Long Range Shooting, Part 1

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Long range shooting

This is something I learned, but after learning it and separating fact from fiction I question both the ethics and usefulness of it. Ethically shooting someone that can't shoot you is murder and unnecessary. Tactically giving up your position would not make sense except to cover others or stop an advancing force that could not be escaped. You must also know that 90% of the people that make claim to being to hit at long distances are full of it! As you learn more this will become increasingly apparent when you hear the common myths they perpetuate. You should get your knowledge of this from technical books, not magazines, advertisements or the internet. That having been said, lets get to it.
Velocity is often misunderstood to improve accuracy. What it does is flatten the trajectory making it easier for those without the ability to factor trajectory to shoot at a greater distance. Even cartridges such as the 30-378 will drop over three feet at 500 yards and continue to increase the rate it drops beyond that. Using what is called maximum zero a round like this can be sighted in at say 400 yards and stay within 12" above or below the line of sight out to 500 yards. Beyond that the drop increases to the point trajectory must be figured in. Some reloading manuals will provide maximum zero distances. Accuracy is decreased some by two factors. The first being that spin rates need to be increased to stabilize bullets and as with anything that spins imperfections affecting balance will cause it to wobble throwing it off coarse. While velocity decreases with distance the spin rate does not. This is what causes bullets to ricochet and leads to other myths. I've heard stories of 300 Magnums bouncing off a bears skull and leading people to think they need more gun. The simple truth is that a slower bullet with more mass such as a 44 magnum will blow a hole straight through their skull. The other factor is that gas expansion tremendously exceeds the bore capacity and the excess pressure exiting the muzzle with bullet can affect the bullets path if there are any imperfections in the bullet or crown. Increases in velocity also increase recoil that may cause some shooters to flinch affecting accuracy. The 30-378 is an extreme example of velocity, but to be practical I recommend a flat shooter that is much easier to handle and can be used at far greater distances as you learn more. I have a 270 now, but have had many in that range that perform similar. Sighted in at 200yards the 270 will shoot about 3" high at 100 yards and about 6" low at 300 yards. I suggest rather than actually sight in at maximum zero distances that your refer to ballistics tables and determine how high the bullets trajectory will be at 25 or 50 yards and sight in to that height at that distance. The bullet will be less affected by wind and other variables and have a very tight group for accurate measure. Then check it at all maximum zero distances. This will get you fairly accurate to a very respectful 300 yards quickly.

Long range accuracy is about a consistent flight path, knowing the trajectory, the distance to the target and factors that affect the flight path. Knowledge is more important than skill. The skill involved is removing yourself from the equation which is easily accomplished and will be discussed later, for now lets talk ammunition.
Rifles are all chambered as close humanly or economically feasible. Ammunition is manufactured to an average specification to account for the variance. A person could spend thousands of dollars to buy a quality rifle manufactured to exacting chamber specifications and load it with expensive target ammunition that achieves its consistency by weighing and choosing only the components that meet an exact specification. Money will only take you so far without knowledge.
Re-loaders can match ammo much closer to a particular chamber and increase accuracy dramatically. It must be remembered that this ammo fits a particular rifle and may not function in other rifles. When a cartridge is fired the brass expands to the shape of the chamber to seal it. It almost instantly cools and shrinks allowing it to be extracted. Fired brass is an exact match to the chamber it was fired from. Normally the entire case is resized in a die but that would destroy the perfect fit. Target loads should be neck sized only, leaving the rest of the case dimensions untouched. this improves the alignment of the bullet to the bore which brings us to another aspect of custom fit. Throats or free bore as some call it is the part of the chamber that controls the distance the bullet travels before it comes in contact with the lands. This can vary from the normal 1/32th of an inch up to 1/2 of an inch depending on the views of the manufacturer. As a re-loader you can adjust the bullet seat depth to match your gun to achieve the greatest accuracy. Velocity affects trajectory and if the bullet is seated too deep in the case velocity will be reduced ,if the bullet is seated to far into the lands it will not allow smooth initial expansion and pressure will increase velocity and can be VERY DANGEROUS. Some prefer to set the bullet slightly into the lands to start the bullet down the bore and reduce powder charge without reduction in velocity due to the increased pressure. I prefer to set my bullets just off the lands because I have found that powder measure becomes more critical as pressure rises (another thing I have against high velocity loads for accuracy). To determine bullet seat depth place a bullet in an empty unprimed case leaving it out to far and chamber the round. This will leave marks on the bullet. Remove the marks with steel wool, press the bullet deeper and repeat until you have achieved the seat depth you want and the place bullet into seat die and set. Another advantage to setting close or into the lands is that the initial jump in pressure starts case expansion eliminating the need for a crimp which will further increase accuracy. Of coarse these rounds will be more fragile and less waterproof. They should not be used in the field or in magazines. Consistency in components will increase consistency on the range. I use a lee case trimmer to cut all cases to the exact same length. They are small cheap and preset which makes them idiot proof (I need that). After being trimmed weigh them, weigh your bullets, weigh powder setting your own standards for quality. Buy powder in large quantities as it can vary from batch to batch. Always use the same brand of primers as these can vary as well. I have found that the most accurate powder loads are slightly mild to medium measurements. Consistency should be checked at the range on a cronograph. I have been able to achieve a less than 5 feet per second difference, but then I'm a fanatic about it. If you don't want to spend a lot of money or learn reloading just buy every brand of ammunition you can find and see which one works best in your gun and stick with that brand.
Another thing you will want is to deliver as much power down range as you can. Bullet design plays a major role in that. A little known fact is a bullet is slowed more by drag than it is by resistance. Boat tail bullets increase the ballistic coefficient but at a cost in high velocity rounds. A full base will handle the pressure much better and be more accurate but the drag will slow it and deliver less power down range. Heavy round nose bullets have the advantage of sectional density and forward weight that makes them highly accurate and real thumpers down range. But the boat tails will over take them for power usually somewhere past 600 yards depending on cartridge. Up to that point though it is my choice. I used to use target hollow point boat tails but have switched to the new ballistic tips with amazing success. My hallmark bullets (when you want to send the very best) are Hornady SST and Scirrocos.
Ammunition is a key factor in long range accuracy and without it the best you can hope for is a lucky shot.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Part 2

The instant a bullet leaves the muzzle two forces act on it. Air resistance slows its velocity and gravity pulls it down. Bullet designs have different ballistic coefficients(aerodynamics). Bullets will also drop at different rates depending on velocity. Ballistic tables in reloading manuals accurately list drop figures for all their bullets calculated for standard conditions. Standard temperature is 59 degrees, standard humidity is 78 percent, standard atmospheric pressure is 29.53 Hg. and altitude is figured at sea level. Any variance to these conditions will affect the bullets flight path and the greater the variance or the longer the shot the more important it becomes to factor it in. Reloading manuals will have the formulas to calculate the correction. The angle of your shot (uphill or downhill) also affects trajectory and shots over 15 degrees need to consider this. Reloading manuals have tables that will give you the correction figures for that. There are also tables to give you correction figures for cross wind. Wind speed and angle of the wind must be known. Shooting directly into or with the wind will have little effect so if possible change your position to accomplish this. One thing I do is to watch the trees as indicators and shoot between gusts. Obviously these are a lot of figures and should be done before hand and written down on range cards for reference in the field. You must have consistent ammo and know its velocity as a starting point. As you go through ballistic tables you will see what a huge difference these factors make on long distance shots. This is why sighting in should be done at close range and then checked at longer ranges. Some people believe that if they can shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards they can shoot 10 inch groups at a 1000 yards. Not without doing the math they can't, unless conditions are perfect and they know the trajectory. When using the tables you will see that they are in increments of 100 feet per second and ranges of 100 yards. Unless your range and velocity is dead on you will require interpolation. Not all manuals list all bullets out to 1000 yards. You should know that no matter the muzzle velocity the velocity will determine its drop. So if your tables end at 500 yards just start over at a lower velocity table and add those figures to where the other table left off. In the next blog I will explain mil dots, minutes of angles, hold over, sights and optics.

The range to the target is another critical factor that must be known and there are several methods to determine it. This is one case where modern technology as actually made an advancement. I purchased a 1000 yard laser range finder several years back and loved it. Cost is a factor, I paid 450 dollars for mine, and that was years ago. The instructions it came with stated light conditions could affect it but I never had that problem. You do need a something for the laser to reflect back to you which can difficult in open ground, but as long as you have something to shoot at you will have something that will reflect back to you. I used mine for navigation and to estimate surveying also. They are simple to operate and the only draw back is they are battery operated which could be a problem if civilization collapses and is a problem now in severe cold (batteries freeze). Are they worth it? If you have the money to spare yes but if you have to choose between a laser range finder and a chainsaw with 55 gallons of gas to run it, no.
There is another kind of range finder that uses mirrors set at each end that adjust to triangulate on the target. When using it you will see two images and you turn a knob until the two images become one. The large old WW I antique ones used for artillery might work but I can tell the small modern cheap piece crap I bought sure didn't. Don't waste your money!
Optical range finders are spotting scopes, binoculars or rifle scopes that have markings in them that can measure the image and if you know the true size of the object you can calculate the distance. Some use a minute of angle for the measurement which is pretty close to 1 inch at 100 yards. The formula is simple, divide the known size of the object in inches by the number of minutes of angle. This will tell you range in hundreds of yards. For example if the known size of an object is 10 inches and the image measures 1 minute of angle it is 1000 yards away. Likewise if the image measures 2.5 minutes it would be 400 yards away. If it measures 3 minutes it would be 333 yards away. You get the Idea. Mil dots work the same way only they are based on a measurement of 3.6 inches at 100 yards or 36 inches at 1000 yards. These marks can also be used to measure the bullet drop at the targets distance. Some people prefer mil dots because it is a less cluttered reticle but for me I find it to be spaced to widely at long distances essentially turning it into a hold over shot. I find minutes of angle more precise and I'm old school having learned using target sights set to minutes of angle. It is just a matter of preference. Some scopes Use different forms of measurement. Some Russian scopes have a straight line with a curved line above it. It is based on the average height of a man being 1.7 meters tall and what you do is put the image of the man between the lines so he touches both and read the measurement for the range. the reticle is also marked so you can figure the bullet drop. There are several different styles based on this type of optical range finding. My favorite scope has mixed reviews from people. Those that know ballistics love them those that don't blame the scope. Shepard scopes use a series of circles that get progressively smaller as they go down the reticle. These scopes come with different trajectories built into them and you most have one that matches your rifles trajectory. The circles are based on 18 inches (coincidently the average size of a mans chest) and your simply find the circle that fits and the range and trajectory is figured. It also has a minutes of angle scale off to the side. Another feature I like is that it has a dual reticle. This means the rifle can be zeroed with one shot. Aim and shoot, then aim again and hold one reticle on the target and adjust the other reticle to where the bullet landed, then adjust the reticle that was on the target to align with the other reticle and you a zeroed in. It can also be used on long shots that you missed due to wind or some other temporary condition. Use the same method only this time just fire using the one reticle that you set to where the bullet landed to make the shot. You can then return it to alignment and retain the original zero. You must know the velocity and trajectory of your bullet and have the scope that matches it. Otherwise you will be just one more person bad mouthing Shepard scopes. You can use other measurements of scopes reticles to range find if your know the measurement. Simply look at a ruler at a given distance through the scope to determine it. You can also use your thumb for that matter if you know the measurement. Another method to judge range without anything is to visually split the distance in half, and split that distance in half and continue until you can judge the distance and then multiply it by the number of units you divided to get the full distance.
Scopes with target knobs adjust the reticle to the trajectory if you have already determined the range. The construction if these scopes should be considered. Some scopes have a spring that opposes the adjusting knobs while others are completely mechanically pushed up and down by the knob. The latter is my choice and have had to many problems with the others to use them for constant adjustment. One of my favorite scopes is the old Russian 3.5 PU scope for this reason and it is calibrated out to 1300 meters. Another method of adjusting trajectory is adjustable base, but it is not a common method and I have never used it myself to be able to tell you about it. When I get to shooting techniques I will discuss target sights and open sights.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Part 3

Now we come to the rifle, no more or no less important than anything else we have covered. You have all seen old cartoons that showed barrels bulging when being fired. This is an exaggeration of what actually happens when a rifle is fired. Again consistency is your goal and anything that touches the barrel in an inconsistent manner will interfere with the normal expansion of the barrel affecting accuracy. Most modern accurate rifles bed the action (tighten the fit) and free float the barrel (increase stock clearance so it does not touch). This achieves consistency by the action always being in contact and the barrel never being in contact with the stock. This should be checked often because stocks warp and dirt works its way between the barrel and stock. Wrap a dollar bill once around the barrel and work it back and forth all the way back to the action to check. If need be you may have to remove the stock and sand it to correct the condition or remove the dirt. Free floating the barrel is probably just as good as fully bedding the stock on short sporterized stocks and is much cheaper to manufacture which is why it has become the standard. Remember consistency is the goal and can also be accomplished by fully bedding the stock (keeping the action and barrel in constant contact). Older military rifles that have stocks that wrap the barrel on both sides to the muzzle will see additional gains in accuracy due to the bedding adding stiffness to the barrel. Bedding kits are like using bondo and can be purchased from outfits like Brownells complete with instructions. Barrel expansion is is also part of the reason some actions are better than others for accuracy. Pump, semi automatic, and lever actions have loose parts attached to the barrel through their mounts. Bedding these actions or barrels seldom show improvement for this reason. 2 piece stocks also contribute nothing to barrels stiffness that would otherwise help to off set the consequences of loose parts. Semi automatics with one piece stocks such as M-1 Garands will benefit from bedding where ever it does not interfere with the action. Gas operated actions have a hole in the barrel to vent pressure to operate the action that cause the barrel to flex in unpredictable ways under the pressure and expansion that occurs when fired. An extreme example of this is the Ruger Mini-14. As I stated before barrel stiffness can compensate for this and fitting a thick target barrel on the Ruger makes then very accurate. Quality construction will can help to off set the inherent design problems but for a price. Single shots have advantages and disadvantages and the biggest determining factor is quality. Sights and optics are mounted directly to the barrel providing the most consistent alignment with the bore and the weight saved in the action is usually added to the thickness of the barrel. A disadvantage is that many of them have is two piece stocks which I explained before. The biggest disadvantage is attributed to head space (how far the cartridge is pushed into the chamber. Rimmed cartridges have an advantage here but the biggest determining factor is the quality of construction that can off set this. By now you know most of the advantages of a bolt action for accuracy. The only disadvantage they have is that the optics are mounted to the action, but they do have the least amount of movement of any action between the action and barrel. Movement may be too strong a word, uneven heat expansion would be more accurate phrasing. One of the advantages they have is that the bolt sets the head space more accurately than any other action. Among the bolts forward lugs have the advantage of accuracy over rear lugs and bolts with three lugs are the most accurate with the advantage of being stronger too. Bolts have another advantage in lag time (the time between when the trigger breaks and the time the firing pin strikes the primer) over actions with hammers whether exposed or not as they are in automatics. This speed can even be increased by replacing the firing pin with a titanium firing pin (it's lighter). Thick barrels are not necessarily more accurate than thin ones but they are less susceptible to the problems I have mentioned. Heat will also cause barrels to flex and will "string" the shots as it heats up. Thick barrels take longer to heat up but will do the same thing if they get hot enough. Composite stocks are less prone to warping or cracking, the disadvantage is that they are hard to modify for a custom fit. Laminated wood stocks are less prone to warping or cracking than stocks made from one piece of wood and are just as easy to modify for fit. As a general rule the longer the barrel the better but with advances in powders and burn rates this is not as critical as it once was, I covered that in the ammo blog. Cyrogenics (freezing) is another way of tempering steel and will improve accuracy by addressing barrel expansion directly. This is expensive for the accuracy gained, it depends how much money you want to put into this.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Part 4

I have taken several basic marksmanship and safety courses that were all pretty much the same and covered the basics that everyone should know. I recommend everyone take one of these courses that are often available through Fish & Game, Target Shooting clubs, Boy Scouts, Shooting ranges etc. Of the basic shooting positions only the prone and sitting positions should be considered for long range shooting and both positions need to be modified. In the prone position lay at a 45 degree angle to the target, your strong side leg should be straight or close to straight, your cheek firmly pressed against stock, your strong arm resting the elbow on ground and pulling the rifle firmly into your shoulder, all as usual. The difference is that the weak arm is not used to support the rifle. I use a small pack that I always carry to support the rifle. I don’t like attached by pods to supply the rest, but if you do use them be sure that the legs fold forward. Unless the legs fold forward they can throw your shot off by during recoil. Be sure to support rifle on the stock and not the barrel for the reasons I previously explained. Lay the forearm of your weak arm flat on the ground and bent back towards you under the rifle. This will lower you to the ground increasing stability and you can also use this arm in this position to push a rest under the rear of stock for more stability.
Due to terrain and vegetation you may wish to use the sitting position to get higher. This is not has good as the prone position but still very stable. The sitting position has a few variations to accommodate different body shapes. Begin by sitting at a slight angle to the target, Legs can be apart or crossed with the left leg over right for right handed shooters or just the opposite for left handed shooters, your cheek pressed against the stock and rifle pulled firmly into shoulder. Now the modification, instead of placing elbows just inside knees on the fleshy part (never bone to bone) and using weak arm palm for support, fold weak arm back and rest both forearms on knees and support rifle with elbow of weak arm. Leaning against a tree or wall can further stabilize this position. I sometimes use shooting sticks to help stabilize this position too, but I never reach, sacrificing position to rely on them or other supports.
Stillness is the goal and even breathing can affect the shot. To control this take several deep breathes to get a surplus of oxygen in your system, then exhale most air holding back just a little and hold your breathe to make shot.
Moving targets present another challenge. Leading is the most common method but I prefer trapping, especially for long shots. Trapping is choosing a point in the path your target and timing your shot to arrive at that point the same time your target arrives. This provides more stability in the shot and is easier for me to judge. With peep sights I will lead the target not by aiming in front of target but instead changing the sight picture to achieve the lead, this allows me to put the front sight on the target increasing my accuracy. A side note here, Target sights are marked off in minute of angle increments but can be affected by the distance to the front sight. Front sights can be moved or you can calculate the exact measurement to get the correct drop adjustment. Apertures come in various sizes to increase accuracy by centering the front sight better. I have always preferred target sights to scopes for accuracy but they require excellent eyesight. The lack of magnification makes me realize the just how tough the shot is increasing my concentration. Magnifying an object to 20 times its size only gives the illusion that it is easy to hit. My aging eyes has forced me to use a scope these days, but if you eyesight is better than 15-20 you should seriously consider target sights. To hit targets while you are in motion require different tactics. When shooting from an airplane circle the aircraft around the target, this will keep the target in one position. When shooting from a boat bouncing up and down move the rifle from below the target and time the shot to when the target crosses your sights. This also works when you find yourself shivering from cold.
The more you take into account the things I have covered the more accurate you will be but again I wish to emphasize that long range shooting serves little practical purpose. Using maximum zero and some hold over with a accurate flat shooting rifle can easily serve you out to 400 yards which is more than adequate for the survivalists needs. Even Snipers will try to get this close to be certain of making the shot. I shoot long range for fun and just to see how far can hit a target. I will often throw all the science out and use tracers to walk the shots on target. Tracers will burn out on really long shots so I will often shoot where I can see the bullet land (like over water). I will shoot every kind of firearm at long distance just to know its limitations and to separate fact from fiction. I once shot a snub nosed 38 and found that I was having a hell of a time lobbing the shots across a lake at a target 600 yards away. Later that week I was in a gun shop where the owner was telling one of his customers a 38 was capable of traveling 5 miles a fact I knew to be bull****. You will hear a lot of bull**** in the gun world and you should not believe any of it until you have experienced it yourself.

[2dumb2kwit]

Most people have no idea what it takes, to shoot at real distance. The fact that a 5 mph breeze, at 90 degrees to the bullet path, will move a .308 round about 4 feet,(Roughly.)
by the time it gets out to 1,000 yards, is just a hint of some of the things that get involved.
Distance shooting, is definatly a thinking mans game.

As a side note....the newer mini-14's are much better than the older ones. They are not a precision weapon...but they are better.

[klickitat]

I once shot a snub nosed 38 and found that I was having a hell of a time lobbing the shots across a lake at a target 600 yards away. Later that week I was in a gun shop where the owner was telling one of his customers a 38 was capable of traveling 5 miles a fact I knew to be bull****. You will hear a lot of bull**** in the gun world and you should not believe any of it until you have experienced it yourself.

I do not see it near as much as I use to or maybe I just do not hang out in places where you hear that kind of talk anymore. About 12 years ago I used to put on a series of competition egg matches for a patriot group to earn money for their radio show. When I would hear someone talking about the shot made on a dear running a way on the quarter and placing the shot behind the ribs with an off hand shot at 300 yard shot, theat person instantly got an invitation to the next match.

Here is how it worked. You had a rimfire 17 or 22 any sight and any action. No spotter. You were giving 10 shots and 10 eggs and 60 seconds to clear all 10 from 50'. All shots had to be done standing and the only supports you were allowed to use was a sling. At the end of round 1, all tied shooters would move back to 75', then 85', 90',95,100 and so on. Can you guess the furthest it ever went back to? 75'

With just one exception, everyone who showed up to these events had a semi-automatic rifle from a Marlin 60 with a cheap laser to a Voquartsen topped with a higher end Leopold and all manner of semi autos in between, but mostly 10/22's. All wore scopes too minus the exception. The one exception to the rule was a guy who showed up with a Winchester model 75 wearing an adjustable Morgan but pad and Williams peep sights. For those who do not know what a Winchester Model 75 is. It was the little step sister to the Winchester 52, an outstanding bolt action, clip fed, target rifle. The 75 was a step down from the 52 and considered by most target shooters in the know to be inferior.

The competitions where set up to be fun and to challenge the very basics of breathing, heart rate timing and general marksmanship. At 50' an egg represents a 450 meter military target, but with no elevation or wind corrections. Just basic shooting, not even getting into the more complicated areas.

In the 6 egg matches that were put on the competition never went past 75' and guess who the winner was every time. You got it, the guy who showed up with the bolt action, peeped sighted antique. Here is the amazing part. He only had one 5 round clip for the gun, so he loaded one in the chamber 5 in the clip and help 4 rounds in his mouth and hand feed the last four.

The first three matches no one would talk to him, I think out of embarrassment. At the end of the forth match a couple of the guys finally got the nerve up to talk with the guy and started asking questions about where he learned to shoot and about his gun. The thing that caught most people off guard was the fact that he claimed to have to practice 1/2 hour every day or he was unable to shoot near as well. A day skipped of practice took 3 days to get back to his best. He also told them that he was incapable of making consistent rifle shots out past 400 yards with out perfect conditions. At the end of match 5 he put on a demonstration out at 110' and was able to hit 7 out of 10 eggs in 60 seconds before running out of time.

There was a lot of lessons to learn from that guy and those were just basics of shooting. BTW, the sling he used was just an old military leather sling.

[kyratshooter]

Well I can tell you one thing!

I can kill a deer at a measured 1375 meters with my 10/22 straight out of the box with iron sights, using Walmart milk box ammo!

Done it many times. My grandad taught me how and he fought the Indians!


After running a gun shop for 20 years I can attest to the strange reaction obtained when one mixes testostrone and a firearm. Truth becomes unattainable and miricles are claimed. This is multiplied by the inability, at most shops, to take someone outside, hand them a rifle and say "prove it!"

The gun writers feed into this, they always have. According to their articles every gun comming out of a box and every round of ammo produced is capable of MOA. I agree that at today's prices they should, but they don't. I take most accuracy or ability claims with the same seriousness I do what I posted above, BS of high order.

It makes honest work difficult. Few people want to hear that their MN will only do 8" groups with open sights, off sandbags. They also do not want to hear that they will get no better then 3" groups after they install the scope, do the trigger and glass bed the action.

They espically do not want to hear that their $1000 Remington 700 is not going to give them but 2" groups. They simply do not understand how good 2" groups are!

[hunter63]

As most of my shooting is at game, or practicing for game.

I adhere to the min of paper plate rule, if I can hit a paper plate twice, off hand 100 yds, 2 shots, different positions, ie; sitting standing kneeling, prone etc.
Most all guns shoot better than I do.

I make no other claims, nor do I want want to chase game, so most shots are very deliberate, or not taken.

I do like bolt guns, flat shooters (for the reason AS gave).

Lots of good info there AS, but please hit "enter" once in a while please, so us old guys can follow and not lose our place.

[klickitat]

I am an '06 guy and hate mags. I hate them because I can not shoot more than 12 or 15 rounds without flinching so I just do not own one anymore. I got into this discussion with a friend who is an elk guide in Colorado. He loves the mags because as he explained the #1 reason for misses was range estimation. He convinced me that flatter shooting bullets meant more accuracy due to being able to misjudge yardage and still hit the target. I still hate mags and won't shoot them and instead bought a range finder. I still yet to use the thing when hunting.

[Rick]

Let's not forget that we ALL do it. Very few do it on purpose but we are all guilty of posting information that we believe to be accurate and correct but isn't. That's one of the reasons I request sources. It helps everyone to know where the information comes from or backs up what we believe to be fact. Just because "I" posted doesn't mean that it's any more reliable than something "you" post. As for information on the internet, it's an excellent source of information. I've learned a lot right here on the forum....on the internet.

As to the data you posted, I couldn't tell you one way or the other if it's factual. I don't shoot long distances and don't know anything about it. I'm lucky to get done what I get done up close. More times than not squirrels laugh me out of the woods. It got so bad in one woods they took to wearing bulls eyes.

[mosquitomountainman]

I bought a chronograph two years ago and it's been a great investment for reloading in particular. You can easily pick one up for less than $100.00 now. I've found some ammo sold at gun shows with over 200 fps variation shot-to-shot. The guy who bought it spent several thousand dollars on a rifle and scope set-up but bought the cheapest ammo he could find. Not real wise! The chrono. also stops a lot of BS about how fast a person's super, duper compound bow will shoot. (Many are not happy to learn that they paid upwards of a grand for a bow that shoots 240 fps.)

I have a neighbor who shoots thousand yard "Quigley" matches with a 45/70 and open sights. I did some shooting with his rifle out to 400 yards and it is a challenge. Eveything has to be perfect to hit at those ranges. The most difficult thing I had to contend with was canting the rifle. His has a level on the front sight and concentrating on the level and the sight picture is ... difficult (for me anyway).

[klkak]

AS, what is the source of your information.

[2dumb2kwit]

AS, what is the source of your information.

Snicker, snicker....OK, that was funny! LOL

[Alaskan Survivalist]

AS, what is the source of your information.

I am. I've been shooting half a century and read a few books along the way and tried things I heard and listened to some people that were amazing shots. As for myself in the last couple of years my eyes are begining to fail me. I think it is from driving truck trying to focus my eyes in the darkness only to be hit with the bright lights of on coming traffic. I have had to make some adjustments. Scopes don't seem to help much because things are getting dark and scopes only make them darker. Now I concentrate on aquiring my target fast and more instinctive shooting at closer range. My eyes are causing me trouble on the job too and not sure how much longer I can continue to work. I was really looking forward to retirement and being put out to pasture a few years ago before I realized the world is falling apart. I can see now the only rest I'll ever get is when they plant me in the ground.

[Sourdough]

AS, nice essay. I have never written that many words in one years. Sadly I most spread the rep points around.

[Rick]

AS - I would strongly urge you to have a physical if you have not already done so. Vision problems can be related to a number of causes besides just your eyes. High blood pressure is but one example. You might find if treated that your vision could be normal or near normal. Of course, age is another cause. Things are getting farther and farther away for me. My arm isn't nearly long enough anymore to put things in focus.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

AS - I would strongly urge you to have a physical if you have not already done so. Vision problems can be related to a number of causes besides just your eyes. High blood pressure is but one example. You might find if treated that your vision could be normal or near normal. Of course, age is another cause. Things are getting farther and farther away for me. My arm isn't nearly long enough anymore to put things in focus.

Doctors just see the dollar signs when looking at me. I'm required to pass physicals for work and have union benifits. I have seen them make guys get every unneccessary operation they have and you have no choice because you need them to sign off to return to work. They will operate on a guy until benifits are used up and he's full of screws and hooked on pharmicutical drugs. They will even call the cops on people whos lives they have ruined when they are digging through thier dumpster to make a card board sign. Most guys I know just wait till they retire to get everything fixed.

[2dumb2kwit]

Doctors just see the dollar signs when looking at me. I'm required to pass physicals for work and have union benifits. I have seen them make guys get every unneccessary operation they have and you have no choice because you need them to sign off to return to work. They will operate on a guy until benifits are used up and he's full of screws and hooked on pharmicutical drugs. They will even call the cops on people whos lives they have ruined when they are digging through thier dumpster to make a card board sign. Most guys I know just wait till they retire to get everything fixed.

Another thing that can cause it, is blood sugar being out of whack. It's none of my business, but that can be checked without a doctors involvement. Don't take this the wrong way, but I hope it's just the years catching up to you. Diabetes ain't no joke, if not controlled.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I don't worry about it that much. If it gets worse I'll buy a shotgun and shoot at what I can hear out of my good ear.

[Rick]

Remind me to call before I come over.