Survival Training Scenario

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I enjoyed the exercise PGV. There are a few that weighed in I'd love to take down in Sparkleberry Swamp with their compasses, Park the boat and say your turn to drive take us back to the landing. Understanding of the direction the current flows, the knowledge of the river that flows through the swamp. The growth of old woods and even the color of the sand bars is how I navigate it. A man over 50 dies there every year. It was my primary incentive for joining this website. Dead reckoning is out the window...there are no land marks. Moss grows on all sides of all trees. If you go in Sparkleberry you go prepared...period.

[pgvoutdoors]

There are a few that weighed in I'd love to take down in Sparkleberry Swamp with their compasses, Park the boat and say your turn to drive take us back to the landing.

I understand your feelings Cowboy. Some people feel that mistakes are only made by total idiots. It's "That would never happen to Me" way of thinking. Or, when the WTSHTF I'll just use my gun to solve all my problems. All I can figure is they just don't really know what it's like to be in the real Sh**.

As a guide I've seen a lot of mistakes made by people trying to have a good time in the wilderness. The scenario has some of the most common mistakes people make, there is nothing unrealistic about it. Search and rescue teams see it all the time.

For all of you that haven't ever had to work with others while in the wilderness, it's not much different than the people you may work with every day. Do you believe all of them make the best decisions in work and life? I'm sure all of you can think of someone you like but would never want to work with. These types of people are the ones that become liabilities in the woods as well. Unless people have been trained to think alike, most people respond to a situation differently. Woodsman skills are learned and reinforced by experience just like other life skills. So when looking at a training scenario, look at it through your eyes first and then the eyes of different types of people.

We all know the world doesn't all think alike. Put together any group of four people and you will have major differences in the way they approach a problem. The goal here is to approach the scenario in as many ways as possible. What could have that person been thinking? What could he have done differently? What would you have done to avoid the problems the people in the scenario were having. Remember, if the trip went perfect, there wouldn't be anything to discuss.

[pgvoutdoors]

The main point Cowboy hit on was knowing how to navigate. John didn't have a compass with him, it could of been because he forgot to bring one or (and this is more common than you may think) he didn't carry one because he doesn't know how to use one. Too many people lack even the most basic of land navigation skills. The main reason is, it takes time to learn. Most people will not practice to the point that they are confidant with their skills.

John did take the map but it didn't seemed to give him much help. As cowboy stated, good observation skills is one of the best navigation tools. The one reference John did choose to use was the sun, but that has been pointed out to be a moving reference, very hard to navigate by.

John pictured in his mind the new location he wanted to fish by looking at the map. That mental picture didn't seem to match up with what he saw while looking for it. Poor map reading skills could of contributed to that. He also could have been way off course due to his navigation by the sun.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Let' say you have a compass and your an expert at due South, It doesnt matter much if both sides of the landing are due south and an infinate swamp is on both sides of the ramp your still cold and your still soon to be dead...Know where you are to start with...don't get lost..lost in Sparkleberry isn't really an option.

[pgvoutdoors]

Well, no one wants to be lost and most don't set-out to be lost either. I agree, there are many places in the world where it's best not to get your self lost and in those places your odds of survival are slim at best. A survivor never gives up though!

As Cowboy points out, compass skills alone will not be much help in those kind of places. His skills of observation seem to be his key to staying on course. Knowing what to look for and keeping track of where you are will go a long way.

Another key point - always stay within your abilities.

[FVR]

And this is the reason I don't hike, hunt, or go wilderness stomping with numptys. Been there, done that, had to travel over 2 mountains to find a so called seasoned hunter.

[SARKY]

Compasses and maps for everyone. Maybe even A gps. A full pocket survival kit. One extra map in camp to show where you plan on going marked on the map. Some form of comunication or signal system all prearranged.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

It should be mentioned that in the north the sun will be in a southerly direction at noon and if its starting to get dark at 5 oclock you are well into November. Just saying.

[TAHAWK]

Very open scenario.

You could discuss what was done wrong by John, the group of two, the group of three, and the entire group -- both before they left and at various points in time.

You could discuss what John should have done instead at various points, and ditto for the Group of Two and Group of Three (which we left lost away from camp and arguing)

We don't know if he has the means to start a fire. What should he have?

In a teaching situation, the learners may take the discussion one way or another, but all good if learning is going on.

[Wildthang]

I could list an entire page of what these guys did wrong, but that is too much work, so instead I will sum it up in the condensed version:

1. Lack of planning, basicall no plan at all.

2. Lack of experience, apparently no experience at all.

3. Lack of proper gear for survival, experience would have fixed that problem!

All other mistakes would fit somewhere into these categorys!

[Batch]

A man over 50 dies there every year.

Cowboy, what does that mean?

http://www.midlandsconnect.com/news/...7#.UU8VwFdTmdw

I assume you are talking about the 1 guy I could find an article about dying between the landing and his camp. Since he regularly camped in the same spot (half of his 51 years) and he was found between his normal camp and the place he normally put in. I would bet it is REAL safe to say he wasn't lost. While I didn't see a mention of the cause of death it seems the Sparkleberry swamp had little to do with his death. I have never been to that particular swamp. But, most swamps I have been in don't have very strong currents. That is how they become swamps. This guy was found against a tree less than 100 yards from where his canoe was found and he was found in 4' of water.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories...t_283830.shtml

This article says he drowned. He didn't die of hypothermia. He drowned in relatively shallow water. He didn't have a life vest on. The cause of his death wasn't the swamp. It was improper boater safety. A guy who has been canoeing for 25 years probably could right a canoe in 4' of water. I would bet it was compounded by a heart attack or something. My wife's boss died from drowning caused by a heart attack. He was kayaking with a friend. The friend looked back and saw Ron face down in the water while still in his kayak. He was wearing a PDF, but because he was still in his kayak the vest couldn't right him.

Any articles about people actually being lost in Sparkleberry?

As for the scenario outlined, I go out in pretty vast areas in the everglades region. I go out with a mix of true gladesmen, self proclaimed country boys and some true woodsmen as well as inexperienced people. Most people don't carry anything of use in this scenario. Folks who smoke will have a lighter usually. though I have had folks that smoke ask for a light. LOL

The ones who do carry a compass, a firestarter or some means of signalling usually don't practice with it very much if at all. I see people walk off into the woods with nothing but a half liter bottle of water all the time. In a place where the heat can kill and a minimum of one gallon per person is the recommended amount.

I have three signal mirrors in my pack. One is a small rescue medic I think that I cut down to fit into a Newt Livesay knife kit. The other two are a lexan 2.75 X 4.25" by ACR and a 3" X 5' glass signal mirror by Star something or another. Which one is the best signal mirror and how do I know?

I have half a dozen or more signal whistles. Which one is the loudest?

I can navigate fairly well by the sun. But, how do I know? Because I regularly test myself and others and then use the compass to verify. Starting in camp when people go to pitch their tent and want to find a shady spot. You'll see them go to set up where their tent will get full sun. Which way is east? LOL

Like I have posted here before people walk or ride out into the swamp down here and never come back. Imagine you walk off of the main road into an area 100 yards from your friends. You get turned around and fire 3 shots in the air with your 12 gauge. They fire back in return. They can even hear your yells. At night you can hear the traffic on the interstate and on Turner River Road. This is the beginning of your 4 day ordeal in the Big Cypress Swamp.

“I never saw woods like these woods before,” Mosch said of the Everglades. “This is something like you’d see in hell. Think of the worst jungle you can imagine and times it by 10.”

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/...-everglades-p/

“Until you’ve been there, you won’t believe how mean the Big Cypress is and how hard you need to prepare for a trip,” Cooper offers. “Last year it took us 2 1/2 hours to go 2 1/2 miles. We know this because we tracked our progress using a GPS.”

http://www.gameandfishmag.com/2010/0..._fl_aa080904a/

"It's pretty treacherous here at night with the mosquitoes," said Lt. Mike Marks, of Miami-Dade Fire Rescue. "I don't know how he would survive that at night here with the mosquitoes."

"Do you consider yourself an outdoorsman?" Local 10's Todd Tongen asked.

"Yes," Marks said.

"Do you think you could be out there for six days?" Tongen asked.

"No," Marks said.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/...8491360305000/

http://www.local10.com/news/Man-Miss...z/-/index.html

"That's a tough environment between insects, snakes and alligators," Kronheim said. "It's quite a survival story."

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/06/17/St...fter_nig.shtml

Finding your way is difficult by boat and almost impossible on foot, Birenbaum said. "It's not an easy place to survive."

http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=85821

“It appeared he was a little overheated and a little dizzy, so we sat him down, gave him some water and put his feet up and let him rest,” said scoutmaster Howard Crompton, who was leading the 17-year-old and two younger boys on the hike Saturday through Big Cypress National Preserve in the Everglades.

“Then he stopped breathing.”

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/...boy-scouts-bi/

and I could post stories of flipped airboats and broken down airboats and buggies all day and still not scratch the surface.

[Wildthang]

Well that Sparkleberry swamp must be some kind of place. If I ever go there I am taking a GPS with lots of extra batteries

[Batch]

It should be mentioned that in the north the sun will be in a southerly direction at noon and if its starting to get dark at 5 oclock you are well into November. Just saying.

There is a bit of common sense that seems to have been lost. If you are ever to get lost go back the same way you got there. Don't press on into the unknown or try to take shortcuts back. The options available today are endless, cell phones, strobe lights, helium balloons marking your position, etc. It truely is amazing what Search and Rescue is capable of. That said....self rescue is still acknowedged as the most immediate help you'll get. John should learn for himself. Sometimes people need experiences like this to teach them they are not as smart as they think they are. Getting lost in the woods is not an automatic death sentence. He'll know better the next time.

How well do cellphones work in everybody's woods. Spotty at best where I go. Usually you do not have cell phone coverage. Strobe lights are a good option for night if you can get within line of site of the rescuers. I have never heard of using helium balloons. Do you carry some kind of small helium cylinder?

As for the sun setting, I don't have much experience with mountains or up north. But, folks from Michigan have told me that we don't really have a twilight down here. How does a sun setting behind a mountain affect the available light. Wouldn't your proximity to the mountain be a deciding factor?

I think it is a great point that is made on the importance of the camp setting up means of signaling to the lost fisherman who is looking for them.

[Seniorman]

BATCH - "... How well do cellphones work in everybody's woods. Spotty at best where I go. Usually you do not have cell phone coverage."

Out here in the Rocky Mountains, there are many, many places out in the boonies where there is no cell phone coverage. It is not at all unusual for people to go playing around up in the thick forests and mountains, get lost, and find their cell phones don't work.

Being prepared never hurts.

S.M.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

How well do cellphones work in everybody's woods. Spotty at best where I go. Usually you do not have cell phone coverage. Strobe lights are a good option for night if you can get within line of site of the rescuers. I have never heard of using helium balloons. Do you carry some kind of small helium cylinder?

As for the sun setting, I don't have much experience with mountains or up north. But, folks from Michigan have told me that we don't really have a twilight down here. How does a sun setting behind a mountain affect the available light. Wouldn't your proximity to the mountain be a deciding factor?

I think it is a great point that is made on the importance of the camp setting up means of signaling to the lost fisherman who is looking for them.

The sun droping behind a mountain does not darken the entire sky only puts you in the shadow of the mountain. It's when it drops below the horizon it gets dark. Theres always "what ifs". It would probably be a good mental excersise for you to figure out some "what ifs" on your own.

[Batch]

The sun droping behind a mountain does not darken the entire sky only puts you in the shadow of the mountain. It's when it drops below the horizon it gets dark. Theres always "what ifs". It would probably be a good mental excersise for you to figure out some "what ifs" on your own.

I don't get that response. I did do the mental exercise and came to a conclusion that it shouldn't be ant different than me standing on the shady edge of a hardwood hammock. But, then when I was told that it got dark much later up north than it does down here I had to ask why about that.

So, rather than just be ignorant about something that I know nothing about I guess I would rather ask. Or trying to figure it out in my head.

So while on that subject why are you so bitter?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I don't get that response. I did do the mental exercise and came to a conclusion that it shouldn't be ant different than me standing on the shady edge of a hardwood hammock. But, then when I was told that it got dark much later up north than it does down here I had to ask why about that.

So, rather than just be ignorant about something that I know nothing about I guess I would rather ask. Or trying to figure it out in my head.

So while on that subject why are you so bitter?

The earth shifts on its axis. We get same amount amount of light and dark just get more in summer and less in winter and the time of sunset changes with time of year. When the sun sets can be used to determine time of year. Not bitter...or mean to be. I find observation and reasoning very useful in every situation and think should be used more. BTW my grandmother was Seminole and have many relatives in Florida I've stayed with on visits. My father was raised in your swamps during the depression and after the war came to Alaska. He had no knowledge or skills needed for Alaska but figured things out and I learned this trait from a "Swamp Rat". I'm not a complete stranger to that culture. I hope that point is better understood and taken the way I mean it. To clarify further the sun will reflect light off clouds or other parts of the earth to light an area even if in the shade will have light reflected on it just not as much.

[Nothus]

As much of a mistake John made, his friends made a greater one. John got lost on day 4, the pilot is expected back on day 5. John, as long as he doesn't panic should be OK for several days. The friends should have sat tight. They could try making noise, but with heavy pine cover sound wouldn't travel far. For the plane to land the area had to be open, and there is no indication that the camp was set up at any distance from the landing site. Perhaps a large controlled fire. Without the light pollution we experience in inhabited areas, the sky glow should be seen over a large area. John would not have had enough time under the conditions to walk any distance not to see it. The group should have waited for the pilot. He would know the procedures used in the Province for lost persons, and been able, by radio, to activate them if John hadn't found his way back because of the fire.

[kyratshooter]

It's been two weeks,

Are they all dead yet?

[Young_prepper]

The pilot's still alive... I think...