punch them out, although I haven't had one split yet on new ammo.....There isn't any fired cases to reload because of this.

I can live with that. I do not reload. Not yet, anyway.

Im curious as to your plans for this gun? Is this going to be a primary hunting revolver? strictly bear protection? or multi purpose?

Multi-purpose. I've always liked the idea of a pistol that can also be a shotgun, and originally got the Thunder Five for that reason... but quickly realized that the short barrel really limits its usefulness. I'd been toying with the idea of getting a Taurus Judge for a long time since then. Initially I didn't like that The Judge could only take 2.5" shells, and often could only be found with a shorter barrel (though still a longer barrel than the Thunder Five). Then, a while back, I heard that they were now making Judges that could handle 3" shells. Then, quite recently, a friend of ours purchased a Judge, and reignited my interest in the gun. I casually did some research, and that was when I discovered the all new Raging Judge Magnum, which seems to give me pretty much everything I want from this sort of gun and more: Long barrel, 3" shells, but also the REAL knockdown power of .454 Casull... and even six rounds instead of five!

I mean messing around with rounds can be very dangerous , I understand what your saying , the psi is well under that of the 454 ,and the dimensions are pretty close (under) , but the .454 round is plentiful , and it isnt any more (recoil) wise than the .44 magnum , so just what are you looking at?

Like hunter said, just the "cool" factor of shooting a giant cartridge out of this gun. I won't be messing around with modifying the cartridge, like I said, I don't reload.

[hunter63]

I'm thinking to hang on to the Thunder Five....sounds like you (or DW, LOL) will miss it.

In the past I have gotten a case of the guilt's with a new purchase, gotten rid of something to ease my practical side...only to regret it later.

Now it's just "what the heck, not getting any younger, this is the rainy day I was waiting for, so just go for it"...mode most of the time.

As far as accuracy with the short barrel, big shell, guns....My experiance it's hard to hit much of anything with your eyes closed ....head tucked under your other arm.........LOL...yeah, Fun.

[kyratshooter]

Now it's just "what the heck, not getting any younger, this is the rainy day I was waiting for, so just go for it"...mode most of the time.

I have gotten the same way Hunter. Besides, my money is worth less tomorrow than it is today. While others buy gold I am buying guns. At least I can enjoy them. All you can do with gold is polish it and hide it under the floorboards.

[hunter63]

I have gotten the same way Hunter. Besides, my money is worth less tomorrow than it is today. While others buy gold I am buying guns. At least I can enjoy them. All you can do with gold is polish it and hide it under the floorboards.

LOL Yeah, precious metals to me is brass and lead

[natertot]

For safety sake, NO! look at the side of the firearm. What ever calibur it says is what you should shoot. Anything else is dangerous and is not worth life or limb.

[sgtdraino]

For safety sake, NO! look at the side of the firearm. What ever calibur it says is what you should shoot. Anything else is dangerous and is not worth life or limb.

I think that's a little bit simplistic. Look at your .357 Magnum revolver. Does it also say ".38 Special" on the side? Probably not. But we all know that it can shoot .38 Special as well, because the cartridge fits in the cylinder, and is less powerful than .357 Magnum.

[ni5111]

cool so are you a trooper

[natertot]

I think that's a little bit simplistic. Look at your .357 Magnum revolver. Does it also say ".38 Special" on the side? Probably not. But we all know that it can shoot .38 Special as well, because the cartridge fits in the cylinder, and is less powerful than .357 Magnum.

Actually, it is simplistic. .38 is actually .357 in diameter, but was given .38 so people wouldn't try to put .357 magnums in them. That is why it works to put a .38 in a .357mag. Much like using .22 short, long, and long rifle in the same revolver that says .22lr. .444 Marlin and .454 casull have too big of a difference in diameter to do this. Also a 9mm luger is about .355, would you try it in your .357 "because it fits"?

I'm not trying to sound harsh. I work at a hospital and I see what happens when people get an idea to do something with a gun that isn't right. I am also a gun enthusiast and I hate when people injure themselves and the media goes and says "see, guns really are bad". I also take safety very seriously. If you want to shoot a gun, get the right ammo and put your family and life insurance agent at ease.

[sgtdraino]

Actually, it is simplistic. .38 is actually .357 in diameter, but was given .38 so people wouldn't try to put .357 magnums in them. That is why it works to put a .38 in a .357mag. Much like using .22 short, long, and long rifle in the same revolver that says .22lr. .444 Marlin and .454 casull have too big of a difference in diameter to do this. Also a 9mm luger is about .355, would you try it in your .357 "because it fits"?

No, because it fits AND creates less pressure than .454 Casull.

I'm not trying to sound harsh. I work at a hospital and I see what happens when people get an idea to do something with a gun that isn't right. I am also a gun enthusiast and I hate when people injure themselves and the media goes and says "see, guns really are bad". I also take safety very seriously. If you want to shoot a gun, get the right ammo and put your family and life insurance agent at ease.

And I'm not taking your warning lightly. But I want more specific information than just "that's dangerous, don't do it," or "only shoot what's written on the side of the barrel" (which, as I demonstrated, is not even true all the time). Respectfully, seeing people with gun injuries does not make you an expert on what is and is not safe to shoot. Maybe you ARE an expert on these things, maybe you know specifically why it would be dangerous to shoot .444 Marlin in a .454 Casull gun. If you do, please elaborate. If it really is dangerious, I want specifics. At least enough specifics to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about.

[natertot]

I never claimed to be an expert as I am not. If you want that kind of an in-depth explaination, I would contact a ballistics company or even the gun manufacturer. My statements purely reflect my training, education, and what I've seen others do. The most recent issue is when a guy put a blank in a revolver and stuffed the barrel with a few buckshot pellets. Pressure went up and the gun was severly damaged. The guy was lucky as his half severed finger was saved and the chunck that hit his chest was blocked by a bone.

Maybe your theory will work, I never did say that it wouldn't. I just don't think the risk is worth the reward. Not that I am always a follow the crowd kind of guy, but if no one else is doing it, there is probly good reason for it. If you do find out specifics, I would be interested in knowing though.

[sgtdraino]

I never claimed to be an expert as I am not. If you want that kind of an in-depth explaination, I would contact a ballistics company or even the gun manufacturer.

A company is going to say whatever covers their own ***. I think I could get better information from experienced reloaders.

The most recent issue is when a guy put a blank in a revolver and stuffed the barrel with a few buckshot pellets. Pressure went up and the gun was severly damaged.

That's called being a dumbass. As others have said, the .444 bullet is slightly smaller than a .45, so if anything the pressure will be even less than if it properly conformed to the barrel.

I just don't think the risk is worth the reward.

What risk? That's what I'm trying to find out. Heck, there is a small amount of risk every time you fire a gun. You could have faulty ammunition, or the gun could have a defect you aren't aware of. If there truly is a real danger in firing .444 out of this gun, beyond "it isn't written on the barrel," I definitely want to know about it.

If you do find out specifics, I would be interested in knowing though.

You bet! If folks around here aren't sure, anybody got any recommendations for a forum that would have the sort of experts that could give me a more definitive answer?

[rebel]

You could tie a string to the trigger, stand back and let it fly.

[SemperFi]

Raging Judge Magnum, I havent even heard of this gun , I too was very interested in the Judge when it came out but like you didnt really like the small barrel , but this has intrigued me !!!!! I will be looking for this gun now (I too believe in guns & ammo over silver & gold) I will say one thing , the 9mm series has several rounds of which none are compatable 9x23 , 9x19 (luger) ,9x18 (makarov) , 9x17 (.380) , I dont believe any of them are interchangable , I wouldnt advise shooting a mak round through glock 17 or a luger through a cz-82 , just saying , but I do understand what you're saying with the .444 , I would check with some of the reloading forums out there , thats where the best information is for switching calibers!

The 6" version includes a vent-rib for use with a scope mount. I LIKE!!!!It is a monster !!!OMG if you guys havent seen this thing take a gander

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-judge-magnum/

[natertot]

You could tie a string to the trigger, stand back and let it fly.

I like this idea. Be sure to stand behind a piece of plexiglass or a tree, even from a little distance. This way, at most you'll only be out a gun. Just be careful. I have to say it because of possible risks. If you go through with, could you video it?