Winter indoor garden

[trax]

I do? I thought that was the Shadow...{{who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!}}

[coldkill13]

There's an overpopulation of deer across North America because of the decimation of predators, not the other way around. Anyplace they say that coyotes are outnumbering deer never had deer in the first place.

Actually the hunting around here used to be excellent. Its strange; the deer population in suburban areas are skyrocketing while the more rural areas (like those we hunt on) are severely declining. I guess it's not really "strange"; its actually somewhat understandable. And I will say this, the coyotes aren't soley to blame for this, the DNR are also guilty(But the coyotes aren't helping!). A few years ago, the DNR took a survey of the local deer population at a nearby metropark . Their results were flawed because they took this survey right smack in the middle of deer hunting season. The metropark is touching a state owned "recreation area" as they call it, which is really a big piece of public hunting and fishing land. The recreation area is touching our land. So while hunters are actively pursuing game on this land, the deer are flocking to the metro park--a no hunting zone. It is estimated that their rusults could be over 50% off. So, in an effort to protect an endangered plant species in the metropark, the DNR ordered a team of sharpshooters (And yes, when confronted they will tell you they hired sharpshooters) be called in to "thin out" the deer heard. They had dumptrucks full of corn hauled in for bait and the sharp shooters were ordered to kill any deer they had a shot at. Keep in mind all this was being paid for by our licence fee's. They, apparently, could not have simply installed a game fence or an electric fence around their precious plants. Thats what happens when a bunch of tree huggers get in the DNR. And dont get me wrong, I believe in land conservation and well regulated wildlife management more than most, but a mass extermination of these deer is not the right solution to the problem. While they were willing to put so much effort into saving their plants, they wont do anything to help prevent the coyotes from destroying what deer we have left. Why wouldnt they have just issued more doe tags the next year to help manage them? And heres a better question; Why not host a hadicapped/disabled hunt at the metropark? They could actually have made money off that! The park has paved trails so it is quite easily handicapp accessable. We need to get some good-natured folks with some common sense in the DNR. Heck, maybe I'll rethink my career!

[coldkill13]

Electric fencing, electric fencing, electric fencing is all I can say regarding deer, moose, coyotes, wolves and bears. It works, doesn't cost much, is extremely low maintenance, and you don't have to go around maiming wildlife.

How would an elctric fence look around my flower garden in my front yard? Besides the neighborhood bylaws do not allow elctric fencing to be installed. Even if I could, what if they dig under it? Plug their holes? They'll dig new ones! And that means maintenance to me... And by the way, I'm not "maiming wildlife", I'm actively trying to manage the out of control varmint population in my area. The manner in which these animals are killed is also completely humane (unlike most "humane" shelters that gas dogs and cats if they cannot find a home for them).

[Rick]

Or......use an invisible fence like the ones they use for dogs and then get collars for all the raccoons, weasels, gophers, groundhogs, cheetahs, rabbits, squirrels...you get the picture.

[trax]

Just a couple of thoughts

a. I don't know diddly about what the deer population is in the suburbs cuz I don't live in a suburb but I wouldn't be surprised if they're moving in...who isn't?
b. Wildlife doesn't need management except when people start interfering with them
c. Every study I've ever seen done on predators affect on wildlife populations,has concluded that the wild predators don't have near the effect that mankind has.
d. I'm really glad to hear you don't maim wildlife...nothing could piss me off more.

[wildWoman]

How would an elctric fence look around my flower garden in my front yard? Besides the neighborhood bylaws do not allow elctric fencing to be installed. Even if I could, what if they dig under it? Plug their holes? They'll dig new ones! And that means maintenance to me... And by the way, I'm not "maiming wildlife", I'm actively trying to manage the out of control varmint population in my area. The manner in which these animals are killed is also completely humane (unlike most "humane" shelters that gas dogs and cats if they cannot find a home for them).

Glad to hear you're not maiming wildlife, actually I didn't mean that as a personal remark but the "you" as in "people" since this topic came up before in other posts! I just know too many people up here who shoot at moose with a shotgun or .22 when they get into their gardens, and it ticks me off.
Actually electric fencing comes in different versions, some of it looks like ribbons not wire, and if installed low in enough, animals will get zapped as they attempt to dig under it (guess voles and gophers wouldn't, I mean anything from cat size up). Do the by-laws allow for you to shoot animals within a populated area?
Also could the deer's habitat be shrinking because it's being ripped up, paved over or sprayed with herbicides?
I don't mean to say you're wrong and I'm right, I've never set foot in the area you live in, I just prefer to find ways to co-exist with critters whenever possible rather than shoot or trap them, and not necessarily find fault with them for whatever makes a problem for me. But I also set traps for mice and voles in the garden and greenhouse.

[Rick]

You go girl. Bzzzzzzt. Ow! Da**ed fence. You gotta do something about that or I'm gonna stop comin' over! (rubbing his leg and limping).

[trax]

Also could the deer's habitat be shrinking because it's being ripped up, paved over or sprayed with herbicides?

Oh yes. Agriculture, mining, forestry, urban sprawl, it's not just the deer's habitat getting shredded; it's the deer, the coyotes, the moose, the muskrat, the beaver, the wolf, the eagle...me!

[coldkill13]

First of all, shooting at an animal with no intent to kill it is just wrong, infact I'd consider that torture. Have you ever contacted the DNR about the problem with people shooting at the moose? The DNR in Michigan is near useless but I still contact them about poaching whenever I witness it (Which is actually quite often, and even though they know exactly who it is since he's a convicted felon and he has been caught poaching many times before, they still do nothing). Every animal I shoot, I shoot with the full intent of killing it as quickly as possible. And no, the by-laws do not permit us to even discharge a firearm in our neighborhood, but they also do not permit trapping(lethal or non-lethal), fencing, etc. Their rules give us very little options for taking care of these pests. While electric fencing may be more 'humane' , its also easier for my neighbors to detect than an occasional single shot.

Secondly, of course the depleting deer population is partially because of human interaction, but they have well over 1000 acres of unsettled land in just one single clump next to our property. This land is supplemented with apple trees, oak trees, pines, fileds, ponds, and constant feeding. None of this land is sprayed with herbicides or pesticides, and none of it is mined or logged. I'm not trying to say that people aren't doing more harm than good for these animals, but this land has gone virtually unchanged for the last 50 years. Up untill now, the deer have maintained a fairly large heard and the hunting has been excellent. In many areas of the country, people are more to blame than anything else for the destruction of habbitat. But here, I believe it is more to blame on the coyotes (and the DNR).

[trax]

I'm not trying to pick on you here coldkill and your points are all valid, but you're talking about 1000 acres. I was talking about 7,000,000 square miles and obviously there's plenty of wild lands left, but our encroachment on those areas isn't exactly slowing down. Just a quick for instance, moose in northern Manitoba are starting to be found with diseases that were specific to deer in southern Manitoba for as long as people kept track of that sort of thing.This after two power grids are cut right across the bottom two thirds of the province. These things happen over a generation or two, but they still happen.

[coldkill13]

Alls I was trying to say was that the coyote and varmint problem in my area is getting out of hand. Maybe it is because of people taking over their habitats. Maybe its because theres not enough people around here that practice active game management. But more likely it's a combination of both. I mean, theres no doubt about it; we took their land. But theres no reason that we cannot live in harmony with them(Eww... That sounded way too Hippie!). This means effective wildlife management, land conservation, and active particiapation by hunters and outdoorsmen alike. We'll never be able to stop urban expansion, but we can set aside land just to provide a habitat for wildlife. While the 1000 acres I mentioned above refers only to a single clump of land near ours, I see your point. Untill we unite and take action against the destruction of habitat, I have no choice other than to take matters into my own hands in an effort to re-estabolish a balanced ecosystem.

[Rick]

or to keep them out of the garden, whichever comes first.

[trax]

No argument out of me coldkill, but yeah you were starting to sound a little Hippie there for a bit, LOL (constantly monitoring myself for that) I just don't see it happening, people don't unite for much of anything, can't see past the ends of their own noses, nevertheless....

The critters are going to try to get at your garden because it's their nature to eat, I certainly think you have a right to protect your crop. And if I didn't eat wild meat I probably would have starved to death a number of years ago, so I sure don't criticize anyone else for hunting, but I do believe in one shot one kill. (well except for birds and a shotgun, one shot multiple kills)

[bulrush]

Rick, I think I may have left something out. We built a fence to keep the deer out of the garden but the racoons and groudhogs have dug under it. We'll put a rock in their hole and they dig a new one. It's them we shoot in the back yard, not the deer. The problem we have with the coyotes is that they're destroying our deer population. There's carcasses all over and the hunting is going down the drain.

Coldkill, I don't understand why you are killing coyotes because, in the lower peninsula (LP) there are major deer problems and overpopulation. Are you in the western UP? I think that's the only area with coyotes.

The situation is so bad that even auto insurance companies are concerned because there are so many car-deer accidents each year. Please please please come to the LP and shoot as many as you want.

At my previous house the deer were the biggest (animal) problem, eating most of our bushes during the winter.

[coldkill13]

Coldkill, I don't understand why you are killing coyotes because, in the lower peninsula (LP) there are major deer problems and overpopulation. Are you in the western UP? I think that's the only area with coyotes.

The situation is so bad that even auto insurance companies are concerned because there are so many car-deer accidents each year. Please please please come to the LP and shoot as many as you want.

At my previous house the deer were the biggest (animal) problem, eating most of our bushes during the winter.

No, I'm not in the western UP, but believe me, they're not the only ones with a coyote problem. I've heard that the overpopulation of coyotes is more of a problem in our county than any other in michigan. Infact, my instructor made it one of his "In the news" topics awile back. I cant even remember the last time I've heard of a car accident involving a deer in our area. Deer used to be a problem in our garden, but a bright white painted wood fence around it seems to deter them completely.

Theres people in our neighborhood that have pictures of a coyote with what appears to be a cat in its mouth. I've also been seeing an increasingly growing number of 'lost pet' signs around our neighborhood. You cant deny that coyotes are known for attacking pets. Like I said in an earlier post, the coyotes arent the only reason for the decline in our game numbers, but they're a major contributor.

[wildWoman]

how did we get on to this topic anyway?? It started as an innocent post about growing veggies inside the house....hey, there's the solution right there: no critters will get to them

[canid]

unless you're one very poor housekeeper...

[Sourdough]

WildWomen, You might check out www.bearridgeproject.com He is doing several post on food plants.

[wareagle69]

well to continue with the real topic here my lettuce spinach and tomatoes are now sprouting now what do i do?

[Rick]

You want to thin them to the strongest tomato plant. If you don't, they will crowd themselves out. It's easy if you just snip the plants off with a pair of scissors. That way you don't disturb the root ball and/or any roots that might have grown together. Here's a link that talks about it.

http://growing-tomatoes.blogs.com/

As for the spinach and lettuce, same thing.

Are you growing leaf lettuce or head lettuce?

Depending on how big your spinach and lettuce sprouts are, drop the cuttings in a salad and enjoy. You'll be eating your first harvest!!