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Thread: Bowdrill fire

  1. #1
    Senior Member payne's Avatar
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    Default Bowdrill fire

    EDIT: See this post instead of the stupid bullcrap I've written in this 'original post'.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I had some free time after the 'bicycle mechanics course' I took today at my college, so I decided to make my very first attempt at starting a fire with a bowdrill.
    Not having any camera, I can't give pictures of what I was doing, so sorry if this makes your help utterly difficult. =/

    Essentially, I located a bow-like branch on the ground. It was approximatively a bit shorter than my arm (I am not a tall person, by the way). Its thickness was varying between the size of 2 to 3 of my fingers (from on end to the other).
    The cord I used was very crappy and I suspect it to be a bit waxed: when I'd try to make my branch spin, most of the time the rope was only sliding on the branch, which implies no spin at all. I'm wondering: could the tension of the cord also affect this? Once the branch was enrolled in the cord, there would be a tiny slack (not much, though).
    For the spinning-branch, the only straight branch I could find was part of 'semi-dead' tree. Could this have participated to my failure? Is this branch supposed to be dead wood? It was the same size as my forearm, and it was as thick as my thumb.
    The bottom plate of wood I've used was treated: I really couldn't find anything suitable in the wood so I had to make with it. I guess it didn't help neither?

    I did not have much time since I was trying to start the fire right in front of every body, on the terrain of my college... and it's illegal. As soon as I realized I couldn't get the cord to have a proper friction with the wood, I just abandoned.
    I know this isn't much of an experience, but I guess you guys could still get me some great advices based on it. Sorry for the lack of information. =/
    Last edited by payne; 05-24-2011 at 12:32 AM.


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    Sounds like pretty much everything you did was wrong other than the mechanics. Treated wood isn't dry cause of the chemicals in it. Takes forever for that stuff to dry out. The spindle has to be dry as well, otherwise you won't get embers. If the spindle didn't spin cause of the bow, then you won't get embers either. The bow string should be rather tight, no slack.

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    naturalist primitive your_comforting_company's Avatar
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    I'm sure that if you use the search feature at the top, you will find plenty of information on the forum that would answer all your questions with only a little research.
    Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. Helen Keller

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    Senior Member payne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_comforting_company View Post
    I'm sure that if you use the search feature at the top, you will find plenty of information on the forum that would answer all your questions with only a little research.
    The thing was I wanted feedbacks on my own specific case.
    JPG's answer was pretty much what I was waiting for.
    Thanks. =D
    I'll probably get my hand on a second, more serious, try within a week. I'll post the report in here.

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    naturalist primitive your_comforting_company's Avatar
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    Your case was very specifically, had every possible element wrong.
    http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...Bow-(PIC-HEAVY)

    Do a little homework, unless you really just like burning calories. Use dead wood. use a nice big curved bow. Use cordage that affords some grip, i.e. NOT waxed and adjust the tension on it as you take it up with your fingers. Your "bottom piece" should be dead and preferrably NOT treated also.
    If you had done your homework you would have at least known that nothing about that kit was right. Since you have a week between tries, why not read the article above?
    Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. Helen Keller

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    Senior Member payne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_comforting_company View Post
    Your case was very specifically, had every possible element wrong.
    http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...Bow-(PIC-HEAVY)

    Do a little homework, unless you really just like burning calories. Use dead wood. use a nice big curved bow. Use cordage that affords some grip, i.e. NOT waxed and adjust the tension on it as you take it up with your fingers. Your "bottom piece" should be dead and preferrably NOT treated also.
    If you had done your homework you would have at least known that nothing about that kit was right. Since you have a week between tries, why not read the article above?
    100% my fault. I apologize.
    The worst is that I had already read that one.
    My memory likes to trick me from times to times (though in this case, it was obviously a lack of thought as well... lol@using treated and waxed stuff!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by payne View Post
    it was obviously a lack of thought as well...
    Lack of thought can get you killed on your little expedition

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    I think this was a valuable lesson for you, and I applaud your efforts. You have probably learned a great deal about wood selection, technique, and effort. It may still take you several attempts to achieve success, but if you keep at it you will be successful.

    This is why on your other threads so many of us are urging you to practice, get some time out doing instead of time in reading. Both are important, but one without the other, as you have experienced may not lead to success. I know you said you are busy, but I would encourage you to make the time. If you do, your journey will be a memorable one. It may even cause you to continue chasing your dream.
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    Glad to hear your trying your skills before your trip . Keep trying you will get it. Just perfect it now before you need it on your trip.
    I Wonder Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, "I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here, and drink what ever comes out?"

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    Not a great first post for me I guess but you really expect to last 20 days on your adventure? Common sense says to not use a treated wood. With out that you can not expect to survive. The second issue is doing it on campus knowing it is illegal? Please do a lot more planning and practicing because you attempt a trip like you had planned. Everyone starts somewhere but extended trips like that are nothing to take lightly, especially with more than one problem. Be prepared not only to take care of your self, but also be prepared to have to take care of your partner if anything were to ever happen to him.

    There is a post somewhere around here listing the best wood specials for your bow and drill. These species may not be available near you but it will give you an idea of what woods will work well. Good luck in anything and everything you do. Stay safe man.

    Alex

    Edit* I thought I read you were going on a 20 day trip but just saw a post about a 6 month trip? Also, another post that you cannot afford a camera? How will you buy food and supplies? A decent digital camera can be had for around $100. That same $100 wont last you anywhere near 6 months as far as food goes. Whats the plan?
    Last edited by woodpro1102; 04-25-2011 at 12:10 AM.

  11. #11
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    Hey there woodpro1102 - if your second post were in the Introduction section --- now that would be great.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member payne's Avatar
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    Hello everyone!

    I had stopped posting on the forum, yet I kept lurking around. Anyways, I just came back from a 3-days hike with some friends, and on the first night, I had some spare time in front of the fire, so I decided to try to arrange a little kit for a bow-drill fire.
    First thing I realized, is that I need a much better knife: it took hours, and my thumb was in pain, to carve properly the kit. By the time I thought I was done, I proceeded to make my first attempt at spinning the spindle with the bow, but then realized I was missing quite an important part: the kind of socket that goes at the top of the spindle so you can apply pressure without burning yourself. Unfortunately, it was too dark to attempt to find something suitable, so I just decided to find a piece the next night.
    Next night, I finally find something that seems to suit properly my spindle. However, as soon as I'm done preparing the tindle ball, it started raining, so once again: mission aborted.
    Next day, it was time to return home. I decided I hadn't spent that many hours on this little kit to never actually even get to try it out once, so I just took it home with me. Of course, I found out I had forgotten my bow-drill behind me once I arrived home: so here I was, back again to carve some wood (the new bow kind of sucked, but anyways).

    Finally, I was done. As I started to spin the spindle, in a matter of a single minute, the rope frayed itself, so I had to use something else: a synthetic-ish green and thin rope.
    Once I've made this change, everything was working... except one detail: as soon as I'd get to smell some smoke, the spindle would just pop out... thus dooming me to restart. I restarted, again and again, it would always pop out as I started to smell smoke (and yet I never got to actually see some).

    I thought it could be some problem with my kit, so I decided to take some pictures. That's where you guys come in: do you see anything wrong?

    http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1104/1004791q.jpg
    The whole "kit".

    http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9352/1004792e.jpg
    I've just realized I had missed that picture pretty bad. Anyways, this is supposed to be what I drill on, and the other part of wood under it is where the ember should fall.

    http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8383/1004793t.jpg
    Here, we see the spindle's bottom edge, and the chunk of wood under it is what I put pressure on (what goes on the top edge of the spindle).

    http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6673/1004794g.jpg
    My baby skin! I mostly wanted to represent the size of my spindle (my forearm's size), and I've also pictured the size of the tindle ball (my hand's size, pretty much). The tindle ball is made of the rope that I was previously using before it frayed: I've simply frayed it even more and it gave me this.

    http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1687/1004795j.jpg
    A representation of the size of the hole in my "socket". Could this be a source of error seeing as it has about 2mm of free space.

    http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/844/1004796.jpg
    This is how I was positioning my spindle with my bowdrill.


    Something we do not see is how my bowdrill actually broke on one end. This ended up actually being useful to quickly adjust the tension in the rope.
    Talking of tension... how tight should the rope be while I'm drilling? And how much pressure am I supposed to put on the "socket"?

    EDIT:
    Forgot to ask: a friend of mine was saying cedar is the best wood component for all of the parts of that kind of kit. Is that true?
    Last edited by payne; 05-23-2011 at 11:03 PM.

  13. #13

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    Are you kidding me? Bicycle mechanics is a college coarse? To think I could have been a college professor when I was 8 years old. I must be a genius and never knew it!

  14. #14

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    I like cedar, eastern red cedar specifically, for all parts of the bow set except the bearing block. Some feel it's one of the more difficult woods to use though, especially if you use the red heartwood.

    It is more difficult than box elder or autumn olive, but for me works better than cottonwood or any of the "popples", which are generally just too soft and or punky around here.

    If you can get smoke, stop. Take a break and have another go. I don't know why your spindle would slip as soon as you get smoke, but maybe a break would allow you to have a bit more control when you get back to it. Once it's smoking it only takes a few seconds and a slight increase in pressure and speed to get the ember.

    It could be that your bearing block starts to heat up and bind at the same time the smoke comes and the binding causes it to flip out of the string. Mine usually only flips out when I'm first getting set up or when I'm trying to use too short of a spindle, or perhaps my string is just a bit tight.

  15. #15
    naturalist primitive your_comforting_company's Avatar
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    I personally like to use yucca spindles on Black willow.
    All your components look good to me, with the exception of lubricating the socket. I don't know what wood you are using, but It all looks good and dead and dry to me from the pics.
    The only suggestion I might make is PRACTICE!! This is a very mechanical process. Concentrate on posture and purpose, and above ALL ELSE, BREATHE!
    Several factors can cause the spindle to pop out, including the lack of lube, fatigue causing a fluctuation in posture of the socket, and/or the cord being too tight. I like to take up the slack in the string with my fingers as I take up the bow, so that I can tighten or loosen the tension depending on the performance of the spindle. If it won't spin, tighten your string OR lighten the pressure on the socket, and gradually increase both as you start to get smoke.

    One other suggestion: Don't stop spinning just because you see smoke. The smoke will change color ever so slightly and it is that change in the smoke color that indicates a live ember. First smoke will be grayish, and smoke from an ember is a yellowish color. The change is very slight and might not be very noticable at first. Just because you have smoke does not mean you have fire YET.. keep spinning for another few seconds (maybe 30) and you should be able to get an ember.

    Do not expect to get it on your first try, or even the first 10 tries. I don't even want to tell you how many times I tried before I finally got all the elements "just right" to get an ember, but it was a LOT of tries.

    It looks like you are well on your way. Let us know how it goes. If you have proper wood, you should be working on the mechanics and posture (practice!!) and soon you'll be spinning fire every chance you get!
    One thing I've noticed... When I'm trying to "show off" I can almost never get an ember, but when I do it just messing around, like to light the grill, I can make fire in 2 minutes or less. Every once in a while the universe smiles on me and I make fire

    Good Luck and keep practicing! Let us know how you fare!

  16. #16
    Super Moderator crashdive123's Avatar
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    I suspect that your spindle is popping free every time you smell smoke because you get excited, change your positioning to see, and either release your downward pressure or have moved your bow out of the way.
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  17. #17

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    All 5 things must work in harmony to get a bow drill fire.
    Bearing block,spindle,fire board,bow and............you.
    It took me almost a month of pain and suffering to get the technique and correct materials to work.
    The string or cortege is very important.Paracord or even better,cotton clothes line works best.
    If spindle slippage is an issue,try cutting the spindle in a hex shape where the cortege runs.
    You'll build strength and technique the more you practice.
    I do best with white cedar spindle and fireboard and an oak bearing block.
    Good luck......

  18. #18

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    I like the dead exposed roots of cottonwood trees for the spindle and base but a lot of other woods work well too. The string fraying and breaking could be from a couple of factors such as the wrong type or thickness of string or poor technique. If when you work the bow back and forth the string crosses over itself near the spindle it will quickly fray and break. Some good tips about the spindle popping free have also been given but I'd like to add one more: I've had times when the bearing block built up friction as I spun the spindle and the increased friction made me work harder to keep tension on the string which made the spindle pop out of the socket. Even lubricating the socket didn't help in this instance. I just had to find a different, harder material for the socket. A section of the rear portion of the backbone from an elk works great. Drill a hole through it and wear it like a necklace. It will invite some stares and questions but is absolutely "authentic" from the purist's perspective.

    If you're having trouble with the string slipping on the spindle do the hex shape thing first or rough the area up where the string rides. Another thing I've done is use an "Egyption Bow Drill." It's a different method of wrapping the string around the spindle. I used it a couple of times when I cut my hand and couldn't get a good grip on the bow. I've also used it with students if they were having problems with string slippage. There's a good explanation here http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/surv...ian/index.html or just do a search on the Egyptian Bow Drill. The only real difference is how the string is wrapped around the spindle. You can also drill a hole in through the spindle and run the string through it before attaching it to your bow. It takes some creative wrapping around the spindle though!

    The size, length, etc. of the bow is personal preference. I've seen little tiny bow drills and four man bow drills (they were so large it took four people to do it) and everything in between and they all worked. Sometimes a shorter bow works best. It seldom works to just chuck a spindle in an electric drill and go at it. It's the stop/start/reverse direction sequence that makes it work. Otherwise you'd never be able to make a fire with a hand drill.

    If your materials are good, proper technique is 90 percent of the battle.

    Have fun!
    Last edited by mosquitomountainman; 05-24-2011 at 09:56 AM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member payne's Avatar
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    I'll try again tonight.

    But before, can someone explain me what the 'hex shape' is?
    About my socket, it's a dead and dry knot of wood. What should I lubricate it with? (Something found in the nature please.)
    Else, I'd like to know how much time it takes you to assemble a full kit like this one. It took me several hours, and I'm wondering if it's normal or not. I guess there's a lot of luck about finding some pieces (like this damn socket).
    One last precision: I don't know the wood-type of my components. It's probably made out of 4 different wood. XD

    EDIT: And do you have any good tips for if I want to make my own rope directly out of the wood? I probably must use roots, but I'm pretty sure there's more to know about it.
    Last edited by payne; 05-24-2011 at 10:40 AM.

  20. #20

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    Lube:

    Soapwort leaves
    Pine resin
    Possibly hickory leaves, but I'm not so sure about this one

    A great pre-lubed bearing block is a nice solid piece of fatwood, that's what I now use

    I saw a guy on YT use hickory entire for the bowdrill, string, bow and all, and he didn't even use a knife. The string was made from the bark. I can't find the vid, but it is a good one and the guy knows his stuff. I don't recall what he used for the bearing block, probably hickory, but he did use hickory leaves for lube, and, IIRC, he also put a bit of pine resin on the string for grip, but I could be wrong on that. He did do something a bit unusual though, as the natural cordage can't take a lot of stress, and otherwise the string would either break or slip.

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