How hard would it be for you?

[BENESSE]

I think on a level playing field then all animals are animals. However, you also have to sprinkle in a modicum of delusion on the human animal. We have a fair share of crazies that come to power in places every now and then. That changes the whole landscape.

It sure does.
Are we justified in "harvesting" them?

[Rick]

Oh, sure. We find them in spider holes all the time.

[DOGMAN]

So to take your previous line of thought to it's logical conclusion, we should tolerate or even encourage school yard bullying since it exists in nature and we're all animals after all. So why discourage the instinct, right?

Animals do that because they don't have a conscious choice nor do they have a sense of right and wrong--they act on instinct. In this respect we have evolved or else we wouldn't have the laws we do and we wouldn't be horrified when we hear about murderers, child-molesters and rapists.
We'd just chalk it up to our animal nature and learn to live in hell.
My mind and my sensibilities just work differently. When and if I find myself in the Lord Of The Flies situation (yeah, I read the book and saw the movie) I'm sure my innate animal instincts might kick in. Until then I'll just work on being a better human.

No, we shouldn't tolerate school yard bullying, murder or rape...because we can create rules to live harmoniously. Rules and laws should be cut and dry (however they are not) but they can be....however morals and ethics are always a real grey area. morals and ethics are flexible and are subjective and cause inner turmoil because of all the contradictions.....Thou shalt not kill....now thats a commandment....but its alright to break it if your at war for your country.....but, its not alright to break it if your a street gang defending your corner to deal drugs....we may think we have a moral compass, and live ethically...but if you really look at our societies actions as a whole- we go around doing what every other species does...we are merely struggling to survive and trying to perpetuate our kind.

Next, How do you know animals don't have a sense of right and wrong? I fundamentally disagree with that....watch wolves in the wild, or watch domesticated dogs in my yard- they definetly know right from wrong...in their own language and with their own kind...with their own definitions of right and wrong....animals speak through body language fluently and can tell one another for sure whats right or wrong. All you have to do is watch them, and you can see that they do lots of things that aren't just driven by instincts.

I know alot of psychology books like to theorize that animals only act on instinct....but, that is just a bunch of BS written by people who don't spend much time with animals outside of labratories, and they are still brainwashed from the Judeo-Christian mindset of man being superior to other animals. Adam and Eve getting kicked out of the Garden of Eden, is basically just the story of mankind trying to seperate themselves from Nature...but, its bunk...we are not seperate from Nature- we are nature, and we are animals...

[wildWoman]

No, we shouldn't tolerate school yard bullying, murder or rape...because we can create rules to live harmoniously. Rules and laws should be cut and dry (however they are not) but they can be....however morals and ethics are always a real grey area. morals and ethics are flexible and are subjective and cause inner turmoil because of all the contradictions.....Thou shalt not kill....now thats a commandment....but its alright to break it if your at war for your country.....but, its not alright to break it if your a street gang defending your corner to deal drugs....we may think we have a moral compass, and live ethically...but if you really look at our societies actions as a whole- we go around doing what every other species does...we are merely struggling to survive and trying to perpetuate our kind.

Next, How do you know animals don't have a sense of right and wrong? I fundamentally disagree with that....watch wolves in the wild, or watch domesticated dogs in my yard- they definetly know right from wrong...in their own language and with their own kind...with their own definitions of right and wrong....animals speak through body language fluently and can tell one another for sure whats right or wrong. All you have to do is watch them, and you can see that they do lots of things that aren't just driven by instincts.

I know alot of psychology books like to theorize that animals only act on instinct....but, that is just a bunch of BS written by people who don't spend much time with animals outside of labratories, and they are still brainwashed from the Judeo-Christian mindset of man being superior to other animals. Adam and Eve getting kicked out of the Garden of Eden, is basically just the story of mankind trying to seperate themselves from Nature...but, its bunk...we are not seperate from Nature- we are nature, and we are animals...

I agree with your last two points but to me, that still doesn't quite answer if other animals have a moral and ethical view of the world in the sense of humans. Shouldn't the wolves then persecute those wolves that went wild among the sheep and shouldn't one bear slap the other one on the wrist for just eating the brain of a salmon?
I don't agree that humans are exclusively struggling to survive and multiply. What about treehuggers like me who choose to be childless? What advantage to your personal survival is it to do volunteer work when you could spend the time making money and bolstering your own bank account? Why bother to nurse an injured animal back to health? Why fight industrial development in wilderness areas when it would create jobs and thereby aid in survival?

I think your notion of us being animals is a bit too simple. I do agree we're animals, but you can't discount these things I just mentioned that are part of the human makeup too and that objectively only make survival harder for people who are volunteering or getting their butts whipped for speaking out.

[your_comforting_company]

... How hard would it be for you to kill an animal for food and tools, if you haven't before?

I have never hunted and really don't want to.
I don't want to take an animal's life, but I do want to know the process of it in case I had to. Shot placement, gutting, skinning, quartering, bone and tendon usage, etc. to make the most of the kill. So for those of you who have never hunted, how do you think you would do on your first time? For those of you who have hunted, pretend as you haven't and have never been shown how, and then follow up by how you would correct those mistakes you may make with the skills you now know.

I believe mine would be a lot of trial and error guesswork with a lot of the loss of meat, hide, and tendons. Everything I know about this process is by reading on the internet which is a poor substitute to the real thing. ..., I would not hunt to keep from going hungry, but to hunt to keep my freezer full. I'd rather a surplus of tough meat rather than a deficient amount of tender meat.

You know what. I hunted today. 5 does walked out on me and I could feel and hear every beat of my heart. I waited as patiently and as still as I could. I waited for the best possible shot.
Immediately as I calmly squeezed the trigger, I heard the bang and began to shiver.

To take a wild animals life is a thing I can never seem to level myself with. It disturbs me and it's as if I can feel the world shift a little.

I read the OP but none of the comments afterward, but I thought now would be a good time to say my piece. uninfluenced by the thoughts of others.

I still felt disturbed by taking that does life, somehow. I'm not starving, although it is for my foodstores and it will be eaten.. banked assets. but it never fails, I get ice cold after I shoot. sure, it was 30 degrees, but I had plenty of layers on and I was about 1 degree from bursting into flames just before I pulled the trigger.. but the instant the bullet went off..

I found that doe right where she should have been and commenced to dragging her the half mile out of the woods.

To answer the question, whether it's the first time or the hundredth time, it still takes a few minutes to come back. Since it is for food and not for pride, I will take a clean shot if given the opportunity, but I never enjoy it. It is human nature to "survive" and even a person who is against killing, after reaching a certain stage of hunger, would take an animals life to stay alive. food is food. there are no "pet" chickens or squirrels when that belly starts growling.

I am against killing for pride and glory, and I never condone the taking of a life in vain. For me at least, it is all a matter of ethics, necessity, and opportunity.

Now that I've put two in the freezer, I think I'll put up my gun and take my camera instead/also. If I can get within distance to take a decent shot with that nikon, I KNOW I'll be within Marlin range. Your camera might even have the spot-thingy in the viewfinder.. put the crosshairs on the lungs and snap. broadside, right behind the shoulder, or base of the skull.
be sure to post the pics!

There are surely enough hunters around that you could practice all you've read on a friend's deer. Offer to skin and quarter one for them for free. You can't swing a dead cat by the tail around here without hitting somebody who hunts... and most of them waste most of the deer..
I sometimes offer free skinning and quartering just for the skin and brain and leg bones.. the junk noone wants.

I remember my first time. I wanted to use more and waste less of the deer. It drove me to be who I am today. Shaped a lot of my views... that first "kill". I didn't enjoy that one either.. kinda regretted it and wished I'd have just kept watching.
On that same note, if I hadn't harvested some deer last year, there would have been a couple skimpy suppers this year...

I hope I answered the questions appropriately.

I'd like to point out that the internet is a valuable tool. I was shown by folks who callously and very incompassionately butchered a deer, somewhat like wolves.. almost degrading. What I know about all the stuff I do is from books and research on the internet.
It's hunting season now. find a hunter. get him to take you with your camera. If he does get to harvest a deer, help process it and keep his "trash", using all the skills you've read about. Nothing quite like "boots in the field" to learn a lesson.

[DOGMAN]

I agree with your last two points but to me, that still doesn't quite answer if other animals have a moral and ethical view of the world in the sense of humans. Shouldn't the wolves then persecute those wolves that went wild among the sheep and shouldn't one bear slap the other one on the wrist for just eating the brain of a salmon?
I don't agree that humans are exclusively struggling to survive and multiply. What about treehuggers like me who choose to be childless? What advantage to your personal survival is it to do volunteer work when you could spend the time making money and bolstering your own bank account? Why bother to nurse an injured animal back to health? Why fight industrial development in wilderness areas when it would create jobs and thereby aid in survival?

I think your notion of us being animals is a bit too simple. I do agree we're animals, but you can't discount these things I just mentioned that are part of the human makeup too and that objectively only make survival harder for people who are volunteering or getting their butts whipped for speaking out.

I think your looking to microscopic...your looking at yourself as an individual...there is way more to survival of our species than the immediate meeting of needs (bank accounts and $$$)

obviously you believe that humans need a connection to nature and wild places to thrive...so, ultimately in order for our species to survive and have a better life we need to protect our home, we need to limit our demand on resources...so, not having a child and working to protect and save wild places is your direct action to save the home of our species which will possibly ensure our survival

[wildWoman]

so, ultimately in order for our species to survive and have a better life we need to protect our home, we need to limit our demand on resources...

Exactly. And now please explain to me how you can tell that other animal species have a moral and ethical world view like this that makes them renounce a number of things their instincts tell them they need, and behave in ways that are atypical for their species, in a belief that this atypical behaviour is for the greater good of the planet.

[BENESSE]

Rules and laws should be cut and dry (however they are not) but they can be
They are in some countries. In Saudi Arabia for instance, if you steal, they'll chop your hand off, if you murder, your head--in a public square. In Iran, a woman can be stoned to death for infidelity (not a man!) if only one eyewitness (has to be a man) says she did it. In some Islamic countries a man can divorce his wife by literally saying 3 times: I divorce you. That's it.
In our own country, in some states, consenting adults can be prosecuted for having a homosexual relationship. People can be prosecuted for attempting suicide or assisting a terminally ill person do it. It's not all cut and dry Dogman, and it really shouldn't be, no matter how much we'd like to see it happen in some cases.
Precisely because...
....however morals and ethics are always a real grey area. morals and ethics are flexible and are subjective and cause inner turmoil because of all the contradictions.....Thou shalt not kill....now thats a commandment....but its alright to break it if your at war for your country.....but, its not alright to break it if your a street gang defending your corner to deal drugs....we may think we have a moral compass, and live ethically
That's the goal, that's what we teach our children and we all recognize a moral compass when we see it. In people who do the right thing even when it's not convenient, who put others above themselves who give their lives for a cause bigger than them.
...but if you really look at our societies actions as a whole- we go around doing what every other species does...we are merely struggling to survive and trying to perpetuate our kind.
That may be the absolute lowest common denominator but when have we ever settled for that? We wouldn't be where we are if that were enough.
Next, How do you know animals don't have a sense of right and wrong? I fundamentally disagree with that....watch wolves in the wild, or watch domesticated dogs in my yard- they definetly know right from wrong...in their own language and with their own kind...with their own definitions of right and wrong....animals speak through body language fluently and can tell one another for sure whats right or wrong. All you have to do is watch them, and you can see that they do lots of things that aren't just driven by instincts.
I believe that but I just don't think it comes from a conscious thought process--which is why I don't think animals are inherently evil the way humans can be.
I know alot of psychology books like to theorize that animals only act on instinct....but, that is just a bunch of BS written by people who don't spend much time with animals outside of labratories, and they are still brainwashed from the Judeo-Christian mindset of man being superior to other animals. Adam and Eve getting kicked out of the Garden of Eden, is basically just the story of mankind trying to seperate themselves from Nature...but, its bunk...we are not seperate from Nature- we are nature, and we are animals...

We are only superior because we think, and inferior when we act like animals without thinking.
We cannot un-ring the bell of evolution and progress of thought, and disregard the mighty responsibility it has given us as human beings to protect, preserve, and cherish the Nature we are all part of.