Just curious. Did you weight the pack when you were finish. After 7 days your water and food weight would have diminished and your pack should have been lighter.Originally Posted by kyratshooter
It like carrying wood to your fire pit. You carry the wood that is further away first, so as you get tired you have less distance to go.
Surivial is just an unplanned adventure when you are prepared
Well, after I left the Army, I used to have 2 med. ALICE packs (1 for DW) loaded with all the usual gear (food, water, navigation, NBC, meds, etc.) which I estimate around 40lbs each w/o weapons and ammo. But, and this is the big but I was young and dumb.
About 13 yrs ago I realized the foolishness of my plans or lack thereof. My BOB devolved into a security blanket and nothing more, so I got rid of it and adopted an entirely new survival mind-set. My mobile bug-out strategy has evolved over the years as my physical abilities decline and my threat assessment changed with the times. I started with the minimalist motorcycle/atv mindset, progressed to a light weight tactical vehicle (1/4 ton) and finally what I consider an urban stealth rig (a pop-up camper pulled by an inocuous high MPG/range tow vehicle.) Like Harry Calahan said in the movies, "A man has got to know his limits." I realistically rejected the "romantic" notion of the glory of eternal youth and accepted not only the physical limitations of me and my family, but planned on maximizing our chances for a long-term survival scenario, including establishing mobile communities allowing use of the principle of specalization to maintain some form of a trading civilization that could quickly disolve, go to ground and reassemble to reduce the chance of becoming a target of an aggressor force.
To make a long story short, our 80lbs of BOB capacity have evolved into a fully mobile long-term survival shelter capable of carrying and storing several hundreds of lbs of survival essentials, including extra food, fuel and water, as well as many basic tools, luxury, comfort, safety and hygene items.
Chip
I weigh all my options with an electronic fish scale. Weighs up to 50 pounds and scale reads in hundreths of a pound. there are other scales in ounces and metric but I don't use them. Good conversation piece around the fishing hole too although it really does not matter how much a fish weighs. It does cut some of the fish stories down to size.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
I have the exact same scale AS! Does work well to cut the BS and has officiated a few tourneys. I never weighed my pack just used it....
Keep in mind the problem may be extremely complicated, though the "Fix" is often simple...
"Teaching a child to fish is the "original" introduction to all that is wild." CS
"How can you tell a story that has no end?" Doc Carlson
A pack that has everything to include the kitchen sink has not been well thought out. Heavy packs only serve as a bonus for anyone that finds you and regardless of how ammo & camo prep'd you think you are, there is ALWAYS someone BETTER than you and Murphy works in such a way that you will either find them or they you at the worse possible moment.
My BOB weighs in at exactly 12 lbs (3 people for up to 2 weeks w/o re-supply). It is the knowledge I take with me that will have us survive. Pre-planned back woods routes with way points inbetween with small caches laid and mapped to get from point "A" to point "H" with the way points being B, C, D, E, F, G on three different but interchangeable very out of the way routes and destination(s) including alts. These are not trails, they are just well laid out routes that avoid mass transit or civil controlled directions.
Do I need an EBR (Evil Black Rifle) or a SIG, Glock or any other buzz worded firearm........Noooooooo, they will only draw attention to yourself. Do I advocate weapons, yes, what kind is my concern not anyone elses. I/we fully K.I.S.S'd our entire plan as trained to do and have actually worked and used them a few times to learn of kinks, issues & location of obsticals, taking notes that things change and often. This was done fully with thoughts of pressure points, someone following or running into people on the way by accident. We have fallback positions, re-routes as well as hold points that can be implemented at a moments notice. Many details I have left out here, but it is what we have done for US.
Is this paranoid, no, by all means no. It is being prep'd for human and mother nature. It is no difference than buying insurance on your home, car and health. It is just a form of self insurance.
The basics and the knowledge of your packs full use is what in my opinion a person or group needs to survive. I do not advocate electronics or smart gadgets as they tend to fail or need power where there is none at the worse moment.
After all of this blabbering.... YOUR pack needs to be made for you and yours, what you think you need and put in it, fully needs to be done for you and yours. If you lack the resource to gather foods and water, then yes, you need to take it with you. If you lack the ability to protect yourself and yours w/o 3 guns, grenades and their ammo or accessories, then by all means, take them with you. The more gear you take is just more gear that can fail in my opinion and having simple fall backs for failed gear is just as important as having the main gear in the first place.
Knowledge..... more than gear is what you should take with you. Planning rather than running amuk with 50-60 pounds of gear is where you need to be at. Going bright or subdued, truly a personal decision. Knowing how to do both in an instant I think is more important.
Where we live and our routes to get to where we are going are full of wild/domestic food, water, shelter and safety in the multitudes (back ups to back ups), so there is no need to take those items with me or us.
The two basic things you need, no matter what..... is a good knife and/or the knowedge to know how to make them expediently and the knowedge or gear to make fire. After that, all gear is a luxury. With those two items you can have food, water, fire, shelter, comfort and safety.
All of the above IMHO. ..................Learn it, Plan it, Work it and adjust as needed.
I prepare for all of it. That preparation includes training and thorough testing of both myself and gear. I have been getting help from guys trained in SERE methods. One thing I recently incorporated from there philosphy is an on person kit and always on you so it won't get seperated from you. This is mine.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
I then have a "Just in case" kit. I use it on casual day hikes but not knowing what can happen I have the bare minimum for my survival at that same time not wanting to load myself down with gear to enjoy my hike. It weighs in at 4.84 pounds and can be worn over shoulder, on belt or lashed to a pack.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
My serious LBE kit is and has been tested for all 4 seasons. I work with it weekly. It weighs 9.34 pounds and capable of indefinate survival through the seasons. If I'm to live with just what I can carry this is it
Being worn at -35
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
Thrown off for a short break on the River at 20 degrees
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
And I carry a small stuff sack to strap excess clothing on back in warmer weather.
Well I may be the odd one out, but most kits I have seen don't provide for the thing we need most urgently - clean air. I can go without food for weeks, water for days, but how hong can you hold your breath? If there is a chemical spill from a plant/rail/or truck accident, or a deliberate chemical/biological attack what will you do without a gas mask (w/extra filters) for everyone in your family? Does your mask have eyeglass inserts to drive and shoot? Many predict the next terrorist attack will either be of this nature, or will be a radiological attack from targeting a nuclear power plant or from a dirty bomb. Are you ready from the fallout of a direct nuclear strike? Can you say Ahmadinejad or Kim Jung Il? Don't think this is a likely enough scenario to prepare for? How about tear gas or pepper spray during a riot control situation? What if you need to go through an area where such crowd dispersants are in use? I'm sure everyone is watching news lately - nuff said. Do you have a MOPP suit in your bag? How about potassium iodide, atropine or decon supplies? Some survivalists have or can easily make chemical weapons. How close a group can you hold, or how well can you drive with pepper spray swelling your eyes shut? And this is the least you will have to contend with. Will you be ready?
One can't be absolutely prepared for every contingency, especially with a small BOB, however when I believed in them, mine had all of the above preparations. I can find the means to make fire and find a knife, maybe even make a field expedient MOPP suit, etc. (though my kit had these preparations) however, do you want to try to make a field expedient gas mask while holding your breath? Just a different perspective.
Chip
I'm sorry but unless you've been specifically trained in the use, care and storage of a gas mask then it's simply false hope. What is the life span of your filters and how often do you change them out? Do you have facial hair? There is a LOT more to gas masks than just buying one and putting it on. When I worked outside one of the areas we covered was a petroleum refinery. Since I was the low guy on the totem pole I had to work it and I have to keep a clean face and I had to go through all the training for gas masks.
Did you know that unless you have a positive atmosphere inside your mask the rubber seals can pass certain gasses? Yeah, they go right through the rubber like it wasn't even there. That's why firefighters have a positive atmosphere on their tanks. They used to be demand until a bunch of New York firemen found out the hard way the rubber seals don't necessarily seal. Gas masks included.
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
Yes I agree, like any piece of specialty survival equipment, it is worthless unless you are properly trained in its use. I think that 9 years in the Army (left as a Capt.), going through frequent gas mask drills and even conducting NBC training qualifys me to operate one. In fact, I still have my old protective mask card in my wallet (along with my old weapons card.)
I have the M-15 Israeli model. The civilian model comes in child sizes. The infant model uses a positive pressure container, but it's pricy and hard to find. I like the Israeli design because it uses the std. NATO filters. (The newer NATO masks have drinking tubes too.) I keep 2 sealed filters on hand per mask. Un-opened they will last 10 years or longer (they are guaranteed for 5yrs from the date stamped on the filter, but in reality will last much longer, just at slightly reduced efficiency of the activated charcoal, reducing the time you can remain exposed, which shouldn't be an issue). After opening, they're good for about 6 months, depending on storage conditions. Obviously there are different filters for different agents, however the general filter (green ring) is best for overall use, not the one designed for blood agents (red ring.) Do not get the black ring filters as they are designed for tear gas training only - unless that's what you perceive the threat to be.
As you correctly stated, the seal is the most important thing. That's why everyone should go through a tear gas chamber to test the seal and effectiveness of their mask. There are different sizes and styles so you should see which fits you best. Yes, I try to stay clean shaven - a 1/4" beard may prevent your mask from sealing. You do keep a razor and soap in your bug out kit, don't you? BTW did you know you can go to a pharmacy and get an ana-kit (basically a atropine self injector similar in function to the military nerve agent antidote.) Just tell them that you are allergic to bee stings and you want to replace your old unit.
Chip
Gas masks are probably a worthy consideration in LA but I won't need them here. I don't carry a snake bite kit either. Your environment determines a lot of what you carry.
Sorry Sushi, but a gas mask requires dang near a NEW filter every 24 hours of constant use, especially in a high contaminated area. I am very familure with the typical M-15 as well as other masks from around the world to include the USA's. You do NOT test it by going through a gas house, you test it via a testing liquid that turns to a banana or other flavor/smell gas. Each filter if you are getting REAL filters will come with the testing liquid. It takes approx 20 successful on and offs of the SAME mask to become proficient in their use.
IF you are in a possible zone for a chemical/bio attack and need a mask, then you better get the proper training on its use, regardless of what mask you get. Even if you have good military training.
You will need a new filter for each 24 hour time. That is under perfect conditions. I am not sure if you are carrying a suitcase for a BOB or not, but those filters take up mega room, weight and precious time to use. If you are trying to qwell a mental fear, sure, grab a mask and a tyvek suit, but for the most part, they will be unusable. If you are below the rank of a City Mayor, do not even think resupply will be available.
If you think that in an emergency, general public announcement, you are DRIVING anywhere, you truly are kidding yourself. Both Katrina and Texas proved that theory WRONG, does not matter if you have an 4x4, ATV, horse or motorcycle (motorcycle being the most viable way to avoide the crowds), a horse will be just as suceptable to the same bio/chem/nuke agents as you are. Shanks Mare (on your feet), will be the only viable way out and using that, you will NOT be able to do more than 10-15 miles a day with a loaded pack over 20 pounds unless you are in PERFECT health and condition.
The Atropine NEEDS a valid script, although not a bad idea to have a set in your BOB. They are NOT free and you cannot just walk up to a pharmacy and get one... you need a valid script and also a script that will cover you for at least a year to manage expiration dates. They will not just hand you one because you say you used one and needs replaced w/o a script.
I am NOT a huge believer in prep for Nuke/chemical/Bio attack. By the time you find out that those types of attacks may have happened, you are already exposed, especially for chem/bio. It can be going on right now or 5 days ago and NOBODY knows until the ER's fill up. In a dirty bomb attack, the amount of radiation sent into the wind is NOT enough to really harm you, it will be used as a scare/panic tactic. The actual explosion will do more hard damage than the dirty nuke radiation will do. Are you going to have the use of a decon shower.... how will you pack that, even the suits are not all that small and easy to use w/o proper training. If you are thinking a Tyvek coverall, then you better worry about the O2 supply as well.....NOT a gas mask. At the very best, grab some HIGH quality surgical masks (the purple ones, not the white or blue ones) for a bio.
FACTS, not fiction will be what saves you. Planning and sensible prep will be what saves you, NOT time and use sensitive gear. There is a reason most realists (not survivalists) do not grab this gear up. Weight, actual use, time sensitive gear and the likely hood of actual successful use is very slim at best. Do NOT do what the military and authorities are doing, they are headed into the fight, you need to get away from it.
Spend the money and time on water prep, not air prep. It is much easier to poison mass amounts of water and food supplies undetected than it is to poison air. Worry about the major few incidents and not the minor many. Water, food and curing medicines are truly what you need to worry about and at that, the most efficient for YOU to manage.
I am NOT attacking YOU, I am attacking and disagreeing with your thinking/planning and sense of likely hood of those scenarios actually happening and the FACT bases you are using.
I will agree with Atropine and anti-bios like Cipro to have with you, low space, low weight and both easy to administer in an emergency (even the IV meds) as long as you keep track of the expiration dates and rotations, especially for Atropine.
Plan your route to get out of dodge and how you will do it... all roads will be closed to either actual traffic jams or closed by authorties to try and direct traffic where they want it to go.... even the back roads. READ actual evac plans for your local, state and fed and then see where you fit. Also remember the 2 million other people that are thinking the exact same thing you are. Go to calguns.com for a hearty laugh if you are in Cali, AZ, NV, Oregon.... as those 10 million people will all be headed the same way with all their evil black guns. You will realize FAST that you need a UNIQUE plan, not the same plan to get out of dodge like everyone else has. If you think sewers, safety/interment camps.... rail lines and especially air travel.... so has those 10 million folks. Same goes for MOST large city areas. If you think rural canyons and caves, be preparred to share them with many other people (Katrina Dome). Same goes for National and state parks, they will be tent cities with each group there having an EBR and the buzz guns of glocks, HK and Sigs and most will have itchy trigger fingers.
Sorry to rant here, it is just when people say their plan includes a vehicle out of town because all the gear they plan to carry is too much to carry by shanks mare, it almost makes me mad & sick to my stomach as that plan is FUBAR before it even starts and you and yours will die or get seriously hurt trying to impliment it.
What do I have planned... well that is my business and is only shared with fam and friends.
Steps off my soap box, grabs a milkshake and stops ranting.......
Bugging out by vehicle will work as long as it's done before things get bad. I'm kind of surprized the cities are not emptying out now. With so many ways this can go anybody making claims it is going be this way and only think that way can be wrong a 1000 different ways.
You are very correct AS..........if the typical survivalist waits, he/she will be SOL. So many variables it is not even funny.
The plan is to move the lower 48 to Alaska in case of an event. Do you have an extra room?
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
Thanks for your different perspective, Ohiogrizzlapp. I'm posting here just to give some others my perspective. Maybe they will increase their chance at surviving more that the immediate few days/weeks after an event. As I said before, I don't believe in using a BOB. It is not adequate for my families needs. BTW I am a Katrina survivor. Yes it did take me 3 times as long to evacuate using my vehicle cause I waited too long because of work, (I evecuated for Gustav too) but I was still able to cover 500 miles on the interstate (a foolish choice in retrospect, which I didn't use on return - as parts were blocked or destroyed) but I was still able to cover over 500 miles in under 12 hours including taking family, pets, and a quarter ton of survival gear. Could you do that on foot? How about burdened with a family, and all the baggage that brings? What if you or a famliy member are disabled and can't ambulate for long distances? Will you just leave them behind?
A agree that your survival plans depends on your threat assessment, largely determined by where you live. We have chemical plants/oil refineries and storage facilities everywhere as well as ship loads of chemicals being carried up the river. This is not to mention all the chemical trucks on the highways and train loads of chemicals criss crossing everywhere. Maybe some would like to turn a blind eye to the threat, but if I were a terrorist, one of these would surely be my target. As far as the life of the filter, I don't plan on breaking out a new filter and using it just long enough to evac the area, maybe an hour at most, so filter life is irrelavent. That's why I said that shelf life is not an issue for me. Unlike military ops, which I am very familiar withmy mission is to DD to safety, not conduct mil. operations in a contaminated area. Yes, my bug-out camper has a shower which can be used for decon. My family (including 3 pets) lived in it for a week during Gustov - a real survival scenario (not to mention numerous 1-2 wk camping trips,) so yes, I have tested my plans. Have you "camped" in a tent in the mountains indefinately where it rained every day and froze every night while people were trying to kill you? I have, and believe me, I don't want to live that way again. I might survive such a scenario, but it is unlikely my family would. "A man has to know his limitations." and I'll add the limitations imposed upon you by others who are dependent on you. Do you have elderly parents or grandparents you are responsible for, how about children, infants or pets? Do any have medical problems or health issues? All these things need to be taken into consideration when making practical survival plans.
As far as testing your mask, I know there's the right way, the wrong way and the Army way. Your way may be better in a lab, but I know mine works in the field, cause I've used it. Why argue the best way to test a mask if you don't even have one? That's like arguing which rifle is better when you only have a slingshot? The best survival gear is what you have, are practiced with and are confident in its use and limitations.
Come to mention it, the first time I got an Ana-kit I had a script, but I merely plunked my old container on the druggists counter for a no question asked replacement when it expired. They say you need a precsription for many things these days, but I'm sure many don't. (Though I'm certainly not advocating or condoning any illegal activity.) Funny you chould mention Cipro and other antibiodics. They are illegal to possess and use without a script as well. See previous disclaimer. I certainly don't possess anything even remotely illegal.
Having a unique evac plan is important, but not as important as having an evac plan that actually works - protecting your family long-term, ultimately enabling you to prosper at some point, not just live another day. Just try running away from a hurrinace on foot and let me know how well that works out for you. IMHO I'm sure that in this free land we can agree to disagree and still get along. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong. I'm comfortable with my choices. When I make mistakes, (as I have for over half a century) I try to learn from them and improve. My plans continue to evolve the longer I live. Arrogance can be fatal.
Chip
I am disabled to the life lessosn I have received and I fend for myself. Less reliance on gear, more reliance on knowledge. Yes, I have stayed in cold as well as hot places, places that you would not even dream of. Sad to say I and the others with me had no tent or 70lb packs to rely on and yes the weather crapped on us........for weeks at a time.
If you are comfy with more gear than knowledge or even more gear with knowledge, then so be it.
My way of testing masks were in the field and it is the propper way if the threat is real.
To be honest, I am a cold heart and realistic.... if someone attached to me were disabled and could NOT fend for themselves in a REAL scenario, then yes "Left Behind" is a kind way to put it I guess. I will not have domestic animals with me, they will get you killed or worse. I do not rely on a group or combined knowledge.
I have seen and been part of many evacs in a few countries. I have read the evac plans for my city, state and feds for my area. They are unrealistic and unworkable as they are now. Mostly because they expect people to do what they say.
Like I said, I was not KNOCKING you, but was knocking the unrealistic plan and ideas you laid out. At some point, YOU run out of masks/filters, relying on them in the first place is not a good plan. Did you plan for rubber eating agents in the attack materials.... MOST modern "Agents" have anti-poly agents in them along with the actual bio/chem being spread. A company called "Ruther Mold," in Akron Ohio (current Mfg for USA, Canada and some other ally countries Gas Masks) did a study on some of the anti-poly agents and at best, the masks from 17 countries (we also tested our enemies masks) being currently used and supplied to our and their military will last 3 HOURS, not days. They turn into crumbs and powder.
I will leave it alone for you and keep the knowledge I have..... I just really think your plans and ideas are not sound and will cause deaths, rather than save lives.
If you cannot survive with a really basic BOB.....that honestly makes me sad for you and yours that are depending on you.
Good Luck and hope it all works out for you & yours and I really mean that.
If you get a chance, read a book called "Out of the Ashes," by William W. Johnstone, just the first book, not the rest of the series, early printing if you can find one......maybe that will rattle some trees for you.
Depends how much stuff you are bringing.
@OGL...
Different strokes for different folks. The destination is survival, how we get there will have to be the way we know best.
Last edited by BENESSE; 02-18-2011 at 03:15 PM.
I Absolutely Agree! I think people will be surprized how much of what they already know will give them a solid foundation to figure out the rest. You never cease to amaze me how many things you know I had to figure out the hard way over the coarse of my life. You're a natural survivor Bennesse.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks